Diamondbacks Playoff Odds Revisited
About three weeks ago, shoewizard wrote a Fanpost looking at the Diamondbacks' play-off odds, which Baseball Prospectus then rated at an unimpressive 3.6%, as we sat four games back of the Giants. Here's what he wrote:
Giants at 58-43 have a .574 Win %. If they maintain that pace the rest of the season they finish 93-69. The D Backs at 54-47 have a .535 Win %. To finish with 94 wins they have to go 40-21 the rest of the way, which is a .656 Pace! So the Giants better slow down or we have no chance.
Ask and ye shall receive. Since then, we've gone 12-6, while San Francisco has gone 6-12, and we are now two games ahead of them as a result. Let's revisit the numbers the rest of the way, now the boot is on the other foot...
Scenario 1: Diamondbacks maintain current Win % (.555).
At that pace, we would go 90-72. To finish with 91 wins, the Giants would need to go 27-16 the rest of the way. That's a .628 W%: Only the Phillies have managed that in the NL; the second-best W% is the Atlanta Braves .588. To put those 27 wins further into context, the Giants have achieved that number only over their last 53 games, having gone 27-26. That's ten more than they have left to play.
Things are made more interesting by the fact that we have six games left against the Giants. With Arizona currently in the lead, simply playing the Giants even in those contests would work in our favor, since it would mean six fewer games in which San Francisco would catch up. Let's assume, for the purposes of thought, that the D-backs play .555 baseball over the 37 games against non-Giants. That would give us 20.5 additional wins, putting us on 86.5 wins before playing SF. The list below shows what the Giants would need to do in their 37 non-Dbacks games to beat us, based on the result of their games against us.
- If we go 6-0 (92.5 wins), SF has to go 29-8
- If we go 5-1 (91.5 wins), SF has to go 27-10
- If we go 4-2 (90.5 wins), SF has to go 25-12
- If we go 3-3 (89.5 wins), SF has to go 23-14
- If we go 2-4 (88.5 wins), SF has to go 21-16
- If we go 1-5 (87.5 wins), SF has to go 19-18
- If we go 0-6 (86.5 wins), SF has to go 17-19
The Giants current W% of .538 is 20-17 over 37 games. So if they did that in the match-ups against other teams, we could lose both series, going 2-4, and still win the West. We no longer need to beat them head-to-head. Simply holding our own, at the current paces for both sides, will be sufficient. Of course, defeating them would make their task close to impossible, requiring them to win two out of every three games against everyone else.
Scenario 2: Diamondbacks maintain current Pythagorean W% (.520).
The Diamondbacks have, to some extent, over-performed. Based on their runs scored and allowed, the Pyhtagorean W% says they would be expected to have won about four games less than they have. This is largely due to Arizona's excellent record of 22-13 in one-run games; those are generally thought to be a random outcome. Now, the Giants have over-performed to an ever greater degree - Pythag projects them to have won six less games - but let's assume just that Arizona drops back to .520. That would be 22 wins, giving them 88. To reach 89, the Giants would still need to go 25-18. That .581 W%, is still well ahead of their current .538.
Repeating the exercise described above for the Giants series, what do we find? .520 over 37 non-Giants games is a 19-18 record, putting them at 85 wins, plus the games against San Francisco
- If we go 6-0 (91 wins), SF has to go 28-9
- If we go 5-1 (90 wins), SF has to go 26-11
- If we go 4-2 (89 wins), SF has to go 24-13
- If we go 3-3 (88 wins), SF has to go 22-15
- If we go 2-4 (87 wins), SF has to go 20-17
- If we go 1-5 (86 wins), SF has to go 18-19
- If we go 0-6 (85 wins), SF has to go 16-21
It really doesn't make very much difference - San Francisco only has to win one game less, if the Diamondbacks were to regress to their Pythagorean record. And going 2-4 head-to-head would still leave the Giants needing to improve on the current, "lucky" [per Pythagoras] W% in order to come out on top.
Scenario 3: Diamondbacks play .500 ball.
As a final estimate, let's say Arizona simply plays even down the stretch, splitting the remaining 43 games. That's 21.5 wins, taking them to 87.5. To reach 88, the Giants still need to go 24-19, which works out at a .558 W%, twenty points better than they've done to date. And crunching the numbers as before, for the head-to-head games: 18.5 wins in the 37 non-Giants encounters = 84.5 wins, so:
- If we go 6-0 (90.5 wins), SF has to go 27-10
- If we go 5-1 (89.5 wins), SF has to go 25-12
- If we go 4-2 (88.5 wins), SF has to go 23-14
- If we go 3-3 (87.5 wins), SF has to go 21-16
- If we go 2-4 (86.5 wins), SF has to go 19-18
- If we go 1-5 (85.5 wins), SF has to go 17-20
- If we go 0-6 (84.5 wins), SF has to go 15-22
This is slightly more favorable for San Francisco, in that if we play .500 ball against the rest of the league, and go 2-4 against them, the Giants only need an 19-18 record elsewhere to take the division.
Conclusion
The boot is truly on the other foot now. It's San Francisco who need to be saying, "The Diamondbacks better slow down, or we have no chance." And yet, despite all this, Baseball Prospectus still gives the Giants a 74.4% chance of winning the division. Can we say "thoroughly discredited," children? I know I can... CoolStandings.com, on the other hand, has Arizona at 62.2% favorites for the NL West, which seems much more credible.
However, there are still 43 games left and we've seen how quickly things can turn. A bad patch for Arizona could certainly switch the tables back in San Francisco's favor, just as the Giants' implosion over the past three weeks has done so for the Diamondbacks. But, for now, the good news is that we no longer need to improve or hope for our rival to start losing, because both have already happened. Simply playing the way we have been, going forward, will likely be enough to take the Arizona Diamondbacks to the NL West title.
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The great thing about being in first place
Is that it means other people have to catch up. We can just keep doing what we’re doing.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
Yes.
And while ‘doing what we’re doing’ is a whole lot of fun for the players, playing catch up is not nearly as much fun, and a much greater strain.
"The wise writer, I think, writes for the youth of his own generation, the critic of the next and the schoolmasters of ever afterward." F. Scott Fitzgerald.
by NASCARbernet on Aug 13, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
it’s easier for the players to relax, especially now with a couple game buffer. Coincidentally, being relaxed while playing most of the positions in baseball (and hitting) produces better results. So this could be a really good thing for the team.
Tomorrow is another day.
I'd much rather
not have them relax. Two games is not a huge lead.
by CaptainCanuck on Aug 13, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Not relaxed
like they don’t care, relaxed like letting the game come to them instead of always pushing and causing mistakes.
Tomorrow is another day.
Beltran to DL...
Brandon Belt is apparently going to Miami, meaning Beltran is probably heading to DL…that’s what you get for Zach Wheeler haha
Brian Sabean, ladies and gentlemen!
"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson
"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.
by Sabean's_Folly on Aug 13, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
sports club stats
has us at 68.4%
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
- Follow me on the Twitter for worthless thoughts and IU updates.
what else is funny is that the Rockies had a 80+% chance of the playoffs in may
their chances now? .2%
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
- Follow me on the Twitter for worthless thoughts and IU updates.
lol
nobody should have an 80% chance to the playoffs in May
by blue bulldog on Aug 13, 2011 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Great write-up
It’s what I’ve been saying, and I think everyone has been thinking, for awhile: the Diamondbacks just need to keep winning series. They don’t need to be perfect, they don’t even need to be amazing. Just stay on an above .500 pace, and things are looking very favorable.
Tomorrow is another day.
Nice except
If we have anymore major injuries like Nady and Drew we could be screwed. Young and Johnson need to start hitting.now on a regular basis. This upcomming road trip will tell pretty much how we will do. Go luck guys you are in the drivers seat drive on.
Nady isn't a major injury
if anything, a Nady injury probably improves our future win probability
by blue bulldog on Aug 13, 2011 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't let
mrssoco hear you talking like that. She won’t like it at all.
DROOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! WHHYYYYYYYYY!!!!
by imstillhungry95 on Aug 13, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Erm...
the dude was hitting worse than Juan Miranda, Geoff Blum, Wily and Willie, Barry Enright(not to mention Daniel Hudson) and Lyle Overbay while with the Pirates.
WAR isn’t everything, of course, but as a batter, he’s hurt the team as much as Armando Galarraga did.
Goldschmidt happens.
Also, LOL Baseball Prospectus.
The Giants will be lucky to find their collective asses with both hands, a 10,000 watt halogen light and a magnifying glass. Also, Bruce Bochy, despite LEADING THE GIANTS TO A WORLD SERIES VICTORY!! is not very bright.
"It feels awesome. Feels like when you were a kid and every guy gets a chance to be a hero, then you eat orange slices and kool-aid after the game. Except we’re nailing champagne right now." —Brian Wilson
"He just threw me a fastball in and I just put a good swing on the ball, and you know when you put a good swing on the ball, the ball go out."
-Egdar Renteria commenting on his solo home run in the 5th inning of Game 2.
by Sabean's_Folly on Aug 13, 2011 5:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I like you
we have similar interests, like making fun of the Giants
DROOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! WHHYYYYYYYYY!!!!
by imstillhungry95 on Aug 13, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair
A light that bright would probably be somewhat blinding.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
Not to mention
that, depending on the distance, a 10kW halogen bulb might inflict 2nd degree burns on said ass.
Goldschmidt happens.
The strangest thing of all
Is not only does Baseball Prospectus have SF with a 75% chance of winning the division, they’re somehow projecting Arizona to finish below .500. Even if the Giants end up winning the division, the Dbacks would have to have an ‘07 Mets-esque collapse to lose more games than they’ve won.
by The so-called Beautiful on Aug 13, 2011 7:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Wait.... really?
They really project us to finish below .500? You are talking about, like, right now, right? They right now project this?
So, they think we are only going to win about 12-14 more games this season? Talk about thoroughly discredited.
I don’t even want to think about the 07 Mets collapse. :shudder: No, no way.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/odds/
Maybe I’m reading the chart wrong, but under “Expected Win Pct” it has Arizona at .477. Unless those are just what they predicted at the beginning of the season. Actually, yeah that must be it because they’re showing Colorado at .507. Ignore me please.
by The so-called Beautiful on Aug 13, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Might be the expected W% the rest of the way?
Daron "...the D. Baxter fan-club"
Mark: "A non-profit organization."
by Jim McLennan on Aug 13, 2011 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
For a bit of insight,
BP’s power rankings, which use 1. actual runs scored/runs allowed, 2. “projected” runs scored/allowed, and 3. “adjusted” runs scored/allowed, based on neutral schedule, put us as the 8th best team in MLB, with the Giants 5th and Rockies 7th.
Goldschmidt happens.
Also,
PLEASE don’t bring up the 2007 Mets.
As unlikely as that sort of nosedive might be, I don’t want to be reminded that it’s absolutely possible, and how.
Goldschmidt happens.
Jus-Tin Up-Ton!
Bring in RyRo!
DROOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! WHHYYYYYYYYY!!!!
by imstillhungry95 on Aug 13, 2011 8:21 PM EDT reply actions
Whoops
wrong thread…
DROOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! WHHYYYYYYYYY!!!!
by imstillhungry95 on Aug 13, 2011 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
There's never a wrong thread for that.
:-)
Daron "...the D. Baxter fan-club"
Mark: "A non-profit organization."
by Jim McLennan on Aug 13, 2011 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
BP rest of season is based off their Pecota for rest of season
while this seasons numbers YTD will of course impact Pecota rest of year projections, the last 2-3 season still count in their projections too.
So their player projection system for the rest of the year is what is driving their playoff odds report.
At the beginning of the year the d backs probably had about a .450 expected win %…(not sure exactly….just guessing) So a .477 expected win % means that the player projections have been positively impacted by whats happened this year.
Meanwhile, the Giants probably had an expected win % heading into the season somewhere around . .555, they are still projected to win at a .554 clip the rest of the way.
When the BP system sims out the rest of the season, the Giants end up with 89 wins and the d backs 86.
I’m not saying the Pecota projections are being adjusted properly for the rest of season……but it’s probably not as bad a projection as some here think.
This current odds in their report, as incredulous as they may make us feel, do not completely “discredit” their playoff odds report. But it probably does show what an outlier this team, and really this division are this year. Lots of strange goings on
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
I should add
Pecota is probably having a hard time catching up to Aubrey Huff’s collapse. ;)
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
Yeah.
By definition, career years are repeatable…right? Like, over an entire career?
Goldschmidt happens.
Maybe
they should adjust their model in the middle of the season, instead of assuming the Giants will magically start winning at a .555 clip, or that the Diamondbacks will suddenly collapse.
Tomorrow is another day.
They do, apparently.
They update projections. They just don’t, perhaps, weigh things reliably. But while they’ll slightly adjust individual projections, they reject the idea that teams as a whole can over or underperform their underlying numbers. They see a team as the sum of its parts, nothing more. I think that’s generally a good criticism of many sabermetricians, though. They have trouble seeing the forest for the trees, and when teams like the 2010 Padres “collapse”, it only reinforces that belief.
Part of the problem is that BP stubbornly refuses to explain their actual formula, like it’s some sort of secret weapon, so nobody outside BP REALLY knows the exact recipe.
It’s like Coca Cola, but if Coca Cola actually tasted like crap.
Goldschmidt happens.
This current odds in their report, as incredulous as they may make us feel, do not completely "discredit" their playoff odds report.
No, really. If, as appears to be the case here, you make projections at the beginning of the year, and then refuse to update those in light of 120+ games-worth of actual,. real results… Then, I’m afraid any conclusions drawn are absolutely discredited. It’s a horribly flawed methodology that deserves every bit of scorn thrown its way.
Daron "...the D. Baxter fan-club"
Mark: "A non-profit organization."
by Jim McLennan on Aug 15, 2011 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't necessarily discredit
the methodology. Just means it should maybe be tweaked. (Maybe by quite a bit)
Goldschmidt happens.
I think BP's main beef
is that, by their count, we should’ve scored fewer runs and allowed more, based on homers hit/given up, walks taken/issued, etc.
Goldschmidt happens.
Just to
include the last 2 games’ results:
Our win % is now .562. SF’s is .545. Our pythag is .521, theirs is .488.
We have a 91-71 pace. They’d need to go 26-15 to win 92 games, a .634.
Goldschmidt happens.
Fun fact.
BP now projects a HIGHER chance (75.6%) that the Giants win the division after having won 2 games, despite the Dbacks also winning 2.
They’re predicting the Dbacks go 20-21 the rest of the way, and the Giants go 23-18, which would, of course, give the Giants the division by a game.
Goldschmidt happens.
Good news!
After last night’s loss and the Dbacks’ idleness, the Giants’ division win % is now down to 72.4%!!
Goldschmidt happens.
by DbacksSkins on Aug 16, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions

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