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This is somewhat odd. The number of visitors to the site has basically doubled over the past few days. Normally, this is triggered by either a) big D'back news, or b) a link from another (more reputable) site. I'm not aware of a), and unfortunately, our SiteMeter referrals, where I check such things, is stuck showing visitors as of March 3rd, so I've no idea about b). Oh, well: wherever you came from, greeting. If you're a "n00b", as I believe the youth of today say, and want to leave a comment telling us how you heard about the SnakePit, that'd be nice. It'd make me less nervous our URL has been pinned to the board in the Tucson clubhouse...probably by Hairston. 8-)

Melvin has been addressing the lineup issue again, though as Nick Piecoro points out, more by saying how it won't look. Tracy won't hit fourth, and now, Drew won't bat leadoff. It's becoming more like a game of Clue than anything. The news it isn't Drew [in the library, with a candlestick...] will disappoint the 31% of SnakePit readers who voted him, at time of writing, as the best choice, just ahead of Chris Young. Piecoro reckons Hudson (third, on 26%, in our poll) is the most likely to fill the spot. Eric Byrnes, meanwhile, languishes in joint-last place with just 6% of the vote.

Shoewizard drew my attention to this article on Hardball Times, reviewing the lineup construction rules in The Book, which read, "Your three best hitters should bat somewhere in the #1, #2 and #4 slots. Your fourth- and fifth-best hitters should occupy the #3 and #5 slots. The #1 and #2 slots will have players with more walks than those in the #4 and #5 slots. From slot #6 through #9, put the players in descending order of quality."

Okay, so it's been shown that lineup construction is not enormously significant: the difference in results from an optimal order and the very worst is only about one more run every six games. Still, using those rules, and the average OPS stats from yesterday's entry, what do we see? Three best hitters would be Quentin, Young and Tracy, in that order, going by OPS, with Jackson and Drew behind them, then it's Byrnes, Hudson and Snyder. I would have to say Quentin and Tracy are more likely to get on-base than Young - though in Q's case, a good number of the "walks" may leave bruises. That gives us the potential following lineup:

  1. RF - Quentin, R
  2. 3B - Tracy, L
  3. SS - Drew, L
  4. CF - Young, R
  5. 1B - Jackson, R
  6. LF - Byrnes, R
  7. 2B - Hudson, S
  8. C - Snyder, R
  9. Pitcher

Looks not bad; maybe we should swap Jackson and Drew around, to break up the three right-handers in a row? Though the 'serving suggestion' above does somewhat echo Melvin's thoughts about Drew: "He can hit anywhere in the lineup and down the road he could be a (#3 hitter). So whether down the road is a year, a month, a week..." Of course, the lineup doesn't take into account batter RHP/LHP splits, which are worth taking into account, or batter-pitcher matchups - beloved by Melvin, but rarely are there enough recent plate-appearances to make those significant. I've a feeling we will see about the same 112 different lineups used by Melvin last year.

Certainly, if Byrnes was auditioning for the #1 spot today, it did not exactly go well: 0-for-2 with a pair of K's. He did get a walk though, and came round to score; I also note, interestingly, he was playing CF today, Young getting the day off. A good comeback from AZ: we were 4-0 down by the middle of the third, but used a seven-run fifth to turn things around, and added two more in the eighth after the Angels had made it a one-run game again. Final score, 10-7 to Arizona: Hammock went 2-for-2 with a three-run homer, and Montero went 2-for-3.

Scary moment in the third, when starter Doug Davis was hit on the left arm by a sharp comebacker, leading off the third. He left the game, but is expected to make his next scheduled start. He had given up three hits and a walk by that point, and ended up allowing three earned runs. Elliott relieved him for the rest of the third, and Nippert then got the win for two perfect innings of work. Daigle, Slaten, Peguero and Peña followed, with varying effectiveness, but again, I was pleased to note the healthy K:BB ratio of 9:1 put up by our pitchers.

Another step forward for Randy Johnson, after a 55-pitch bullpen session Wednesday. "I'm not worried about my back any more. Not that I ever was, but when I go out there now and get the ball I try to do what I've done throughout my career, throw strikes and get batters out. Tonight it will get a little stiff, and it works its way out. It's building tolerance." Next step, probably at least two sessions of batting practice, before he'll be ready to take the hill in an actual game.

Interesting wrinkle in the lineup, with the news that Callaspo may do some time in the outfield, once the roster becomes a more manageable size. The aim here is, apparently, to use the switch-hitting Alberto, to give us a few more options in the outfield. At the moment, DaVanon (injured) and Krynzel (out of options) are the only outfielders capable of batting left-handed, if the need arises. I'm thinking we may see many more situational moves this year, making use of the positional flexibility provided by Hammock, Callaspo, etc.

It seems like FoxSports.com has become the Diamondbacks' version of Pravda, pumping out glowing reports with almost-suspicious frequency. johngordonma drew our attention to this one, which says our prospects "are the talk of the Cactus League", calls Carlos Gonzalez "a bigger, stronger, left-handed hitting version of Carlos Beltran," (!) and quotes Josh Byrnes as saying Hairston's chances of appearing on the waiver wire are "zero percent." That's the kind of thing it's a pleasure to read [especially when I left my coffee in the car...which Mrs. SnakePit has just driven off in!]

It also says Dave Krynzel, "looks stronger than he did with the Brewers," and hints at a possible trade with the Marlins. Florida also need relief help, so rumblings are circulating about something like Krynzel, Julio and cash to them. Word at DBBP is we'd be looking for a couple of high-ceiling rotation prospects, an area in which the Marlins are loaded. Be nice if we could parlay Krynzel, basically a throw-in for the Estrada trade, into anything significant.

Finally, we have a runner-up in the contest for Nausea-Inducing Story of Spring-Training: the winner there, of course, being "Huge Manatee pitches three perfect innings for Gnats". Nick Piecoro tells us that, "Players and staff pooled together $5,000 for rookie catcher Josh Ford if he could eat 40 hardboiled eggs in an hour before the game against the Rangers. Ford came close. He put down 38 1/2 of them before he, uh, had to stop. It sounded like most of his teammates were going to pay up anyway." Presumably by sliding the cash under the firmly-closed door of the locker-room. All together now: "What we've got here, is failure to communicate..."

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Platoon Splits
I think ideally you have to take platoon splits into account, and look at who is starting that day against your lineup.

If a lefty was starting, of course Tracy would not be one of the better hitters, in fact he would be the worst, and should be batting 8th against lefties....based on past history.

I wish we could see stat projections in split form. Too many of our players don't have enough track record or large enough sample size to judge properly, and last year's  Tucson splits are all out of whack, as too many of the righties had reverse splits. (Righties hitting righties far better than lefties)

by shoewizard on Mar 9, 2007 12:10 PM EST reply actions  

Conversation Between Josh Ford and the Ump
JF: Catching the ball now, boss.

Ump: Catch the ball there, Ford.

JF: Walking to the mound, boss.

Ump: Walk to the mound there, Ford.

The AP recap from Yesterday's game was really high on Robby Hammock and his position flexibility.  You can understand how Callaspo (2nd/3rd/SS and Possible LF/RF/CF) and and Hammock (C/1st/2nd/LF/RF) Make them attractive to retain on the roster vs. 1 to 2 position eligible players.

The next two weeks will probably be the most active of spring for trades and roster moves, so it'll be interesting to see where guys end up.

Final note ... D-Backs are in town for the Brewers Saturday, a potential lineup of two young teams that should be around for a few years.  Anyone going?

60 percent of the time ... it works every time ...

by npineda on Mar 9, 2007 2:17 PM EST reply actions  

Young
Bat Young 4th and this season will be 200 runs worse than last season. I project Young to not hit anymore than .250. .225 is more reasonable. It doesn't help anyone hitting Quentin leadoff. I guess Play-It-Safe wants to stunt his growth too.

by biggerunit1 on Mar 9, 2007 6:41 PM EST reply actions  

wager
I'm not a betting man, but I just might be willing to make an exception.  I just might bet my firstborn that Young hits closer to 250 than 225.  And how does hitting lead off stunt one's growth?  By teaching the batter to be patient and take pitches?  Wow.  That'd be terrible.

by johngordonma on Mar 9, 2007 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Quentin
Quentin simply is not a projected leadoff hitter. He, assuming he even becomes the projected star, is a 3/4/5 hitter. Can't learn how to hit 3/4/5 while batting 1st. You simply get different pitches. If Melvin hits him leadoff this year (which is doubtful, as Melvin assumes the day's lineup card is reason for the loss), then next year or whenever he is put in the 3/4/5 hole, he will struggle. A full season wasted b/c Play-It-Safe hit him where he never belonged. Young is the best leadoff option.

by biggerunit1 on Mar 10, 2007 1:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmm.
You want a .225 hitter leading off? I guess you really did like Tony Womack.
In my nightmares, I see Brian Bruney...make it stop...

by Azreous on Mar 10, 2007 4:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Wha?
If you hate everyone on the team, why don't you go become a Giants or a Dodgers fan?

by nihil67 on Mar 10, 2007 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

John, Ben - can't you read the sign?
"Please do not feed the trolls."
SPB

by stephen @ AZ Snakepit on Mar 10, 2007 12:20 AM EST reply actions  

Troll?
I'm afraid by definition, you're the troll here buddy.

Why can't I make a post without ignorance rolling the eyes? Because I don't answer in a jolly, gay tone? Just because I don't include excessive optimism and happiness in a post, I'm a troll?

Clearly you are not able to hold a simple discussion. I suggest you leave.

by biggerunit1 on Mar 10, 2007 1:03 AM EST up reply actions  

You do have a bit of a rep in that area...
As I recall, you got yourself banned from DBBP for calling one of the moderators there a "faggot". Also has to be said, both there and here, you do seem ceaselessly negative about the 2007 Diamondbacks in almost every aspect. I don't demand "excessive optimism" - but some evidence you actually support the team might make a nice change, occasionally! :-)

by Jim McLennan on Mar 10, 2007 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Subject lines are pointless.
And he deserved it. I tried to discuss the team and all that child did was violate THEIR OWN TOS. That guy should be banned too, but troll-central only acts irrationally to those with views more individualistic than their own. The Communist Red is getting to their head.

Second, it's hard to support a team that has no logic. Dumping individuality and distinctiveness for a 1-2 season mild increase in merchandise sales is pathetic. Preaching youth and debt, but then adding an expensive 43 y/o WHO WANTED OUT OF ARIZONA is pathetic. Adding "Old Trade Me" for millions but not bringing back the more popular player for less than what "Old Trade Me" wanted is pathetic. Trading for 5.00 ERA pitchers is pathetic. Extending Play-It-Safe Melvin is pathetic. Dumping $1 seats is pathetic. The partial name change is pathetic.

Oh, but I'm sure the "D*Backs" community have WELL thought this over, so it shouldn't be anything new to them...

right?

by biggerunit1 on Mar 10, 2007 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, now we have something to discuss. :-)
[ Dumping individuality and distinctiveness for a 1-2 season mild increase in merchandise sales is pathetic. ]

Hell, green with pink spots would be "distinctive", but wouldn't make it a good choice of colors... Purple is a horrible shade to work with: anything more than a hat just looks awful, especially for guys. The new stuff is light-years more wearable, I reckon. Your mileage may vary, but it's personal taste.

[ Preaching youth and debt, but then adding an expensive 43 y/o WHO WANTED OUT OF ARIZONA is pathetic. Adding "Old Trade Me" for millions but not bringing back the more popular player for less than what "Old Trade Me" wanted is pathetic. Trading for 5.00 ERA pitchers is pathetic. ]

This is all about RJ, so I'll combine these three. Comparing it to the Gonzo move is impossible to do: keeping Gonzo would not make the team any better, since we have younger, cheaper, better alternatives around. That isn't the case in the starting rotation: not having Johnson means 33 games from someone like Dustin Nippert. He wanted out of Arizona in 2004, and I can't blame him because Colangelo had run the franchise into the ground, going from World Series champions to 111-game losers in three years. Hell, even the Marlins never lost that many: three years after their World Series, and the fire sale which followed, they went 79-82. And this is, as you're well aware, definitely not that Diamondbacks organization.

[ Extending Play-It-Safe Melvin is pathetic. ]

On this one I, and many fans, would probably agree with you. I really don't think he's the best man for the job, and would rather see Chip Hale in the seat - after all, he did such a fabulous job, with most of the same guys, down in Tucson last year.

[ Dumping $1 seats is pathetic. ]

Never used them myself, so no great loss personally. They were a gimmick, pure and simple: I imagine few people actually stayed in those seats the entire game. If I'm right, the cheapest are now, what, $5? That's cheaper than a matinee film at Harkins, f'heavens sake. If you can't afford that, you should probably be out finding a job, not attending baseball games.

[ The partial name change is pathetic. ]

Yeah, that bothered me too, but I'm an old-school grammarian. You take letters from a word, replace them with an apostrophe, not a hyphen, dammit. But really, I can't say I've lost any sleep over that, and I'd be more inclined to go for "pointless" or "irrelevant", rather than "pathetic".

But here's a challenge for you. Now you've told us what's wrong with the team, tell us why you're still a fan...

by Jim McLennan on Mar 10, 2007 1:05 PM EST reply actions  

Reply.
[ Purple is a horrible shade to work with ]

Funny, I didn't hear any complaints about purple until the colors actually changed...

[ Keeping Gonzo would not make the team any better, since we have younger, cheaper, better alternatives around. ]

Keeping/starting Gonzo would only hurt the team if Clueless Bob kept hitting him 3rd/4th. Gonzo would make a solid 6/7 hitter. But we know he doesn't want that... but we know he won't be hitting 3/4 in LA and he knew that too. We and he know he's not going to start every game. He will probably platoon with Eithier or whoever. So why was he willing to platoon in LA but not AZ? Money. Kenny chose not to keep the aging fan favorite for $7 mil to sit on the bench. And this is a very logical thing to do... until you go and bring in someone older and for more money. So I agree that it may have been the right time to cut Gonzo if cost cutting is in mind. However if you actually are not cutting costs, then brining him back would have kept fans in the seats. Gonzo hitting 6/7 would be more productive than "Old Trade Me" giving up 5 runs each start.

[ Colangelo had run the franchise into the ground, going from World Series champions to 111-game losers in three years. ]

Colangelo didn't do that. Injuries did. The Diamondbacks had everything needed to win 90 games in 2004. They had amazing pitching coming off of 2003, which I believe is the best pitching season in team history. The only thing that kept the Dbacks from a division title in 2003 was offense, which Richie Sexson was to provide. He went down, so did the offense. And when the pitching did not perform like they did in 2003, everything fell apart.

[ If I'm right, the cheapest are now, what, $5? ]

In 2000, tickets started at $1, $4, $9, $12 i think, etc. Ticket prices have never dropped. And single game tickets have shot up so much since Colangelo, and that is pure Kenny/Mooron who want suckers to blow $1000+ on season tickets rather than a hundred give or take on a handful of single game tickets. In other words, the owners are anti-family. I mean think about it. If you have 2-3 little kids, you're not going to buy tickets for every game of the year. You're not going to want to take your kids downtown every night of the year. You're going to want to take the kids to the weekend, 1 pm games.

[ Tell us why you're still a fan ]

I'm not a fan of this Communist, Combine-like team that has completely destroyed the history and tradition of Arizona baseball. These owners, clearly without the testicular fortitude to stand up against conformists, surrendered the individuality of this ballclub in order to simply go along with everyone else, and to be just like the other teams. This just screams weakness and insecurity, terms that should not be associated with my strong, proud, hometown team that finally put a curse on the New York cursers.

I will always be a fan of the team that Colangelo built, the team that wore the more indigenous purple, turquoise, and copper, the team led by personnel who stood against those who wanted them to conform. I don't care what anyone says about them. I will never "go with the flow" as many fans have decided to do. Conformity belongs in hell.

by biggerunit1 on Mar 10, 2007 2:16 PM EST reply actions  

Back atcha!
[ Funny, I didn't hear any complaints about purple until the colors actually changed... ]

Hey, you only have broccoli, you gotta eat it. :-) Now, we have choices...

[ Kenny chose not to keep the aging fan favorite for $7 mil to sit on the bench. And this is a very logical thing to do... until you go and bring in someone older and for more money. ]

If he'd paid $8m for a 43 year-old left-fielder, I'd see your point. But the reason we didn't need Gonzo is, we had younger, cheaper better possibilities. The money saved by not paying Gonzo could then go into an area where we didn't have that luxury, such as our starting pitching. We needed to bite the bullet there in the open market, and RJ was a much better bet than someone like Gil Meche, who gets $55 million for five years, but hasn't had an ERA+ above league average since 2000.

[ In other words, the owners are anti-family. ]

Hardly - unless you reckon the owners of Harkins are as well, since it's still cheaper to get into the ballpark than to see a film. $1 tickets are not a constitutional right. :-) Certainly, prices have gone up - but that's a necessity, resulting from things like the increase in player salaries. They've basically doubled since the D-backs inaugural season in 1998.

[ I'm not a fan of this Communist, Combine-like team that has completely destroyed the history and tradition of Arizona baseball. ]

Yes: all nine years of it. I've got shoes with more "history" than the Diamondbacks. :-) [Doc Martens: love 'em!] How, exactly, have they "destroyed" said history? I still have my 2001 World Series DVD, my purple hat, and hell, even my Williams, Gonzalez and Kim jerseys. To me, things like "tradition" mean much more than the color of the jerseys; it'd take something much more drastic (like moving the franchise) to damage that.

[ I will always be a fan of the team that Colangelo built, the team that wore the more indigenous purple, turquoise, and copper, the team led by personnel who stood against those who wanted them to conform. I don't care what anyone says about them. I will never "go with the flow" as many fans have decided to do. Conformity belongs in hell. ]

A brave speech, and I do respect your beliefs, even if I largely disagree with them. Hopefully, you can do the same; preferring one color, player, or ownership strategy over another does not make anyone better or worse. Maybe ask yourself: WWJD. What Would Jerry Do? :-) Even though he's no longer attached to the organization, he doesn't go round publicly badmouthing current management, ownership or fans on a daily basis. A lesson to be learned there?

by Jim McLennan on Mar 10, 2007 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

a response
(Funny, I didn't hear any complaints about purple until the colors actually changed...)
I stated from the move to AZ in 2000 that I didn't like the colors - not on here as I wasn't a member, but the point was made on other sites.
(Keeping/starting Gonzo would only hurt the team if Clueless Bob kept hitting him 3rd/4th.)
I actually sit on the fence on this one, as I dont think the Org. dealt with the situation correctly and offering Gonzo something with a future promise of off the field work to keep him as a face for the d'backs would have been a win/win. I do believe his production was decreasing (Im too lazy to look up stats) so I guess we have to compare what we would have got from Gonzo for 7-8 Mil as against EB for his money....
(Colangelo didn't do that. Injuries did.)
One man doesnt make an offence. This was and always will be one of the worst trades Ive ever seen in baseball without getting Sexson to sign an extension. It has been well documented that JC had mortgaged the future of the franchise for a ring (something I think most would do if they could guarantee it) - I just think the slide down was more pronounced that anyone expected.
(In 2000, tickets started at $1, $4, $9, $12 i think, etc. Ticket prices have never dropped.)
Well, when we get such a thing as negative inflation then maybe it will be a decent point, but we don't... prices go up, wages go up.. thats the way of the world... Maybe one of you statistic  gurus could do a comparison on the ave price s in baseball and other sports? I am betting we wouldnt be shown as being an unusual case at all.
(I'm not a fan of this Communist, Combine-like team that has completely destroyed the history and tradition of Arizona baseball.)
Umm History????? I have shoes older than this franchise....
(I will always be a fan of the team that Colangelo built)
Sorry to say it, but that sounds like a fair weather fan statement... What JC did, like it or not, was bought a ring in the style the "Spankmees" like to try and do every year (just more successfully), without the inflow of funds to pay for it.
Heck, its like buying a house on Camelback mountain - great while you have it, but when you cant afford it, you have to handle living in the car for a few years too...

by AZDarkKnight on Mar 11, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just sayin' is all...
If I ever had to debate/attempt to interpret a website's TOS, let alone get banned from a website (one devoted to DISCUSSING BASEBALL, not, say, the best investment options for my retirement fund or something important), I would consider sitting myself down to reevaluate my life and my choices.  

Name-calling ("Old Trade Me," "Mooron," "Communist") and labeling everything "pathetic" is a poor and off-putting means of discussion.

Oh yeah, in order to make this an on-topic post:  

The Diamondbacks had everything needed to win 90 games in 2004. They had amazing pitching coming off of 2003,

Longing for the days of Casey Daigle, Steve Sparks, and Casey Fossum as the 3-4-5 starters?  Yes, so very close to 90 wins.

by TheMainMan on Mar 10, 2007 3:55 PM EST reply actions  

Numbers
Why don't you actually look at the 2003 numbers before discussing?

by biggerunit1 on Mar 10, 2007 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Numbers
[ The Diamondbacks had everything needed to win 90 games in 2004. They had amazing pitching coming off of 2003, which I believe is the best pitching season in team history. The only thing that kept the Dbacks from a division title in 2004 was offense, which Richie Sexson was to provide. He went down, so did the offense. And when the pitching did not perform like they did in 2003, everything fell apart. ]

Even in 2003, we finished 16.5 games back in the division that year: that's way more than 2005 (five games), or even 2006 (twelve). [I note that Johnson was also injured and of reduced effectiveness (18 games, a 4.26 ERA); he bounced back quite brilliantly in the next season, after being written off by some people...an omen for this year perhaps?] And our 2003 pitching ERA was 4.23, only third-best in the division, with the Giants and LA both coming in below four. We also had lower ERAs in 1999 (4.17), 2001 (4.18) and 2002 (4.16).

Moving on to 2004, I can't see any conceivable way Arizona, even with a healthy Sexson, would have won 90 games in 2004 [what I presume you mean]. While there's no arguing Sexson's injury hurt the team, I doubt his WARP was quite 39 games! I think the key to the abysmal year was dumping Schilling, in a horrible trade that still defies belief. At least in the Sexson one, we got rid of spare parts, though it did leave us putting all our eggs in one basket. But, really: putting Fossum, Sparks, Daigle and a 21-year old EdGon out as the back end of your rotation...now that is what I call pathetic.

And, lo, that foursome went 9-34 in 2004, while Schilling had an ERA+ of 150 and came second in the Cy Young. If we'd had him, RJ and Webb at the front of the rotation, we could probably have coped with Dessens and Sparks as the fourth and fifth starters.

I treasure what Colangelo did in 2001, and certainly, Az has fared much better than the D-Rays. But he only managed it by robbing the future to pay the present, and when the cash crunch came, he had to get rid of the jewels, and the results were painful. Frankly, I'm amazed how well the new ownership has done, to turn us back from 51 games, into a team where a neutral observer like Jon Heyman can say, "I truly believe the Diamondbacks can win the NL pennant."

by Jim McLennan on Mar 10, 2007 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I Think ...
We are finally in a situation where we are seeing the fruits of tradition begin.  The 2001 WS team was expensive pieces and grizzly veterans, going against the last great Yankee team before The Boss went crazy and started buying everything.  That team featured guys that had been Yankees since day 1, and most of their key moments are traced to that.  In my opinion, Brandon Webb's Cy Young last year was where we started creating a identity besides 'The Team That Robbed New York'.

Colors and the Colangelo's contributions to Arizona sports are not the only thing this franchise has.  This franchise is going to be fielding a team that features 5 or 6 everyday players that have been exclusive to the organization since the minor leagues.  I don't think any other team in the NL west can say that.

The changes of the colors make the team more marketable.  We have a distinctive identity in Phoenix (sorry, purple is the Sun's color, not the D-backs) and we stand out compared to other teams in the NL west (The Rockies had purple first, and everyone has a similar dark gray traveling uniform with accents in the primary colors).  I'm 25 years old.  Why would I want to wear the same color that the 'Red Hat Ladies' wear in public?  I know I will see more of the Sedona Red, at the very least, around my place.  How can I get excited about a color that makes my mother coo?

When I finally hear the phrase from someone at their dad's funeral of 'I'm really going to miss me and my dad going to Diamondback Games at the BOB' ... then I think we can talk about tradition.

60 percent of the time ... it works every time ...

by npineda on Mar 10, 2007 10:29 PM EST reply actions  

Well said there
with this comment from you, "In my opinion, Brandon Webb's Cy Young last year was where we started creating a identity besides 'The Team That Robbed New York'."

The tradition starts when some that have been in your organization from day one make it to the big show and shine.  Every team has rentals.  You don't build tradition on rentals.

My only comment on the color flap...  I was at the game today in maryvale. 60% of the crowd were DBack fans and the vast majority were wearing the new colors.  Nuff said, time to move on.

by unnamedDBacksfan on Mar 10, 2007 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Hear Hear
About moving on.  Either that, or let's make this a diary, i'm tired of scrolling down to find the argument :).
60 percent of the time ... it works every time ...

by npineda on Mar 11, 2007 1:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Are you serious?
[ We have a distinctive identity in Phoenix (sorry, purple is the Sun's color, not the D-backs) ]

Sorry, red is Cardinals color. Ohhh it's not 'red,' it's 'sedona red.'
Sorry, brick red is Coyotes color.

Ok, that ain't good enough for me. Let's continue with your method of thinking.

PURPLE TEAMS: Rockies, Suns, Lakers, SA Kings, Ravens, Vikings, LA Kings... 7 teams from MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL.

RED TEAMS (huge gasp of air): Thrashers*, Flames, Hurricanes, Blackhawks, Avalanche, Blue Jackets, Red Wings, Canadiens, Devils, NY Rangers, OT Senators, Coyotes, Bills, Patriots*, Texans, Titans*, Chiefs, Redskins, Falcons, Buccaneers, AZ Cardinals, 49ers, Hawks, Bulls, Cavaliers, Pistons, Warriors*, Rockets, Clippers, Heat, Bucks, Nets*, 76ers, Trail Blazers, Raptors, Red Sox, Twins, Indians, Angels, Rangers, Phillies, Braves, Nationals, STL Cardinals, Astros, Reds, Pittsburgh, CHI Cubs, Dodgers*, D-Backs...50 teams! * indicates minor use of red.

So let's review. Out of all the MLB, NBA, NHL, NFL...

teams using purple: SEVEN.. I repeat, 7
teams using red: FIFTY!!!!! I repeat, 50!!!

AND YOU'RE TELLING ME WE ARE DISTINCTIVE IN RED?!?

by biggerunit1 on Mar 11, 2007 3:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Would you Complain ...
 ... If we hung you with a new rope?

You've clearly copy and pasted better then I ever could.  After all, such distinctive usage of Pittsburgh (which holds 3 professional team, The Steelers, Pirates and Penguins, which, as far as I know, all use the Yellow and Black I am most familiar with) shows you to be much more intelligent then I ever could be.

I'm also fond of your use of the phrase 'Minor Use'.  I would indicate anything under 51 percent to be minor use, and by that math, I would say the only true colors of any sport are White, Gray and Black, the most primary colors that are used easily 60 percent of the time (A damn clear majority of professional teams use those as their home or away colors).  I would kick out any team you have used the ole * for, as incorporation of the color red with a primary color is easy.  I'm sure if I put a Black, Lime Green and Red wooden block in front of you, you could team up the Black and Red 6 out of 10 times.

Is red a common color?  Hell yes.  It's a PRIMARY FREAKING COLOR.  This happens.  It's like comparing the use of Blue and White, or Breasts and Apples.  People are going to give you that they are used a lot.

Now, going back to your comparison of Red being The coyotes and cardinals colors ... what's wrong with having a distinctive identity that binds the whole state?  As previously state, the Pittsburgh teams hold that in common.  So do the Knick's Met's, and Rangers in New York.  Patriots and Bo Sox are pretty damn similar, especially the older uniforms of the Pats.  Giants and 49'ers, Devil Rays and Marlins(SAME SPORT, MIND YOU) as well as the Dolphins, Astros and Rockets, Cowboys and Rangers.  A UNIFIED APPEARANCE CREATES A SHARED IDENTITY.

What's wrong with sharing the colors of the cardinals?  They only had the 4th best record in the NFL last year, and they sold out every game they APPEARED in.  That's 100 percent.  Perhaps that's math you can understand ...

60 percent of the time ... it works every time ...

by npineda on Mar 11, 2007 5:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Subject
Perhaps it is individualism you do not understand.

Pittsburgh is the only example I can think of where all teams share the same colors. And they don't share the most common color. What other city uses black and yellow? None. BAM. Pittsburgh has a identity.

Your argument regarding a unified appearance in Arizona is invalid. Why? Because in 1998 you had the Cardinals in red, but then the Coyotes in their better white/black, Suns purple, Diamondbacks purple. So since so few teams use purple, then clearly a most distinctive look would have favored purple. But the almighty dollar won, and transformed the Coyotes, D*Backs, and partially the Cardinals into the money craving red teams they are today. YOU KNOW that colors (logos, unis for Cards) were changed ONLY for financial gain. You really think any of these selfish owners wanted a unified color? And an Arizona LOSING COLOR nonetheless? Never.

Arizona does have a color that people do truly love. Suns purple. Ask anyone, they love their purple and orange. So why not the Diamondbacks purple? Because the TV told them not to like it.

by biggerunit1 on Mar 11, 2007 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well...
People do love the purple and orange... but only when the team is winning.  Sure, they're crazy popular right now.  Orange I like, but purple is not the greatest.

I argue this as a person who could really care less about the new color.  I don't agree with making a wholesale change on the identity of the team, but aren't there worse colors to choose from?  Like whatever colors Tampa uses?  I'd like to see more people make a fuss over the absolutely stupid lettering and logos on the new uni's.  Why can't they spell out the whole word Diamondbacks?  What's with the cheesy font?

by nihil67 on Mar 11, 2007 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

One Last Note ...
It's nice to see Phoenix fan's get passionate and have a good debate.  It ain't Yanks/BoSox, but good to see we got some piss in our Vinegar.
60 percent of the time ... it works every time ...

by npineda on Mar 11, 2007 1:11 AM EST reply actions  

Good chats, but for the sake of time....
I'll limit myself here to ticket prices.    

They [$1 seats] were a gimmick... .

Yes and no. Yes, in the 'loss leader' sense that they didnt drive revenue, but having stood in line once, I can assure you that many of the fans with me didnt consider it a gimmick. Or at least they were dam* appreciative of having that option. Often appreciative enough to bake in the sun for an hour, rather than pay for the next cheapest seat ($10 in 2006). It's interesting to try to quantify how that sort of goodwill translates on the ledger, but the new ownership has obviously made their calculation.

If I'm right, the cheapest are now, what, $5?

Well, you're not right. Not really. Not unless one pays to make a special trip to the stadium box office to make an advance ticket purchase. Good lord, who does that anymore? Hassle with the box office on gameday? There's an add on fee. For those of us with the effrontery to assume the advantages of the newfangled Internet, these crappy seats are $8.75 on diamondbacks.com, and if we're in the mood to just barely see a so-called premium game, from the absolute worst seats in a 47K seat house - $13.75 a pop..

I understand the club can charge anything they want, and hundreds of thousands of fans who used to attend Dbacks games can, and certainly do, pursue entertainment elsewhere. What bothers me almost as much as the prices themselves is the utter mendacity of pretending these are $5 seats. I'm disappointed that the nation's AGs, and I'm serious here, arent all over mlb about that. It's a wink shy of fraud, IMO.

Did I mention the crappiness of the seats? ;-)

For a good chuckle, check out the seating diagram for these clowns' demarcation between $15 "infield" reserve and these cheaper "outfield" reserve seats.)

That's cheaper than a matinee film at Harkins, f'heavens sake.

Per above, no. Let me take this opportunity to add that my wife and I took in a Harkins matinee on Monday and I can comfortably declare that we got more for our money that day than perhaps any time at BOB since Game 7 of the 2001 World Series. We saw Best Foreign Film, "The Lives of Others", and while it's probably not your kind of flick(ie minimal carnage and an actual story) ;-)...it was a powerful, memorable experience for both of us. Well worth the twelve bucks, $20 with popcorn and the drink.

If you can't afford that, you should probably be out finding a job, not attending baseball games.

wow. Hypothetically true, I suppose, but for one who snickers about boycotts and traditonal colors, dont you think this is a tad presumptuous? Pardon my lack of imagination and, indeed, rudeness, but I dont envision the day when most Phoenicians will be taking instruction on how to spend their hard earned entertainment dollars from someone who shells out $5 grand for season tickets and who works in a call center ;-)

Certainly, prices have gone up - but that's a necessity, resulting from things like the increase in player salaries. They've basically doubled since the D-backs inaugural season in 1998.

Ticket prices are a function of revenue maximizing principles like elasticity of demand(ie what the market will bear). To my knowledge, player salaries and related costs are entirely separate calculations and have no direct bearing on ticket prices.

And overall prices have more than doubled, Jim, during a period (1998-present)when the CPI increased a measly 24-27%. Credit MLB for inducing roughly half a million folks to buy season tix based on illusory "discounts", fabricated by the near tripling of ticket prices on most everyone else (100 million "less valued", or perhaps simply more discerning, fans).  

by Diamondhacks on Mar 11, 2007 6:15 AM EST reply actions  

So, what your saying is ...
The MLB, unlike ANY other industry, including the oil industry or entertainment industry, doesn't give a damn about the customers?  That they are only doing it for themselves to sustain their current earning and income level?

Wow ... Name me a successful industry that ISN'T doing that?

We all get ripped off.  You want to break it down to the basics in life, we should be paying for water, land, and the raw goods to grow food.  Alas, you have a computer your probably over pay for, an internet connection you absolutly over pay for, and free time that allows you to pontificate con completely useless issues.

If you don't like the way people are running their business, don't shop with them.

60 percent of the time ... it works every time ...

by npineda on Mar 11, 2007 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

MLB or D backs problem?
I think your beef is more with MLB in general, and not really a D Backs problem. Ticket prices  for D Backs games are still in the lower half.

(They ranked 18th in the TMR report for 2006)

http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm?page=fci_mlb2006.cfm

Meanwhile, whats the cost of a Suns ticket these days? Or a Cardinals or Coyotes ticket?

by shoewizard on Mar 11, 2007 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

The cost of living
[ $5 tickets. Well, you're not right. Not really. Not unless one pays to make a special trip to the stadium box office to make an advance ticket purchase. Good lord, who does that anymore? Hassle with the box office on gameday? There's an add on fee. For those of us with the effrontery to assume the advantages of the newfangled Internet, these crappy seats are $8.75 on diamondbacks.com, and if we're in the mood to just barely see a so-called premium game, from the absolute worst seats in a 47K seat house - $13.75 a pop.. ]

That's your choice. Specifically, your choice to go to a weekend game and your choice to buy tickets from your couch. Even if you're not among the hundreds of thousands who pass through downtown daily, if you go to more than one game a year, simply buy tickets for your next game at the stadium when you attend. Or perhaps you'd like Josh Byrnes to hand-deliver the $5 tickets to you on a silver platter? :-)

[ Hypothetically true, I suppose, but for one who snickers about boycotts and traditonal colors, dont you think this is a tad presumptuous? Pardon my lack of imagination and, indeed, rudeness, but I dont envision the day when most Phoenicians will be taking instruction on how to spend their hard earned entertainment dollars from someone who shells out $5 grand for season tickets and who works in a call center ;-) ]

Er...actually about $550 for our share of the season tickets. But the big difference is, of course, you don't hear me whining about paying $5 - or the $25 we pay. We budget for it, and don't blame the team because we can't afford to sit in the Lexus Batter's Box. As someone pointed out, compare the cheapest seats for the other major pro-sports franchises. Suns = $10, Coyotes and Cardinals = $15 [those are all also before the "facility fees" and other charges, and you can't get single-game Cards tickets]. Calling the Diamondbacks "anti family", when they have tickets available at half the price of the other teams makes no sense.

[ Ticket prices are a function of revenue maximizing principles like elasticity of demand(ie what the market will bear). To my knowledge, player salaries and related costs are entirely separate calculations and have no direct bearing on ticket prices. ]

I'm curious where this knowledge comes from. Since, surely, any business will factor all its costs in, when deciding the price of its products. And, oddly enough, more people attend major (and minor) league games than ever before. Doesn't seem like the prices are driving people away...

As someone else noted, it's good to see a passionate debate about the team. That they are capable of generating such emotion is definitely a good sign, and that's why I also welcome this kind of debate.

by Jim McLennan on Mar 11, 2007 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Answer this.
So if you believe player salaries have a direct impact on concession/ticket prices,

How can you explain that prices continue to increase even though team payroll has been decreasing for the past few years? Would a declining payroll not result in declining ticket prices if they indeed are directly related?

by biggerunit1 on Mar 11, 2007 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Simple answer...
[ How can you explain that prices continue to increase even though team payroll has been decreasing for the past few years? Would a declining payroll not result in declining ticket prices if they indeed are directly related? ]

You're right about the annual payroll declining. However, we're not just paying for the 2006 payroll. We're also paying hefty chunks, mostly of the 2001-2002 payroll, which were deferred by Colangelo. According to this NY Times report, we're budgeting around $25m this season alone for that, with a total of $100m still due. I think it's safe to say that we are actually paying out more now than than we did at the time.

by Jim McLennan on Mar 11, 2007 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Subject
Oh don't worry. Because the mission of the "D*Backs" and MLB for that matter is to assimilate into the NBA/NFL fanbase, I'm sure they will skyrocket tickets to equivalent prices. Baseball simply is not as exciting as basketball or football and for some reason MLB is all of a sudden offended by that. Americans simply don't care about baseball's tradition of being a calm, relaxing, peaceful game anymore. Americans have many problems now-a-days and impatience is one of them. Don't try to kid yourself (you in general) here, people have problems.

by biggerunit1 on Mar 11, 2007 2:23 PM EDT reply actions  

And the
color of my favorite team is the very least of my problems.  And from the looks around town, the majority of fans could care less too.
It's nice seeing the crowds at ST games getting excited watching these youngsters play.  It's nice debating other Dback fans in the stands on who should hit lead off, who should be closer, or the 5th starter.  Not once has anyone whined to me about the color change.

by unnamedDBacksfan on Mar 11, 2007 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The times, they are a-changing...

[ Baseball simply is not as exciting as basketball or football and for some reason MLB is all of a sudden offended by that. Americans simply don't care about baseball's tradition of being a calm, relaxing, peaceful game anymore. Americans have many problems now-a-days and impatience is one of them. Don't try to kid yourself (you in general) here, people have problems. ]

I do agree somewhat here. I can live without flashing signs telling me to "Get Loud". I don't need video games on the Jumbotron, or Scooter the animated baseball. And, heaven knows, I definitely can do without the zany antics of D.Baxter. But the game changes through the years, and also, much of the flashy stuff is designed to make the experience more, ah, 'kid friendly'. Which is strange, coming from an organization you reckon is "anti family". Generally, society changes, and leisure pursuits change as a result. The NBA now isn't anything like the NBA in the 50's, and it'd be optimistic, shall we say, to expect baseball to stand still either.

by Jim McLennan on Mar 11, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Cheerleaders!
I don't care if they all came from The Dream Palace and are doing pole dances on top of the dugouts.  Can anything be more lame than cheerleaders at a baseball game?

by unnamedDBacksfan on Mar 11, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Them.
I've never had a bad baseball experience until I went to a D-backs game with those cheerleaders.

Maybe just dancing would be fine, but for the love of God, keep the mic away from them!

by biggerunit1 on Mar 11, 2007 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL
Ladies and gentlemen, it seems we have achieved agreement on, at least, this one small point: cheerleaders do not belong in baseball. Now, we just have to convince the Padres and Marlins of this fact. :-)

by Jim McLennan on Mar 11, 2007 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Changes.
I would say the flashing signs are more "hockey friendly" than "kid friendly." For all we know those signs are giving more kids/people seizures.

So, was BOB family un-friendly in 1998 when it was a real ballpark and not an advertisement center?

Changes are fine until they're actually doing more harm than good, which is the case for MLB. It's well known they are losing fans at a fast rate. Many can be blamed including Bud Selig, Yankee spending, tradition killing, no salary cap, and most importantly, steroids.

I believe MLB will be gone in 30 years.

by biggerunit1 on Mar 11, 2007 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gone in 30?
Because all of the money is going to dry up?  People are going to stop watching and playing?  Can you give any reasons aside from Yankee spending and steroids for this?  I'm not seeing it.

by nihil67 on Mar 11, 2007 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reasons
People are watching less and less b/c ignorant people have been passing around the idea that "baseball is boring." So then one gullible drone picks that up and starts passing it around to the others. Soon a large number of people consider baseball boring simply b/c others told them to think that way.

The Yankee/financial situation can only get worse b/c of how stubborn players are. To initial a salary cap, I'm pretty sure the players union would have to agree, which they simply won't because god knows what they would do if Gil Meche doesn't get his lottery winnings for being worse than league average. The result here? A LONG strike. You saw what happened when the NHL went on strike for a year. They've lost MANY fans. You saw what happened when baseball went on strike in 1994. They lost MANY fans. Who knows where MLB would be now if it weren't for roid-boys Sosa and McGwire restoring interest in the game with their cheating? So could you possibly imagine what would happen with a 1 yr+ strike?

Furthermore, people are sick of steroids and MLB continues to do nothing other than add more slaps to the wrist rather than a kick to the skull. Could you imagine if in each city the star player was revealed taking steroids? How many people and kids would be crushed knowing their idol was cheating? MLB wouldn't want to lose that many people, so they, at least on their own, will not make every player test. MLB probably has some bribes in place keeping Congress from really kicking Major League ass.

People are/will get sick of the cheating, unfairness, and player selfishness. This is why other sports are becoming more attractive entertainment options.

by biggerunit1 on Mar 11, 2007 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ignorant people?
Are we in Idiocrasy and just slowly getting dumber?  Don't get me wrong, I can't wait till the machines take over and we have to learn actual skills and close walmart.  But to lump many people into ignorant in the age of streaming video, internet, and TIVO is ... well ... Ignorant.
60 percent of the time ... it works every time ...

by npineda on Mar 12, 2007 5:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ignorance.
Bush was re-elected. THERE is your ignorance.

by biggerunit1 on Mar 12, 2007 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

correction
And by "your" I do NOT mean you. I mean there is the example to prove my point about OTHERS. I did not mean to call you ignorant.

by biggerunit1 on Mar 12, 2007 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll show my ignorance ...
He wasn't even elected the first time :)
60 percent of the time ... it works every time ...

by npineda on Mar 14, 2007 5:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

In 30 years...
Professional baseball will be 168 years old, if we accept that the Reds were the first in 1869.  That's a pretty long time, and "glory years" where in a time largely without competition for the sports dollar and attention.  Now we have NBA, NFL, NHL, MLS, WNBA, Lacrosse leagues, NASCAR, IHL, and et cetera to compete for the attention of people, as well as many other entertainment options such as movies, concerts, amusement parks, television.

Let's face it, there always is a possibility that MLB could decline very sharply simply because there is so much else to do, and I don't think I would be shocked.

On the other hand, this link shows something interesting:

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/2000-03attendance.htm

Attendance slid to 2003, and has been on the rise ever since.  I also read an article that this year there is anticipation of even more people as the season tickets overall are up.  So even though I do agree with biggerunit1 and feel that the decline is likely in the face of all the competition (plus the usual complaints of too boring, too long, too expensive for good seats per games able to watch, the rich get richer [Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs] and the poor get poorer [seemingly everyone else]), right now the evidence by attendance alone seems to indicate otherwise.  

It will be interesting see how this plays out within the next decade.

by soco on Mar 11, 2007 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Subject
What are your thoughts regarding players being exposed of using steroids and a another strike?

by biggerunit1 on Mar 11, 2007 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well...
That's a funny subject.  There is a revelation that there are baseball players use performance enhancing drugs and everyone freaks out.  Largely B-Level talent (with the exception of a few) get caught and the hysteria goes higher.  Yet football is allowed to largely get away with because they seemingly had a better policy.  No one seemingly blinked an eye when Shawn Merriman was suspended for steroids, instead going to the Pro Bowl.

Baseball strikes in 94 and there is seemingly near riots, and people still talk about it, yet how often do people talk about the NFL strike in 87?  Only when they're mentioning that cheezy Keanu Reeves movie?

I don't really have an answer why there is a such a difference in attitudes between the two sports, even when they share some fans.  Perhaps it is because baseball has more of the illusion that is built on tradition and trust, and to have that yanked away is like seeing Mickey Mouse take off his head at Disneyland.  You know everything isn't what it seems but maybe people would rather live a lie that baseball harkens back to the "good ole days."

Perhaps baseball fans, though fewer than football fans, are more passionate about keeping the traditions and honor alive than football fans?  Perhaps because seemingly most of the major sports writers are baseball writers or have a baseball past, and so they feel the need to protect it more?  Perhaps its because people still look at baseball as America's pastime, America's sport, even if it isn't the most popular anymore.

Or perhaps it is none of these, it's sad news either way.

by soco on Mar 12, 2007 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ticket Talk
Ticket prices are a function of revenue maximizing principles like elasticity of demand.

I'm curious where this knowledge comes from. Since, surely, any business will factor all its costs in, when deciding the price of its products

To the extent that costs, such as player salaries, actually correlate with team performance, they could affect ticket prices; but only indirectly as spending more money on salary(or anything else) is entirely different than fielding objectively or subjectively better teams. This is painfully obvious across baseball markets and more importantly, true within a given market, year to year(see Diamondbacks 1998-present).

By contrast, the correlation between the price of, and demand for, a product is quite direct. Not constant or fixed , but direct. Whether you have a good team or bad team, good or bad GM, big market or small, revenue can be more  systematically maximized by manipulating prices than by manipulating salaries or other costs.

For example, the Dbacks lowered their so called $5 seats not in response to any payroll or cost issues but rather in an attempt to increase revenue by getting more fans in the seats with lower unit pricing. Randy's salary and the depreciation on french fry vats has little if anything to do with it ;-)

oddly enough, more people attend major (and minor) league games than ever before.

It's an interesting paradox. First, the nation's population and disposable income are both growing. Second, more clicks at the turnstiles isnt the same as more "people" in the sense of unique visitors. Instead, MLB has cultivated an army of half a million or so season ticket holders, basically the same fans lured to the park (via illusory season ticket "discounts") night after night, increasingly at the expense of casual fans. A result of this policy is that while overall "attendance is up", a smaller % of Americans identify themselves as baseball fans than ever before.  

Doesn't seem like the prices are driving people away...  

Doesnt seem that way partly because MLB and affiliates like the AZ Republic have sucessfully downplayed and diverted the issue. Look at basketball or football prices!they say.  Look at Fenway! My, how lucky we are here in Phoenix. Quit your complaining! As biggerunit suggested, however, these are apple and orange comparisons. A Dbacks game, with rare exception, is nothing at all like an NFL or Fenway game in terms of utility.

On the rare occasion when declining Dbacks attendance is broached in the Republic, prominently listed reasons typically include a)team not as good or exciting, which is just a euphemism for prices are set too high for the given product b)tertiary factors like "kids are still in school",or it's really hot in Phoenix, etc. and c)if you're lucky, maybe a brief mention that prices have inched up a tad. The really big story, that single game prices have skyrocketed 250% in the past decade while the CPI has risen one tenth that amount is generally suppressed in favor of complicit feel good stories about how season ticket holders are getting a big "discount" and other prices are "holding steady".

I think your beef is more with MLB in general, and not really a D Backs problem.

Shoe, I guess it seems that way given my remarks  but my wrath is really trifold. I dont begrudge MLB a profit or STH's a small price break for buying a package, but I do resent  the extent to which MLB has made baseball less accessible to "ordinary" fans by catering to their season ticket base with aggressively inflated single game prices.  

Similarly, fans who play along with the shell game are, in the end, the ones who make MLB's strategy work and ensure we all continue to pay high prices. To be sure, I didnt drop my ST package for the betterment of baseball - but if more people had likewise said "enough",we might all be enjoying more reasonable prices today. I find some folks' resigned attitude (ie we all get screwed anyway so what's the big deal)understandable and common, but a root cause of the problem.

Third, local ownership has done a weak job, IMO,  of connecting with the valley fan base, at least so far, in terms of pricing and several off the field decisions and public statements. Dbacks prices may be slightly below MLB average when you include cities with higher incomes, indigenous amenities and playoff caliber teams, but when one adjusts for those variables, the Diamondbacks are one of the poorer values in baseball, IMO. It's always dicey comparing markets, but Colorado(lower prices) and Anaheim(comparable prices,more expensive market) spring to mind as  regional competitors who do more to cultivate their respective fan bases.

by Diamondhacks on Mar 12, 2007 5:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Supply and Demand
I think you accurately identified baseball's marketing strategy....(it's actually pretty obvious).  It's probably a smart strategy.  As has been well covered, there are just too many entertainment dollar options nowadays.  So perhaps they feel it's better to focus their  busines strategy towards maximizing  their potential earnings with their core audiences, as opposed to taking the "populist" route.

It's debateable which strategy is better, for both the short and long term. In the end, it just comes to to personal decisions, and market forces.

I can afford to go to games, and I like to go to games, so I go to games. I am part of their "core audience".

When they win, their casual audience will swell, it's a proven fact. When they lose, it shrinks. If this team were a publicly traded stock, I would buy right now. They are continuing to pay down their debt, and 12 months from now I expect their season ticket sale trend to begin to reverse, and attendance and revenues start to climb at a faster rate in 2008.  Despite their mistakes, and there have been many, I agree, this franchise is ascendant.

by shoewizard on Mar 12, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

The work-around is simple...
Just a quick point: I didn't even get to sit-down today before getting the call... :-(

[ I dont begrudge MLB a profit or STH's a small price break for buying a package, but I do resent the extent to which MLB has made baseball less accessible to "ordinary" fans by catering to their season ticket base with aggressively inflated single game prices. ]

Do what we do and buy a share in a season-ticket package. That way, you get the lowest cost, without having to attend every game. Sure, you might not get to attend all the games you want, but assuming you're a D'backs fan [rather than the Cubs, say] and that's who you want to watch, it shouldn't be a problem. If you want to cherry-pick games, you should pay a premium for the privilege. I do think someone who purchases 81 tickets a year should receive a substantial discount over those who only buy one.

But best move further debate [copy and paste if necessary!] to the Future of Baseball diary.

by Jim McLennan on Mar 12, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions  

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