Is Joe Saunders A Volatile Pitcher?
The recent re-signing of left-hander Joe Saunders has certainly created some excitement, whether it be excitement over Joe's return, excitement over the inexpensive $6MM salary for a guy who threw 212 innings with a 3.69 ERA a year ago, or excitement over the fact that Arizona's payroll for 2012 - expected around $80MM - may be its highest since 2003. However, as with almost any move, the excitement is not universal. Amid the discussion yesterday, I came across this comment from SenSurround, which offered a valid concern on the matter of Saunders: he provides innings certainty, but does he provide quality certainty? After all, Saunders' career ERA figures by season are as follows (2005 to 2011): 7.71 (2 GS), 4.71 (13 GS), 4.44 (18 GS), 3.41 (31 GS), 4.60 (31 GS), 4.47 (33 GS), and 3.69 (33 GS). Despite a career ERA of 4.16, Saunders' closest single-season ERA to that career-average figure is the 4.44 figure from 2007 - a season in which he made just 18 starts - 28 points off of his career average. His closest full-single-season ERA (i.e. > 30 GS) to that mark is the 4.47 figure from 2009. This begs the question: just how volatile is Joe Saunders?
To tackle this question, the first goal is to break down the arbitrary endpoints of individual seasons and divide Saunders' career instead into a series of intervals that ignore the boundaries of seasons and give us more of an idea of the ERA found in a random sample of consecutive starts from Joe, rather than simply the samples of consecutive starts defined by his individual seasons.For this, I took start-by-start data for Saunders over all 161 major-league starts he's made, and split them into several series of unique intervals using seven different lengths - 20 games, 25 games, 30 games, 35 games, 40 games, 45 games, and 50 games. In other words, the 20-game set will have the following intervals: starts 1-20 (interval 1), starts 21-40 (interval 2), starts 41-60 (interval 3), et al. This should hopefully provide us with more data points around Joe's average career ERA of 4.16, and we'll simply observe how far they deviate from that average. Here's the data:
| Int. 1 | Int. 2 | Int. 3 | Int. 4 | Int. 5 | Int. 6 | Int. 7 | Int. 8 | Final Int.* | |
| 20-GS ERA | 4.49 | 4.09 | 4.12 | 3.69 | 5.20 | 4.29 | 4.29 | 3.18 | 3.37 |
| 25-GS ERA | 4.38 | 3.82 | 3.83 | 5.23 | 4.54 | 3.40 | 3.20 | ||
| 30-GS ERA | 4.48 | 3.99 | 4.47 | 4.24 | 3.74 | 3.48 | |||
| 35-GS ERA | 4.38 | 3.59 | 4.78 | 4.44 | 3.66 | ||||
| 40-GS ERA | 4.28 | 3.90 | 4.71 | 3.71 | 3.65 | ||||
| 45-GS ERA | 4.08 | 4.53 | 4.46 | 3.88 | |||||
| 50-GS ERA | 4.08 | 4.49 | 3.96 | 3.84 | |||||
| Individual Seasons | 7.71 | 4.71 | 4.44 | 3.41 | 4.60 | 4.47 | 3.69 |
*Note: Final Interval overlaps with previous interval, as Joe 20, 25, 30, etc. don't divide 161 evenly.
What can we glean from this? Well, to start, it should be fairly obvious and logical that the later groups - the 35, 40, 45, and 50-game interval groups, are all bunched closer to Joe's career ERA than his individual season figures are. After all, these groups each contain a larger number of games than any of Joe's individual seasons, so that larger sample means that the set is going to be bunched closer to his career average.
However, what is shocking to me, and perhaps somewhat insightful, is that the earlier groups - in particular the 20-game interval group - is more closely bunched around Joe's career-average ERA despite each interval being composed of fewer starts than many of Joe's individual seasons. If you discount the final interval - which is not that egregious, considering that it only differs from the eighth interval by one start - then you get a total of four out of eight intervals between the ERA range of 3.69-4.44, and another interval with an ERA of exactly 3.69. How is this significant? Well, Joe has never had a full single-season ERA within this range, despite a career ERA of 4.16, which is within this range. By shrinking the intervals of Joe's career, we find that the volatility of Joe's output seems to decrease. When looked at this way, it seems as if the individual-season endpoints are betraying Joe's consistency.
However, this is far from a conclusive result - as evidenced by the lack of a standard deviation calculation. Further, it can't be ignored that in the 20-game interval group I pointed to, there's an outlier interval of 5.20 that is higher than any full-single-season ERA of Saunders' career, so it's not an indisputable indicator of Saunders' consistency. So I went a bit deeper into this process to hopefully get more conclusive data. Here's the process:
First, I've divided Saunders' 161-start career into 130 32-game intervals, with the first interval obviously being the first 32 starts of his career, the second interval being starts 2-33, etc. This should help smooth out Saunders' career and give us a better idea of the periods in which he truly deviated from his career averages for large periods of time, and where we're simply dealing with statistical noise. Then, I plotted these 130 different "intervals" on a graph, took a mean of the data, and calculated a standard deviation. Remember, the mean of this data is different than his career average ERA because the bookend starts aren't counted as much since we are only looking at periods of consecutive starts. This is, of course, something of an imperfection in this research, but I felt it was the best way to give us a meaningful number of data points to look at.
However, ERA by itself is well-known to be misleading. Thus, I have also taken Saunders' basic peripheral rates - hits per nine innings, strikeouts per nine innings, walks per nine innings, and home runs per nine innings - over those same 32-start periods, and plotted them alongside his ERA. From here, I then checked a) how volatile the individual peripheral plots were, and b) their correlation to the ERA plot, to see how much the volatility in any of these plots may have influenced the fluctuations in Saunders' trailing 32-start ERA figures. From this, we can hopefully identify what is causing Saunders' ERA to fluctuate, and see if those fluctuations are something that D-backs fans should be worried about in 2012.
An additional bonus of doing this peripheral analysis is that it also should help us tackle the argument that individual-season endpoints have some value, in that there's is a possibility that Saunders' skillset could have greatly improved or regressed during the off-season. If this is truly the case, it should come through in the peripheral analysis, and not just in the ERA analysis.
First, here is the graph for the 32-GS trailing ERA over the 130 intervals as defined above:
The mean of this plot is 4.24217, and the standard deviation is 0.427. Under a bell curve scenario, Saunders' ERA over a random 32-start interval should be expected to be within the range of 4.24217 +/- 0.427, or one standard deviation within the mean, approximately 68% of the time. In other words, there's a pretty wide range of expectations for Joe in any given 32-start interval, from as low as ~3.8 to as high as ~4.6. However, this tells us very little as to why Saunders is volatile, and simply saying "regardless of what environment you put him in, Saunders is going to be volatile" ignores the all-important context of Saunders' career.
To build up some context, let's now take a look at Joe's individual peripheral rate plots over these same 130 intervals.
First, Hits Per Nine Innings:

Walks Per Nine Innings:
For strikeouts, we have to do a little manipulation first. Strikeouts are inversely related to ERA - that is, as strikeouts go up, ERA should be expected to go down, and vice-versa - so we need to choose a base number and subtract Saunders' K/9 rate if we want to try to see patterns and similarities in the cycles of ERA and strikeouts. For this plot, I've chosen 10 as the base number, though 12 will be used later (it makes for a clearer graph later on). When running regressions later on to find correlations, we'll use simply K/9 - this is being done right now just for visualization purposes.
10 - (Strikeouts Per Nine Innings):
Home Runs Per Nine Innings:
For the final graph, while it's certainly much more cluttered, I think it's probably most useful to look at all of the peripherals plotted together - including ERA - on one graph, to give us one single scale to look at:
Here's where the legitimate takeaways begin. Here are the major trends I see in this graph:
- Saunders strikeout rate does not fluctuate in a way that one would expect given his ERA fluctuations.
- Saunders' home run rate is fairly steady, though there is a noticeable peak.
- Saunders' walk rate has been absurdly stable throughout his career, with the exception of a brief spike where it seems that Saunders' control deserted him for a brief period (the spike up from the 69th interval to the 79th interval) before steadily returning to normalcy.
- Saunders' hit rate fluctuates quite heavily, as we'd expect given BABIP's randomness.
Strikeout Rate
Let's investigate these trends, first looking at Joe's strikeout rate. The gods of FIP have had us believe that as strikeouts rise, improvement should improve and ERA should fall. Even though Saunders' K/9 hasn't fluctuated much throughout his career, the slight movements of the 12 - K/9 plot seem to move against the ERA plot, suggesting that as Saunders strikeout rate rises, so does his ERA. Indeed, when running a regression of the two plots, I found a r-squared (correlation) value of 0.00206. That's right, a positive correlation, though one of the weakest positive correlations I've ever seen. Given the weak value of the r-squared and the odd positive correlation, I think we can safely say that Saunders' slight fluctuations of strikeout rate aren't the reason for his ERA fluctuations. In this case, I think it's pretty safe to dismiss the possibility of causation.
With regard to the primary question at hand - is Saunders volatile - I think it's safe to say that Joe's strikeout rate, while not enthralling, has proven to be extremely stable throughout his career. Running a standard deviation of the K/9 rates over the 130 intervals bears this out, as we get a mere 0.33 result. With a standard deviation so small, Saunders' seemingly-wide ERA volatility appears to almost completely unrelated to strikeout rate volatility, simply because Saunders doesn't have any real strikeout rate volatility, even before mentioning the almost non-existent statistical correlation.
Home Run Rate
Moving on to home run rate, we do find slightly more informative results, but there isn't an obvious conclusion. The standard deviation of Saunders' home run in this period is 0.18, which is somewhat significant given the damning effects of home runs, but the r-squared between home run rate and ERA is not particularly strong, at 0.30380. That's certainly a stronger correlation than in the strikeout rate case, but compared to the r-squared values we'll see in the BB/9 and H/9 categories, it's rather minuscule. Given Joe's unusual penchant for keeping home run balls from driving in multiple runs, I'm more inclined to consider home runs a minimal factor in Saunders' career ERA fluctuations.
Walk Rate
Moving on to the walk rate category, we find the first of two truly significant correlations to ERA volatility. Despite a standard deviation of just 0.32 - actually 0.01 lower than the standard deviation of Saunders' K/9 rate - there was a staggeringly-high r-squared value of 0.66651 between Saunders' BB/9 and ERA over the 130-interval sample. Despite a similar standard deviation as his K/9, though, the graph does show us why the BB/9-ERA correlation is significant. For starters, Saunders' BB/9 and ERA plots move as you'd expect - when Joe's BB/9 rises, the graph typically shows some sort of increase in Saunders' ERA.
Above all, what stands out is the aforementioned spike period in which Saunders saw his trailing BB/9 rate climb from below 3 to as high as 3.82 within a span of just ten intervals. From April 22, 2010 to June 20, 2010, career starts 99 through 110, Saunders made 12 starts for the Angels and walked 35 in just 68 innings, a K/9 of 4.63 in that span. The result, naturally, was an ERA of 5.29 over that stretch and a second significant jump period in Saunders' ERA plot. Whatever the reason for this jump in BB/9 - mechanical issue, change in approach, et al - it was rectified quickly and Saunders' BB/9 and ERA marks regressed very quickly to their normal levels, with Saunders getting his trailing BB/9 rate back below 3 by his 116th career start, his first start after Arizona acquired him from the Angels.
So, yes, we do see that there is a significant correlation between Saunders' walk rates and his ERA. This only makes sense given that Saunders, as a pitch-to-contact guy, can't afford to give up extra baserunners. However, with how steady Saunders has been at keeping his BB/9 low throughout his career, with the exception of a mere 12-start period of egregiously elevated walk rates, I do think the odds are good that he'll be able to keep posting low walk rates going forward, particularly while facing the watered-down lineups of the NL West.
Hit Rate
Now we come to the crux of the post. By simply observing the graphs above, it's somewhat frightening how closely Saunders' hit rate and ERA have followed each other throughout his career. In spite of the wide cyclic fluctuations of Saunders' hit rates over the 130 intervals - Saunders' trailing H/9 rates have a standard deviation of 0.58 over the intervals - there is still an r-squared of 0.70316, the highest correlation of any of Saunders' peripherals. Of course, this is somewhat intuitive - a contact pitcher like Saunders is going to allow a lot of balls in play, so how successful he can be will be largely dictated by how many hits he allows.
As the all-plots graph shows, Saunders' hit rates and strikeout rates have a peculiar correlation - as Saunders strikeout rates dropped early in his career, his hit rates dipped as well, exactly the opposite of what you would expect. What does that mean? Well, it means that the simple fluctuations in BABIP that Saunders has experienced throughout his career have had a more significant impact on the hits he allows per nine innings than any fluctuations of strikeouts and total batted ball rates. In simpler terms, natural fluctuations of hit rate - which I'd be inclined to say are largely luck-related and cyclic - have been the more significant cause of Saunders' career fluctuations, rather than any significant fluctuations of Saunders' peripheral skills throughout the years.
So, of course, the question becomes one of hits. Saunders kept his hit rates low in 2011, but the supposed randomness of BABIP suggests that he won't be able to continue being so lucky. However, this brings us back to the all-important point of context that was brought up earlier. Is Saunders returning to a neutral defensive context? If Arizona sits Jason Kubel on days that Saunders pitches, then the answer is obviously no. With Gerardo Parra in left field, we can expect Arizona's defense to keep his expected BABIP relatively low, just like in 2011.
With the newly-acquired Kubel in left field, though, the left-handed Saunders - against whom right-handed hitters, who are more likely to hit the ball to left field, would be expected to fare better - could see his expected hit rate rise. Perhaps we could expect to see Parra used as Saunders' personal left fielder, in the way that some of us expect John McDonald to work as Trevor Cahill's personal shortstop. Doing so would give the D-backs a degree of control on Saunders' hit rates, which have been shown to be the clearest indicator of whether or not Saunders is successful or mediocre.
So, what are the basic points I'm trying to make here? To summarize:
- When adjusting the intervals to break through the boundaries of single-year numbers, Saunders isn't nearly as volatile as he seems by looking simply at his individual-season figures.
- However, it is true that Saunders does have a significant standard deviation on his career 32-start trailing ERA totals.
- Yet, Saunders' peripheral skills have experienced relatively small fluctuations throughout his career. Aside from a short spike - which admittedly had a tangible impact on his ERA - in his walk rate in 2010, Saunders' walk rate has been remarkably steady, and his strikeout and home run rates have experienced only mild fluctuations. While it's true that Saunders' ERA does fluctuate, it's typically not because of a serious change in his peripherals or because Saunders' skillset dramatically changes between seasons or from one interval to another.
- Saunders is volatile because BABIP is volatile. For someone who allows as much contact as Saunders does with his 5.0 career K/9, BABIP is going to have a large say in how successful Joe is.
- However, BABIP is not 100% luck, and if Arizona puts a good defensive alignment behind him on a consistent basis, Saunders could again thrive in Arizona's rotation in 2012.
So how do we answer the subject question? Is Joe Saunders a volatile pitcher? Unsatisfying as this answer will probably be, the answer is both yes and no. Do Saunders' basic skills fluctuate heavily from year to year? No. Does Saunders' skillset invite volatility because of the inherent volatility of hit rates for contact pitchers? Yes.
However, remember that we retained Saunders for a mere $6MM. That kind of price-tag isn't going to afford the type of strikeout pitcher that is needed to resist the haunting effects of hit volatility, and as contact pitchers go, Arizona did just retain one of the better ones around at a steep discount. If you add in the context of Arizona's stellar outfield defensive alignment - so long as Gerardo Parra replaces Jason Kubel on days Saunders takes the hill - it appears that Saunders is all the more likely to continue to thrive in the desert, giving the club even more security in the rotation as they chase a second straight NL West division title.
* For anybody wanting to see the spreadsheets and data, feel free to e-mail me at dstritt1@nd.edu, and I'll gladly supply them to you.
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Couple of questions (sorry if they have been asked in other places)
Why do you say we got a steep discount? I only remember hearing Saunders being offered 2-3 year contracts for the same average per year. Seems to me Joe (and his agent) were wrong as to their expected value of Joe.
I dont have a huge problem with paying Joe $6 million for one year. But considering he is our 5th starter, isnt that kind of a lot for a 5th starter? Although, maybe this is one of those market efficiencies (or is in an inefficiency?).
Fun article overall. I wonder how this sort of analysis maps out in general for starting pitchers. Thanks.
I got nothin'.
On most teams
he’d be a second or third starter, so if he’s a fifth on the D’Backs, that makes him a bargain.
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by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
He's not a second on most teams
But he’s a good third for a lot of teams and only fifth for a select few (us, Philadelphia, maybe SF). Sadly, he might be a #1 for some people, like Pittsburgh or even San Diego.
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So, taken from that list
he has a harmonic mean of being effectively placed somewhere between a second or third starter on most teams…
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by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Ehhh
Looks like a #3 to me. Mostly debating the #2 point.
Not that it truly matters. : )
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
I think the original point I was referring to
was Bcawz’s questioning the wisdom of spending 6 mil for a ‘number five starter.’ Our point, I believe, is that he’s not a number five starter on most teams.
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by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Amen.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I think the D'backs got him pretty cheap actually
suggesting to me that he wanted to stay on, and participate in this team’s run for 2012. I like players who want to play on teams that are going to be in pennant races, rather than simply signing for the most bucks. He knows he’s not the Big Man on Campus, but chooses to take a lesser role in exchange for playing with a winner. I like that.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He was being pursued by other quality teams
Like Boston, but wanted to stay on the West Coast. I wouldn’t say it’s as much the winning that inspired his choice to stay, but he did like Arizona specifically.
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, its an empirical question
so I think Jim should interview him and ask that riveting question.
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by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Would be very interesting.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Interview :)
I’d love that…
Welcome Back Bazooka Joe!!!
Geoff Blum: BEST hair in the Major Leagues!
by Rockkstarr12 on Jan 24, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
I like that too
The fact is he wants to play here because not only does he love the atmosphere, he lives here year round (and has since 2004) and he loves the great group of guys we have on this team. He said so himself that this has been the best bunch of guys he’s ever played with and wants to stay a part of this group. Also, there’s the winning factor. He said he feels we can repeat if not go farther this year.
Welcome Back Bazooka Joe!!!
Geoff Blum: BEST hair in the Major Leagues!
by Rockkstarr12 on Jan 24, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
If Joe Saunders is your number 2 starter
you’re in trouble.
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
by txzona on Jan 23, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He was almost the opening day starter last year
in case you don’t remember.
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by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
And when they were talking about that,
People saw it as a sign that the Diamondbacks were in trouble.
Ian, Daniel, Josh, and two Trevors: It's not a Christian rock group.
by Zavada's Moustache on Jan 23, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
Sure
But at the time, I think people pretty clearly thought of him as our third-best guy. Wound up being our fourth-best guy after Collmenter, too.
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
no
He wasn’t
out of spring training he was “almost” our 5th starter
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
+1
A week before opening day Gibby wouldn’t even confirm that Joe was going to be in the rotation. He (and all the other starters) were that bad in ST. He was never even a remote threat to be the opening day starter.
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
by sonic barracuda on Jan 24, 2012 3:02 AM EST up reply actions
I say steep discount
Because I think his value is more than $6MM. fWAR is a great tool a lot of the time, but it seriously undervalues Saunders’ strange capability to out-perform his FIP, so I choose to use rWAR when taking a look at him. In his career, Saunders has 10.7 rWAR in 7 seasons and 161 starts, which averages to about 2.13 rWAR per 32 starts. Yes, it’s an average, and averages can be plenty misleading, but for $6MM and just one year, it’s a great value if you’re not worried about his “volatility”.
Where he slots in our rotation is pretty irrelevant, no? If Clayton Kershaw is your fifth starter (granted, I don’t think there are four starters in all of MLB better than him, but stick with me here), you don’t pay him “like a #5”, you pay him what he’s worth regardless of his rotation slot. Saunders strikes me as being worth more than $6MM over just one year.
Also, the one-year deal is a huge win for Arizona.
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
It buys time
for developing a couple of young arms (I’m referring to Bauer and Archie Bradley).
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by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Yes on Bauer, but I don’t think this signing affects Bradley’s development schedule at all. He probably starts in Low A regardless.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Jan 23, 2012 2:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I nested a joke within those parentheses
but I do believe that Bradley will move through the system very quickly. If he’s effective in the minors, we may see him in September.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
September's not gonna happen
But 2013 could.
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Even that seems incredibly ambitious
But if it happens, we’ve got a star in the making, so I’ll take it.
Where have you gone, Greg Colbrunn?
Precisely.
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
ISH
sees Archie as a closer. I don’t know if that’s how it’s going to come down, but from what I saw of him in those vids you posted, there isn’t much that his pitching coaches are going to need to do with him mechanically. Its going to be more adjusting to the pro game and lifestyle and learning how to pitch to professional hitters. Not having to have his wind and deliver tampered with is going to cut two seasons off his stay in the minors.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
why closer though?
this is a guy with Verlander upside as a starter. shouldn’t we give him time to try to let him develop a changeup?
by blue bulldog on Jan 23, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
He could end up closing
But you give him at least three years, if not four, to develop that third pitch to start. That kind of arm and upside shouldn’t be banished to the bullpen just to get him to the show at first glance.
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, tell that to ISH
it was his suggestion. But whether a closer or a starter, he needs three major league pitches to be truly effective. I don’t think it’s going to take him that long to develop though.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
You're
referring to a different ISH, right? Cause, I don’t remember ever saying that
isitspringtrainingyet.com
by imstillhungry95 on Jan 24, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah,
shortly after he signed, you mentioned you envisioned Archie as a closer.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 24, 2012 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
September seems awfully early, but I would be stoked if it happened nonetheless.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Jan 23, 2012 3:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I tip Bradley
as the minor league sleeper to move through the system fast. His delivery is really nice, and has a strong arm. If he’s hard to hit in the minors, and I expect he will be, he won’t spend much time there.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
I've been told (though this is somewhat obvious)
To see Archie early when he gets to South Bend. Because he probably won’t be staying here long. Because he throws 98 and will utterly demolish these hitters.
I’m so giddy I could just squirm.
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds like two or three good starts, max
then he’s packing his bags for Alabama…
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
That'd be aggressive
But there might be merit to him skipping Hi-A and the Cal League’s hitter-friendliness. Then again, it’s not super extreme (like High Desert or Lancaster, for instance) and they weren’t afraid to send Bauer or Skaggs there, for instance.
California’s probably nicer weather, too. :-)
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
i'd be a bit surprised if he skipped A+
i could see a similar promotion schedule as Carlos Martinez had this year, if Bradley doesn’t show any hiccups
by blue bulldog on Jan 23, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Same here.
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by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
Do we know
Where he’ll be starting yet?
Where have you gone, Greg Colbrunn?
i'll be absolutely shocked
if it isn’t SB
by blue bulldog on Jan 23, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
Seems like South Bend.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks
Yeah, it makes more sense to think that we paid $6 million for a pitcher who is either worth that or more. If he slots 5th in our rotation, then that is great for us (assuming it means our rotation is strong).
I guess I was thinking the fact that $6 million was basically the market price for him (thus no discount).
Baseball is funny that your starter slots 1-4 barely cost more combined than your 5th starter (for AZ at least).
I got nothin'.
Great post
About Parra being Saunders’ personal left fielder
Based on Piecoro’s article recently (I think it was his article) and Young’s/Parra’s splits, it seems likely to me that we are going with a pseduo-platoon in center. It actually might work. I never realized just how horrendously bad Young is against righties. Obviously Young will still get the majority of starts, but I think Parra may actually end up spelling Young more than he spells Kubel.
While this is probably a good thing from an offensive standpoint, it’s probably going to hurt us defensively. It also makes it seem like we will probably care more who the opposing pitcher is (in terms of our lineup construction) as opposed to who our pitcher is.
A Kubel/Parra LF/CF with Saunders on the mound
Is asking for trouble. If it’s Hudson or Kennedy, I’d understand it given their propensity for missing bats. You just can’t depend on that from Saunders.
Frankly, the idea of Parra in CF on a consistent basis is concerning to me overall, but I certainly get the idea of it. I simply think that Young is too good to be platooned with on a consistent basis. I don’t normally buy small samples of UZR, but I totally believe CY’s 2011 UZR based on what I watched in the field last year. He was phenomenal, and Parra was noticeably less rangey in CF.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
i agree
that Kubel/Parra with Saunders on the mound could be pretty bad
i just can’t envision our FO/Gibby using Parra as Saunders’s personal LF
by blue bulldog on Jan 23, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
True - he should be the everyday regular left fielder
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
You can't envision anything positive about Saunders now can you?
Just sayin’…
Welcome Back Bazooka Joe!!!
Geoff Blum: BEST hair in the Major Leagues!
by Rockkstarr12 on Jan 24, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
That's more of a bash on Kubel...
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 25, 2012 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
Oh...gotcha
Welcome Back Bazooka Joe!!!
Geoff Blum: BEST hair in the Major Leagues!
by Rockkstarr12 on Jan 28, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
For all of KT’s talk of Parra bringing value to the team as a bench player and occasional starter, I still bet he’s traded this season. He’s more valuable to other teams as a starter at present.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Jan 23, 2012 3:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
How is he less valuable
than a cow grazing in left field? This makes no practical sense on any level (not your comment – the idea that an injury prone slow guy is a better choice than the feisty, talented Parra).
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
Parra is more valuable than the anchor-shaped-as-a-person in left field named Jason Kubel. That’s the point. He’s valuable as a bench player here, but several teams would love to have him as a starter, I’m sure. Towers likes him as a backup to Kubel, but I’m sure a team will eventually make him an offer that he can’t refuse for Parra as the season wears on.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Jan 23, 2012 3:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I see no upside
to having Kubel start over Parra. I’m shocked that a pitching-intensive GM like KT wants to place an essentially immobile injury prone player over a defensive ace like Parra. Maybe KT knows something about Parra that’s not obvious to me, but from where I sit, admittedly distant, I would want Parra in left field.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
At the same time
At least Towers went out and got someone who has a different skillset to Parra. I know we’ve all been bashing the Kubel move ruthlessly, and we have our reasons, but it’s certainly a better idea to get a bat-first, lacking-glove guy that another guy whose bat has some questions but who has an elite glove. This way, we can be a bit more flexible with matchups and tailoring our lineup to the needs of our pitching, the opposing pitching, et al.
Kubel might not be a clear upgrade, but he’s clearly different than Parra. This gives Gibson options and flexibility, it’s now just up to him to utilize them properly. If anything, the move shows a ton of faith in Gibson to utilize his matchups properly. We’ll see if it’s well-placed.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
I like that explanation
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed,
If there’s one thing we’ve seen about KT in his two offseasons at work, it’s that he values depth and flexibility, almost above all else.
Ian, Daniel, Josh, and two Trevors: It's not a Christian rock group.
by Zavada's Moustache on Jan 23, 2012 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
Did we need "different" in LF?
I’d have preferred that extra money be spent on something “different” in the middle IF, but that’s me. Don’t see any possible way to spin the signing of Kubel, along with the signing of two aging MIF, as good. LF wasn’t a pressing need.
by azshadowwalker on Jan 30, 2012 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
I think if the offer is right
we will trade Parra. A good comparison of what Towers will want is what the Astros got for Michael Bourn. 3 young pitchers and maybe a fringe 3rd/4th outfielder.
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
get rid of Parra
send Collmenter to the bullpen, trade CY, what’s going on here? Those guys were central to winning the pennant last year? Why tamper with a well-tuned engine? I really don’t understand you guys.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Well
Try thinking from the KT frame of mind. Honestly I am not sure I understand it yet (KT’s thinking).
Personally I think they would be crazy to get rid of CY or Parra.
And moving Collmenter to the bullpen, well I dont want them to do it because then I would miss out on all the responses (which I quite enjoy) you give to people who suggest it. ;)
I got nothin'.
it always depends on the package
but i wouldn’t mind trading CY
he’s valuable, but also going to be getting expensive for a team that even with a payroll raise, still sits in the bottom third of baseball
by blue bulldog on Jan 23, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
I really don't like the idea of trading Young.
I think he’s going to have a good year especially if his wrist is healed and is a strong candidate for some hitting progression we’re going to need this year.
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
by sonic barracuda on Jan 23, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Young is interesting
in that he’s clearly a clutch hitter. When the games aren’t that important, he struggles mightily. When the game is important, or the situation is crucial, he seems to turn it up a few notches. It’ll be interesting to see how he does this season with the higher expectations.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
I don't usually buy the "clutch" hitter label
But there’s a good deal of merit here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=youngch04&year=Career&t=b#lever
career .242/.321/.444 high leverage, career .256/.330/.471 medium leverage, career .223/.309/.401 low leverage. Nearly 600 PA high-leverage, over 1300 PA each for medium and low leverage.
That’s weird.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
agreed on the wrist thing
he was showing massive improvement in power before the wrist injury happened and after that his numbers took a serious nose-dive
he was starting to show some of that again, and i can only hope that the wrist is all fixed up for the start of the season
by blue bulldog on Jan 23, 2012 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
I don't want to trade him.
or do any of those things. But to say that they are a perfect “well-tuned engine” when they didn’t win a world series is incorrect. If trading Parra helps us in short-term, and I mean really help us (I think middle-of-the-order bat) we have to consider trading him.
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
I didn't say perfect
I said ‘well-tuned engine.’ I think it would be silly to trade Parra for the Siren’s Song of some short term illusion.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 23, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
I really don't think you're reading the room correctly here
- The Collmenter thing is still not as absurd an option as you keep insisting it is, at least historically. Starters without a good third pitch and without electric stuff, historically, don’t stay as starters for long, and you know this. But obviously there are exceptions, and it may turn out that Collmenter is an exception, and his level of deception and pitching angle may make up for those deficiencies, and more. Last year he was really frikkin good, but 2/3’s of a season’s starts isn’t exactly what you’d call a large sample size. And I think we’re all more than happy to let him stay in the rotation next year to see if he’s the real deal. None of us WANT Josh in the pen. Most of us just EXPECT him there, eventually. I’d love me some more of 2011 Josh for the next half decade.
And I think another driving force behind the Collmenter move is the idea that moving him would ultimately be needed simply because Bauer or Skaggs was setting the world on fire, and that’s something we all want. I may be wrong about this, but in my head I’ve always assumed the kids would take Josh’s rotation spot, pushing him to the pen, and even though I know those are two separate ideas, they always get lumped into a single idea in my head, and I think a lot of us may be doing that. And with Saunders back, that idea seems even more likely, since 4 spots in the rotation, even if they struggle, seem more or less like “locks.” Like I said, not fair to Josh at all, and maybe not even connected, but still something that’s out there.
- I’m pretty sure none of us actually want to move Parra. At all. The Kubel thing was met with an almost universal “huh??” But it’s not like he’s untouchable, and discussing what it would take for us to move him doesn’t seem unreasonable considering we have depth at the position. His value may never be higher, and good low payroll organizations need to sell high to stay competitive.
- The thing that makes CY different from Parra or Collmenter is that there’s a good chance he’s not in the future plans for the team, partially because of what we may or may not have in Parra playing CF. He’s getting to the age and pay scale where smart teams get quality value for him if they’re not planning on retaining him. Once again, no one is advocating dumping him for the sake of getting rid of him. He’s a quality player that we have the luxury of playing for us, and we’re trying to win NOW. But if it’s clear he’s priced out of our range in two years, we can get something great for him, AND we have enough internal options to not hurt the current roster terribly? You really have to explore that option.
No one wants to blow this team up, as far as I can tell. But it’s really not heresy to even talk about options.
Where have you gone, Greg Colbrunn?
by SenSurround on Jan 23, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
to be honest
i started secretly waving the “trade Parra” flag after he won the Gold Glove
by blue bulldog on Jan 23, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
Solid comment
Rec worthily received.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 23, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
You just like it cuz it's long
;)
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
Heh.
I have no way to refute this…
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 24, 2012 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
Now that our bullpen is stacked with quality arms
and we have guys like Munson and Marshall rising through the system as internal options. Collmenter to the pen doesn’t seem as likely as it was last year.
The most likely scenario in my mind would be Collmenter not being able to get past the 4 or 5th inning mid season, which would lead to him being sent down. I think he’ll get over 20 starts in 2012 though, because other pitchers are likely to get injured and he deserves a shot to prove 2011 wasn’t a fluke.
2013 is when the competition is going to get really stiff and he might be better suited with another team.
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
I was sold on Collmenter
after that playoff performance. If there was a time he was going to show a kink in the armor that would have been it. Third time facing MIL, huge pressure situation, uber-focused hitters, brutal opponent lineup. It would not be a wild stretch to suggest that Collmenter could prove to be our second best starter next year.
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
by sonic barracuda on Jan 24, 2012 3:13 AM EST up reply actions
Speaking of playoffs
Wouldn’t that be an interesting analysis? To compare how young players who perform extraordinarily well (or extraordinarily bad) in playoffs in their early 20s project for the rest of their careers, or at least for the next five years. You busy Dan?
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
by sonic barracuda on Jan 24, 2012 3:18 AM EST up reply actions
I will be shocked if he has a better year than Hudson or Cahill.
more so Hudson than Cahill.
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
I’m not sure Parra is quite as valuable as Bourn. But, since the Astros traded Bourn for a bag of hot garbage, I won’t be surprised if Parra nets a better package. I’m sure Towers will demand a team’s finest Triple A relievers, first and foremost.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Jan 23, 2012 3:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I would be fine with us trading Parra for the right piece
Mostly because we have guys like Eaton and Pollock waiting in the wings.
But if they’re going to trade him, then they should do it now.His stock has never been higher.
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
You guys really don't understand baseball, do you?
you don’t take winners and trade them, period.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 24, 2012 1:35 AM EST up reply actions
dude winz
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
What wins?
THIS teams wins. Screw with the formula, and it’s no longer going to be as good. Think of it this way. Your reasoning is akin to saying “The Beatles would be a better band if they traded that Paul McCartney guy for Mick Jagger.” Phooey.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 24, 2012 1:55 AM EST up reply actions
The minute you stop looking for upgrades
Is the minute you’ll cease to get better.
I don’t want to rush to move Parra. But every player has his price.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 24, 2012 2:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually...
why have coaching then? Simply fit pieces together to match stochastic predictions, a voila! Instant winner. Except it really doesn’t work that way. Talented players can respond to good coaching, good training, and team chemistry, which is something that is ignored here completely. Gibson inherited a team with no chemistry and made them believe in what they were doing.
sententia Platonis semper in ore illius fuit, florere civitates si aut philosophi imperarent aut imperantes philosopharentur
by NASCARbernet on Jan 24, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
i don't quite get what you are trying to say
if you think coaching matters the most, then what about when Gibson was bench coach here? does that not matter? is it only the manager that matters?
does this also mean you think that if Gibson coached the Orioles, they would make it to the playoffs?
by blue bulldog on Jan 24, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
It's not that we ignore it
It’s that it’s not really all that knowable, because we are not there on the field and in the clubhouse and in the weight rooms. You can’t depend on the media to give you accurate info, because they are biased for and against the guys they like personally. And you can’t depend on the team to tell you because they have an agenda and need to portray guys a certain way publicly.
Some of choose to not speculate wildy about that which we have no clue about.
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
I was quoting the great Jerry Dipoto meme
back on topic
Parra is replaceable, it’s as simple as that. Everybody except Upton and IPK are replaceable with our current roster. No reason to make guys untradeable if the right piece comes along .
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
Matt Garza is a winner
Tampa Bay traded away Matt Garza
naturally, they were not able to make it to the playoffs
by blue bulldog on Jan 24, 2012 2:23 AM EST up reply actions
I agree, trade him now
His value will never be higher. Then knowing my predictive luck he’ll become Carlos Quentin Part Deaux.
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
by sonic barracuda on Jan 24, 2012 3:15 AM EST up reply actions
KT in the last two years hasn't traded guys when their stock was high
Reynolds and Johnson etc
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
Reynolds?
Not exactly a sell-low. Wasn’t a huge sell-high – that’d have been post-2009 – but 2010 is still his second-highest fWAR campaign of his career and he hit 32 homers that year.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 24, 2012 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
Reynolds was definitely a sell-low
or at least more a sell-low than a sell-high.
GM’s don’t care about fWAR. GM’s care about BA.
by blue bulldog on Jan 24, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
I think you underrate the mental capabilities of front offices.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 24, 2012 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
I certainly hope not.
Ian, Daniel, Josh, and two Trevors: It's not a Christian rock group.
by Zavada's Moustache on Jan 24, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
He hit .198 in 2010 compared to a .260 and .240 the previous two years.
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
I don't think
Anybody was really concerned with his batting average staying below the Mendoza Line.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 24, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
i feel like
you’re having selective memory right now
lots of ppl thought that Reynolds was sold low that year.
by blue bulldog on Jan 24, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Nah,
Those are AZCentral commentators, not people.
Ian, Daniel, Josh, and two Trevors: It's not a Christian rock group.
by Zavada's Moustache on Jan 24, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
not the comments
the article itself is written by nick piecoro and states that it was a sell low
by blue bulldog on Jan 24, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
definitely a sell low
and perceived as such
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
Just look at the return
If you think about the trade from a pre season perspective before David had the awesome season he did, a quality 3B should return you more than two unproven bullpen arms, neither of which is much of a real prospect, and one of which was a flamed out starter.
Definitely sold low, relative to 2009 at least. Though as last year in Baltimore showed, 2010 isn’t probably low so much as what he actually is.
Where have you gone, Greg Colbrunn?
People loved Hernandez as a set-up man.
Just because he had a mediocre year as a starter doesn’t mean teams were low on him. It was quite the opposite.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 25, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
How did this thread get so off-track?
It’s all about JOE ya know…
Welcome Back Bazooka Joe!!!
Geoff Blum: BEST hair in the Major Leagues!
by Rockkstarr12 on Jan 24, 2012 11:16 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
We're an easily distracted bunch
it seems
Where have you gone, Greg Colbrunn?
I agree
Welcome Back Bazooka Joe!!!
Geoff Blum: BEST hair in the Major Leagues!
by Rockkstarr12 on Jan 28, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Bordering on
explosive at times.
"Without freedom of speech I might be in the swamp" B. Dylan
LOL
Welcome Back Bazooka Joe!!!
Geoff Blum: BEST hair in the Major Leagues!
by Rockkstarr12 on Jan 28, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions

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