Gameday Thread, #152: 9/18 vs. Giants
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Had to pop in to the supermarket on the way home, so not much time to get this posted. It's the battle of the mediocre here, with neither starter having got past three innings in their previous outing. Indeed, Micah Owings hasn't gone that far this month - a disappointment after an August where he made six starts with a 3.03 ERA. Rumblings abound once more concerning his position in the rotation, and another bad outing could mean he may find himself in the #5 spot currently occupied by The Paramedic.
Any chance of a win tonight, guys? It'd be really helpful, especially as St. Louis are ahead of the Phillies (though after yesterday, no lead will ever seem safe in that series), and the Dodgers have dropped the first game of their double-header in Coors. This could, therefore, prove to be a valuable change to gain some breathing space: a good pitching performance and some hits with runners in scoring position, against a starter we beat last Wednesday, would certainly be a help in that regard.
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Must-win
Oh, there's a chance of a win
Lineup
- E Byrnes LF (.291)
- J Upton RF (.231)
- C Jackson 1B (.279)
- M Reynolds 3B (.268)
- C Young CF (.234)
- C Snyder C (.253)
- A Callaspo 2B (.207)
- A Ojeda SS (.259)
- M Owings (.288)
Not Bad
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
We need a win tonight!
by DiamondbacksWIn on Sep 18, 2007 9:43 PM EDT reply actions
O'Dog
Tonight's lineup
On the other hand...
But I'd switch Callaspo and Ojeda, for sure.
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Out of the inning with a double play
Upton vs Byrnes
Jupton is inferior.
Good start
Can ya'll transcribe?
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
We often seem to win the ones
Batting
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 9:51 PM EDT reply actions
Holy cow!
As I'm in the library studying,
Typical Eric Byrnes at-bat
And.....
Is it me
by DiamondbacksWIn on Sep 18, 2007 9:54 PM EDT reply actions
stealing is a crime
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 9:54 PM EDT reply actions
CoJack!
So....
We need a win...if only so I dont fear reading the baseball news at work tomorrow :)
runs
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 9:58 PM EDT reply actions
Come on
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 9:59 PM EDT reply actions
could have been better
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 10:00 PM EDT reply actions
Well.... a run is a run.
man
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 10:02 PM EDT reply actions
really
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 10:03 PM EDT reply actions
Goddammit!!!
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Decorum?
Decorum works, anyway?
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Protocol
by victor frankenstein on Sep 18, 2007 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think
by Jim McLennan on Sep 18, 2007 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
3-1 count on Alberto Freaking Callaspo??
Um.... he didn't?
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
darn Padres
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 10:06 PM EDT reply actions
According to gameday...
By the way....
Obviously
How is that not overmanaging? How can you not think this team could have a few more wins if we put this kind of lineup out there every day & a chance to get to 95 instead of 90? Would this team have scored fewer runs for another manager; doubtful & why I feel that he is adequate does not deserve manager of the year. I know how...close minded people. Enjoy the my rambling of the day...at least I'm not at work on the weekends & you guys get a break...LOL.
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:08 PM EDT reply actions
Though it must be said...
by Jim McLennan on Sep 18, 2007 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
actually
by andrewinnewyork on Sep 18, 2007 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
More baserunning blunders
We gave that inning to Sanchez. Two of his outs were a caught-stealing and a rundown.
Even worse
I don't think so,
Maybe I'm just giving BoMel the benefit of the doubt because hit and running in that situation just seems colossally stupid. Of course, I may just be biased against hit and running in general after hearing a few too many rants against it by Carlos Gomez (ChadBradfordWannabe).
I coculd be wrong
A big walk by
Heh, even though I disagree with it, I'm beginning to think that NQRFPT is a better nickname than Option J.
Yeah, but dahlian....
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Molina
Way to go Augie!!
Trivia Note from Mr. Sutton
Damn the Molinas!! Full speed ahead.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought...
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope
Uno dos tres.
HAHAHA Giants pitching change already.
For the Giants
Except for their new closer
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, the guy with the 1.something ERA
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Just go to McCovey Chronicles
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Why travel?
by victor frankenstein on Sep 18, 2007 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Take two (I'd like to)
by victor frankenstein on Sep 18, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks!
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Micah
Doesn't it seem like he has to be treated like Pedro & almost be a 5 inning pitcher especially with all the relievers we have now. He just doesn't seem to have the stamina. I think his ERA would be almost cut in half if he was pulled an inning or 2 earlier instead of Melvin trying to push him to 100 pitches every single time out when he always struggled when his number hit around 80. I'm just wondering if it's been my imagination.
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know...
He's had some real good 7-inning starts though..
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
You have NO freaking clue what you're talking bout
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, c'mon, he's got a point
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think it's just fatigue
It's very possible that is part of Micah's problem though.
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't argue any of that
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
It's possible that since this is his first year
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Sanchez was fatigued!
by victor frankenstein on Sep 18, 2007 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't have a clue
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's keep the decorum
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
ROTFLAMWHGKOMGBBQ @ cj
If it were about the pitcher getting tired, you'd expect to see a general plateau then a steep climb in OBA, rather than a consistent upturn.
Sincerely,
="The Joke"
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Pushover
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
"To show players revved up"
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
SNAKECHARMER
Oh that's right my response is too long for you to read & you can't understand my English...that's why you won't respond. LOL
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
ROFLMFAOATASOHH @ CJ LOL!!!111!!!oneone!!!
Actually, I already responded. Look before you leap occasionally, will you?
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I was very surprised
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
"Ferdinand The Duck..."
by victor frankenstein on Sep 18, 2007 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Ignorance
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, cj....
It's not fatigue, so much as he's got a very limited arsenal, and batters start to figure that out over time. The only pitchers who can really get by on two pitches are power pitchers, a la Randy Johnson's fastball and slider.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Good for you
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Pwnings lives up to his nickname again.
Double for Owings
Argh!!
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
If you'd stop studying
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Brynes needs a day off
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 10:18 PM EDT reply actions
Passed ball.
y is Bay batting sixth
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 10:20 PM EDT reply actions
This is what I'm talking about a guy on third
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 10:21 PM EDT reply actions
I went to cook pasta!
Enjoy it while you can.
by victor frankenstein on Sep 18, 2007 10:23 PM EDT reply actions
O rly?
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
O rly a
Annually!
by victor frankenstein on Sep 18, 2007 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Pausing...
Mets lose!
by DiamondbacksWIn on Sep 18, 2007 10:24 PM EDT reply actions
can we talk, I dont know....
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 10:30 PM EDT reply actions
do they want to waste pitchers
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 10:31 PM EDT reply actions
3 pitchers in the first 3 innings and 2 ph's
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 10:31 PM EDT reply actions
we are only winning by 4
by Pigpen Fan on Sep 18, 2007 10:33 PM EDT reply actions
Are you at your email?
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh.... I'll take down my away msg now,
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Whisky Tango Foxtrot, Chris Young
Sorry, I just had to leave my dinner for a moment to say that. I'm going back to eating now. :-)
Did anyone notice...
Not quite perfect
been lurking
by seton hall snake pit on Sep 18, 2007 10:48 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's drive it out, Micah!!
Next AB. Right Micah?
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Upton in RF
Wow....
51 pitches, 33 strikes, 18 balls.
THAT'S efficiency.
Help
Snakepit quick reference guide is
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Snakepit 101
It's pretty far down the right sidebar.
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks!
Hmmm.... interesting
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Nicely obscurist :-)
Not heard of it, but then, growing up in Britain, we had three channels...
by Jim McLennan on Sep 18, 2007 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Micah
I also note
by Jim McLennan on Sep 18, 2007 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Then again.....
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Good AB for Schierholtz,
Lineup
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 11:02 PM EDT reply actions
Might I direct you to that diary...
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course...
by Jim McLennan on Sep 18, 2007 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
As some of us think
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you really need a reason why...
How about we have the lowest team BA in the NL?
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Errr....
Good catch
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yah, I changed it immediately
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Told you
by Jim McLennan on Sep 18, 2007 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
That was my thought.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Pedro Feliz with the double...
Micah has a 2-hitter through 5. (Remembering the series in Washington)
I'm only going off the gameday feed...
Yep
by Jim McLennan on Sep 18, 2007 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh very
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Phillies tied, bottom of the ninth
This is the Micah we know and love
Leave it to the Giants to instill confidence
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice outing so far
Home run for Reynolds!
Mark Reynolds is a monster.....
Special K!!!
Last nights game
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 11:19 PM EDT reply actions
You have a right
I think it shows an abundance of talent and options for our lineup. It's nice to know when guys have bad nights, they can easily be substituted for.
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
You're entitled to believe whatever you want.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Additionally....
So, if anything, that's a sign of depth.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, a real answer
Seriously? You think we should have pinch hit for Drew, Salazar, and Clark? Clark has the best (non-Micah Owings) slugging average on the team, Salazar is #4 on the team in batting average, excepting Owings and players on the DL, and Drew- well, Drew... Unless you meant Byrnes in there for one of them, which makes even less sense.
I see pinch-hitting for Drew, but I can see reasons for leaving the other three in there.
Anything?
Yeah
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Deja vu
Aargh
Sigh...
by Jim McLennan on Sep 18, 2007 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh my....
Guys, be careful. This isn't the PADRES, after all...
What is Callaspo thinking tonight??
It's like someone told him that he doesn't suck.
Wow.... Mets have now lost five straight
Usually with something like this,
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I love O'Dog
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
They asked him the Aflac trivia question
by Jim McLennan on Sep 18, 2007 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Getting ANY runs off Saito is impressive.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Except it was..
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
And go Cardinals!
Colorado 3, Dodgers 1.
Keep beating the Dodgers!! Now if we could only get the Bucs to oblige, as well....
3 to 1 was Game 1
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, good call. Thanks.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Even better
I said they were the team I considered to be t
Hmmm....
Tie game again
by Jim McLennan on Sep 18, 2007 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Tied
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, great outing
Me... sorta?
"Well...
I wasn't saying that we don't have a chance, but Micah's last couple outings haven't been so hot. He'll either go for 6 innings and allow 1 run, or for 3 innings and allow 4 runs. That's just how he is.
As for me, I'm hoping for the former. I still think we have what it takes to win the division, or if not, certainly the wild card.
Come on, Sandy Baby, loosen up. You're too tight.
by DbacksSkins on Tue Sep 18, 2007 at 12:15:05 PM PDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ] (delete)"
Okay, okay, so I hedged my bets. And I didn't say 8th, I said 6th.... but still. ;-)
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah the guy with the crystal ball
by cj060896 on Sep 18, 2007 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
This, coming from the guy
Can we say "complete game shutout"?
by DbacksSkins on Sep 19, 2007 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you enjoy being cross?
If you were
by unnamedDBacksfan on Sep 19, 2007 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I say yes
by snakecharmer on Sep 18, 2007 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I was just discussing that with snakecharmer.
BoMel's history says he'll more than likely allow Micah to try to finish the game.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 18, 2007 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure it's good for his ego,
There really isn't anything gained by having him go out there for another inning. It's a five run game. Just about any person in the bullpen could finish this game easily.
Sometimes it's the job of the manager to look a young kid in the eye and say "I know you really want this kid, but it's in the best interest of the team for you to take a seat now". He's a big boy. His ego can take it.
No,I think any time we can rest
It's a five run lead.
here are fifteen pitchers on this roster. They don't all need to be rested. Pena, Valverde and Lyon - yes, but they aren't the only people on this team capable of holding a five run lead for an inning.
It's just an unnecessary risk. This is minor as nitpicks go, but the sort of thing that unchecked can devastate a rotation in the long term.
And I have a feeling...
But you can't not let a young pitcher go out for the 9th, when he's got a shutout going, especially when he's at 91 pitches through 8.
BoMel's done the same thing with Brandon Webb this year. Turnabout is fair play.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 19, 2007 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Why?
In baseball you have a roster of 25+ hungry players that want to be out there every play. Sometimes the manager has to make the tough decision and sit a guy even though they're doing well. That's life. Owings can just suck it up and go out there again in five days and try to repeat his performance.
And of course, BoMel has taken this route with Webb several times this year. It's one thing to leave your ace in their for the ninth when he's at ninety pitches and it's a close ball game - but some of those complete games (and others 100+ pitch outings) came with leads of three runs or more.
Sure it's easy to just leave him out there, but was it best for the team in the long run. I don't know, how's Webb been doing his last few starts. He doesn't seem to be showing any signs of wearing down or anything, does he?
His pitch count was low,he was hitting his spots
You don't have to use the bullpen regulars
His pitch count wasn't obscenely high, but look at how much Owings improved with a little bit more rest. Doesn't it make sense to at least continue trying to get him as much rest as possible?
And his confidence, seriously? Do you think so little of Owings mental state he's not mature enough to sit down and take a rest once the game is out of reach? He just pitched eight scoreless innings, if that's not enough to boost his confidence than I don't know what is.
And how come it's ok to harm the confidence of Upton by not letting him stay in late in a five run game, but for Owings it's too much? These are grown men - Bob Melvin shouldn't have to indulge them like children when there's a significant chance that what they want now, may not be in their best interest down the road.
Um....
Dahlian, the state of mind of a pitcher is much, much more important than the state of mind of a fielder. Generally, fielding is more dependent on instinct and muscle memory than a "state of mind." (Although if you're distracted, that's different)
Pitching is all about state of mind, confidence in your ability and your quiver of pitches, etc. You'll very rarely hear anyone around baseball talk about "confidence" in the case of a fielder, but you'll hear it all the time with regards to pitchers.
Besides, I have a feeling that BoMel pulling NQRFPT, Mr. "Potential" himself, could have had just as much to do with the fact that he went ohfer the game.
Might I direct your attention to your own post?
Secondly, you leave your pitcher out there to reward what he's done for you so far, because he's earned it. Micah earned it by going through 8 innings and mowing down the Giants. It's that kind of rigid, management-by-rote style that ran Buck Showalter out of town.
Finally, WHY would you pull Pwnings at all?? He's not only pitching on extra rest, but through 8 innings, he'd only thrown 91 freaking pitches. That's less than he usually throws through 6. Pitch count is more important than innings pitched to a starter's arm.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 19, 2007 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you serious?
I'm saying that if it's a close game and the best pitcher on your staff is out there on a roll you should leave him in because he provides the best chance for winning that ballgame. But if it's a lead of three or more runs you should pull him for the ninth inning and save his arm.
How is that being inconsistent? This game obviously fits into that latter category, and unfortunately many of Webb's 100+ pitch outings do as well. In both cases it's completely unnecessary to leave your starter in there. The marginal gain you get from his performance is negligible when you have so many runs to play with.
It's all cost-benefit analysis. You don't want to extend your ace if you don't have, but sometimes you do have to. Hopefully, if he's managed correctly those rare few instances when he needs to pushed won't catch up with him. But when you make a habit of letting him repeatedly go long because you want to "reward" him, then you just set him up for a September collapse just like what Webb is experiencing now.
Just one question about your argument, for now...
It's not too many,
It's reasonable as pitch counts go, but it's nice to give be able to give your starters an early rest in the blowouts to save their arm for those games down the road when it may be crucial for them to go a little deeper in games.
It's a long baseball season. I believe it's best to give your starters a little lighter workload whenever possible, because if you keep going to well in blowouts like this, then eventually you're going to come to a big game, with a narrow lead and you're going to want your starting pitcher to be able to go 115-120 strong pitches, but he won't be able to because he pitched so many of these stupid mop up innings that Jailen Pegeuro would have been just as well throwing in - you know, to build [i]his[/i] confidence up.
If the starter pitcher doesn't have the confidence
Additionally, I KEEP trying to tell you, if you want to make the html work, you have to use "<>" rather than "[]".
In general
Plus after the nightmare of last night, where Peña gave up five runs on seventeen pitches... :-(
by Jim McLennan on Sep 19, 2007 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't get me started on PAP
But it's close. I'm not saying this is a huge deal, but this a tendency of BoMel's that I do find somewhat disconcerting. My philosophy is just that pitchers are like batteries. They use up so much charge every outing and then are slowly recharged in their off days. Usually this evens out, but sometimes they'll have a short game that lets them make up ground and sometimes they'll have a long game that puts them even further in the negative.
I would like for my starters to be saved whenever possible to give them a net positive to preemptively make up for any long outings that could be more necessary in the future.
Sure, I have no real evidence to back any of that up, but at the very least, it's no less arbitrary that pitcher abuse points.
BoMel agrees about pitcher confidence...
"''You could see his confidence come back around the third or fourth inning,'' Melvin said. ''He realized, 'I know what I'm doing again.'''"
Yeah,
What does the ninth inning have to do with that? If he had his confidence back already, what's the point in pushing him the extra inning?
Because more confidence never hurts,
Ah yes, the slippery slope card -
You're making it sound like throwing 101 pitches in a game of major league baseball is a walk in the park. That's all additional, unnecessary stress on an arm.
You also completely ignore what that opportunity for "building confidence" could have meant to to all the other young pitchers on this staff. Were in the middle of a pennant race with a shaky rotation. This was an opportunity for us to give a young guy like Nippert or Petit to work in a rare low leverage situation to establish their own confidence and another opportunity for the coaching staff to evaluate their ability to get major league hitters out. Every single game we're not sure if our starting pitcher is even going to make it past four innings and I'd rather they have a chance to "build up their confidence" now than in the fifth inning of a 5-4 ball game after the Hernandez just got pulled.
Think of all of MCAA (Marginal Confidence Above Average) lost! I think the boost of an eight inning shutout to a nine inning shut out is less than the amount of confidence gained by giving a rook another chance to show his mettle.
You're missing the point.
The point is, it's not just a question of pitching enough scoreless innings. It's a question of allowing Micah to finish what he starts, like the great pitchers always do. Why did BoMel allow Webby to stay in the game during the scoreless inning streak? Why did BoMel allow him to throw 3 complete games in a row? Because he earned that right, just as Micah earned the right tonight.
There's a good chance the Dbacks will be in other games over this home stretch when they will have leads, and those would be fine times to let Piggy or DNip or the Petit Unit have a go. But the Dbacks aren't likely to have a starter pitch another 2 hitter. This was Micah's game, and it's not fair to let another guy steal his thunder.
Let's examine your contention about Micah's fatigue. He already had a fresh arm coming in tonight, since he last pitched on the 8th, 10 days ago, and only threw 65 pitches, and before that, he threw 44 on the 3rd. Even including tonight's 101 pitch game, that's still only an average of 70 pitches in his last 3 games. That's VERY low for a starter. Add in the fact that over that time period, most pitchers would have thrown 4 games rather than three, and THEN factor in the fact that he threw a total of 210 pitches over 20 days.
Finally, what the heck kind of damage is another 10 pitches going to do? You really think the ten pitches Micah threw during the 9th are going to have any measurable fatigue effect for his next time out? Come on now. Steve Busby was throwing 200 pitches per game when he tore his shoulder. That's a pretty far cry from 91 or 101, especially when Micah's still averaging lower than that.
This isn't just a BoMel thing, or a Dbacks thing. 99.9% of MLB managers in history leave Micah out there for the 9th, and of those 0.1% that don't? None of them ever won so much as their division.
Also...
You're reading far too much
I said earlier that of course Micah wanted to go out. Every single player on that roster wants to got out there every game. It's the manager's job to say no in the best interests of the team.
Reading in far too much? Not at all.
When Livan Hernandez has given up 8 hits, 4 walks, and 3 runs, in the 6th, and is actually cashed, and everyone in the stadium knows it, and BoMel asks him, "Livan, do you think you can go out for another inning?" And he says, "You're goddamned right I can. It's what I do," THAT'S the manager pushing the player, even though Livan DOES want the ball. However, Livan knows when he's at his limit, and would have given it up willingly.
But when it's Micah Owings, the rookie, and he doesn't have a complete game shutout in his life, and it's the end of the 8th, and he's only thrown 91 pitches, and he's retired the last 10 straight batters, and only allowed 2 hitters and a walk the entire game, you'd BETTER believe that Micah is pushing BoMel to let him go back out. Not only that, but it's generally accepted in baseball that when a guy is having a game like that, you LET him go back out. You're going to have to get a pair of pliers to pry his fingers off the ball, and if you DO that, if you don't give Micah his chance to finish the shutout, there's going to be at least a twinge of disappointment or even resentment from Micah, and certainly some players in that clubhouse are going to agree.
Imagine you have a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle, and you take breaks every once in awhile. Well, after you've put 888 of the pieces together, you take a break, and come back to find out that someone else finished the puzzle FOR you. Well, that was sure nice of them, wasn't it? After all, ultimately, the goal was to finish the puzzle, right? Plus, now you have more time and less mental fatigue to start on another one.
I don't know about you, dahlian, but I'd be pissed.
There was no reason to pull Micah, and no good manager would have done so.
I'm fine with it
I don't feel his problems are fatigue-related. He pitched 162 innings last year, and even after the complete game today, he's only at 151.2 (including his one start for Tucson). In addition, he threw 44 and 65 pitches his last two outings, and skipped his last start (it was replaced by a simulated game), so he hasn't really been overtaxed.
I think, sending him out there for the ninth is a good boost to his confidence, and that's what I was more concerned about after his last couple of outings. This is a huge boost for Owings' morale, and will hopefully be repaid in his final start.
by Jim McLennan on Sep 19, 2007 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
What's the difference
I'll have to respectfully disagree on the issue of whether his issues are fatigue related: when you go two straight starts giving up a total of twelve runs in 5 2/3 against the vaunted offenses of San Diego and St. Louis late in the season during your rookie year I begin to wonder. When it takes skipping your next start and having to take a couple more days of rest before you can right the ship, then I'm just about convinced that fatigue is a big part of the problem.
He may have thrown 162 innings last year, but throwing in the minors doesn't provide nearly as much stress on the arm as throwing in the majors does.
I'd be intrigued to look up his number last year to see if there was any downward, but I have no idea where I would find those numbers.
There's a BIG difference.
It's a BIG difference psychologically/mentally. In fact, it's a whole stat by itself: the complete game. In fact, one of the knocks against Jake Peavy this year is the fact that he hasn't had any complete games all year.
Micah's never pitched a complete game shutout before, at any level. You don't think that MEANS something to him, that he was able to do it tonight?
It's not a big difference,
He's not stupid. If he gets pulled after this, he knows that it's only because he had a big lead. He knows that he easily could have down it himself, but that it wasn't necessary. A stupid "CG" on a stat sheet doesn't change any of that.
If that's seriously what Owings thinks, then I think it's time to dispel him of such childish notions.
Stupid or not,
Would you pull him in the 8th if he were pitching a no-hitter? Either 1. you're heartless and you'll say yes, or 2. you'll say no, but it's different. Why is it different?
There are a lot of pitchers
No argument there.
Ask, and ye shall receive
Normally, I'd agree with you that there wouldn't be much difference between eight scoreless innings and nine - except, this was Micah's first ever complete-game shutout, at any level. That's quite a big deal for any pitcher: Brandon Webb only did it once in his first 105 starts, up until May last year.
I also note that Owings' first complete-game, earlier on the year, came directly on the heels of perhaps his worst performance, a 2.2 innings, seven earned run outing, against the "vaunted offense" of, er, Pittsburgh. :-) And that horror came a) back in May, and b) after his turn in the rotation had been skipped, so fatigue was not an issue there.
by Jim McLennan on Sep 19, 2007 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm...
I can't help but think of
In both cases it's like they need this shiny stat to be dangled out in front of them to give meaning to their performance.
Oh well, at least Byrnes' former team agrees with my opinion. Had Buccholz gone a few more pitches they during his no-hitter they would have pulled him. Now that would have been something.
Although, I should note - in that instance I would have been in favor of leaving him in. But a complete game shutout, it's nice, but come on. Owings is still one shutout behind Jeff Weaver on the season.
Hopefully...
I don't think CG is anywhere near as much a BS stat as saves: indeed, in these days of specialized relievers, it's become more impressive. Basically, it's saying, that in the ninth inning, you were the best option for your team, and that's no small fear.
by Jim McLennan on Sep 19, 2007 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
It says that,
It's impressive, but that alone doesn't mean that it's a net benefit. If anything it just shows one of the failings of statistics. Had Owings been pulled I don't think that would have diminished his start and its significance in any way. The only thing that would change is that it wouldn't have this nifty new statistic next to it that separates it from an eight inning shut out start.
It's just a vanity statistic and it's only superficially impressive. It means this one game that Owings had the stuff to go nine innings, but that says very little about his capabilities as a pitcher. Weaver and Owings both have more shut outs than Peavy, but Peavy still throws more innings per start than them both. A shutout doesn't change that. It's more impressive to do it over many starts, for many innings.
Being able to go out there and throw a mop up inning with a five run lead isn't a great feat in and of itself, but in this case it's being treated as if it makes all the difference in the world between success and failure.
Ok Mr. Almanac...
Regarding the fatigue vs. minimal pitch repertoire argument, I have no idea which he has been struggling with. I guess only he and BoMel know but both you and Skins, and cj make good arguments. At first, I thought it might be fatigue but then it could be his limited pitches. Maybe it is just being a rookie and learning how to outsmart the opponent? I'm sure the MLB is far different than AA or AAA and he was playing college ball only 27 months ago. I cringe when he has a bad night but I always chalk that up to experience. I always say that if you have never failed at anything than you have never really succeeded either. Hopefully, his bad outings will be the fertilizer, if you will, for future great ones. I still believe he has quite a future.
Not me
Wasn't it just yesterday...
Oh , you were correctly referring to us...
C'mon by , Skins , we're drunk.
And it sure ain't with power.
by victor frankenstein on Sep 18, 2007 11:51 PM EDT reply actions
I guess I should have come by earlier.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 19, 2007 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
D-Backs on Today Show tomorrow
Ok, this seems to prove my theory
If the Giants win tonight, I'm never coming back. ;-)
K
Owings!
Was that what this team needs or what?
GO MICAH!!!!!!
Last 13 in a row
2 hits, 1 walk. One over the minimum.
His FIRST shutout at any level!
Ouch
Very, very good
Guys, guys.....
Upcoming games
Saturday's is
~ Tribune
by snakecharmer on Sep 19, 2007 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
And yes...
by snakecharmer on Sep 19, 2007 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
What a damned shame.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 19, 2007 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Is it just me...
He's done that a few times this year.
dang
by Mr. Philosophical on Sep 19, 2007 12:26 AM EDT reply actions
So, to get to October baseball
delicious
by Mr. Philosophical on Sep 19, 2007 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, hey...
by DbacksSkins on Sep 19, 2007 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Only 7 posts to go
And if I'm off tomorrow it's because I've promised to go out and drink a lot of beer with a friend coming up to Manchester.
Well, ya got yer wish.
by DbacksSkins on Sep 19, 2007 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Eh
Err....
by DbacksSkins on Sep 19, 2007 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Right
The wink?
Nope
One of my friends came across it somewhere- it's listed on the Wikipedia article, they claim it's of UK origin.
Aparently that's
No,we are permanently sarcastic or ironic ...
Wait a minute...
Im always a fan of the caps to signifiy saracasm ;)
Cards and Phillies
But San Diego wins
Less concerned there...
by Jim McLennan on Sep 19, 2007 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
True
Uh-oh
Dammit
by Jim McLennan on Sep 19, 2007 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Not too bad
Apparently, they set a National League record in that game, using 56 players...
Wow
Haha!! I certainly hope they DO botch it...
Two game notes.
- The announced attendance was 44,220. On a tuesday night, no less. Nice!!
- By going 1-2, Alberto Callaspo brought his average up from .207 to .212; likewise, with the complete game shutout, Pwnings dropped his ERA from 4.78 to 4.49.
Also
Not to mention, as has already been pointed out, since the Mets lost, (for the 5th game in a row) we're back to having the best record in the NL.
A great result
I saw through the 3rd inning but from what I've read since, outside of some baserunning errors we were pretty solid.
Its been said time and time again but the resilliance of this side is quite amazing. To come out of the blocks with 4 runs and for Micah to glide through those early innings were a great testiment to the side.
I'm not sure if we'll make the place that shall not be named. But hell it'll be 'interesting' to find out :D

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