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Around SBN: How The Kings Beat The Coyotes: Lather, Rinse, Repeat

The Joy of Pitch F/X: Measuring Movement


This post was inspired by a long exchange of commentary between me and Baltimor over the game-winning home run Wily Mo Pena hit against David Purcey of the Detroit Tigers on a hanging slider.


Will try to add some pretty graphs and pictures of dots eventually...but for now you'll just have to be satisfied with this picture and my basic explanations.

Star-divide

Terminology

The major understanding problem everyone has to deal with when trying to understand pitch f/x is the terminology. Terms like movement and spin get thrown around a lot, and people (or at least, me) just end up getting really confused over what the heck everyone is talking about. Really, movement should be broken down into two types of movement. Let's call this "real movement" and "differential movement". Real movement is the movement you see in real life, on TV, or as a batter. Real movement is caused by a huge number of factors, the most important of which is probably spin, gravity, and velocity, but it's also affected by humidity, temperature, wind and release point of the pitch. Differential movement, on the other hand, only shows the movement difference between a pitch with no spin, and the real pitch. The prime example is a fastball. A fastball has positive vertical "differential movement" because it is thrown with backspin (this is universally true), which means that compared to a pitch with zero vertical spin, the ball will "move up." The only thing differential movement measures is the effect of spin on a pitch's movement.

 

Fastballs vs. Sliders (Or What I Like to Call, Choose Your Own Pitching Adventure)

Now let's think about fastballs and sliders. Let's say you throw a four-seam fastball, and you throw it at 70 mph (because in this story, you're Jamie Moyer). Lo and behold, when you throw it, it looks like a curveball. You're like, wait, what's going on? I definitely threw a fastball, so why did it arc in the air, and die at the plate like the curveballs I see on TV? That's because there's not enough velocity to counteract the force of gravity, which naturally makes the pitch take an arc-like shape.

Now you magically turn into Justin Verlander and throw a 100 mph fastball. And it moves in a straight line towards the plate. There's no vertical movement at all. Why? Because the backspin on the fastball and the initial velocity balances out the force of gravity.

So then you turned into Randy Johnson and said to yourself....okay. I want a pitch that moves. But I want that pitch to be fast as hell. How do I go about doing this? If I throw a 90 mph fastball, then again, the backspin and velocity will cancel out too much of the force of gravity, and my pitch won't have any "real movement". Let's face it, major league hitters are too good...they will easily hit my fastballs if they move in a straight line towards home plate. But I don't want to throw a 70 mph fastball, which has a lot of "real movement" but no velocity, because again, major league hitters are too good and pitches with no velocity, even with a ton of "real movement", end up getting hammered.

So, you fiddle around with grips and pressure points on the baseball, and BAM, you come up with the slider, an oftentimes "spinless" pitch. The slider still has plenty of velocity (especially with guys like Randy Johnson), but it's able to generate "real movement" because without any spin, the velocity alone is not able to counteract the force of gravity. So the pitch "breaks" when it heads towards home plate.

 

Graphing Movement

When pitch f/x graphs show movement, what they are actually measuring is "differential movement". That's why breaking balls tend to hover around zero movement for at least one of the axis. The easiest pitch to recognize on a movement chart is the 12-6 curveball. This is because the 12-6 curveball has zero horizontal differential movement (hence, it looks like it goes from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock) and it is the only pitch to have negative vertical differential movement, because it is the only pitch thrown with topspin, which adds onto the effects of gravity, to make the pitch break heavily in the vertical direction.

Sliders though are much more difficult to predict, because they can be pretty unique to each individual pitcher. The key lesson to take though, is that the movement graphs for pitch f/x are not capable of indicating whether a slider was "good or bad". Spinless sliders are very normal for some pitchers, because that's just how they want to throw their sliders. And spinless sliders doesn't mean the pitch doesn't move in real life, it just means the pitch didn't move any differently from any other pitch that was spinless (naturally).

And the lesson to be taken from the Wily Mo Pena home run, is that any 82 mph pitch that stays up in the zone and inside to a monster pull hitter, regardless of whether it has spin (fastball) or doesn't have spin (slider in this case), is a very very bad pitch.

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my apologies to baltimor

previously, was trying to explain fastball movement, and i said fastballs are thrown with topspin. total mistake on my part. i meant to say fastballs are thrown with backspin.

also….what the heck? how come i can’t add two pictures to a post? i wanted one of wily mo pena also…………………..

by blue bulldog on Jun 26, 2011 4:23 AM EDT reply actions  

You can add multiple pics

Just not through the AP tool, for licensing reasons. We also have access to the Getty Images library. Do you have the details for that?

Daron "...the D. Baxter fan-club"
Mark: "A non-profit organization."

by Jim McLennan on Jun 26, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

nope

how do I do the Getty Images thing?

by blue bulldog on Jun 26, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, right

Check your email. ;-)

Daron "...the D. Baxter fan-club"
Mark: "A non-profit organization."

by Jim McLennan on Jun 26, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice explanation

It seems counter-intuitive that sliders are “no spin” pitches, but I guess it makes sense.

Daron "...the D. Baxter fan-club"
Mark: "A non-profit organization."

by Jim McLennan on Jun 26, 2011 5:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't understand it either

the no spin pitches I know are the knuckleball, the fork ball, and the palm ball. Every slider I’ve ever seen has spin and the tighter the eye, the more likely it is to break to the side. But I’m sure he knows what he’s talking about.

An ancient Roman sculpture accurately predicting the torture of Giants fandom.

by NASCARbernet on Jun 26, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I guess calling a slider a “spinless” pitch is a bit misleading. It’s not so much that the slider doesn’t have spin. I think it’s just that the slider’s spin is in line with its axis of rotation (or something like that….honestly I don’t know the physics well enough).

But the point is that the grip on the slider/way you throw it does something to the baseball that causes it to behave like a “spinless” pitch. That’s how you can get it to break (less force to counteract gravity) instead of moving in a straight line (enough force to counteract gravity).

by blue bulldog on Jun 27, 2011 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is what you mean

That the slider doesn’t spin backwards or forwards, but side-to-side? That side-to-side spinning would have little to no effect on gravity’s effect on the pitch, thus allowing it to both be moved downward by gravity and to the side by the ball’s spin against natural air resistance and whatnot. So “spinless” refers to how the balls spin has no effect on its vertical movement.

Founder and Chairman of the Hire A Manager's Assistant For Kirk Gibson Commission. A non-profit organization.
Founder and Chairman of the Hire A Body Double For David Hernandez's Right Arm Commission. A non-profit organization.

by Dan Strittmatter on Jun 27, 2011 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

not necessarily though

because some sliders (for real) behave as if they have zero vertical AND horizontal spin (David Purcey’s sliders)

by blue bulldog on Jun 27, 2011 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty literal

and I remember seeing the spin on a pitch, thinking it was a curve thanks to it’s spin eye, but it was a slider and I couldn’t adjust fast enough, so that is why I expressed surprise at the paradoxical description of a slider as ‘spinless.’

An ancient Roman sculpture accurately predicting the torture of Giants fandom.

by NASCARbernet on Jun 27, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let me try this

The advantage of the slider is not how much movement it has versus a spinless ball, but WHEN the movement occurs.

That is pitch f/x measures the movement from the release point to where the pitch crosses the plate. I could be wrong and please correct me, but it does not tell us how it got there. My experience and I asked a couple of friend who played or coached at higher levels is the late break on the slider is what is devastating. I can’t call Dr. Adair about this and before I call my MIT friends (who I don’t understand 75% of the time), tell me if this is stupid.

I will note that a slider is NOT spinless. It may wind up at the same place as a splinelss ball, but every pitcher tries to put spin on it.

If my questions in the the thread that bb mentions can be answered it would be appreciated. Thanks

by baltimor on Jun 27, 2011 3:36 AM EDT reply actions  

Let me add

that this is assuming that pitch shown is correct as the relative movement. BB told me in the other thread that pitch f/x could could be trusted and was not accurate in its charts. Can we assume that it is accurate it its pitch movements?

I have found pitch f/x to be correspond very well on the ball/strike locations so I am a big fan; but if their data says that slider is the same as a spinless ball, I am going to depart from them

by baltimor on Jun 27, 2011 4:04 AM EDT reply actions  

there are error margins on the pitch movements at well

so it’s important to take those with a grain of salt…

not pitch to pitch, as the relative movements and location of pitches is pretty accurate. but park to park, game to game, depending on conditions, the baseball may actually not move or locate compared to a previous game, even though the pitcher did the exact same thing

i’m not sure though why you think a slider shouldn’t behave like a spinless ball though? i feel like i’m just not explaining it well enough. gravity and release point are soooooo important when it comes to baseball in motion. seriously though, if you just throw a baseball normally using a four-seam grip, you’ll see that it breaks, because you don’t throw it fast enough (i assume you don’t pump 90 mph or w/e). so basically, the slider’s purpose is to make sure it has the same break that a random person’s fastball would, but have elite velocity. i think that’s the easiest way to think about it.

by blue bulldog on Jun 27, 2011 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe I am starting to understand

“so basically, the slider’s purpose is to make sure it has the same break that a random person’s fastball would, but have elite velocity. i think that’s the easiest way to think about it.”

This makes some sense in that the pitch acts differently than the hitter would expect. So just to be clear, the pitch f/x horizontal v. vertical graph shows the movement as compared to a spinless ball thrown at the speed of a random person’s fastball?

My confusion came from thinking that pitch f/x showed the movement compared to a ball without spin thrown at the same speed as the pitch it was charting. I understand that all balls have movement due to gravity. However, it is a regular predictable movement. It is taken for granted and the hitter adjusts without really thinking about it. I had thought the purpose of putting spin on a ball was to change how it acted as compared to a pitch whose movement was only affected by gravity.

by baltimor on Jun 27, 2011 12:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Some more info on sliders

The page on wikipedia does a great job of explaining what a slider is in terms of spin and movement. The takeaway for me is that there is a continuum from fastball to slurve, and the slider exists on the right side of that continuum. Also, continuum is a fun word to spell.

A good slider is devastating for a lot of the same reasons as a good changeup. The arm action looks like a fastball, but the velocity and movement are just different enough from a fastball that the hitter is fooled. He sees fastball arm angle, fastball grip, and fastball follow through, anticipates fastball speed and path, and starts to swing. By the time he realizes the pitch is not a fastball, it is too late to compensate.

The spin on the slider can give the pitch away, since it produces a visual red dot somewhere on the front half of the ball. A good MLB hitter has fast enough hands and good enough technique that he can start the early portion of his swing without “committing” to hitting a fastball, and adjust (or check) his swing appropriately if he sees the red dot.

A good MLB hitter can also crush more or less any pitch that comes through the strike zone belt high or higher. Willy Mo has a reputation as a mistake punisher, and the result of this pitch is a data point in favor of that reputation.

Maybe we should just go sledding.

by skoormit on Jun 27, 2011 2:00 PM EDT reply actions  

That's pretty good

a similar ‘dot’ (or ‘eye’) appears on a curve ball, which is usually substantially slower than a slider. If the batter thinks its a slider is a curve, he may hold off swinging, only to have the slider slip past him for a called strike.

Nice write up, blue bulldog. :-)

An ancient Roman sculpture accurately predicting the torture of Giants fandom.

by NASCARbernet on Jun 27, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

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