Where's His Head At? Examining Baseball's Proposed Postseason Expansion
You can take it to your bail bondsman right now: The next "modernization" step will be two wild-card teams and another round of playoffs, then more wild cards until the Indians, Mariners, Marlins and Rockies will be the only teams sitting at home.
--Dave Van Dyck, Baseball Digest, June 1993
Major League Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig has been threatening to expand the post-season for several years now. Apparently, it's long been on his to-do list. He oversaw the expansion in 1993 and the move to three regional divisions in 1994, a move which, as you can see above, was not popular to begin with. This past week, Selig said he expects the playoffs to expand from 8 to 10 teams beginning in 2012. The plan still has to be approved by the players' union collective bargaining agreement, which is up for renewal this winter.
I see some pros and some cons to this move, but I don't fully understand why baseball officials want to once again change the playoff structure of the sport. It's something we're used to - is familiarity such a bad thing? - and it's something that works well as it is - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In this piece, I examine the history of baseball's post-season and the reasons for and against the proposed expansion.
Beginning in 1903, the champions of the American and National Leagues - one out of eight teams in each - played each other in the World Series. For over 60 years, it remained this way. When each league finally expanded to 12 teams in 1969, the leagues split in two, and the Western and Eastern division champions would then play each other in a best-of-five "divisional" playoff, also known as the League Championship Series. (This expanded to seven games in 1985.)
In 1993, the 26 teams grew to 28 with the addition of the Colorado Rockies and Florida Marlins, but even then still only the top two teams in each league went to the post-season. In 1994 the leagues reorganized themselves into three divisions - Western, Central, and Eastern. Since a 3-team playoff series would have been uneven, the Wild Card berth was added, and the team with the best record among non-division-leaders would get to play in the playoffs. While this is the system most of us are familiar with, it was not met with universal acclaim. In fact, the arguments against it nearly 20 years ago are many of the same arguments I use today - changing tradition, diminishing the importance of the regular season, and watering down the postseason.
"While many traditionalists have been disappointed by the way the expanded postseason gas reduced the importance of the regular season, MLB, the punditocracy, and most fans feel that the Wild Card has boosted interest in many cities late in the season. ... While there is little question that a Wild Card race fueled interest in [other] places... the long-term damage to the pennant races and to the postseason is substantial, even though less clear. Division Series attendance has been mediocre at best in many places as fans wait to see if their team will survive the lightning round and play for the pennant. Even worse, the magnitude of baseball's showcase event, the World Series, has dimmed dramatically since the 1980s.
- Peter Gammons, The 2006 ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia
|
|
Teams / Total
|
Post-season %
|
|
1903-1968:
|
2/16
|
12.5%
|
|
1969-1976:
|
4/24
|
16.7%
|
|
1977-1992:
|
4/26
|
15.4%
|
|
1993:
|
4/28
|
14.3%
|
|
1995-1997:
|
8/28
|
28.6%
|
|
1998-2011:
|
8/30
|
26.7%
|
|
2012? :
|
10/30
|
33.3%
|
NFL: 12/32 = 37.5%
NBA/NHL: 16/30 = 53.3%
While I cannot claim to know first hand how well the change took place in '95, I cannot imagine having 30 teams and only allow four to go to the playoffs. That would have been a mere 13%, and there seem to be a good reason for maintaining interest in more teams' markets throughout the dog days of summer. As you can see, the percentage of baseball teams that get to the playoffs has risen and fallen throughout the years, but it's at least still well below basketball and hockey where over 50% of teams earn "post-season" play. I do not understand the hockey playoff system - you play 82 games from October to April, and then over half of the teams get to play for up to two more months. Is it because the standings really are that close and the teams are that even? Is it because they think seven months of games isn't enough? I really think the need to get more markets excited about the postseason is outweighed by the watering down of the system and making the playoffs seem less important when four out of five teams in the Pacific division get to go. (But, I'm not really a hockey fan, so that's an outsider's perspective.)
So what would expanding the number of teams in baseball's post-season do to the game? Does expanding the fans' investment in a few more teams down the stretch really outweigh the drastic changes it would bring?
Bud Selig's proposal is to add one additional team in each league be a "wild card" team, and make the two wild card teams compete for the actual wild-card spot. (Interestingly, this is exactly the same as what Major League Soccer has implemented starting this season.) Overall, adding only one additional team to each league doesn't water it down too much; it only raises the percentage of teams in the post-season from 27% to 33%. But it does water down the wild card fight and diminish some of its luster, a sentiment echoed by many coaches and players. A team works all season for the other-best record and suddenly they have to play another team before they even get to be the wild card team. What about a case where a division goes down to the wire and the division title loser becomes the wild card team, and then they have to play another team to earn a spot in the post-season. That is going to be more frustrating than rewarding.
"Nobody wants to have to worry, 'Oh [expletive], now I've got another [expletive] team in the [expletive] mix. Now we have to worry about what that takes and what they're going to do.' What if the [second] wild-card team is not deserving of getting in?" -Tim Lincecum
"Baseball is unique because it's such a long season. The best teams are rewarded for all the effort that goes into that. You lose some of the mystique of the playoffs [with expansion]. Like the first round of the NBA playoffs -- who cares?" -Buster Posey
"We battle all year long in a very tough division; if you win the division and have to have five or six days off before the start of the playoffs, or you win the wild card and still have to play another one- or three-game series just to get into the playoffs, it doesn't make much sense." -Mark Texiera
And what if that second team is so far behind in the standings that they really don't deserve to be there? I took a look at the last nine years' worth of wild card standings (because that's all that was available on ESPN) to see if the battle for the wild card really was all that close.
Gap Between Wild Card Winners and Next Two Closest Teams
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AL WC
Games Back |
NL WC
Games Back |
|||
| 1st | 2nd | 1st | 2nd | |
|
2010
|
6 | 7 | 1 | 5 |
|
2009
|
8 | 9.5 | 4 | 5 |
|
2008
|
6 | 7.5 | 1 | 3.5 |
|
2007
|
6 | 6.5 | 1 | 1.5 |
|
2006
|
5 | 6 | 3 | 6 |
|
2005
|
2 | 7 | 1 | 6 |
|
2004
|
7 | 8 | 1 | 3 |
|
2003
|
1.5 | 6 | 4 | 5 |
|
2002
|
6 | 6 | 3.5 | 11.5 |
The National League wild card teams are perennially closer together than the American League teams, which means the wild card race is already a good race! Look at how many years there's been only a one game difference, and how much can affect that one game difference between teams. Some of those one-game gaps are due to tied teams already playing a one-game play-in, particularly 2007 as we all remember. That's already exciting! It's exciting because it's rare, and that makes it special. When two or even three teams are tied and get to battle it out for a few extra days to see who gets in - that already has a certain aura to it. When you always allow that second team in, make it happen every year and in each league, and it's just not special any more.
Then the fight, rather than a battle for second place becomes a battle for second and third place. As seen in the table, that race tends to be a little closer; in the last nine years, it was anywhere from tied to an 8-game difference. Are those teams that are 8 or 10 games behind the top four teams in the league really worthy of playing in the post-season? Sometimes even the division leaders have a poorer record than the wild card teams, but that adds to the privilege of winning your division. What's the privilege then of winning the wild card?
Now you're adding an additional round to the playoffs. It sounds as though there is no consideration to make this a 5- or 7-game series but either a one-game play-off (or play-in) or a 3-game series. I doubt players are going to vote on the single game to decide a wild card spot, especially those players in San Diego who claim Troy Tulowitzki still hasn't touched home plate, but then again, maybe they'll only go for it if it's quick and painless. Now you have four teams, two series, battling it out while the other six teams get four or five days off - to rest and heal, or lose momentum of their own. Either way, it's now an uneven competition. I see where that may give more incentive to fight for your division title, but then it's not as fair to that wild card winner who has a 6-game lead over the team behind them in second place that they now have to play, and in a single game or 3-game series, it could come down to a lucky bounce, a gust of wind, a pitcher not getting that strike called.
Now that you have an additional set of games (for some teams), what do you do to the schedule? Here's just a few of the start and end dates of the major league baseball season.
|
Year
|
Start Date
|
End Date
|
World Series
|
|
1903
|
April 20 | October 13 | 8 games |
|
1914
|
April 14 | October 13 | 4 games |
|
1940
|
April 16 | October 8 | 7 games |
|
1969
|
April 8 | October 16 | 5 games |
|
1977
|
April 7 | October 18 | 6 games |
|
1993
|
April 6 | October 23 | 6 games |
|
1995
|
April 26 | October 28 | 6 games |
|
1998
|
April 1 | October 21 | 4 games |
|
2010
|
April 5 | November 1 | 5 games |
154-game season started in 1920
162-game season started in 1961
Since the addition of divisional play in 1995, the World Series has ended anywhere between October 21st (1998: 4-game series) and November 4th (2001: 7-game series; 2009: 6-game series). The average end date of the entire season is October 29th. In the last 10 years alone, the World Series has only averaged 5.3 games, so imagine how late the seasons would've ended if those series had gone the full seven games. Now you're talking about adding another series, with more travel and possible weather delays in cities with absolutely lovely fall weather (/sarcasm) such as New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Minnesota, and Colorado; only six teams have covered stadiums at the moment.
| Year | World Series End | # Games | Year | World Series End | # Games |
| 1995 | October 28 |
6
|
2003 | October 25 |
6
|
| 1996 | October 26 |
6
|
2004 | October 27 |
4
|
| 1997 | October 26 |
7
|
2005 | October 26 |
4
|
| 1998 | October 21 |
4
|
2006 | October 27 |
5
|
| 1999 | October 27 |
4
|
2007 | October 28 |
4
|
| 2000 | October 26 |
5
|
2008 | October 27 |
5
|
| 2001 | November 4 regular season had a one-week delay |
7
|
2009 | November 4 |
6
|
| 2002 | October 27 |
7
|
2010 | November 1 |
5
|
Plus, what if there are additional playoff games needed to get into the wild card race? The schedulers about had a fit last fall when the Giants, Padres and Braves were on the verge of a three-way tie. Again, that was potentially very exciting, but you add two new teams to the race and two or three more teams jump into the fray as possibilities and then everybody has to prepare for travel to places unknown, sell tickets for games that may never be played, and potentially play that many more play-in games. As seen in the table above, those third place teams weren't far behind. Exciting it may be for some, it's also quite a headache for many other aspects of the logistics. And even for a big club such as the Boston Red Sox, going to the postseason isn't cheap.
The debate of baseball scheduling is nothing new. In October of 2009, the New York Times published a piece discussing a lot of the options and caveats of trying to adjust the schedule. As Peter Gammons opined in 2009:
[S]tart the season half a week earlier; someone much smarter than I points out that, as opposed to starting on Monday and getting no one at weekday games on Wednesday and Thursday, they should start on Thursday and play the first weekend.
They've done that starting this year, and as odd as it was for the first time, I would tend to bet that the opening series attendance numbers (or at least work productivity rates) were higher this year than in previous years. However, that ends the regular season on Wednesday, September 28th, and you have the reverse problem at the end of the season. Rather than get everybody excited for Opening Day it's and take off work to go to the ballpark, knowing your team has a chance because everybody's starting from 0-0, teams are going to have to find ways to get people to the ballparks for a weekday series against an opponent who likely is also already out of the picture.
I do see the appeal of wanting fans and players to feel invested in the games late in the season. Many of the Tampa Bay Rays are in favor of giving more teams a chance at the postseason - and the money it brings in - and they feel it's something the fans want. But it very much appears to be all about the money - more games, more interest, more revenue, and not all of that money goes to the players. I don't fully understand baseball's revenue rules; this article sheds some light, but I can imagine that with more players, more teams, and some teams earning a "bye" week, the money might overall be higher but possibly split between a larger group. And Johnny Damon points out that the season is already long, and injuries can pile up at the end of the year.
I personally strongly dislike the idea of adding two more teams and making it an uneven five team series, making it a less fair competition for some teams, making those tie play-in games less special, and lessening the prestige of the World Series. But let's say that Evan Longoria is right and the fans want this new round of the playoffs. Is it right to make two teams play a short series for the wild card spot, and what other options are there?
The NFL gives the two league leaders a bye week, and the other four teams play in the divisional round. This would work if MLB split into four divisions and brought in two teams as wild card teams, but allowing in 12 of 30 teams dilutes the playoffs way too far in a season where 162 games already gives you plenty of chances to get ahead as opposed to only a 16-game NFL season. Plus, in the American League, dividing 14 teams into four divisions would make them really thin.
Very few options work with five teams. You can't have only the top team earn a bye week because then after the first round, you're left with an uneven three teams. So with five, you have to make two teams play for one spot, and give the other three the series off. As mentioned above, this does give teams incentive to win the division, but you risk teams playing in the wild card who may not truly deserve to be there, and any lucky play can make a big difference in a short series. Do you really bring in that many new fans and, or do you just alienate them after a quick exit and injure players in a longer season? And how much luster does the postseason lose by expanding it for the sake of some extra money in the owners' pockets?
There truly is no easy answer. Fangraphs takes a look at the more logistical side of the new playoff scenarios, home field advantage and travel and the like. There's going to be plenty of debate on this issue in the next few months and the fall as Selig tries to get this plan into the players' new Collective Bargaining Agreement. The initial expansion into the Wild Card Era, as much as it was hated in the beginning, has proven to work: a wild card team has won the World Series four times and appeared in eight World Series. Who knows, maybe as much as I abhor the idea expansion now, it may grow on me down the road.
In 1995, when the wild card concept was introduced in the formula of determining major league championships, baseball purists were more than a little miffed. They didn't like the idea of wiping out a tradition that dated back to 1903 when the first World Series was held. Their argument against changing the way teams eventually earned the game's highest honor had some merit, but it didn't hold up for the simple reason the status quo would crush the hopes of too many fans who might lose interest in attending games if their favorite team was a lost cause in August and September. So, let it be said that there's nothing wrong with extending the hopes of fans rooting for teams that fail to finish on top of their division but are good enough to qualify for the playoffs via the wild card setup.
- John Kuenster, Baseball Digest, October 2006
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Comments
Hey Dave
1. Nice little slippery-slope fallacy there.
2. Your last name is probably pronounced in a way that’s rude
3. All four of those teams you mentioned made the postseason within four years of you writing that (and two of them played each other in the WS), so ha-ha
Bad doormat! No stock options!
I was initially
going to use your quote about Selig, but I liked Dave’s better. :P
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it because the standings really are that close and the teams are that even?
In the Western Conference, yes they are.
Per Mare, Per Terras
It is now
but it won’t always be that way.
I still don’t like having more than 50% of the teams get to go to the playoffs.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the Rays are in favor
Because two out of the past three years, the second wild-card would have come out of the AL East. The AL East and Central would benefit heavily from the addition of such a team, because there’s almost no chance, in a four-team division, of three teams finishing around 87-88 wins.
"While Mrs. SnakePit watched one of the most highly acclaimed films of the year, I sat through a badly made schlock fest with absolutely no redeeming value. And it was awesome."
I was amused that
the Rays said it would be good and yet Texiera said it wouldn’t be good for “someone like us”. (And not because they always win- the Yankees were the wild card last year.)
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
The beginning of his quote was
“For a team like us, I don’t like it,” Teixeira said, according to the New York Daily News.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
That is another argument in support of what Jenny said about the NHL.
I can concede that. With an extra wildcard, 3 teams in the AL East could make the post season. I doubt the AL West would be able to pull that off though, I just cant see 3 teams winning 87-88 games in a 4 team division.
Per Mare, Per Terras
But I don't see
our teams even all that close. Look at the table – the AL wild card runner up was regularly 6-7 games behind. In the NL, it was closer.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
But it is all about money
That’s the bottom-line. And that’s why it’ll end up happening, regardless of what the players or fans think.
"While Mrs. SnakePit watched one of the most highly acclaimed films of the year, I sat through a badly made schlock fest with absolutely no redeeming value. And it was awesome."
Players still have to vote for it
but yeah they may agree that it’s about the money and support it.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you're right
but I’m so tired of the cheap bush-league hucksterism to get people into ballparks. The game itself beautiful and doesn’t need gimmickry.
by NASCARbernet on Apr 25, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
And to be succssful it needs to be
marketed as such.
I'm not so sure
the game seemed to do pretty well before the DH…
by NASCARbernet on Apr 25, 2011 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
The game itself beautiful and doesn’t need gimmickry.
And to be successful it needs to be marketed as such.
i.e without all the BS. A little goes a long way.
And I hate the DH.
Ah, thanks, I didn't understand your comment
I see we’re sympatico on the topic. I think more than anything I hate the toying with the core principles of the game itself, which has been going on since the Bowie Kuhn days.
by NASCARbernet on Apr 25, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I Agree With Timmeh
Don’t need more [expletive] teams, unless there is a tie for the wild card.
(of course, I still consider the DH an abomination)
I'm working my way to grumpy old curmudgeon status with all the grace I can muster.
The DH IS an abomination
every single move made by baseball since lowering the pitcher’s mound in 1969 has been to water down competition. With this latest proposal by the worst commissioner in history, I see no point in even having a regular season anymore, with it’s quaint historical records and backwards personalities who thought winning meant something.
by NASCARbernet on Apr 25, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
But see
the tie for the wild card is already exciting! It happens every now and then, even 3-team ties are possible. Imagine now if you had 4 teams tied for 2 spots…… what a mess.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Extending the playoffs
Would probably leave the same bitter taste in my mouth that I had when I found out that they changed the ASG format – Bleh -
The idea looks a lot better if two more expansion teams were added. The AL West is still a joke and unless they’re willing to switch Houston (and they never will) over they should add another team sometime in the near future. Add one more expansion team to even things out (Las Vegas to the NL West?) and suddenly the extended playoffs have just enough merit to make it more bearable.
Wear your own fur.
If there were two expansion teams
They’d both have to be AL, since the NL has a 16-14 team advantage ATM
Bad doormat! No stock options!
But
Is a 17-15 advantage any different than a 16-14?
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Apr 25, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
That's an odd number of teams :)
You can’t play games between sets of 2 teams with an odd man out EVERY TIME.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Having the odd teams
Play interleague doesn’t bother me, but I get the idea now. I was dead wrong with my assumption.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Apr 25, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, with more teams, you'd need more playoff spots
But 8/30 is plenty for me!
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Who would have thought
that I would wind up standing right alongside Timmeh at some point? But he’s right in opposing this really bad idea.
I sure hope his opinion holds some sway
with the rest of the players’ union.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Ultimately, this is likely about player salaries
and revenues. The fact is, baseball, like the other major sports, are in difficult times.
by NASCARbernet on Apr 25, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I found it interesting
that the quote from Gammons in ‘06 said division series attendance was already bad. I couldn’t find anything to back that up, all I saw were articles that said the total attendance numbers were high.
But are fans really going to pay playoff money to see a short series? Or, like Gammons says about the 5-game series already, are they just going to wait and see if their teams make it out?
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Regular Season Too
For a short series, I think the attendance will be good, since each game has added importance.
Aside from the extra attendance from the playoff series, fans of more teams will be interested in the regular season, since more teams will be playing meaningful games down the stretch.
But to me
those all sound like financial reasons.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
So?
I’m not sure if I understand your point. If it gets more fans in the park in more cities, why is that necessarily a bad thing?
Well, as I already said in my article above
I strongly believe it waters down the competition and prestige of the playoffs, messes up the schedule, and adds in tons of logistical nightmares (as the Fangraphs piece I linked to discusses).
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Amit's point is
and I tend to agree with this….is that if the issues you are talking about (watering down competition, logistics, prestige) matter, then they will ultimately be reflected financially. in other words, the market naturally adjusts (as it always tends to do)
if in fact increasing a playoff round will actually improve revenue for MLB, then definitionally speaking (from a utilitarian standpoint) more people are happy with the added playoff round (and we will know this, because more people are willing to spend money on the final product)
i guess i’m just a lot less sentimental about the game than some fans, and i tend to think the average fan is probably a lot less sentimental about the game (which is why revenues will probably rise from such a move). this is why i don’t have a problem with MLB making a move that is aimed at improving its money-making capacity (isn’t that what we all are trying to do in life?)
by blue bulldog on Apr 25, 2011 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
No Control of this "Experiment"
The fallacy of the market argument is the assumption above that as long as total revenue goes up, that means the fans liked it better than the present system. However, there is no way to know how much total revenue would have changed (up or down) if the playoff format change was NOT made.
In addition, it may take the fans a few years of “extra wildcards” to adjust to the fact that the regular season matters even less than it does now, and to quit following the regular season as closely. This would be reflected in a revenue bump when the format change is introduced, followed by a (possible) decline a few years later. Unfortunately, you’ll never be able to really assess the impact of moves like this by looking at the revenue stream. I’ve always thought (with no data to back me up) that all sports will continue to push additional games/playoffs up until the time fans just get tired of the whole spectacle and quit watching. Then it’s too late.
But it hasn’t happened yet, so what do I know?
by Craig from Az on Apr 26, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't Think It's That Terrible
One big problem I have with the Wild Card now, is that there is little incentive to win the Division. We’ve lost several exciting Division races over the last few years because the Wild Card allowed both teams to make the playoffs. By making the two Wild Cards play each other in an elimination round, it does give a clear advantage to Division Winners, which is a good thing.
If they do this, I think the Series should be no longer than three games. Otherwise, the Division Winners will have over a week with no games, which is not an advantage (unlike the NFL).
I disagree
Your one scenario only works when the division leader and wild card leaders were in the same division. But there are two other divisions! Think of the weaker divisions, where the 86-win team HAS to win the division to get to the playoffs. There’s only one wild card spot and three divisions titles to win.
Besides, think of 07 where Arizona, San Diego and Colorado were ALL within striking distance of the title / wild card. Az really backed into that win, and Colorado had a heck of a fight. That’s good baseball. It wouldn’t have been nearly as exciting if all 3 teams were already in.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at Last Year
For example, last year the Rays and Yankees could have been battling for the division title, but instead they both phoned it in during the last week of the season, since they both were in easily because of the Wild Card. By giving a clear advantage to a division winner, you make all 2 or 3 contending teams play harder for the Division title, even if they all make the playoffs.
The same problem happened in the 2008 AL East, the 2006 AL Central, and the 2006 NL West. That’s 4 times in the last 5 years – to me, that’s frequent enough that addressing it should be considered.
In 2007
the three NLW clubs wouldnt have ‘already’ been in under the new proposal, until the season literally ended, because the Mets (88-74) were on the Padres heels, making a third club vying for two WC spots (not to mention their respective divisions).
As Amit indicated, establishing more meaningful benefits between division winners versus wild card team(s) that a play-in round establishes, elevates the importance of those final regular season contests….for all five teams in your example (ARI, COL, SDG, NYM, PHI). The consequences are larger, not smaller.
The problem with the current Wild Card, as I see it, is there’s not nearly enough wild about it. Once you get in, there’s precious little distinction between you and the division winners. It’s basically a four team playoff in a three division structure.
I favor a one game play-in round in the proposed setup. First, it’s exciting and direct, like an NCAA tourney game. Second, these teams arent owed anything longer than that. They are not division winners – they are wild card recipients and are fortunate to be in the mix. Third, the WC team with the better W/L will normally have a better opportunity to schedule its ace for the play-in. Fourth, a single game doesnt drag out the schedule by much and might kick start fan interest rather than erode it with “best of whatever” business as usual.
I think your strongest point is about the increased probability of more ties, but a statistical tiebreaker protocol that everyone understands and agrees to before the season could address that and prevent schedule creep. Again, tied WC hopefuls would by definition, be the fifth and sixth most ‘deserving’ squads in each league. They dont warrant a play- in to the play-in to the playoffs. If they’re both 86-76, pick the one who won head to head, or whatever, and move on.
btw, a marvelous piece of research on your part.
by Diamondhacks on Apr 25, 2011 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you, I appreciate it
I do totally understand the argument to get more teams whose games have an impact, and by pushing those 3rd place teams who are only a game or two out rather than 9 or 10 out. And I see bb’s point that if their teams make more money off their fans, they can spend more and everybody benefits.
But I’m not sure those teams 9 or 10 games back deserve to be there, just as a lot of people gripe about division leaders who have a record way behind the current wild card teams.
And like Lincecum said, I wouldn’t think the players would want to have 3 or 4 more teams on their radar in terms of planning or travel. It’s just going to be way more complicated.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh and even though
I totally understand wanting to get more team involved, I still think it’s a dumb idea and don’t want it to go to 10. :) But like that quote at the end shows, I may be completely wrong.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree with this
it’s definitely an interesting added incentive structure
by blue bulldog on Apr 25, 2011 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
10 is just such a weird number to build a playoff system around
This just seems more like the NCAA tourney adding those stupid play-in games than actually adding another round to the playoffs, since I don’t see how realistically and logistically the first round could be more than a single do or die game without extending the already too long season drastically into November. In baseball, if you do not make the playoffs, there’s very little way to shift any blame off of your own ballclub, since 162 games is more than ample time to get a pretty good idea of the true talent level of teams. If you miss the playoffs by a single game, I have no sympathy for you since you probably had 6-7 good opportunies to get that win or two early in the season you squandered.
8 teams with one wild card in each league continues to be the best format given the number of teams and the absurdety of the AL/NL “do not cross, we don’t want your kind here” wall.
I think you're absolutely right
sadly though this isn’t about the quality of the competition, it’s about selling cars, oops, I mean revenue.
by NASCARbernet on Apr 25, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you kidding?
With more playoff teams that means more games that you can go to with both speed and luxury in your new Cadillac CTS-V
Bad doormat! No stock options!
I rented one of those in SF last summer
a bear to park, but nice on the freeway.
by NASCARbernet on Apr 25, 2011 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Especially SF freeways I bet
Our roads are so crappy.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It was pointless renting a car...
Everything was within either walking distance or a short hop on the BART. I hate public transportation, but in a place like San Francisco, it’s the lesser of two evils.
by NASCARbernet on Apr 25, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
For staying IN SF yeah, no car needed
I absolutely love public transportation (if done right). So much easier to get around town.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 8:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yep. Exactly.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 25, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I have mixed feelings. I don’t mind the system the way it is now.
However, the NHL lets about half the teams in the league into the playoffs, and I think they have the best playoffs in all of pro sports. You see 7 and 8 seeds knock out 1 and 2 seeds all the time. Granted, hockey is a much different sport than baseball.
And so does the NBA
But (with the notable exception of this year, which has actully been pretty entertaining) the first round of the NBA playoffs is usually about as interesting as that thing no one is interested in, and we’d probably all be better off starting with the top 4 teams in each conference. Hockey benefits from the unpredictability, while the NBA makes us feel like we wasted two weeks watching the 1-4 seeds win, so it’s easy to see both sides of the “wow teams with losing records are in the playoffs” argument. And as much as I love me some playoff hockey, I don’t think that could be replicated in any other league.
except
having 5-8 seeds in each conference and an extra rounds means you will get four more games of playoff revenue, at least. unless you think 1) not a single person attended the Celtics/Knicks four-game series; or 2) for some reason, the fact that there’s a first round in which the 1 seed plays the 8 seed, fewer people will now attend subsequent rounds
there’s simply no way either of the two situations above is true. which means that at least SOME people are willing to spend money (and are happy that the playoffs are expanded) and those who are less excited about it are still willing to cough up money and enjoy the change. do you see how net utility in society is up because of that?
by blue bulldog on Apr 25, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, yeah, from a $$ perspective there's not even a comparison here
More playoffs will == more dollars 99.999% of the time. I totally agree. The fanbase of nearly any team in the playoffs will almost universally buy tickets, whether or not their team is the top seed or is getting abused by the top seed, because fans tend to see their team as always having a chance. And in the strictest terms, yes, every team in the playoffs does have a chance, regardless of how remote.
So the money will always flow. I don’t think anyone is disputing this, and I think if MLB playoffs expand there will be more money made just because of the fact there’s more baseball to be played. I didn’t think that was the issue here.
by SenSurround on Apr 25, 2011 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Tournaments
are inherently ridiculous, so what does it matter? Also, from a quality point of view, adding a 2nd Wild Card to each league wouldn’t dilute anything. The top 5 in each league is still pretty good, and you’ll see good baseball. I like this idea because it would maybe increase the advantage winning your division would have: more rest. Wild Cards should have to go through hell to get to the championship.
I'm daydreaming on a strawberry swing.
I don't think the rest
would do a whole lot, though, because just as much as it lets you rest, it also takes away any momentum you have. Colorado lost their momentum after they swept us in 4 games and sat around cooling their heels for the WS. The hot hand may not be proven, but players sure believe in it.
I agree going from 8 to 10 doesn’t dilute it as much as I feared they were going to do, which was 12. 12/30 would be too much.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 26, 2011 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
And I know, I'm probably contradicting myself
by saying losing momentum may balance out the benefit to a rest. But at least in NBA and NHL, the series are all even.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 26, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Wild Cards should have to go through hell to get to the championship
This is the key competitive virtue of the proposal, not getting “more teams involved”, which I actually do think dilutes reaching the playoffs somewhat. The wildcard route is too attractive today, too similar in benefits to division titles that it creates disincentives to win (incentives to ‘settle’ for second).
Complicating the wild card path to success (by adding a play-in game or ‘round’) makes it a considerably less attractive position to be in, and the more distinct, two tiered playoff system that results, promotes healthier competitive incentives.
Let’s say you’re a real strong team, like the Red Sox or Phils. It’s September and the Braves and Yankees are on pace to win 100, and you find yourself four back with 19 to play, and you’re four up in the Wild Card. Today, you’re fairly content. You’re really looking behind you rather than trying to catch the leader, and so are most of your fans. You just want to “get in” any way you can.
But what if the WC has a separate play-in round, or worse, a sudden death elimination game? You’re on pace to win 96-97 regular season games. It’s been a successful year, but do you really want the season’s legacy to balance on something so tenuous? Making the new wild card seed is still better than not making it (as before), but it’s much less attractive than winning that division all of a sudden, and teams will devote more resources towards that more attractive end. They’ll rest stars and pitchers less frequently, because those late season tilts, especially the head to heads, will have greater postseason implications.
by Diamondhacks on Apr 26, 2011 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions
i think it's important to note also
that there will be increased demand for trades midseason as more teams try to position themselves (both division leaders as they try to solidify their position and both teams on the bubble trying to push their way into the playoffs)
i think that’s an added element that would make the season more interesting
by blue bulldog on Apr 26, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
That was actually an argument
against the proposed expansion in ‘93. Once you add more teams (which they did), you’re diluting the talent pool. And then you’re diluting the talent pool available at the August deadline because more teams want to keep their players. Interesting, maybe, but also maybe more frustrating.
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 26, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
July/August deadline
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 26, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
And, right now, if teams
are tied for the division/wild card, there’s no big deal, there’s a record that determines who’s the leader and WC. That’ll have to change, making it more games after the end of the season.
Once that team that was tied for the WC/division lead plays a team 7 games back in second place and loses in a 1-game win-or-go-home format, they’re going to say “Forget it, we’d rather there only be one.”
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 26, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course, the flip side is
all those teams 7 or 8 games back are going to say “We love this.”
So it’s a matter of who wins out at the vote in December…….
I stopped reading. Now I just write sarcastic, angry comments.. -- soco
They're not even cooking the ice! -- kishi
by snakecharmer on Apr 26, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions






















