Buster Posey and Schadenfreude
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 7:00 PM EDT
in Randomness
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PrintRight now you are down and out and feelin' really crappy.
And when I see how sad you are, it sorta makes me happy.
Sorry. Human nature - nothing I can do.
It's schadenfreude, making me feel glad that I'm not you.
-- Avenue Q
I'm not sure how many times I've watched the collision between Scott Cousins and Buster Posey from last night's Marlins-Giants game, but it's not something that gets any easier to view. Ankles are just not supposed to bend that way, and I get a queasy feeling when watching them do so, in super slo-mo, from eight different angles. [So much for horror movies desensitizing the viewer, at least to anything except other horror movies].
But, let's be brutally honest. While on one level, it's a terrible thing, there's a dark corner of just about every non-Giant fan which woke up this morning, read that Posey could be out for the season and gave a little fist-pump. Because their team's chances of dethroning the Giants as World Series champions just got a little bit better.
Does that make us bad people? Yes and no. An intrinsic part of the adversarial nature of sports and fandom, is that bad things happening to the opposition are as uplifting as good things happening to you. No-one would think less of you for enjoying the fact that Troy Tulowitzki is 1-for-the-year against the Diamondbacks, and that's what makes the future lack of Posey heartwarming. - that's he'll be replaced by a much less competent player. That's what matters. The injury is actually irrelevant. I'd be just as pleased if his enforced absence from the line-up was due to, oh, I dunno, a prison sentence for white-collar fraud.
That's a very important distinction. My satisfaction does not stem from Posey's broken leg. It's the weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts to be witnessed coming from Giants' fans. Their agony is my ecstacy, and I don't feel very guilty about wallowing in that at all. I'm pretty sure they were hardly sending over baskets of fruit when the Diamondbacks lost the - arguably more valuable - Brandon Webb for two seasons. And they enjoyed almost freakish health last year, becoming the first NL team since the '97 Braves to have four starters make 33+ starts. Turning that luck into a crown makes this feel like the baseball gods administering justice.
Per Wikipedia, "Brain-scanning studies show that schadenfreude is correlated with envy. Strong feelings of envy activated physical pain nodes in the brain's dorsal anterior cingulate cortex; the brain's reward centers, such as the ventral striatum, were activated by news that the people envied had suffered misfortune. The magnitude of the brain's schadenfreude response could even be predicted from the strength of the previous envy response." From an evolutionary aspect, you can see its purpose too. As a Scientific American piece last year said:
The world is a competitive place, and an individual benefits, for instance, when a sexual competitor breaks
a leg or a hunting rival falls ill. "Anytime someone suffers a misfortune, that's an opportunity," says social psychologist Richard H. Smith of the University of Kentucky. "Life is essentially relativistic; [others'] misfortunes are good for the self."
It's easy to see where the envy comes from. Few things are better for a team, than young. cheap, exceptional talent. And few things are more likely to irritate supporters of opposing teams, than someone else's young, cheap, exceptional talent. The feelings of envy that result are entirely natural: imagine how Pirates fans, say, feel watching Posey lead to the Giants to last year's World Series title, knowing that he was still on the board when they picked, um, Pedro Alvarez. Indeed, that World Series title helps fuel the envy: if he'd been the Astros' top player, would anyone have noticed cared?
"There will never be a perfect storm like this again," wrote Grant Brisbee. "Posey is a guy who helped break an organizational drought for hitters and championships, he played a position that the fans were repeatedly told was almost impossible to do well, and he is possibly the most likable personality on the team, combining perfect amounts of seriousness and charm in a goofy clubhouse." To which I reply, succinctly: "Suck it, Giants fans. Suck it long. And suck it hard." I didn't notice an angst-ridden piece from Brisbee when divisional rival Jorge de la Rosa was lost for the year, So don't expect any sympathy when you lose your young stud.
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What does Schadenfreude mean?
"There are 3 types of baseball players: those who make it happen, those who watch it happen, & those who wonder what happens." -Tommy Lasorda
"When you want to win a game, you have to teach. When you lose a game, you have to learn." ~Tom Landry
It's German
For “Happiness at the misfortune of others.”
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
See
That musical is educational.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
I've been wondering
How it’ll go on now that one of the characters IN the show is, uh, dead now.
Bad doormat! No stock options!
From what I recall
They said they aren’t going to take the character out, but they’re redoing a bit of the dialogue.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
That's just not me
Yeah, I may despise the Giants, but I can’t sit back and smile at the injury misfortune of others. It’s not in my heart to be that way nor will it ever be. My heart goes out to the injured rather than turning my back on them. That is and always will be the caring side of me though.
"There are 3 types of baseball players: those who make it happen, those who watch it happen, & those who wonder what happens." -Tommy Lasorda
"When you want to win a game, you have to teach. When you lose a game, you have to learn." ~Tom Landry
by Rockkstarr12 on May 26, 2011 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
As noted
It’s not the injury that I smile at. It’s the angst of Giants fans. Particularly after they complained their way through last season whining about “torture”.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
They complain about ANYTHING
"There are 3 types of baseball players: those who make it happen, those who watch it happen, & those who wonder what happens." -Tommy Lasorda
"When you want to win a game, you have to teach. When you lose a game, you have to learn." ~Tom Landry
by Rockkstarr12 on May 26, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
One of those words
For which there is no easy English single-word equivalent. Like “spaghetti”
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Dunno
I don’t think there’s any schadenfreude in Fort Wailord. As much as I hate the Giants, I can’t in any way be happy about a young player’s injury in his first full year. I think having these all-pro young guns in the game is great for baseball as a whole. I don’t know if it’s because it’s the first batch of players I can really “grow up with” or what, but watching Posey claw at the dirt due to the incredible pain he was suffering makes it just about impossible to feel an ounce of happiness. Just my two cents.
My value over a replacement poster is approximately 10.5 runs.
by Wailord on May 26, 2011 7:24 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Well said, Ryan!
"There are 3 types of baseball players: those who make it happen, those who watch it happen, & those who wonder what happens." -Tommy Lasorda
"When you want to win a game, you have to teach. When you lose a game, you have to learn." ~Tom Landry
by Rockkstarr12 on May 26, 2011 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to question your opinion
But as a philisophical question; if the Dbacks win the division a game over the Giants, will you take pleasure in that? Isn’t that what we’re talking about here? Their pain is to our advatage.
by Counsellmember on May 26, 2011 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
of course!
sadly(?) now they won’t be crying at full strength, however.
that is always my wish, but then, i’m only half german.
pride is the last to go before the foul.
Well
I think it’s a bit more circumstantial than just the Giants being one game worse. I do understand that the post is saying (yay @ Giants getting worse, not the injury specifically), but I don’t think that the two can be looked at separately. There’s really no scenario where I can take any pleasure from a player getting injured, and while some may just say, “woohoo, an opponent/rival of ours just got worse!”, I can’t.
My value over a replacement poster is approximately 10.5 runs.
It's not
all about numbers. It’s not all about the Giants losing 4.5 WAR or whatever. It’s about a kid breaking his leg and being in severe pain.
You can’t separate such things. If we were in the same division as the Angels, would you have celebrated when Nick Adenhart was hit by the drunk driver?
HEY, FRENCHY! STAR TREK OR STAR WARS?
by DbacksSkins on May 26, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
+1
to me it’s hard to separate the two. i mean, sure, at the end of the year if the Dbacks beat the Giants by like one or two games, and we end up making the playoffs i’m going to be happy that we made the playoffs, even whilst knowing that the difference between us making the playoffs and not making the playoffs was likely Buster Posey’s injury.
but right now, i just feel bad that baseball in general lost an amazing talent
by blue bulldog on May 26, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Not exactly the same
This is not a Nick Adenhart situation. Posey, as far as I have read reported, is not suffering a career threatening injury, let alone dead. Injuries are a part of baseball. I absolutely hope he recovers fully into the huge talent that he was, but I’ll admit to being somewhat excited about the sudden increase in the Diamondback’s chances of making the playoffs. AZ has dealt with it for the last two years, now COL and SF have to weather the same setbacks.
A few of you have said you can’t seperate the injury from the numbers. That’s cool. I can seperate them. People are different and I’m pretty OK with how I feel too.
Buster, nothing personal. Best of luck in your recovery.
by Counsellmember on May 27, 2011 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree totally
I obviously love the Diamondbacks with a passion,why else would I stay up all night? But no,not even a corner of my heart is glad when some player gets hurt.
☣ "I like to keep a bottle of stimulant handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy." ☣
by hotclaws on May 26, 2011 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Brisbee
wasn’t telling Rockies fans to “suck it” either. I get that you’re happy the Giants chances of defending their title took a significant hit, but get over yourself
Kung Fu Pandamania.
by jrose643 on May 26, 2011 7:31 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
I will, as soon as
There are not full page adverts for the Buster Posey Fan Club cluttering up sbnation.com
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd be
A liar or a sanctimonious liar if I didn’t say this made me a little light on my feet. I mean yeah, the injury was pretty ghastly, but being the selfish fan I am, it combined with other things make me happier about the D’Backs. I have every confidence Posey will eventually bounce back and cause us to curse his name throughout his career.
Bad doormat! No stock options!
Tasteless post
There must be a correlation in sports culture between fans cheering for injuries and players trying to inflict them. (I’m not pointing at Scott Cousins, but maybe someone like Vicente Padilla). You notice, by the way, that Cousins, as a decent human being, has been contrite about the incident. Speaking as a Giants fan: I don’t even expect sympathy from fans of other teams—just a bit of class. But perhaps that is too much to expect of Arizona.
by Puffin on May 26, 2011 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I think this was thrown out as a what if? type of post
I for one am sinecerely sorry.
☣ "I like to keep a bottle of stimulant handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy." ☣
Pardon me Puffin...
But there are MANY of us fans w3ho do NOT wish injury or harm to any opposing player. There are classy fans everywhere you go. I DO, however, know some jerks (nobody on this board luckily) who DO get instant gratification and laugh their snarky butts off at opposing players being hurt…
Now, before you start slinging mud at anyone on here, I suggest you take a good look at the posts before yours in this thread. I don’t see ANYONE condoning injury to your team or anyone else’s!
"There are 3 types of baseball players: those who make it happen, those who watch it happen, & those who wonder what happens." -Tommy Lasorda
"When you want to win a game, you have to teach. When you lose a game, you have to learn." ~Tom Landry
by Rockkstarr12 on May 26, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for lumping the residents
Of an entire state in with the author of one post that you misread. Stay classy, troll.
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
by Dan Strittmatter on May 27, 2011 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Dislike.
I appreciate that the loss of Posey helps everyone else in the division, but I just can’t separate the ends from the means. Through absolutely no fault of his own, a young, talented, inoffensive player has lost at least 4 months of his first full season in the majors. And yes, the circumstances and the persona of the player DO matter — if it were Gary Sheffield, and he were out because of a PED suspension, that’d be one thing. But I just can’t get behind the celebration, even “Joy”, (your word) at Buster Posey breaking his leg and tearing his ligaments, which is what this is all about. This is a kid who was Rookie of the Year last year and led his team, and his city, to their first ever MLB championship since moving to San Fran, and now, for all we know, he may never play in the big leagues again.
I know you tried to parse it by mentioning that few Giants fans likely shed a tear over Brandon Webb’s injury, but that should never be an excuse to delight in the terrible misfortunes of others. I don’t recall an article at McCovey Chronicles celebrating it, either.
Get well soon, Posey.
HEY, FRENCHY! STAR TREK OR STAR WARS?
by DbacksSkins on May 26, 2011 7:55 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 7 recs
well written
i think persona of the player really really does matter a lot
and i have to admit, i probably overvalue talent a lot. i see posey as just an amazing talent, and if this had happened to a lesser player (yuniesky betancourt or something) i don’t think i’d be feeling quite as bad as i do now
by blue bulldog on May 26, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
I want the Giants to be fully healthy when we kick their offensively-challenged, one-run-win-reliant asses to the curb.
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno
If I would be calling anyone else “Offensively-Challenged” or “One-Run-Win-Reliant”……
Bad doormat! No stock options!
wRC+ of 84
And a record of 14-4 in one-run games. The Giants take it to another level entirely.
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I think our numbers were similar in '07
That’s why our pythagorean W-L% was so absurd – winning the close ones, losing the big ones.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah,
I think you could make a pretty good argument for the 2007 D-Backs being the worst team to ever win 90 games.
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Not only that
But remember they had the best record in the NL to boot.
"I don’t recall an article at McCovey Chronicles celebrating it, either."
I don’t recall all of the posts on the SB Nation sidebar being about Brandon Webb either:. Check the sidebar:
- Devastating Blow For Giants: Buster Posey Suffers Broken Leg, Torn Ligaments
- Blame MLB And Players Association For Buster Posey’s Injury
- Buster Posey’s Injury Destroys An Amazing Wednesday Of Baseball
It’s like no baseball player was ever injured before
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure
that there would have been, had Webb 1. been a member of the world champions the prior season, 2. been the reigning Rookie of the Year, and 3. had anyone known that it was anything more than “shoulder soreness”.
In retrospect, it was pretty terrible, but nobody realized it at the time. Everyone thought he’d be out for a few starts. If it’d have happened in 2007, right after winning the Cy Young, I’m sure there would have been more of an outcry, too. And, in fact, even not knowing the extent of the injury, I recall many other NL West fans expressing sympathy.
I also still don’t recall people celebrating, which was my point. That Posey’s injury is being discussed more is totally irrelevant.
HEY, FRENCHY! STAR TREK OR STAR WARS?
by DbacksSkins on May 26, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Props
For typing this all out on a phone, by the way.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on May 26, 2011 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Thx.
Using the BlackBerry makes it way easier than my old T9 keyboard.
HEY, FRENCHY! STAR TREK OR STAR WARS?
by DbacksSkins on May 27, 2011 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Gets popcorn....sits back in chair
this will get interesting.
For the record…..my first thought was how terrible for Posey and to feel sympathy for his pain and suffering and the potential impact on his long term career.
My second thought was holy crap…….could the stars be aligning just right for the D backs to make a most improbable run to the playoffs ?
No schadenfreude about how Giants fans might feel. I could care less about them. But how this affects the D Backs fortunes is of great concern to me.
I would have rather Brian Sabean had traded Posey to the Red Sox for a proven winner like Jason Varitek.
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
Yeah, same here...
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
as with both posts above
i agree with you entirely
and of course, would have been laughing my ass off if Sabean had done exactly that
by blue bulldog on May 26, 2011 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
If you want...
…I can show you the screenshot of my reaction to the Jorge De La Rosa injury. I was working via an internet chat room. A co-worker pasted the tweet that De La Rosa had torn his UCL, and I reacted with sadness because that’s not how I want to see the Giants gain an advantage.
I didn’t notice an angst-ridden piece from Brisbee when divisional rival Jorge de la Rosa was lost for the year,
Because I wasn’t asked to write one by my editor.
This is not your finest moment. But, whatever. Yuk it up.
by Grant Brisbee on May 26, 2011 8:04 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Hypocrisy, party of one,,,
“I reacted with sadness because that’s not how I want to see the Giants gain an advantage.” Not quite how you reacted in May 2009:
If a first-time visitor were to come to the site and read the quickie Manny Ramirez thread, they might think, boy, what a bunch of bitter, craven Giants fans. That’s only somewhat true. There’s a part of us that’s laughing at the misfortune of others, and it’s just a little repugnant. Just a little. I’m not too worried about it…
I still feel comfortable flipping off the finger-waggers, and I still feel mostly okay with laughing at the misfortune of others in this instanceTainted home wins record! Sanctity of the game! My son bought a Manny wig! My son! WHAT DO I TELL HIM NOW?
Dang, that feels good. It isn’t the high road, and I realize that. But the high road’s kind of a drag. The low road is filled with booze and scantily clad members of the gender that appeals to you. You know you kind of want to check it out. We’ll save a seat.
— Grant Brisbee, Manny Ramirez: Understanding the Glee
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep.
And I referenced my reaction to Manny in my original reply before I trimmed it for brevity. But if you can’t tell the difference between laughing at a person who made a bad choice and laughing at an injury, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
by Grant Brisbee on May 26, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Reading comprehension fail
I’ll put it in bold for you
My satisfaction does not stem from Posey’s broken leg. It’s the weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts to be witnessed coming from Giants’ fans.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
And if you can't see the similarities
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
But
In MCC’s defense, that was a case of a player getting punished for their own stupidity. This is an unfortunate accident.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
In both cases
Pleasure is being taken in the misfortune of others. Is it okay to laugh at the Rockies fan who fell to his death at Coors, because he was also the victim of his own stupidity?
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
i honestly don't think it's okay
to be laughing at that either…but it could just be me
i mean, at the end of the day, shit happens and some people benefit and others are worse off, that much is true. am i happy the Dbacks playoff odds have improved? yes. am i unhappy Buster Posey is injured? yes. if i were God, and could redo the situation, and be willing to sacrifice the Dbacks playoof odds so that Posey never gets injuredy? yes.
i think that’s actually what you meant in this post, but i think maybe the emphasis on smiles and joys sort of derails that message, and could have been better phrased like this.
by blue bulldog on May 26, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
i guess i could think of some examples
if bin laden had got run over by an airplane, i think i would have chuckled a little
by blue bulldog on May 26, 2011 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Osama bin Ladin
Killed hundreds of innocent Americans, Buster Posey was a baseball player on the second-most annoying team in California.
I feel like there’s a difference.
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Or the Red Sox
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
*in california
We don’t need the Red Sox TYVM. :P
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Santa Barbara.
Duh.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on May 26, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
i keep forgetting that
Boston acquired California last year…..
by blue bulldog on May 26, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Noooooooooo
I will help California secede before that happens. :P
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
For me:
1. Dodgers
2. Giants
3. Padres
4. Los Angeles Angels of Whatever
The Padres are annoying, but I can’t quite hate them like I hate the Giants or Dodgers.
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I've grown to really dislike
Anything from San Diego recently.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on May 26, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Mexican food, the beach and Seaworld?
Yeah, f**k those guys.
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Really,
It was the zoo that drew the final line.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on May 26, 2011 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
HEY!
DON’T YOU CARE ABOUT THE BABY SEALS?
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone should care about baby seals
It’s the only way to make sure the babies you’re getting are fresh.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
just trying to lighten the mood up a bit....
by blue bulldog on May 26, 2011 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I kinda figured.
Carry on. :-)
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
The argument that “it’s their own stupidity, so yuk it up” doesn’t hold water.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
That's an important distinction
You’re right, it doesn’t hold water.
"If you give a Russian schoolboy a chart of heavenly bodies, he will make corrections." Dostoevsky
by NASCARbernet on May 26, 2011 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate that I can't stop responding, but this is my final one...
Please note that the schadenfreude in my Manny post was directed towards the people who were the loudest about “STEROIDS”, not towards Dodger fans in general. Thus the repeated references towards asterisks and sanctity of the game.
But I’ve debated with you before, and you start with an opinion that you’ve formed on behalf of your arbitrary selection of a sports team, and then you find evidence after the opinion is formed. It’s fun for a while, but, yeah.
by Grant Brisbee on May 26, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
"The schadenfreude in my Manny post was directed...not towards Dodger fans in general."
The very first two comments on the piece:
It’s the Dodgers and I am ok with rejoicing in their misfortune.
Dodger misfortune > pie
Read the rest of them for lots more of the same. Either everyone wildly misinterpreted your high-minded intentions,. or you were completely out of touch with Giants fandom
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, this is really,really, really the last response. Clooooosing the tab now.
Either everyone wildly misinterpreted your high-minded intentions,. or you were completely out of touch with Giants fandom
You went from “you did it too!” to “selected readers didn’t understand your point!” in a few minutes. You are not an honest debater. You’re a passionate sports fan. Just as long as you, and everyone here, understands that this is a place for emotion first and logic second, you’ll keep doing what you do best.
by Grant Brisbee on May 26, 2011 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have absolutely no way of determining your motives when writing the piece
You claim it was not intended against the Dodgers. However, it certainly does not read that way, and the reaction from other Giants’ fans, also suggest this is post-facto revisionism.
Regardless of your justification, the bottom line is, those who are, to quote you, “okay with laughing at the misfortune of others,” pretty much lose the moral high ground when it comes to their own misfortunes and other’s reactions.
But again, I need to stress: any pleasure I feel is derived not from the injury per se, but its resultant effects on a) the NL West race and b) Giants fans.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Grant
If anyone manages to get past the outrageous headline to this post and actually read what Jim wrote…….he is calling out hypocrisy. While many are horrified at the very concept of Schadenfreude in the first place, it’s a fact that it’s a human emotion that very few if any humans are completely immune from.
I know EXACTLY what Jim was trying to do here. He knew the headline would be controversial. He knew that he would be blasted for what he wrote in the article. But he also knew that every single person who read this would have to examine their own soul and face the fact that human envy and the occasional satisfaction at the misfortune of a rival is a natural reaction.
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
by shoewizard on May 26, 2011 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
Rec’d
You're not a 49er unless you got a gold star from Trent Baalke. Only "high character" guys get to play for the 49ers. The team is built in the locker room, as we all know.
by BustaTheRippa on May 26, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
How you can tell someone is a High maintenance blogger
Repeatedly says “I’m leaving!” and only does so after the 4th time he has said it
You're not a 49er unless you got a gold star from Trent Baalke. Only "high character" guys get to play for the 49ers. The team is built in the locker room, as we all know.
by BustaTheRippa on May 26, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I get that sports is about competition
And I really don’t think it’s wrong to say DBacks fans are feeling a little more optimistic about the postseason given the nature of things, but I’m really not sure this post was needed. The Tulo comparison doesn’t really make much sense because, you know, he’s still playing baseball. He’s getting the opportunity to help his team, but by his own doing isn’t getting the job done. If Tulo got hit by a bus tomorrow and was lost for the season I’m not gonna be happy that the Rockies would be worse off.
It really doesn’t help that it’s Posey, either, who seems like one of the most likeable players in baseball.
I don't know
There’s the side of me that winces every time I see that play- ‘cause oh crap ow. And there’s the side of me that wonders what this means for the Diamondbacks playoff chances, i.e., if we have any.
But I can’t say that I ever felt much joy over how Giants fans might feel on this. Maybe under other circumstances, like seeing Pablo “Stupidest Freaking Nickname In The History Of Baseball*” Sandoval flail at the plate, or Cody Ross and getting beady, beady pinkeye or something, I might laugh. But I’d rather see my team succeed because they beat the other team because they’re playing better. Not because someone got hurt.
*And I say that as the guy who came up with Abrananaham.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
But Abrananaham
didn’t stick. Thank goodness. :P
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey
It was retracted.
We’ll stick with The Colonel.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
But
Wouldn’t beady, beady pinkeye ALSO be an unfortunate injury-type situation that you would be flogged in a public forum for?
Bad doormat! No stock options!
Too late, I think ;)
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
For those that didn't understand Jim's post
My satisfaction does not stem from Posey’s broken leg.
That’s the same thing I felt when got the news. Of course I would better like to see Posey hit .198 for the season than watching him almost lose his leg, but com’on, I can’t think of any Giants fan feeling “sad” about Webb’s and De La Rosa’s shoulder problems…
Let’s hope the boy gets back healthy soon, but let’s not forget that it somehow brings more competition for the NL West.
Eu era feio. Agora eu tenho um carro.
And he's made that perfectly clear now
I’m still having a hard time disconnecting the two. Maybe because it’s so soon after, maybe because it’s the freak/unnecessary nature of it. It doesn’t mean a post needed to be made about how good it could be for us.
I think part of it is in the framing
Right now, it’s about the injury. If, in a week or two, Jim had made a post about the Giants hitting a skid? That would read differently.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
Or
Something along the lines of “What Buster Posey’s injury might mean for Diamdondback playoff chances” that was stated neutrally and stuck to cold hard stats probably would have been received a little better.
Bad doormat! No stock options!
I was thinking the exact same thing
Of COURSE the injury improves our chances. THAT’s what we should be talking about.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
This
If it were a post referencing a San Franciscan fall from first to third and mentioned that losing Posey was a big blow, sure, it’d be okay to be happy about our team moving ahead of theirs. But I’m not in love with the idea of making a post specifically celebrating the results of Buster Posey breaking his leg, especially less than 24 hours from when it actually happened. That’s all.
My value over a replacement poster is approximately 10.5 runs.
I wouldn't go as far as this post.
Buster Posey’s injury was a horrible thing. There is a fairly narrow range of movement that the human leg is capable of making, and Posey’s leg made a motion that fell well outside of that range. It was a legal play (though I think they should revisit the rules on catchers blocking the plate), but it was avoidable, and avoidable injuries are always the saddest. I’m not happy as a baseball fan or as a fan of the Diamondbacks.
I’m really not trying to get all sanctimoneous here, because that’s really not my style, but I’ve been a sports fan for a while, and I’ve seen plenty of injuries derail the hopes and aspirations of my teams, and I honestly wouldn’t wish that on anyone (except maybe Yankee fans).
As Grant mentioned in his Baseball Nation post, the Giants are probably about three games worse with a replacement-level catcher over the course of the season. In a couple days, I’ll be happy about the analytical side, but I don’t think I am yet.
Condolences to Buster Posey and his friends and family. Also, condolences to Scott Cousins, I’m sure he feels terrible about the whole thing.
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 8:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I feel no pleasure in this man's injury
his career is in the balance, we forget that catastrophic injuries are life-altering. He may recover (and I pray that he does), or he never play as well again.
To those who comment “Well it’s to the Diamondback’s advantage,” I say to you that’s very unsporting. Victory is sweeter when one defeats one’s opponent at their best game.
Don’t forget, people, baseball players are entertainers, period. Take pleasure in their skills, and qualities, but don’t scoff at their real pain.
"If you give a Russian schoolboy a chart of heavenly bodies, he will make corrections." Dostoevsky
by NASCARbernet on May 26, 2011 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I'm more cut and dry about this whole debacle.
Plain and simple, as has been stated repeatedly, I take no joy in the seriousness of Posey’s injury and I would never wish ill upon another good person to that extent. However, I can’t hold back my thoughts that the D-backs will most likely benefit from the situation, ergo I have to be pleased with the overall result.
A strange analogy would be to have something valuable (or something that you coveted) given to you as part of someone’s will. Something good came out of something unfortunate.
Wear your own fur.
sure
but i think substantively there’s a difference between “i got -10 utility from someone dying, but there was a +5 utility recovery from the fact that i was given something valuable” vs. “good thing that this dude died because even though i feel a -5 utility from his death, i gain a +10 utility from getting something valuable”
i hope most people view Posey’s injury as the former
by blue bulldog on May 26, 2011 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Tulo
Is 1 for 30 against us this year.
THIS IS AN APPROPRIATE PLACE FOR SCHADENFREUDE, IF YOU SAY IT ISN’T THEN I WILL RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE, BUT PROBABLY CALL YOU SOMETHING BAD TO MYSELF WHILE I’M SITTING HERE AT MY COMPUTER EATING LEFTOVER PIZZA…SO HA HA TULO YOU ARE BAD AND I HATE YOU
Bad doormat! No stock options!
LOL
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree
In this difficult hour, where the Snakepit is divided over whether to embrace Posey’s injury or not, this is something we can all rally around: hating Troy Tulowitzki.
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
True.
But you just opened up another can of worms by referring to their city as “Frisco.”
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, yes you did
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
That was intentional
I can’t TOTALLY change who I am for the sake of decorum
Bad doormat! No stock options!
But [as I also posted over in the GDT]
What if his suckiness is due to valley fever? Would you be all, “Bloo-hoo, I’m sorry, Tulo?”
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably not.
But I also probably wouldn’t be like, “HAHA! SUCK IT TULO! YOU HAVE AN UNFORTUNATE ILLNESS!”
I think there’s room for compromise in the middle.
(And no, I’m not claiming that’s what this post entailed)
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 26, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Mixed feelings.
Sucks to be him, absolutely, but it helps the team I support, which is good.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It might me just me,
but I don’t think I could ever feel bad for Tulo.
It might make me a bad person, but meh, whatever…
Yep, you're a horrible person. :P
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Buster Posey=the next Bonds
Sans the ’roids
"There are 3 types of baseball players: those who make it happen, those who watch it happen, & those who wonder what happens." -Tommy Lasorda
"When you want to win a game, you have to teach. When you lose a game, you have to learn." ~Tom Landry
wow
Carter Jurica!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on May 26, 2011 10:10 PM EDT reply actions
Let me clarify this
Posey is being talked about constantly, just as Bonds always was…NOTHING to do with ‘roids, just that their names are constantly in conversation (well, Posey’s name lately)…
"There are 3 types of baseball players: those who make it happen, those who watch it happen, & those who wonder what happens." -Tommy Lasorda
"When you want to win a game, you have to teach. When you lose a game, you have to learn." ~Tom Landry
by Rockkstarr12 on May 27, 2011 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
One of the best young players in the game just sustained a possible season ending injury that could have a large effect on his career. I don’t think it is ridiculous that the baseball world focuses on him for one day. It’s been one day. That’s all.
Carter Jurica!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on May 27, 2011 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I became a member of this blog...
Just to tell you how much I agree with this, and how glad I am to see you had the courage to honestly state how you (and others) may be feeling without being faux horror at the thought that ANYONE could ever take joy in the misfortune of others if it benefits oneself.
Sure, I don’t like seeing people get hurt. No desire to see something that again. Far better to lose Posey because he decided to go into the seminary, or take up football instead, or something else that doesn’t involve a horrific injury.
But yeah…first thought: oh boy, poor kid.
Second thought: a weaker Giants team can only help my team!
Just glad you had the courage to write a potentiall controversial piece that IMHO you treated very well.
That's the consensus feeling I think.
Initially, it’s: “Crap, that’s really awful.”
Then we wake up the next day and it’s: “Well, time to win the division”
Also, welcome to the ’Pit!
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on May 26, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
I think if you really want to stir up controversey, an opinion piece speculating if this would have been such a big deal if it happened to Humberto Quintero or Rod Barajas would be interesting.
Eh, yeah, but, it's fairly obvious
that it’s most definitely would not be such a big deal if it were them. They aren’t reigning rookies of the year, #4 power hitters in a reigning World Series winner. It’s a much bigger loss for San Francisco.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep,
for example, I don’t recall anyone around baseball giving a shat when Koyie Hill broke his ankle in a collision. And why would they? He’s no Posey. If someone wrote that they felt schadenfreude about him having his season ended everyone would be like “LOLwat” (lthough, an injury like that hurt Koyie Hill more than Buster Posey’s injury hurt him, considering that he’s a fringe MLB player and Posey will still probably make multiple All Star appearances, but that’s another point…) because Hill didn’t really make our team good, while Posey is the biggest offensive threat they have.
And that's part of the double-standard
Where were all those demanding rules changes when the Minnesota Twins lost second baseman Tsuyoshi Nishioka in a collision at that bag?
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally agree with you there
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 26, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Right,
nobody cares about the little guy who gets hurt, when it’s most likely the last chance they’ll get to be in the majors (luckily for Hill, he revived his career… and Nishioka will probably do the same). The only injuries that matter are the ones to superstars.
Freakin’ media.
As a Giants fan
I applaud you for exposing Brisbee’s hypocrisy as he repeatedly shows time and time again because he is a sniveling little weasel.
Myself, I am obviously upset about Posey’s injury, and it makes us a worse team, but it truly sickened me how much Brisbee went with the “poor posey” ongoing whiny douche-baggery.
I made a post on the Baseball nation post that got deleted(as grant is a fraud).
Had Eli Whiteside been the one who received this injury, would there be as much hand-wringing from Brisbee? No. Because Posey is a better baseball player than Whiteside. The horrific-ness of the injury would be the same, but because Whitey is a much worse player, Brisbee wouldn’t have cried like a little girl. And this shows why Brisbee is MORE upset at the fact the GIANTS lost their best hitter, not the horrifcness of the injury.
Keep it coming, Mclennan. Even as a D Back fansite writer, you have made me a fan. Brisbee is whiny little fraud.
You're not a 49er unless you got a gold star from Trent Baalke. Only "high character" guys get to play for the 49ers. The team is built in the locker room, as we all know.
Eh.
I think we could all do without some of the namecalling.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on May 26, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
If there's one man who deserves it
It’s the hypocrite Brisbee. His actions get more laughable by the day.
You're not a 49er unless you got a gold star from Trent Baalke. Only "high character" guys get to play for the 49ers. The team is built in the locker room, as we all know.
by BustaTheRippa on May 26, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
While I appreciate the support
I really do not want to make this any kind of Grant-bashing thread, as that certainly wasn’t my main point – I’ve enjoyed many of his pieces. Just not that one. :-)
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 26, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
After the shocking title
I have no problem with the post. Jim notes very clearly that his delight has nothing to do with Posey’s pain. It’s the very real objective fact that the Giants are an inferior team without the very talented Posey (for whatever reason they’d be without him).
Some people will take longer than others to separate the video of Posey writhing on the ground in pain from the competitive advantage gained, but I think it’s safe to say that most people commenting here will at some point. Even if they don’t know it. It could he as simple as a “woo-hoo, Arizona is in first place!” chant if that day arrives. You may not be thinking of Posey at all, but that’s exactly the point. You’ll have separated the incident from the consequences. And you’ll like the consequences because you’re a D-backs fan.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
by Dan Strittmatter on May 26, 2011 10:58 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Every day
I wake up and thank the lord I’m not the kind of person who would write a headline like that. Wow. Even if it wasn’t your intention, it reflects poorly on you and this community.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, WORLD CHAMPION SAN FRANCISCO GIANT
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
11/1/10
So...
Did you read any of the article?
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on May 26, 2011 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet your the kind of guy
Who thinks Mein Kampf is a tale of a young man’s struggle to overcome his poor upbringing and bring peace and joy to the world.
Hyperbole, but that’s what happens when you choose to remain ignorant of the content of a publication. Get over yourself, please.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
by Dan Strittmatter on May 27, 2011 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Given your choice of username
I find this carefully cultivated moral outrage… ironic, shall we say.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I feel bad
That I was a little happy when I heard the news. But I wasn’t happy that he was in pain. It was more that our chances had increased. But now, after reading the posts here, I’m feeling incredibly guilty.
I would hate if we lost a player, like, I don’t know, J.J. Putz, or Gerrado Parra, so I can’t imagine what the Giants fans are going through. Again, I wasn’t jumping up and down that a Human being had gone through pain. Heck, I didn’t even jump up and down. It was more of a “Yes, our chances have increased” because, let’s face it, Buster Posey is a great player, and I have no doubt he’ll rebound from this injury.
But Jim's whole post
is, NOT to feel guilty! It’s okay to separate the player from the injury. Some people can do it, some can’t…
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on May 27, 2011 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Ah, I see what you're saying
Honestly, I don’t know how anyone could wish pain on a player. There’s no point. But, I see where you’re getting at.
Well,
I must say that I’m not going to root for Daniel Hudson to blow out his elbow, just so that you’ll be miserable, Jim.
Mark DeRosa, still existing.
by oldjacket on May 27, 2011 2:04 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Way to miss the point of the post.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
by Dan Strittmatter on May 27, 2011 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions
On the contrary
“I’m not happy that the player got hurt, I’m happy that you’re so unhappy about it. "
Mark DeRosa, still existing.
But you went straight back to making the injury the focus.
Jim’s point is that it has nothing to do with the injury. If you’d said, “I must say that I’m not going to root for Daniel Hudson testing positive for steroids and being suspended 50 games, just so that you’ll be miserable, Jim” you’d have had a reasonable comeback.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
by Dan Strittmatter on May 27, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a nasty, awful post.
You never celebrate injuries, in any way. Ever.
Number one fan of Justin Bieber being the number one fan of the Dodgers, and not the [2010 World Series Champion] Giants.
I take that back. I would gladly celebrate an injury to your keyboard.
Number one fan of Justin Bieber being the number one fan of the Dodgers, and not the [2010 World Series Champion] Giants.
by Spazzy Mcgee on May 27, 2011 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
BETTER LATHER UP
CAUSE THIS AIN’T NO CARPET BURN
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on May 27, 2011 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Another reading comprehension fail
I’m beginning to wonder if it’s required to be a Giants fan…
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
ARRRRRRRGH
I don’t want everyone who reads this to keep thinking this is a hateful post, because I don’t want people to think the ‘Pit is a loathsome place like it’s being misinterpreted as being.
My satisfaction does not stem from Posey’s broken leg. It’s the weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts to be witnessed coming from Giants’ fans. Their agony is my ecstacy, and I don’t feel very guilty about wallowing in that at all.
Understand the post. He isn’t celebrating the injury.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
by Dan Strittmatter on May 27, 2011 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Jim's a smart guy
And I’m pretty sure he knew that titling a post “Buster Posey and the Joy of Schadenfreude” a day after one of the more popular young players in baseball had his leg snapped in half would be troll-baiting of the highest order.
They aren’t reacting to the content of the article, but rather the title and overall tone of the post. Which is a shame, because the larger point, which seems to be that on some level it’s human nature to celebrate things that help the team you root for, even if the injury itself is terrible, is a valid and insightful one. But calling for Giant fans to “suck it and suck it hard” is just asking for a rebuttal.
I’m not saying the response is logical, but I can understand it, from the perspective of Giant fans. To be honest, if Justin Upton suffered a season-ending injury, I’d probably be angry and hyper-sensitive to posts like this as well.
Rest In Peace: Me (2008-2010)
Good luck keeping your upper lip warm without MY help, Mr. Zavada.
by Zavada's Moustache on May 27, 2011 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
exactly….couldn’t have said it better myself
by blue bulldog on May 27, 2011 4:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I completely agree
If this is “Giants Fans and Schadenfreude,” then none of this controversy happens. I truly think that should be the case.
I just don’t think it’s a nasty post, and I don’t see how it should reflect poorly on Arizona or its fans.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
by Dan Strittmatter on May 27, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
My satisfaction does not stem from Posey’s broken leg. It’s the weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts to be witnessed coming from Giants’ fans. Their agony is my ecstacy, and I don’t feel very guilty about wallowing in that at all.
that’s basically the second derivative of being happy about the injury.
Mark DeRosa, still existing.
I personally
went for more of a Derrida-esque deconstruction.
It isn't Hell if everyone knows my name.
A lot of fully literate people have read this piece and found it obnoxious. Maybe the denizens of this blog should dismount from their high horses and acknowledge that the piece contains a sentiment that is odious.
Mark DeRosa, still existing.
A lot of fully literate people – including some Giants fans – have read this piece and don’t have your problem with its sentiments.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Or
Others could get off their respective high horses and realize that while the piece may not have been the best phrased or the best idea, it’s nothing to lose sleep over, seriously people.
Others have expressed misgivings and doubts without going into pseudo-pretentious psychoanalysis about it OR insulting a whole community of people
Bad doormat! No stock options!
insulting a whole community of people
Fair enough. I certainly did not mean to imply that every member of this community held the same views.
I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about as far as psychoanalysis, though. I apologize for using a meth metaphor.
Mark DeRosa, still existing.
The entirety of this discussion thread
Has been split between a) damning and defending a group of people or an individual person for the writing of this post, and b) the debate on whether or not we are able to separate the pain of watching a young man get injured in a horrific manner with the consequences it has on the season.
Part b is what’s important. You may not be able to separate them yet, but to crucify those who can is silly.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
by Dan Strittmatter on May 27, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
From a neutral Angel fans point of view...
This post really doesn’t make Arizona fans look good at all. I get what you’re saying, I breathed a sigh of relief when Josh Hamilton broke his shoulder but I didn’t compare it to Schadenfreude. In fact, I was actually kind of bummed out for Texas and especially Josh Hamilton, a good guy who made bad choices and then turned his life around. You don’t like watching good guys lose when they’re just trying to do their job. I want Josh out of Texas’ line up but not like that. I want him out of the lineup because he’s slumping or because he needs a day off or because our pitchers dominate him (they don’t), not because he was doing his job and broke his shoulder.
I get your point but this makes you (and I know from reading this thread that it doesn’t reflect all Arizona fans) look kind of like a dick. Rather than say “After watching him break his ankle a thousand times I’m sorry it happened but at the same time I’m glad” and therefore cause a firestorm of controversy, I would have liked to have seen “I am glad his bat is out of the lineup but I hate to see it happen like this.” I’m not trying to tell you how to think, I’m just saying that to a fan who doesn’t have too much emotional stock invested into either team, this makes you look like a real fool.
Oh, and sorry we didn’t all gnash our teeth when we heard Webb was out with “shoulder soreness”. I hope you can understand that diagnosis comes across a little less severe than a catcher breaking and damaging several parts of his leg. And no, no one in Frisco wept for De La Rosa but they sure as hell didn’t tell anyone in Colorado to “suck it and suck it hard.” Maybe these fans are incredibly sad to see a young stud writhe in agony and possibly never be the same young stud again (Ray Fosse, anyone?). God knows I was sorry to see that.
Hell, I work with Dodger fans who showed more compassion.
Tim Salmon: The once and future Kingfish.
by Teixeira Who? on May 27, 2011 3:12 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
One thing I kind of don't get...
This post really doesn’t make Arizona fans look good at all.
All Arizona fans? I by no means mean to pick a fight, but it’s just worth noting that that’s a bit of a sweeping judgment.
to a fan who doesn’t have too much emotional stock invested into either team
This is just it. Sports are all about wanton, insane, seemingly-unnecessary emotional investment in a team that just so happens to play where you live. That’s what being a fan is all about. When something that’s beneficial to the team you follow happens, that benefit is welcomed with open arms because the success of the team has emotional meaning to a fan. You may cringe and loathe how that benefit came to be, as everyone here undoubtedly does, but, when positive, the ends are almost always viewed separately from the means.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
by Dan Strittmatter on May 27, 2011 3:32 AM EDT up reply actions
He does say later
I get your point but this makes you (and I know from reading this thread that it doesn’t reflect all Arizona fans)
As for you
You may cringe and loathe how that benefit came to be, as everyone here undoubtedly does
While Jim and many others may feel this way, they seem to have done a very poor job expressing this if this is true.
It’s the weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts to be witnessed coming from Giants’ fans. Their agony is my ecstacy, and I don’t feel very guilty about wallowing in that at all.
It’s really this, along with the title, that agitate me a little bit. He’s not happy that Posey broke his leg, but at the same time he is happy that it happened because it means that Giants fans are miserable. There is just no reason for that.
Also
and that’s what makes the future lack of Posey heartwarming
Out of respect to Grant I am going to stop posting here now, but that is just bad.
Carter Jurica!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on May 27, 2011 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s really this, along with the title, that agitate me a little bit. He’s not happy that Posey broke his leg, but at the same time he is happy that it happened because it means that Giants fans are miserable. There is just no reason for that.
As noted below, in hindsight I would agree with you on the title, and probably remove the word “joy”. Bit late now. :-)
Overall, it’s a question of separation. Yes, I am pleased Giants fans are miserable, as I was when they flamed out in the 2002 World Series. In sports, most people have teams they root against as well as for: the Yankees, for example. The specific reason for that misery is less important. Again, this is all about separation of event and consequence. That’s probably something I should have expressed more clearly too.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 3:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Ah, to heck with it. Guess it's never too late
“Joy” removed.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions
First line of the second paragraph...
(and I know from reading this thread that it doesn’t reflect all Arizona fans)
Oh and trust me, you don’t need to explain to me about undying emotional love for a team. I live and die with every pitch, every out and every win or loss that the Angels are apart of. I don’t have much stock invested in San Francisco or Arizona because I was born and raised in Los Angeles. I live for this sport and specifically my team. (Hell, I even follow a bunch of Arizona games on Gameday whenever Saunders is pitching). There has to be a line though and that line is when a beneficial gain to your team isn’t just a great acquisition, a rival missing out on a valuable free agent or a player getting suspended for doing something stupid (ahem, Manny…) but when a young kids life is affected. Maybe I’m being too sensitive because I do remember one poster on Lookout Landing finding some sort of Schadenfreude in the absence of Nick Adenhart.
Nick being out of the rotation left a gaping hole (and weakness) which was a direct benefit to every AL West rival. Still, there has to be a line that says “although this helps my team, I really would have rather it didn’t happen.” A kids life shouldn’t have to be potentially ruined for you to feel good about your team.
Tim Salmon: The once and future Kingfish.
by Teixeira Who? on May 27, 2011 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I certainly couldn't go there with Nick Adenhart
But that, to me, is several order of magnitudes beyond this.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 3:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Can't you separate an incident from its repercussions, though?
If Player X breaks his ankle, that’s in the past. It wasn’t my fault, and there’s absolutely nothing I can do about it.
Hand-wringing and outrage will not make his ankle heal itself.
So, if I wasn’t at fault for the incident, and there’s absolutely no way for me to correct it, why not be happy for the positive advantage to me?
There’s a big difference between being happy something bad happened, and being happy about the results of something bad happening (something you had absolutely nothing to do with, and cannot fix.)
The funny thing
is he did basically say that:
My satisfaction does not stem from Posey’s broken leg.
It isn't Hell if everyone knows my name.
Appreciate the thoughtful comments
There are two completely separate things here: the injury and the consequences of it. I can’t see how I could made it any clearer that the injury was, and I quote myself, “a terrible thing.” But judging by their tenor, most of the negative comments missed that entirely, preferring to fabricate some bizarre scenario where I watch Posey’s injury repeatedly in slo-mo, cackling maniacally. Not quite the case.
But the consequence of the injury is that every other team now has a better chance of winning the World Series, which (from their fans’ point of view) can legitimately be considered a good thing. It is entirely possible to be saddened by the injury, yet not by the consequences of it.
I was also particularly irritated or even borderline offended by what I’d certainly call over-reactions from some quarter to Posey’s injury – which is to what the “suck it” statement was responding. That’s expecially so when contrasted to the equally gruesome leg injury suffered by the Twins second basemen earlier this season – without one-tenth of the resulting noise. Was Tsuyoshi Nishioka not as worthy of sympathy and concern, because he’s not as good a baseball player? Were were all those, now calling for a rules change, after that incident?
Certainly, I do admit I could have expressed myself better in some way – the headline, in particular, was needlessly incendiary. But if you read the whole thing and think it makes me “look kind of a dick,” then I really don’t think you did get the point of the piece. Because looking like a dick certainly wasn’t it. :-)
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 3:41 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I think there are fundamentally two issues at work here
that make the message in this piece appear much worse than I think you meant it to be:
1) I mentioned this briefly above, but I think one really simple framework to think about the incident is this: If you were some omnipotent force and could go back in time and choose whether Buster Posey gets injured or not, what do you choose? I would like to believe that most of us here would choose Posey not be injured. However, my impression of Schadenfreude isn’t exactly like that. In some ways, Schadenfreude shades a little closer to actually preferring the bad event to happen (for instance, one lyric in Avenue Q is about not holding the elevator door when someone is asking for you to). I think that’s why even if there’s a disclaimer about how the injury was so horrific and you don’t take delight in Posey’s injury in and of itself, the tone is already set to describe the opposite. Which means that in order to make the first point clear (assuming you do believe that you would choose Posey to not be injured) then you have to do so much more explicitly.
2) The second issue stems from lines in reference to Giants fans such as “their agony is my ecstacy.” I think a significant portion of society just feels (justified or unjustified) that beating up on someone when they are down is just not acceptable. One of my best friend’s girlfriend was a Pittsburgh Steeler fan, and she never gloated once about them beating the Cardinals in the Super Bowl to me. And I can’t imagine gloating about the Giants losing Posey to another of my best friends, who’s a SF Giants diehard fan. Obviously this ties closely to empathy, and I can understand if some people here have no empathy for the Giants. Empathy is extremely relative, and depends of course a lot on your emotional ties to certain things and people, and your emotional aptitude for certain situations. For instance, I feel a ton of empathy for when fans’ sports teams basically tank because of injury. I just have to think back on Brandon Webb, Amar’e Stoudemire, and Joe Johnson and recall how unhappy I felt at the time. On the other hand, I have to admit I don’t feel any empathy for people who invest a ton of their money and are now bankrupt because they made bad investment decisions. The level of empathy an individual feels for any given situation will assuredly be different based on the individual. But I think it should be entirely understandable if, when you make statements like the ones that were made, and it draws the ire of SF Giants fans.
One other thought that I think is getting a little underplayed here is your position. Again, justified or unjustified, people simply have greater expectations for leaders, and you are undoubtedly the leader of this blog site. It’s one thing for a random writer on the blog (like me) to put up a controversial post like this. It’s an entirely different beast for the head of the blog, and is going to come under a lot more scrutiny and attack. That’s just the way society works.
by blue bulldog on May 27, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
With regard to the schadenfreude, I’m extremely clear that it is not in regard to the injury: “That’s a very important distinction. My satisfaction does not stem from Posey’s broken leg. It’s the weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts to be witnessed coming from Giants’ fans.” Again, complete separation of cause and effect.
I think a significant portion of society just feels (justified or unjustified) that beating up on someone when they are down is just not acceptable.
In general terms, you’re right, but this is the sporting arena, where this morality doesn’t apply – doing exactly that is more than acceptable, it’s required. Right now, we eagerly anticipate the Diamondbacks marching into Houston and beating up on the very down Astros. Indeed, concern has often been expressed the year because the team has failed to beat up on the down teams. It’s 100% adversarial in nature: your defeat is the core of what gives us pleasure, and you can’t have a winner without losers. Part of the joy of 2001 was putting one over on the Yankees and their fans.
Certainly, I knew this was likely to provoke strong reactions, especially from Giants fans; the politic thing would probably have been to say nothing. What surprises me is how much criticism wildly misrepresents what I wrote, e.g. the suggestion on Purple Row I “honestly believe that every non-Giant fan was doing fist-pumps in some deranged part of their mind as they watched the gruesome sight of Posey’s ankle snap under the pressure of his own body.” Quite how you get there from here confounds me.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I sort of think though
that you are deluding yourself somewhat by saying it surprises you how much criticism wildly misrepresents what you wrote.
I agree that you made a disclaimer, and in an ideal world where everyone remembers every single statement in an article, while not cherry-picking the statements that stand out the most in their mind, it would be enough. But the problem is even if you make a statement saying your satisfaction does not stem from Posey’s broken leg, it’s entirely possible (and very likely) the tone of your post conveys an entirely opposite feeling. And the biggest problem with tone, is that the author’s opinion of the tone has inherent limitations because definitionally speaking, tone is what the general audience perceives when reading the writing.
Maybe working at a law firm has somewhat skewed my perspective (we recently spent two hours in a meeting with a client on how to word the opening sentence of their IPO prospectus), but I truly believe that words are a finesse tool that has tremendous manipulative ability. Especially when writing a post that is likely to provoke strong reactions, each word each statement can have a purpose and profound effect on the reader.
by blue bulldog on May 27, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
To which I reply, succinctly: “Suck it, Giants fans. Suck it long. And suck it hard.”
You have to admit, Jim, no matter what else you wrote in the article, it’s hard to put that in your conclusion and not come out looking like a dick.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
by kishi on May 27, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Two things
a) If you take that totally seriously, you need to watch more SNL Celebrity Jeopardy. Maybe I should have said, “Shuck it” instead…
b) Note what it was in specific reply to. Not the injury. Not even the consequences. But an overblown paean to Posey, which feels like something off a Justin Bieber fan board [albeit with better spelling]. “There will never be a perfect storm like this again”? Lock ‘n’ load.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Reading some of these comments
I had no idea they made Horses that high.
Bad doormat! No stock options!
They crossbreed them with giraffes
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
great post
It’s a situation of separating the person from the player. Yes, I feel bad for Posey and for MLB in general because he’s a true superstar in the making. It’s wonderful to have catchers that are interesting to watch. That said, the Giants are coming to Milwaukee this weekend and I am damn glad he will not be playing.
I imagine a lot of the teeth gnashing over this post is from Giants fans who I am willing to bet had no problem rooting for Barry Bonds. They were able to separate the person from the player (and his impact) on the field. They could love his contributions while (hopefully) despising everything he represents. I feel the same way about injuries. I really hate to see anyone get hurt (except Gary Sheffield, I’d love to see him drawn and quartered on the field) but I love the resulting production drop if it’s an opponent.
I think if we are honest with ourselves, and have a rooting interest, we all feel the same way.
I have seen the coming of the Lord. Savior, thy name is Gallardo.
that monster Barry Bonds who was really really good at baseball and who is paying for Bryan Stow's children's education?
Yeah, I cheered for that guy
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Your mom's a girl
If you have cheered for a sports team
you have cheered for drug users. Oh, and wife beaters, drunk drivers, etc etc ad infinitum.
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Your mom's a girl
Yeah, it's cool that he's paying for their College education
But it’s easy to separate the good from the bad.
But don't get me wrong
It’s amazing nice that he’s doing that for Bryan Stow’s children, and never even attempted to let the media know about it.
Does that make us bad people? Yes and no. (fixed)
The only redeeming feature of this Steigerwald-ian post is that you admit that envy is at the root of your misguided, barbaric ramblings.
"We just have to go back and watch the film and look at the things that we need to do and correct and go forward." -- Mike Singletary
by Bay Area Sports Guy on May 27, 2011 2:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Says the man who never once cheered
At the fact that the Giants making the playoffs, because it may or may not have been the product of Brandon Webb not pitching two more games against them than he may have pitched against the Padres had he not been hurt.
Right?
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
by Dan Strittmatter on May 27, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course not
Everyone outside of Arizona goes by Victorian rules of etiquette when it comes to watching sports, though it doesn’t preclude overblown damnation of writers of things they probably didn’t read, and not-accurate comparisons (cause someone being brutally assaulted by two douchebags is totally the same as a guy suffering a bad sports injury through mostly bad luck)
Bad doormat! No stock options!
Not comparing Posey’s injury to Stow, just the inflammatory writing styles of Steigerwald and McLennan (who like many non-DBacks fans I’ve never read until today, so I guess this post was a success for him in many respects).
"We just have to go back and watch the film and look at the things that we need to do and correct and go forward." -- Mike Singletary
by Bay Area Sports Guy on May 27, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Major difference: I never once pumped my fist because Brandon Webb got injured. Who does that? When the team I root for succeeds, I cheer. If an opposing player gets injured, I make the necessary adjustments on my fantasy teams. I don’t gleefully prattle on about how awesome it is that a talented player won’t play for months, regardless of the team they play for.
And if the D-Backs do win the West this year, I’m not going to say they won because Posey got injured. Everyone plays the hand their dealt. But if you get a bad hand, I don’t think it’s cool to have someone behind you, laughing at the crappy cards you’re holding.
"We just have to go back and watch the film and look at the things that we need to do and correct and go forward." -- Mike Singletary
by Bay Area Sports Guy on May 27, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
So, you didn't cheer when Manny Ramirez got suspended?
You must be unique among Giants fans.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
But he didn’t get injured!
"We just have to go back and watch the film and look at the things that we need to do and correct and go forward." -- Mike Singletary
by Bay Area Sports Guy on May 27, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t gleefully prattle on about how awesome it is that a talented player won’t play for months, regardless of the team they play for…
Seems like Ramirez is a pretty clear example of that.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, play for months DUE TO INJURY. 50-game PED suspensions are rare and not worthy of sympathy.
"We just have to go back and watch the film and look at the things that we need to do and correct and go forward." -- Mike Singletary
by Bay Area Sports Guy on May 27, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
if you really can't tell the difference
wow
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Your mom's a girl
[For thje N Millionth + 1th time]
Separate event (different, obviously) from consequences (the same).
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you seriously comparing a PED suspension to someone’s ankle getting crushed? Your post was bad enough, but that assertion takes the cake.
"We just have to go back and watch the film and look at the things that we need to do and correct and go forward." -- Mike Singletary
by Bay Area Sports Guy on May 27, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Separate event from consequences
[For the N millionth time]. The event, obviously, is different. The consequences were exactly the same – though Giants fans were far more delighted at the consequences.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Just because you say I have to separate the two doesn’t mean it makes sense to do so. By your logic, missing a game because you contracted the flu is the same thing as missing a game because you got wasted the night before and you’re too hungover to play.
"We just have to go back and watch the film and look at the things that we need to do and correct and go forward." -- Mike Singletary
by Bay Area Sports Guy on May 27, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
From the point of view of an opposing fan
Are you concerned by the “why” in that case? Sure, you may find one more amusing than the other, but what matters for your team is that the player is out of the opponent’s line-up.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
by Jim McLennan on May 27, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
the event is key
it’s the key to the whole thing.
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Your mom's a girl
Okay we get it
Jim is a bad person who doesn’t deserve pie, NOW CAN YOU JUST LEAVE US ALONE?
Bad doormat! No stock options!
I think the productive part of this discussion has come to its natural end
200+ comments, both sides of the argument have been fully expressed, and there’s not much more being added at this point beyond snark. Unless someone comes up with something startlingly new in the next couple of hours, I’m going to close this to further comments.
"I'm confused."
"Yeah, well. It's a big club. We should get t-shirts."
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