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Around SBN: This Week In GIFs

How Will Paul Goldschmidt Fare In Arizona's Lineup In 2012?

In an off-season full of action, one constant has been the fact that Arizona seems content with playing Paul Goldschmidt at first base on a near-everyday basis, with occasional protection from a tough right-hander from of Lyle Overbay. However, with just 177 plate appearances under his belt, it's reasonable to wonder just how much he'll provide Arizona in 2012. On one hand, Goldschmidt looks like a certain upgrade over the Juan Miranda (91 wRC+) and Xavier Nady (70 wRC+) duo that manned first for much of last year, but, more precisely, what kind of numbers can Arizona expect from their young slugger? After all, it was just a few short months ago that Goldschmidt slotted into the final spot of Baseball America's Midseason Top 50 Prospects List, and Goldschmidt barely missed qualifying for the end-of-season list, where he probably would have slotted somewhere in the 50-75 range.

This brings me to the approach I'm taking with this post: to try to give us an idea of what to expect from Goldschmidt, I'll be sorting through previous BA Top-100 lists to see what kind of production past top first base prospects have contributed to their teams in their respective first full pro seasons.

Star-divide

For the purposes of this post, I'll be looking strictly at offensive value, for two reasons. The first reason is that we're dealing with one-year samples here, so defensive metrics are typically unreliable in this size sample. The second reason is that I don't think defensive metrics portray first basemen properly even in significant enough samples. As just one small example of this, hearken back to the days of Adam LaRoche turning Mark Reynolds into a non-terrible defender. Yet, even in that year, LaRoche's mere 5.2 UZR wasn't what represented the value he provided - rather, it was the fact that Reynolds posted the only positive UZR of his career, +1.7, compared to a second "best" full-season mark of -11.0. In other words, digs and stretches aren't attributed in full to the first baseman when they probably ought to be.

Still, I would be remiss to not at least acknowledge the fact that the two worst UZR totals by qualifying first basemen in 2011 came from highly-regarded rookies: Eric Hosmer and Freddie Freeman, who combined for a -19.6 UZR. I don't put much weight in it, but others might and it's at least worth mentioning for those who want to consider those one-year samples as indicative of possible defensive woes.

The offensive numbers I will be using for this post are the basic triple-slash line (batting average/on-base percentage/slugging percentage), home runs, isolated power (slugging minus batting average), wOBA, and wRC+ (park-and-league-adjusted wOBA). This will help to give us an idea of not just overall productivity, but of what kinds of skills we might expect to see from Paul in 2012, as well as what skills we might have to wait a bit longer to see.

For prospects who appear on multiple lists, I'll be using the most recent ranking, as this will get us rankings that coincide with a similar point in the development curve of each prospect listed - after all, it doesn't do us a lot of good to compare Goldschmidt to Freddie Freeman's pre-2009 #87 rank when that rank came after Freeman finished his full-season pro debut in the Sally League (Low-A) as an 18-year-old, with Freeman eventually rising to #17 on BA's pre-2011 list. Thus, by taking the most recent rankings for each prospect, we get a general sense for what the industry felt about each prospect as they were higher up in the system. Yes, this does mean that some prospects who were highly-ranked in the low minors and fell off the lists altogether as they reached the upper levels will filter in and skew the results, but we'll make note of those cases later on.

Ready for an enormous table?

Pre-2011 BA Rank 1st Full Year Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+
Eric Hosmer 8 2011 21 128 .293 .334 .465 .172 19 .342 114
Freddie Freeman 17 2011 21 157 .282 .346 .448 .166 21 .345 118
Brandon Belt 23 N/A
Jonathan Singleton 39 N/A
Yonder Alonso 73 N/A
Anthony Rizzo 75 N/A
Chris Carter 91 N/A
Pre-2010 BA Rank 1st Full Year Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+
Justin Smoak 13 2010 23 100 .218 .307 .371 .153 13 .300 81
Logan Morrison 20 2011 23 123 .247 .330 .468 .221 23 .344 115
Brett Wallace 27 2011 24 115 .259 .334 .369 .110 5 .310 95
Ike Davis 62 2010 23 147 .264 .351 .440 .176 19 .345 115
Lars Anderson 87 N/A
Pre-2009 BA Rank 1st Full Year Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+
Matt LaPorta 27 2010 25 110 .221 .306 .362 .141 12 .299 84
Angel Villalona 44 N/A
Kyle Blanks 50 N/A
Pre-2008 BA Rank 1st Full Year Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+
Chris Marrero N/A N/A
Joey Votto 44 2008 24 151 .297 .368 .506 .209 24 .387 128
Daric Barton 48 2008 22 140 .226 .327 .348 .122 9 .302 83
Chris Davis 65 2009 23 113 .238 .284 .442 .204 21 .311 79
Beau Mills 87 N/A
Steve Pearce 89 N/A
Pre-2007 BA Rank 1st Full Year Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+
James Loney 44 2008 24 161 .289 .338 .434 .145 13 .333 101
Chris Parmelee 94 N/A
Pre-2006 BA Rank 1st Full Year Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+
Prince Fielder 11 2006 22 157 .271 .347 .483 .212 28 .354 111
Conor Jackson 17 2006 24 140 .291 .368 .441 .150 15 .352 105
Kendrys Morales 78 2009 26 152 .306 .355 .569 .263 34 .382 132
Justin Huber 84 N/A
Eric Duncan 86 N/A
Pre-2005 BA Rank 1st Full Year Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+
Casey Kotchman 6 2007 24 137 .296 .372 .467 .171 11 .362 120
Brian Kopirak 21 N/A
Ryan Howard 27 2006 26 159 .313 .425 .659 .346 58 .436 162
Michael Aubrey 41 N/A
Pre-2004 BA Rank 1st Full Year Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+
Justin Morneau 16 2005 24 141 .239 .304 .437 .198 22 .312 89
Brad Nelson 48 N/A
Jason Stokes 51 N/A
Adrian Gonzalez 52 2006 24 156 .304 .362 .500 .196 24 .363 125
Adam LaRoche 73 2004 24 110 .278 .333 .488 .210 13 .350 110
Pre-2003 BA Rank 1st Full Year Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+
Hee Seop Choi 22 2004 25 126 .251 .370 .449 .198 15 .363 125
Travis Hafner 46 2004 27 140 .311 .410 .583 .272 28 .417 157
Lyle Overbay 65 2004 27 159 .301 .385 .478 .177 16 .370 122
Pre-2002 BA Rank 1st Full Year Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+
Carlos Pena 5 2002 24 115 .242 .316 .448 .206 19 .331 104
Nick Johnson 13 2002 23 129 .243 .347 .402 .159 15 .329 101
Xavier Nady 39 2003 24 110 .267 .321 .391 .124 9 .315 94

This gives us 25 "first full season" lines to look at, as well as 18 prospects listed who have failed to play 100 games in a single season thus far in their respective careers (five of whom were all still prospects a year ago). As a side note, the simple arithmetic average line of the 25 first full season lines is: BA Rank of 33.8, age (calculated by B-R as of June 30 of each year) of 23.9, 135 games played, .270/.346/.458 BA/OBP/SLG, .188 ISO, 19.4 HR, .346 wOBA, 110.4 wRC+. However, going a bit deeper into the list will likely be more informative, so that's what I'd like to do.

The following table breaks down the group into a series of tiers based on position on the list: the groups are those ranked 1-5, 6-15, 16-30, 31-50, 51-75, and 76-100. The rationale behind outlining the different tiers in this way is that the talent at the top of the list - the truly elite talent - is rarer than the solid-yet-unspectacular talent near the end of the list, so the top portions of the lists should be broken into smaller segments than the bottom portions of the lists. This is rather unscientific and imperfect, but reasonable.

All but one of the entries are simple averages across the set of players who completed a full season in the major leagues within each category. The lone exception is the average BA Rank of all players listed, which uses a simple average for each player on the entire list. Non-Qualifier Rate is the number of prospects from each category who have thus far failed to record a 100-game season in the major leagues.

BA Rank Age GP BA OBP SLG ISO HR wOBA wRC+ Non-Qualifier Rate
All 45.5 18/43
w/ Full Year 33.8 23.9 135.0 .270 .346 .458 .188 19.4 .346 110.4
1-5 5 24 115 .242 .316 .448 .206 19 .331 104 0/1
6-15 10.2 22.6 130.2 .264 .341 .438 .173 17.2 .337 105.4 0/5
16-30 21.6 24.0 133.9 .263 .348 .454 .191 21.4 .344 110.5 3/11
31-50 44.2 24.2 140.4 .278 .353 .452 .174 16.6 .351 112.6 5/10
51-75 63.4 24.2 137.0 .277 .343 .470 .193 18.6 .348 110.2 3/8
76-100 78 26 152 .306 .355 .569 .263 34 .382 132 7/8

What can we glean from this list? Well, for starters, the prospects who rank in the far upper reaches of these lists tend to provide similar, perhaps even slightly inferior, current level of skill, more probability of panning out, and more youth - i.e. upside - than those further down on the list. However, the non-qualifier rate for the latter parts of the lists grows substantially compared to the higher parts of the lists. Let's take a closer look at each tier and see what we can derive. (Listed numbers are the season prior to which the player most recently appeared on a Baseball America Top-100 list.)

1-5 Tier:

Qualifiers: Carlos Pena (2002). Non-Qualifiers: N/A.

Pena was rather egregiously overrated when he was listed as the fifth-best prospect in the game prior to the 2002 season, the earliest list used in this data compilation. He was already 24 at the time, and while his minor-league numbers were solid, they weren't much better than Goldschmidt's. A player's bat has to be nearly flawless at a very young age to merit such a high ranking as a first base prospect, and I imagine Pena's age would have pushed him down the list if BA could use today's tools and studies at that time to re-do their list.

6-15 Tier:

Qualifiers: Eric Hosmer (2011), Justin Smoak (2010), Prince Fielder (2006), Casey Kotchman (2005), and Nick Johnson (2002). Non-Qualifiers: N/A.

What defines this group is rather simple: they made it to the upper levels of the minor leagues - and subsequently to the major leagues - at very young ages, which earned them their top-15 spots on BA's lists. This youth gives greater credence to the possibility that these players will see their bats continue to improve across the several years of team control up to their peak years, giving them greater chances of being bona fide stars and difference-makers. In short, more youth = more upside, even if the present skills that can be seen aren't dramatically superior to other first base prospects around. The bad news is that Goldschmidt is not likely to have the upside of players like Fielder, Smoak, or Hosmer. The good news, of course, is that if we're looking strictly at 2012, Goldschmidt is as good a bet as any prospect around to put up quality numbers.

16-30 Tier:

Qualifiers: Freddie Freeman (2011), Logan Morrison (2010), Brett Wallace (2010), Matt LaPorta (2009), Conor Jackson (2006), Ryan Howard (2006), Justin Morneau (2004), and Hee Seop Choi (2003). Non-Qualifiers: Brandon Belt (2011), Chris Marrero (2008), and Brian Dopirak (2006).

Here we start to see a bit of blending between the younger prospects with projection left in their bats (i.e. Freeman, Morrison) and older prospects expected to have an immediate impact (i.e. Howard, Choi). With the exceptions of lower-level busts Chris Marrero and Brian Dopirak, these prospects combine upper-level success with just the occasional concern here or there - a lack of power, lower perceived ceiling, higher age, scouting reports and statistics not matching up, etc. With Brandon Belt's arrival in the major leagues delayed only by the twin masterminds Sabean and Bochy, the only players listed here to truly flame out in the minor leagues were those in the lower-levels of the minor leagues upon last ranking, Marrero and Dopirak, so an upper-level player in this tier is a safe bet to at least have some major-league impact.

31-50 Tier:

Qualifiers: Joey Votto (2008), Daric Barton (2008), James Loney (2007), Travis Hafner (2003), and Xavier Nady (2002). Non-Qualifiers: Jonathan Singleton (2011), Angel Villalona (2009), Kyle Blanks (2009), Michael Aubrey (2005), and Brad Nelson (2004).

With this tier, we start to see some people who reached the upper levels of the minors leagues, yet still have been unable to get in a full season of everyday big-league work. Now, among the non-qualifiers, there are some notable exceptions, such as Singleton, who is still prowling the minors, and Villalona, whose career was halted by a serious criminal case. However, Blanks posted a .918 OPS for Double-A San Antonio as a 21-year-old in 2008, yet hasn't established himself as a big-leaguer in the three years since, even spending some time all the way down in Double-A in 2011. Blanks isn't a lost cause, but as a 25-year-old with fewer than 500 career big-league plate appearances, he's certainly underwhelmed. Meanwhile, both Aubrey and Nelson split time between Hi-A and Double-A in the seasons that preceded their respective inclusions on BA's lists, yet both have completely flamed out.

Still, there have been some immense successes on this list, beginning with Votto and Hafner, two of the older first basemen to appear in this tier, and the average first-full-season production is still on par with the higher-ranked prospects from the first set of tiers. As far as immediate returns are concerned, it doesn't appear to be a significant drop-off from the higher tiers to this one provided that you avoid a complete bust.

51-75 Tier:

Qualifiers: Ike Davis (2010), Chris Davis (2008), Adrian Gonzalez (2004), Adam LaRoche (2004), and Lyle Overbay (2003). Non-Qualifiers: Yonder Alonso (2011), Anthony Rizzo (2011), and Jason Stokes (2004).

Finally, we arrive at the tier that Goldschmidt would most likely fit into were he still eligible for prospect status. Encouraging note #1 is that two of the three non-qualifying prospects are still highly-regarded, with Alonso likely to be the Opening Day first baseman for San Diego in 2011, and Rizzo likely to have the same title for the Cubs. However, given Alonso's history of significantly higher rankings on prior lists, it's hard to say he hasn't disappointed. On the bright side, Stokes' rankings came while he was still in the A-ball levels of the minors - he was actually as high as #15 on BA's pre-2003 list.

In the end, the best comparables for Goldschmidt are the set of qualifiers here. These prospects give us players who reached the upper levels of the minor leagues and were relatively highly regarded, yet were not considered elite for a variety of reasons - too old, lacking scouting reports, lack of star potential, substandard scouting reports, et al - yet reached the major leagues shortly after receiving those 51-75 range rankings. Additionally, despite their flaws and lower rankings, they performed at a shockingly-similar average rate to the overall group of top-100 first baseman prospects in their first qualifying seasons.

76-100 Tier:

Qualifiers: Kendrys Morales (2006). Non-Qualifiers: Chris Carter (2011), Lars Anderson (2010), Beau Mills (2008), Steve Pearce (2008), Chris Parmelee (2007), Justin Huber (2007), and Eric Duncan (2007).

In the lowest tier, we have a shocking rate of attrition. Part of this is because a lot of these prospects appeared on BA's lists while in the lower minors due to upside, but couldn't stick on BA's lists in the upper minors as they were unable to keep up their prolific hitting. Additionally, we see a few early draft picks here who were rather over-hyped immediately after being drafted, then disappeared from the list after they were exposed in pro ball (i.e. Parmelee, Mills). However, part of this is also because they simply weren't as good of prospects to begin with. We've seen how attrition rates have risen through the tiers, and it's not surprising to see the highest rate of attrition here in the lowest tier. At this point, it seems that the only non-qualifier here with a chance of breaking through in the majors is Chris Carter, who could see significant PA's in 2012 as Oakland's DH.

So what does it all mean? Well, when I broke up this set of first baseman prospects into these tiers, I was expecting to find that first-year performance declined from the highest tier to the lowest tier. To my surprise, this is far from the case, as performance is somewhat constant between the tiers, and the only thing that significantly changes from tier to tier is attrition rate. It seems that the tiers are largely separated by age and long-term projection rather than the expected level of immediate impact. This makes sense, in a way, as no position player prospect should really ever be judged based on short-term hopes, as there is almost always a need for an adjustment period to adapt to the challenges of major-league-caliber pitching.

Another thing to notice is that most of the non-qualifiers that appear here are prospects that were most recently ranked on BA's lists without any upper-level (i.e. Double-A or above) success. This isn't to say that lower-level first base prospects don't belong on these lists, because many of the prospects that originally appear on BA's lists in the lower levels go on to also rank on BA's lists in the higher levels, and thus their appearances in the lower-levels don't make an impression on the data we've collected However, what can be said is these prospects who showed glimpses of prospectdom in the lower-levels but flopped and were off of the lists by the time they reached the upper levels aren't particularly useful comparables for Goldschmidt, who has already had immense success in the upper levels of the minors.

The likes of Chris Marrero, Brian Dopirak, Michael Aubrey, Brad Nelson, Jason Stokes, Lars Anderson, Beau Mills, Chris Parmelee, and Eric Duncan all fit under this umbrella of players who were highly-regarded in A-ball but were seeing their prospect stock rapidly on the decline in the upper-levels. This significantly shortens the list of strong comparables for Goldschmidt - prospects who were ranked highly on BA's lists while in the upper-minors - mostly trimming some of the non-qualifiers from the list. In this case, the comparables for players who had solid results in the upper-minors, but truly failed to register a qualifying first-season in the big-leagues are Kyle Blanks, Chris Carter, Steve Pearce, and Justin Huber. This means that there are certainly still examples of prospects completely flopping that are legitimate cause for concern, but the list certainly shrinks when you consider Goldschmidt's upper-level success.

This isn't to say that every "qualifying" player experienced success. There are some notable flops on the list, like Choi, Kotchman, Loney, and Chris Davis. However, this isn't meant to be a predictor of whether or not Goldschmidt will ultimately be a success or a flop. It's simply meant to ask what we can expect from him in 2012 - after all, even Choi posted a 116 wRC+ in his first season of over 100 games played, notching 10.6 runs above average at the plate in 416 plate appearances. We've limited the horizon and averaged out all of the results, and across-the-board, whether you're a top-15 prospect or in the bottom 50, it seems that a ~110 wRC+ is a reasonable expectation.

Moving on, it should be pointed out that a 110 wRC+ isn't spectacular for an everyday first baseman. It would be better than just six qualifying first baseman, according to Fangraphs. However, it would also be far from a total disaster. After all, the two qualifying first baseman with 2011 wRC+ totals between 100 and 110, James Loney and Mark Trumbo, each had 2.3 fWAR seasons with the help of some solid defensive ratings. If Goldschmidt can contribute solid defense and baserunning to go with that level of offensive production, he could be a minimum-salary solid everyday regular player for Arizona, which is an incredible value. Additionally, that 110 wRC+ would be the third-highest total among 2011 D-backs with at least 200 plate appearances in sedona red, behind just Justin Upton (140) and Miguel Montero (116), and ahead of Gerardo Parra (109), Ryan Roberts (107), and Chris Young (102).

Further, that 110 wRC+ would represent an enormous upgrade over recent D-backs first basemen. Rather than write out all of the painful details of recent Arizona first baseman failures, I'll simply lay it out in a table for all to understand. Here is the combined offensive output of all D-backs players as first baseman at any point from 2008 to 2011 (I don't believe pinch-hit plate appearances and plate appearances while playing another position are counted) (link to additional data here).

Name PA wRC+
Conor Jackson 894 98
Adam LaRoche 615 103
Chad Tracy 580 76
Rusty Ryal 290 84
Xavier Nady 223 70
Brandon Allen 209 87
Juan Miranda 202 91
Adam Dunn 187 128
Paul Goldschmidt 177 120
Tony Clark 155 78
Josh Whitesell 142 74
Russell Branyan 69 69
Lyle Overbay 49 130
Jamie D'Antona 19 17

A 110 wRC+ and hopes of an average regular aren't exhilarating at face value. However, when you consider that the only performance Arizona has seen out of its first basemen over the past four seasons combined that tops that 110 mark comes from an Adam Dunn rental, a few spot starts from Lyle Overbay, and half a season of the man in question, Mr. Goldschmidt, it starts looking like a godsend.

In the end, I suppose my biggest conclusion is this: regardless of what various projections are telling you, try not to expect too much from Paul Goldschmidt in 2012. History simply tells us that although such expectations might be met, the odds of this happening are quite slim for first-year first basemen. He'll take his bumps and bruises as the league adjusts to him and he's forced to re-adjust to the league, and he likely won't be the instant savior he was made out to be. Nonetheless, even if his overall offensive efficiency slips a bit from his brief 2011 big-league stint, he'll still be a solid value for Arizona, and a significant upgrade on the generally mediocre play seen at first base during 2011 prior to Goldschmidt's arrival, and that should be celebrated and appreciated.

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Like you said

he won’t have to do much to be a big upgrade over 2011’s Miranda and Branyan.

But I’m not expecting him to be one of our best players. Something like .230 AVG,.340OBP, 25 HR, average defense with a fair amount of rookie mistakes.

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by tcyoung

by txzona on Jan 12, 2012 11:55 PM EST reply actions  

this was a fun read Dan, thanks

also, i can’t believe that an 850 OPS for Adrian Gonzalez in Petco was worth only wRC of 125

run environments back then must have been crazy…..

by blue bulldog on Jan 13, 2012 12:15 AM EST reply actions  

i was thinking about Goldschmidt the other day

and looking at comparables, not from a BA prospect perspective, but from a major league plate discipline perspective

basically, if you think Goldy’s contact rate (overall 70%) and swinging strike rate (12%) from his sample last year is as good as it gets for him, then going forward, he should look like a right-handed version of Carlos Pena. i think they have similar power (Goldy might have a tad more) and defensively they are probably going to generate similar value as well. i think Pena’s pretty underrated, and if Goldy can consistently put up 2-3 WAR in the next two or three years, working at bare minimum wage, he’s going to be pretty damn valuable

of course, the dream is that with his work ethic and makeup, Goldy improves his contact rates, and turns into a 4-5 WAR 1B star. if that happens, combined with Upton and our (expected to be) vaunted pitching staff, we will be an insanely scary force in the NL

by blue bulldog on Jan 13, 2012 12:19 AM EST reply actions  

Sorry I couldn't space the paragraphs out more

I tried, but SBN had something else to say about it. Thankfully it’s not as dense – at least IMO – as some of my previous writings (on purpose).

Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.

by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 13, 2012 12:22 AM EST reply actions  

I think the suggestion somewhere between Adrian Gonzalez and Adam LaRoche

Would be acceptable to most people. :)

Nice work. I think a key factor would perhaps be age. There is every age from 21-27 represented, and I’d suspect that the younger players might be less likely to do well. Goldschmidt will be 24 next year, so I guess probably falls right in the middle of that spectrum.

"There's one rule by which I generally run my life:
What would Mothra do?"

by Jim McLennan on Jan 13, 2012 12:42 AM EST reply actions  

I'll settle

between A-Gon and Laroche!

isitspringtrainingyet.com

by imstillhungry95 on Jan 13, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

CAIRO Projection more muted

.251/.328/.458 .786 OPS, .340 wOBA 17 HR, 56 RBI in 422 PA, 42 BB, 111 K

My guess in ZIPS will come in with something similar

The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.

by shoewizard on Jan 13, 2012 8:27 AM EST reply actions  

LINK

http://www.rlyw.net/index.php/RLYW/comments/cairo_2012_v0.4

The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.

by shoewizard on Jan 13, 2012 8:28 AM EST up reply actions  

That line

with good defense would be perfectly acceptable to me. I would guess at a little more power than that, and maybe more strikeouts.

by Craig from Az on Jan 13, 2012 10:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Honestly,

I’d be completely okay with this line.

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by Zavada's Moustache on Jan 13, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Good writeup.

At the very least, Goldschmidt will give us some power out of First Base. Good enough for me.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Jan 13, 2012 12:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

So, howabout Fielder?

Projecting Goldie must raise the question of whether a team with post-season expectations can really have a chance in October if their 1st baseman is (hopefully) putting up a OPS a bit under .800.

Filling positions on the diamond must be a fluid practice, but Ive always been in favor of certain guiding principals, including (but not limited to):
At C and SS, defense comes first, and
if you are going to buy a star free agent for your team, it should be at a position where minor/nagging injuries do not utterly destroy the value of the player, ie. first base.

I really want to make a case where I condone signing a player like Fielder to put AZ into the category of elite teams heading into the next several years. Unfortunately, I just can’t pull that trigger, and I’m unsure why. I guess it has to do with the value of Goldie at league minimum, and the knowledge that we have several upside sluggers in the minors that might be suitable for 1b only. But I think at some point the Backs are going to need to purchase that final piece that solidifies the team, and Im not sure where else I would stick such an acquisition (whether it came this year or later).

by Counsellmember on Jan 13, 2012 1:27 PM EST reply actions  

I should add

the biggest reason I would favor a Fielder deal is because it looks like a buyers market right now, what with all the contending teams being set at 1b/DH. I would be perfectly comfortable with a 6 year deal if the team could raise payroll enough to cover it.

by Counsellmember on Jan 13, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure

Fielder will get something a lot better than a 6 year deal. I’m thinking at least 8 years, and possibly 10.

by blue bulldog on Jan 13, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

That actually seems unlikely

Who’s going to give someone that large eight years?

Then again, Washington IS in the bidding…

Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.

by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 13, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

The only one who goes more than 6

Is Washington, I would bet. And even they probably wouldn’t go more than 8, and I’d even call that a stretch.

Where have you gone, Greg Colbrunn?

by SenSurround on Jan 13, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

At this point I think everyone is waiting for the

Scott Boras President’s Day Sale. BIG values guaranteed!

"At times I think there are no words
But these to tell me what's true
There are no truths outside The Gates of Eden." B. Dylan

by xmet on Jan 13, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

who gives 10?

If Fielder was to put a team over the top in the next couple years, I could see it. But the few teams that seem interested (M’s, Nats……Cubs?) are at least a couple years from their prime window, just about the time his value begins to drop, possibly quickly.

I certainly may be way off, and I wouldn’t bet against a Boras client, but I am…intrigued. Then again, as I said above, I don’t think would actually do it. I think I’m just suffering from the winter baseball blues.

by Counsellmember on Jan 13, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Mariners

if I were the Mariners, I would definitely give him 8-10 years, if that guarantees Fielder signing with me

Smoak isn’t the answer at 1B. and the Mariners will field an extremely competitive team in the next couple of years. a rotation headed by King Felix, Pineda, Hultzen, Paxton. Ackley and Fielder in the middle of that lineup. there will be role players around them too. Gutierrez’s bat is not as bad as it was last year. he’s at least a 1-2 WAR player still. and at least some of the Mariner’s bat prospects will be league averagish 2 WAR guys (Nick Franklin, Vinnie Catricala, Francisco Martinez, Alex Liddi). all of those guys will have a chance to be a part of the team by 2013.

that’s what you sign Fielder for. to fortify your lineup for that 2013-2015 stretch, when Pujols starts aging, and the Angels can’t keep all their arms, and Hamilton/Napoli leaves for free agency from the Rangers.

best part is that since the Mariners are an AL team, they can afford longer years for Fielder because they can move him over to DH.

by blue bulldog on Jan 13, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

that isn't even including discussion of

Taijuan Walker, who is considered by some their best pitching prospect (though he’s farther away). imagine if they packaged Walker and traded for another 3-4 WAR bat?

by blue bulldog on Jan 13, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Well I think this view may have just changed a bit

Bye bye Pineda, hello Jesus Montero.

Where have you gone, Greg Colbrunn?

by SenSurround on Jan 13, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Seems like

now they’re really gonna need Paxton/Walker/Hultzen to be able to pick up the slack of not having an awesome Michael Pineda lying around. We are doing the same thing here in a way, but having two above average starters locked in instead of one makes the stress of those prospects panning out more vital methinks.

Do you still think they pull out of the Fielder derby now? Or are they gonna dump Smoak completely and try to play mish mash mix em up with Fielder and Montero at 1B/DH?

Where have you gone, Greg Colbrunn?

by SenSurround on Jan 13, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I think they came to their senses

and took a better route. Last I heard was the Texas was talking to Fielder.

"At times I think there are no words
But these to tell me what's true
There are no truths outside The Gates of Eden." B. Dylan

by xmet on Jan 13, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't know

it definitely changes the equation

Mariners with that awesome pitching at the top and Fielder makes more sense to me, but it’s not like Fielder is out of the realm of possibility. At least the Mariners got Noesi, who should be a cheap back-end of the rotation option. Walker’s not going to be in the majors until 2014 at the earliest. He was in A ball all of last year, and two years for A+/AA/AAA sounds about right.

If they’re gutsy, they could still go after Fielder. Middle of the lineup of Ackley, Fielder, Montero would be pretty damn scary. And a 2013 rotation of Felix, Paxton, Hultzen, Noesi is still good.

I don’t know how I feel about the trade though. Montero is probably going to be really good. But is he that good? I guess for the Mariners and their park, it makes sense to go after a good, young, cheap, hitter like Montero. But at the end of the day, he’s still probably a DH.

I feel like the deal only makes sense if the Mariners are much more worried about Pineda getting injured than they’ve let on.

by blue bulldog on Jan 13, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

to add on

it’s just hard to be valuable as a DH

Ortiz hit wRC+ of over 150 last year, and still was only worth 4 WAR

by blue bulldog on Jan 13, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

boy, yeah

I don’t really care for that trade on the Mariner’s side.

But, it’s interesting. I actually think Fielder makes more sense for them now. You’ve got to get Montero a partner in that lineup, and with Felix leading the staff you know it’s going to be OK.

Wow, Fielder to the Ms would make this division a great one to watch this year.

by Counsellmember on Jan 13, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

on the excitement

i hope Fielder goes to the M’s just because of excitement factor alone. that’s one stacked division. i even think Oakland has a decent long-term future, as long as they can just get that damn San Jose deal locked down.

poor Astros lol

by blue bulldog on Jan 13, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

fwiw

(not much)

i’m pretty confident in Paxton and Hultzen ending up as above average starters

i don’t think they are that far off from Bauer/Skaggs

Paxton in particular. his numbers this past year were just absolutely torrid. and it’s not like he’s got bad scouting reports.

by blue bulldog on Jan 13, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Smoak isn't the answer?

His hand was injured a lot of last year and he’s entering his age-25 season. A bit harsh, no?

And with Jesus Montero now locked in as DH for the next six years, there’s no way to slide Fielder over.

Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.

by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 14, 2012 1:55 AM EST up reply actions  

it probably was a bit harsh

but let’s face it……he was a very highly ranked 1B prospect. that means he was supposed to sparkle, and definitely sparkle before hitting age 25. 25 is pretty old, when it comes to establishing a foothold in the majors, especially as a 1B.

he’s had 900 PA, and really not much sparkle. the biggest problem is that the gap to gap power that was supposed to make him a good fit with the Mariners has left him with only a 150ish ISO. and he’s had consistently bad BABIP. for ppl who still believe in Smoak, this upcoming season may be his last chance to prove himself a major league regular.

as for Montero locked in as DH, like i mentioned above, that does put a huge wrinkle in the “Sign Fielder” plan. still, Fielder should be able to stay at 1B for the next four years, and Montero will only be there for six, so the problem is really just a two year overlap. and if it really is a problem, then just trade Montero (because if it’s a problem, then Montero probably has value at DH, and if it’s not a problem, then Montero sucks, you can slot Fielder in at DH anyway, and you’ve probably got other problems to worry about).

and if the Mariners really do want to win in 2013-2014……you have to admit with a core of Ackley, Montero, Fielder, Franklin (on offense) and Felix, Paxton, Hultzen, Noesi (on pitching) has to look really good. Angels will have Trout up by then, but i really expect Pujols to start regressing soon, and i don’t think they will be able to keep Haren and Santana. Rangers will also likely be losing Hamilton to free agency, and maybe Napoli.

wouldn’t that just be an awesome AL West race?

by blue bulldog on Jan 14, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

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