Multi-year Deals For Veterans: Do They Work?
The signing of John McDonald to a two-year deal means that Arizona now has on their books the two oldest players in the majors, in McDonald and Geoff Blum, to have been signed to contracts longer than one season. As last year with Blum, McDonald's signing provoked a fair bit of discussion - with the nay-sayers pointing to Blum's basic zero value to the team in 2010 as evidence against this kind of deal. I thought it might be interesting to take a look back at the history of players that age being signed for more than one year. Does that kind of contract work out for the team?
The following table lists all players, aged 37 or older, who have signed multi-year contracts since the 2006-07 off-season. It lists their age (on this date in the year in question), how much the contract was for, their production (all figures in this piece are bWAR), and what that production is valued at, using a straight rate of $4m per WAR to simplify things, given the five-year range covered.
| 2006 | Age | Years | Cost | WAR | WAR/yr | Value |
| Orlando Hernandez, SP |
37 | 2 | $12m | 2.1 | 1.05 | $8.4m |
| Mike Mussina, SP |
37 | 2 | $23m | 4.7 | 2.35 | $18.8m |
| Mike Stanton, RP | 39 | 2 | $5.5m | -0.3 | -0.15 | $0.0m |
| Frank Thomas, DH | 38 | 2 | $18.13m | 2.0 | 1.0 | $8.0m |
| Woody Williams, SP | 40 | 2 | $12.5m | 0.5 | 0.25 | $2.0m |
| 2007 | Age | Years | Cost | WAR | WAR/yr | Value |
| Troy Percival, RP |
38 | 2 | $8m | -0.4 | -0.2 | $0.0m |
| 2008 | Age | Years | Cost | WAR | WAR/yr | Value |
| Jamie Moyer, SP |
45 | 2 | $13m | 0.4 | 0.2 | $1.6m |
| Arthur Rhodes, RP |
39 | 2 | $4m | 2.9 | 1.45 | $11.6m |
| 2009 | Age | Years | Cost | WAR | WAR/yr | Value |
| Ivan Rodriguez, C |
37 | 2 | $6m | 0.4 | 0.2 | $0.8m |
| 2010 | Age | Years | Cost | WAR | WAR/yr | Value |
| Geoff Blum, 3B | 37 | 2 | $2.7m | 0.0 | 0.0 | $0.0m |
| Jose Contreras, RP |
38 | 2 | $5.5m | 0.1 | 0.1 | $0.4m |
| Mariano Rivera, RP | 40 | 2 | $18m | 3.5 | 3.5 | $14.0m |
The first thing to note is that multi-year deals for those of this age are really, really rare, especially for position players. During the previous five off-seasons, only three such men aged 37 or older (on this date in the year) received contracts for longer than a single campaign. None of them have come close to living up to the cost. In total, they have been paid more than $25 million, and in a total of five player-seasons [Geoff Blum still having his second one to go], produced a total of 2.4 WAR.
Admittedly, expectation are way lower for John McDonald than Frank Thomas or Ivan Rodriguez, two possible future Hall of Famers. But if John managed to reach even 0.8 WAR over the next two years, thereby justifying the $3 million cost in that time, he'll be the only position player his age to do so in recent baseball history. Things aren't much better for the nine pitchers on the list: Arthur Rhodes is the sole case whose production justified the cost, though if Rivera's 2012 is anything like his 2011, that deal should work out for the Yankees too.
In general, however, it's not too much of an exaggeration to say that old players...well, largely suck. Of the position players aged 37 or older who had any plate appearances in the majors from 2009-2011, more than 42% were replacement level or lower. That compares to 35.6% across all ages, but let's see exact;y how that number compares for other age brackets in the majors over the past three seasons.
| Age | % WAR <= 0 |
| < 22 (n=26) | 26.9% |
| 22-24 (235) | 42.6% |
| 25-27 (451) | 37.0% |
| 28-30 (321) | 34.0% |
| 31-33 (241) | 30.7% |
| 34-36 (125) | 29.6% |
| 37+ (64) | 42.2% |
It's an interesting chart, at first suggesting we need to stuff the team with those not yet old enough to drink [think of the money we'll also save by replacing playoff champagne with sparkling apple-juice!]. However, the fact that the 21 and under crowd are the least likely to blow chunks is easily explained - if you're playing in the majors at that age, you're a very special talent, making failure less likely. The names on the list include the likes of Mike Stanton, Justin Upton and Jason Heyward, After that, the level of suckage increases sharply, as the less talented rookies arrive, and experience their share of struggles.
The percentage who are replacement level or worse declines for every age group thereafter. That's not much of a surprise either, due to the self-selection involved. If you're no good in the majors at age 26, you probably won't be in the majors at 29. However, that appears only to go so far, and once a player reaches his late-30s, time appears to catch up, fast. This is nicely illustrated - and somewhat corroborated - by the following graph, which comes from a study on player aging done by Jeremy Greenhouse last year. As you see, once you're past 35, players tend to decline in value quite rapidly..

The growing old not-so gracefully applies not just at the bottom end of the spectrum. Over the same time-frame (2009-11), 219 players put up seasons at or above 3.0 WAR: a mere three were 37+: Manny Ramirez (2009 LAD); Chipper Jones (2010 ATL); and Jim Thome (2010 MIN). And at least one of those numbers probably deserves a big, fat, well-fertilized asterisk beside it - perhaps copied and pasted from the ones beside the trio of double-digit WAR seasons posted by B. Bonds, Esq, at ages 37-39 from 2002-04.
You might think reduced playing time is a factor there, but the median number of games played by the 64 veterans was a respectable 90 games, with about 290 plate appearances. While no-one expects a three WAR season from McDonald, that's still significantly more playing time than he will likely get, in his role as a back-up - over the past four years, he has averaged only 46 starts per season and 193 PAs. However, the Greenhouse study quoted above suggests that good defenders and bad hitters tend to age better than their opposites. On that basis, if you're going to give a 37-year old a multi-year contract, John McDonald might be the best candidate for the position.
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I'm not
sure I like the idea of collecting old, dusty players to multi-year deals.
Tomorrow is another day.
Then
you might want to consider starting a movement to get rid of KT because he seems to view that as kind of his hobby of sorts
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 7, 2011 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
Him holding a 3 year guarantee,
a wasted effort that would be.
"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan
A contract
is mearly a suggestion. Did Melvin, Hinch, and Josh Byrnes teach you nothing?
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 8, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
No, not a thing.
Point was that since management appears to be currently enamored with KT as much as he is with his vets, such an effort would be futile.
However, next June it could be a different story.
"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan
The chart suggests
that the relief pitcher Arthur Rhodes was a huge steal, overperforming his deal by $7m over two seasons.
Also, I think the size of the deals matters. It’s insane that someone paid $13m for two years of 45-year-old Jamie Moyer, but signing a backup infielder for less than $3m isn’t such a big deal. Even a small-market team can handle losing that kind of money — witness the huge hits we (didn’t) take when we cut Russell Branyan and Melvin Mora on salaries like that.
The biggest problem with deals like this, I think, is that they minimize the chance of lightning striking. The kind of guys you want as backups are guys like Cowgill and Roberts — guys who probably won’t be better than replacement-level but might also find themselves (like Roberts) and work their way into a starting position. With an old guy, that is never, ever going to happen. Willie B. is a good example: the guy had a career year, but is simply too old to sustain that level of production. It’s just a speed bump on the way to their inevitable decline.
McDonald will probably be just fine at his position for the next couple years. He’ll probably be what we expect. What he won’t be is better than we expect, because he simply can’t.
It surely eliminates the lightning strike, and when done on last years scale
it can substantially reduce playing time for any others that could develop.
If Nady was more capable in left field, would Parra have hit as well, and won a gold glove? If Blum wasn’t injured, what would Roberts have done?
"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan
Great points, xmet and Nonpartisan
I’d add that the fact that McDonald (like Blum) were signed so early in the FA period is also highly problematic. Why Towers thinks that those type of players won’t be available later in free agency is beyond me. If you really need a Blum or a McDonald to fill out the roster in February, so be it… but we don’t know het what Drew’s health for 2012 will be, not to mention the fact that we need to upgrade at either 2B or 3B and should be targeting that in free agency. The whole thing confirms my suspicions about Towers’ inability to add key parts to a team that is already primarily constructed.
"Slump? I ain't in no slump. I just ain't hitting." Yogi Berra
+1
the timing of the deal also doesn’t make a whole lot of sense
by blue bulldog on Nov 7, 2011 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
The biggest problem with deals like this, I think, is that they minimize the chance of lightning striking.
Yet the Dbacks had unexpected lightning strikes all over the diamond. Mora and Blum busted, but Roberts surprised everyone to post the third best bWAR among NL third basemen. Kelly Johnson struggled mightily, but Towers caught late season lightning with Aaron Hill. Branyan and Miranda fizzled, then Goldschmidt electrified first. Nady nor Bloomie could man left, so Parra ignited his transformative season. Galarraga and Duke were awful – then came Collmenter and Owings. Marquis followed by…Miley. Heilman and Gutey replaced with Ziegler and Shaw.
For all the maligned players KT brought in, he not only managed to identify (or obliviously oversee) an impressive collection of unexpectedly positive individual contributions; he also reduced negative bWAR from the 2010 roster by almost six wins ( -14.3 vs -8.5). While reducing payroll.
I dont think Towers is soley responsible for a 29 game improvement. But maybe lightning isnt something that haphazardly strikes, so much as it’s corraled and conducted within a roster via a nimble and transparent culture of competitive merit.
aren't your examples
universally showing why signing old people is a bad idea?
More and Blum sucked
But Branyan was caught in a 1B logjam that didn’t offer him any PT, Bloomquist was useful at SS, and the rest aren’t particularly old… Heilman I guess was old-ish, but we’ve gone through that debacle already. The rest (KJ, Miranda, Nady, Galarraga, Duke, Marquis, Gutierrez) were all relatively young, and still stunk in their own ways.
Lots of players underperform. Not just old dudes.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 8, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
tsk tsk
logic problem :)
i never said young people don’t underperform. i simply said old people tend to underperform. they are not mutually exclusive :P
seriously though, he hasn’t shown me an example of an old dude overperforming. the only contract last year where we can distinctly show an old dude overperforming is Henry Blanco.
But you said that old people tend to underperform
And implied that it was some quality unique just to them.
I would argue (as I did in my report card) that Bloomquist over-performed as well, considering that expectations were around replacement-level or worse, and he also chipped in a good post-season.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 8, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
And Bloomquist's reward was
we’ll pick up your option, but if you don’t accept now we’ll gladly give more to a comparable but older player, because your agent rubbed me the wrong way.
I suspect Boras will go out of his way to get Drew signed elsewhere when the time comes.
"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan
If agents and GMs held grudges like that
Nobody would ever get signed anywhere.
Apparently there was dialogue between the D-backs and Boras Corp. the last couple days, which is both encouraging from a future moves standpoint and terrifying from a current roster construction standpoint.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 8, 2011 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
unfortunately
right now, the encouraging from a future moves standpoint doesn’t outweigh the terrifying from a current roster construction standpoint for me
Really?
I’d rather have access to Boras’ clients in the future if the cost is, what, $2.5MM total? Who cares if Bloomquist gets injured or cut after half of a season, Boras represents the best and I want us to be able to target the best if we want to.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 8, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
??
for someone who seems hellbent on not overpaying, you seem to have shifted your tone
as you agreed with previously, the best are always overpaid. does that mean you are okay with overpaying for free agents, and just not Reyes then?
by blue bulldog on Nov 8, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Wait a minute
When did I say that the best are always overpaid? I am totally lost here. There are tons of examples (Halladay, Lee, Pujols pre-’12, Tulowitzki – length a bit crazy issue but AAV is marvelous – Utley, Beltre – on a brand new free-market contract, too – King Felix, and even Berkman come up off the top of my head) where elite players are properly compensated. I want us to have access to that market if we ever choose to dabble in it.
The players that are mostly likely to be overpaid are those who teams misjudge as truly elite players and pay according to an elite standard, only to have them fail to live up to that billing (Ryan Howard, Jayson Werth). Jose Reyes, for as great as his 2011 was, is a strong candidate to be one of those guys.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 9, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
remember when i said the best are always overpaid in free agency
and you said you agreed 100%?
I may have
But I was, clearly, wrong. I can’t keep track of all of this stuff. I lack your super lawyer powers.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 9, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
We're defining "lightning strikes" differently
I’m talking about finding a player who turns into a long-term starter despite his past history not suggesting that’s likely. Roberts and Bloomquist both had career years last year — but Roberts’ career year means we have a surprisingly excellent long-term third baseman. Bloomquist’s career year means he had a career year and will continue to decline because he’s old. It’s not Bloomquist’s fault; he played his heart out and seemed to really find his swing in a way he never has in his career. But it’s simply too late for him to become a long-term star, because his body will start betraying him soon if it hasn’t already.
You can get career years out of young guys. You can get career years out of old guys. What you can’t get out of old guys is career years that turn into long-term starters, because their bodies are simply not capable of it. (Unless they are Jamie Moyer…and even then.)
As you see, once you’re past 35, players tend to decline in value quite rapidly.
Actually, what I see from that graph is a straight line downward from about age 30 on. The only significance of age 35 is that is when the WAR value went into the negative.
Too bad that “veteraniness” (as one ‘Pitter calls it) doesn’t factor into WAR calculations.
Riding the Gibbytrain since 2011!
Since it is an average,
I suspect that the data would show that the steep decliners are offset by those who age well to provide a straight line.
A good example of where analysis of the underlying data could be useful, and overall averages can be misleading.
"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan
Reply to TylerO
Fail
"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan
Click through the link
To the study on player aging mentioned. More interesting data there.
"We have to resist it. Do whatever you have to. Cross your fingers. Say a prayer. Think of a basket of kittens. But do not give in to the fear..."
Yep,
"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan
and thanks.
That makes a lot more sense than the overall average.
"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan
OK, I've read the background study
and the extra graphs, but I still think my point is valid- 30, not 35, is the age at which the player’s WAR starts declining, and that decline, be it steep or shallow, is pretty much a straight line from about age 30 to age 39. A scatter plot would be an interesting addition- do individual WAR figures remain equally scattered in later years, or is there a trend toward (or away from) the average?
Riding the Gibbytrain since 2011!
I didn't disagree with your point,
but if a player isn’t smart enough to see when it is time to quit, the inevitable steep drop will occur if he is allowed to keep playing. Most players are dropped before that happens because younger, cheaper players are available to take their place. Apparently in KT land the steep drop has to happen before he gives up on a preferred vet.
"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan
I like MacDonald
as a backup shortstop for late inning defense if Drew proves to be less than his old self. What I can’t understand is why we think we needed to give MacDonald 2 years to sign him. Same with Blum last year. KT must be a lousy negotiator?
I just think
He doesn’t see it as a huge issue, while the other side sees it as a big incentive to sign here. Would you rather give McDonald one year at $2-2.25MM or two years at $3MM? I think KT prefers the latter contract.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 8, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Except
McDonald has never been paid $2m for any year in his career. The past two has been at $1.5m, so seems a stretch to think he’d get a career high income at age 37.
"We have to resist it. Do whatever you have to. Cross your fingers. Say a prayer. Think of a basket of kittens. But do not give in to the fear..."
Sure
But if he preferred Toronto, we needed something over the Jays, who also wanted him back.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 9, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions

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