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Around SBN: Upon Further Review: Bo Knows Longreads

Where Do Randy Johnson + Curt Schilling Rank In Pitching Duos?

PHOENIX, AZ - SEPTEMBER 10:  Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling, former members of the 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks World Series team stand for the National Anthem before the game against the San Diego Padres at Chase Field. (Photo by Christian Petersen/Getty Images)

While I was reviewing the Cy Young results last week, I noted that the Arizona pair of Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson were the only duo in the National League to play for the same team and come 1-2 in CY voting since 1977 - and they did it both in 2001 and 2002. That got me wondering, how do their numbers stacked up against the other great pitching tandems in baseball history? After the jump, we'll take a look at exactly that, and see where the Big Unit and the Big Mouth rank.

Star-divide

I went with bWAR for an objective evaluation of players. FIP, the core of fWAR for pitchers, may be a better predictor of future performance but, while reducing a pitcher's performance to K, BB and HR allowed (the only factors in FIP) may get rid of defensive factors, it would seem to throw out a great deal more. Additionally, the tools at B-R.com are a lot easier to use and the data goes back further as well - the last is an important consideration, for the later parts of this article.

The 2011 seasons

First of all, here are the combined numbers for every team's 1-2 starters in the majors last year. I used WAR as the judge of who were a side's top two, filtering out "obvious" relief pitchers. Amusingly, Doug Fister managed to be the #2 both for Seattle, with whom he started the season, and for Detroit, to where he was traded. I think it's interesting to note how, of the top six pitching duos, only two (the Phillies and Tigers) made the post-season, and neither of them made the World Series. Of course, no matter how well they may pitch, any team will still need to find starting pitchers outside their front pair for about 97 games per year.

Team #1, #2 WAR W-L ERA
PHI Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee 14.2 36-14 2.37
DET Justin Verlander, Doug Fister 11.2 32-6 2.27
BOS Josh Beckett, Jon Lester 11.0 28-16 3.18
LAD Clayton Kershaw, Hiroki Kuroda 10.6 34-19 2.65
LAA Jered Weaver, Dan Haren 10.6 34-18 2.79
NYY C.C. Sabathia, Ivan Nova 10.4 35-12 3.29
TBR James Shields, Jeremy Hellickson 10.3 29-22 3.72
TEX C.J. Wilson, Matt Harrison 9.0 30-16 3.15
OAK Gio Gonzalez, Brandon McCarthy 8.7 25-21 3.21
SFG Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain 8.3 25-25 2.81
ARI Ian Kennedy, Daniel Hudson 8.1 37-16 3.18
SEA Felix Hernandez, Doug Fister 7.8 17-26 3.41
ATL Tim Hudson, Jair Jurrjens 7.4 29-16 3.11
TOR Ricky Romero, Brandon Morrow 7.3 26-22 3.72
CHW Mark Buehrle, Phillip Humber 7.0 22-18 3.67
NYM R.A. Dickey, Chris Capuano 6.6 19-25 3.88
CIN Johnny Cueto, Mike Leake 6.4 21-14 3.11
COL Jhoulys Chacin, Jason Hammel 6.3 18-27 4.13
STL Chris Carpenter, Kyle Lohse 6.2 25-17 3.43
MIL Shaun Marcum, Randy Wolf 6.0 26-17 3.62
CLE Justin Masterson, Josh Tomlin 6.0 24-17 3.66
FLA Anibal Sanchez, Javier Vasquez 5.9 21-20 3.68
MIN Scott Baker, Carl Pavano 5.8 17-19 3.86
PIT Jeff Karstens, Paul Maholm 5.6 15-23 3.52
SDP Mat Latos, Tim Stauffer 4.5 18-26 3.60
KCR Bruce Chen, Luke Hochevar 4.3 23-19 4.28
BAL Jeremy Guthrie, Zach Britton 4.2 20-28 4.45
WSN Jordan Zimmermann, Ross Detwiler 4.0 12-16 3.13
HOU Wandy Rodriguez, Bud Norris 4.0 17-22 3.63
CHC Matt Garza, Ryan Dempster 3.8 20-24 4.07

Recent history

Now, let's start cranking up the wayback machine, and see who led the majors each season. After some thought, I didn't just opt for straight total WAR here, but went for the team whose #2 had the highest WAR i.e. the franchise with the highest floor. For example, in 2010, the top WAR would have been the Phiilies, with Halladay (7.0) and Cole Hamels (4.8) combining for 11.8. However, the heaviest 1-2 punch was the Red Sox, with Clay Buchholz (5.3) and Lester (5.0). Even though their total WAR was lower, at 10.3, Lester's 5.0 was better than Hamels 4.8, by this standard making them a tougher duo overall. But, in most years, it didn't matter.

Here are the numbers for the past 20 seasons.

Year #1, #2 (team)
WAR W-L ERA
2011 Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee (PHI)
14.2 36-14 2.37
2010 Clay Buchholz, Jon Lester (BOS) 10.3 36-16 2.83
2009 Adam Wainwright, Chris Carpenter (STL) 11.9 36-12 2.45
2008 Jon Lester, Daisuke Matsuzaka (BOS) 10.7 34-9 3.07
2007 C.C. Sabathia, Fausto Carmona (CLE) 13.4 38-15 3.14
2006 Bronson Arroyo, Aaron Harang (CIN) 10.2 30-22 3.52
2005 Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte (HOU) 13.0 30-17 2.35
2004 Johan Santana, Brad Radke (MIN) 12.9 31-14 2.97
2003 Mark Prior, Kerry Wood (CHC) 11.5 32-17 2.81
2002 Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling (ARI) 15.7 47-12 2.77
2001 Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling (ARI) 15.7 43-12 2.74
2000 Kevin Brown, Chan Ho Park (LAD) 11.3 31-16 2.92
1999 Jamie Moyer, Freddie Garcia (SEA) 10.7 31-16 3.96
1998 Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine (ATL) 11.9 38-15 2.34
1997 Andy Pettitte, David Cone (NYY) 14.3 30-13 2.85
1996 Pat Hentgen, Juan Guzman (TOR) 14.9 31-18 3.09
1995 Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine (ATL) 13.5 35-9 2.34
1994 David Cone, Kevin Appier (KCR)* 10.5 23-11 3.36
1993 Kevin Appier, David Coner (KCR) 15.0 29-22 2.96
1992 Roger Clemens, Frank Viola (BOS) 14.0 31-23 2.92

I think this does give a good idea of just how dominant Randy and Curt were. They posted a combined WAR of 15.7 in consecutive seasons, while no-one else has passed fifteen in the past twenty years. The only pair to come top in back-to-back years were the Royals duo of Cone and Appier. The 1994 season, marked with a *, was shortened, Kansas City playing only 115 games, so if we scale up the WAR for a full campaign, you would get to 14.8 WAR, giving them 29.8 in total from 1993-94. That's still 1.6 short of what Johnson and Schilling did for the D-backs when they were together in the desert.

Part of that is simply their sheer stamina. In 2002, both pitched over 250 innings. It's the only time a National League team has had two hurlers reach that mark since 1988. Indeed it may never happen again, since over the nine seasons since, a mere four players in total have reached the mark: Halladay (twice), Sabathia, Justin Verlander and Livan Hernandez. The same goes for the win-loss record - CS and RJ went 90-24 over two seasons, which we may never see in future. No team has had two 20-game winners on the staff for even a single year since, and the last to do it in consecutive years like Arizona did, were the 1975-76 Baltimore Orioles.

Okay. So there are few who can match them in recent history. What about deeper in baseball's past?

All-time

The further back you go, the more unfair the comparisons inherently become to Johnson and Schilling, because it was a simple fact that pitchers worked harder then. The only pitcher since 1982 to make 40 starts over a season was knuckler Charlie Hough, in 1987, but as recently as 1973, a dozen pitchers did so. Rotation guys were also expected to work deeper into games, which both result in more innings being racked up. More starts + more innings per start = more WAR.

But if we draw the line at 6.8 WAR - the number for Schilling in 2002 - we still find fewer than twenty pitching duos since the 19th century, the last before our pair being Nolan Ryan (8.3) and Frank Tanana (7.7) of the 1977 Angels. [Ryan worked 299 innings that year, reinforcing the point from the previous paragraph] No-one bar our two did it in consecutive years - the closest are the Tigers' Hal Newhouser and Dizzy Trout, who make the list in 1944 and 1946. And if we move the bar to Schilling's 2001 figure, of 7.3 WAR, you are down to just nine. Here are the details for those pairings, with an extra column, showing the combined number of innings worked.

Year
#1, #2 (team)
WAR W-L ERA IP
2001 Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling (ARI)
15.7 43-12 2.74 506.1
1977 Nolan Ryan, Frank Tanana (CAA)
16.0
34-25
2.67
540.1
1969
Bill Hands, Fergie Jenkins (CHC)
16.4
41-29
2.88
611.1
1969
Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry (SFG)
16.3
40-25
2.30
625.0
1965
Jim Bunning, Chris Short (PHI)
15.9
37-20
2.71
588.1
1964
Don Drysdale, Sandy Koufax (LAD)
16.0
37-21
2.00
544.1
1956
Herb Score, Early Wynn (CLE)
15.8
40-18
2.63
527.0
1920
Jim Bagby, Stan Coveleski (CLE)
15.1
55-26
2.69
654.2
1903
Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity (NYG)
19.4
61-33
2.35
800.1

Yep. You read that last cell correctly: over 800 innings worked by Mathewson and McGinnity in a year. Between them, they started 90 games and were only ever relieved in nine of them. Like I said: truly a different era. But otherwise, Schilling/Johnson in 2001 were right there or thereabout with the other entries, despite having pitched considerably less. Their rate works out at about one WAR every 32 innings, so if you allow for that, than their numbers work out at the best on the list, over a standard, say, 600 innings.

Of course, it's impossible to say definitively who were the best pitching due of all time - you could make a case for just about anyone on the list above. But it certainly provides evidence that Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson should be ranked among the very best, and we may never see anything quite like them again.

Comment 41 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Greatest Duo Ever

Why did we trade Schilling?

Twitter
Mr. Hall, you WILL beat it!

by dbacks25 on Nov 29, 2011 2:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Cuz

Casey Fossum was a sure thing

Founder of the 'Foundation for the Advancement of Clefoing' a 501C3
"I'm like if it fits in the oven, play ball." - soco
Promised Colin Cowgill fifteen sandwiches on 7/6/2011

by Clefo on Nov 29, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

+1,000,000

I think I yelled at the television when the trade was announced.

Is it mid-February yet?

by NASCARbernet on Nov 29, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Because

we could

Have you been good this year? I hope so, because Gibby. Is. Watching.

by imstillhungry95 on Nov 29, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I was so annoyed with that

That I spent 2004 as a Red Sox fan. Between the complete abortion Arizona put on the field and Boston finally winning it all, I think it was the right decision.

by The so-called Beautiful on Nov 29, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

That was our introduction

to ’Organic Baseball…"

Is it mid-February yet?

by NASCARbernet on Nov 29, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I heard that his wife wanted to move back east

or maybe anywhere away from sunshine after her battle with skin cancer.

Riding the Gibbytrain since 2011!

by TylerO on Nov 29, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Because Jerry couldn't print any more money and needed a "true cleanup hitter"

He wanted Sexson. He couldn’t afford Sexson for one year without dumping Schilling…..

Surprised nobody remembers what happened there.

The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.

by shoewizard on Nov 29, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Best of their era.

Tough to come out and say of all time cause of how the game changes over time.

by Pyromnc on Nov 29, 2011 3:09 PM EST reply actions  

That's the thing with baseball

there will never be one player you can point to and say he was the best player ever. There’s just to many variables in the eras alone

Have you been good this year? I hope so, because Gibby. Is. Watching.

by imstillhungry95 on Nov 29, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

The glory days...where have they gone?

Johnson and Shilling each racked up over 300 strikeouts in 2002. Had that ever happened before, a pair of 300 K starting pitchers in the same rotation?

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 29, 2011 3:50 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

No

The closest were the Angels in 1976

Nolan Ryan 327
Frank Tanana 261

300 strikeouts reflects a pretty rare combination of power and durability. I think it’s only been done 33 times since 1900. Indeed, no individual has whiffed 300 since 2002, when Johnson and Schilling did it, for the same ballclub.

by Diamondhacks on Nov 29, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

THere haven't been many teams

that had 2 guys at the same time who struck out 300 at any point in their careers, let alone the same year. I’ve seen this trivia questions a few times but IIRC:
Pedro/Schilling
RJ/Schilling
Ryan/Richard
Ryan/Scott
BLue/Carlton (1984 Giants, you can always get even hardcore fans with that one)

I’m sure I’m missing a pair somewhere. . . .

by golfmanthee on Nov 29, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Good list

It was actually the ’86 Giants, but I think you got em all…two things jumped out at me looking back at the record. One was how many superlative power pitchers never got to 300. Seaver, Gibson, Clemens never did.

The other thing was Feller’s 348 K’s in 1946. Nothing remotely close to that between about 1912 (WJohnson) and 1963 (Koufax).

by Diamondhacks on Nov 29, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

It makes Johnson’s and Schilling’s numbers all the more impressive when you take into account that they were racking up 300+ strikeouts in fewer innings than some of the others. With fewer games started, as well.

Doesn’t Johnson hold the record for strikeouts per 9 innings among starting pitchers?

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 29, 2011 7:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

*with fewer games started in their 300 k seasons, I should clarify.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 29, 2011 7:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

He does

yet historically fewer starts are counterbalanced by today’s era of favorable strikeout conditions. Here’s the all time K/9 list, dominated by modern pitchers.

As Jim briefly mentioned, perhaps the most impressive thing about Randy & Curt was how many powerful and effective innings they pitched, relative to contemporaries. We think of them, rightly, as dominant starters who blew batters away, but they were also true workhorses in the context of their time.

by Diamondhacks on Nov 29, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

It would have been interesting

had they been kept together another season or two without injury.

Is it mid-February yet?

by NASCARbernet on Nov 29, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that would have been interesting

and it would give our grandkids deferred payments to complain about into the next century.

Riding the Gibbytrain since 2011!

by TylerO on Nov 29, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I've spent

a good chunk of my life complaining about deferred payments and look how I’ve turned out!

Have you been good this year? I hope so, because Gibby. Is. Watching.

by imstillhungry95 on Nov 29, 2011 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, if it works for Washington, DC

its good enough for us, right?

Is it mid-February yet?

by NASCARbernet on Nov 29, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Can you actually say "works" and "Washington, DC"

in the same sentence without laughing out loud?

Riding the Gibbytrain since 2011!

by TylerO on Nov 29, 2011 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

But I’m dead inside… And not Mark Russell

Founder of the 'Foundation for the Advancement of Clefoing' a 501C3
"I'm like if it fits in the oven, play ball." - soco
Promised Colin Cowgill fifteen sandwiches on 7/6/2011

by Clefo on Nov 29, 2011 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

If I'm not laughing

I’m crying.

Is it mid-February yet?

by NASCARbernet on Nov 30, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm beyond crying

At this point I’m just hoping the country lasts until after I die

Have you been good this year? I hope so, because Gibby. Is. Watching.

by imstillhungry95 on Nov 30, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

wow, that's some amazing stuff

Really liked the article, I thought they were the best combo since Koufax/Drysdale when we had the honor of watching them. I guess this shows there really weren’t many better, ever.

by rapdawg on Nov 29, 2011 9:41 PM EST reply actions  

Gaylord Perry doesn't count

he’s a cheater

-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.

by JustAJ on Nov 29, 2011 10:11 PM EST reply actions  

Nah

he threw a “cutter”- with real cuts in it!

Riding the Gibbytrain since 2011!

by TylerO on Nov 29, 2011 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Tell you guys what

it takes real skill to throw junk effectively. If it’s not thrown right, then the ball becomes a controversy about home run distances at the Snake Pit…

Gaylord Perry was an awesome pitcher.

Is it mid-February yet?

by NASCARbernet on Nov 30, 2011 12:25 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

About "Working Harder"

I’m not so sure that IP truly equates to “working harder”.

It was much harder to get through the Steroid inflated, everyone can hit one out lineups of 2001-2002 then it was to get through the banjo hitting, only 2-3 power threats in the lineup 60’s-70’s lineups.

The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.

by shoewizard on Nov 29, 2011 11:46 PM EST reply actions  

Funny how the year the mound height

was lowered to 10" is the only one with two pairs.

"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan

by xmet on Nov 30, 2011 6:24 AM EST reply actions  

You raise an interesting point

In addition to Jim’s ‘two pair’, Gibson/Carlton combined for 18.2 bWAR for STL in 1969…but the feeble Carlton (7.2) didnt quite qualify for this exercise.

I skimmed thru pitcher bWAR between 1959-1989 and it turns out there were more pitchers (14) sporting 6+ bWAR in 1969 than in any other year. There were seven such pitchers in 1968 and that’s a fairly typical year – about half a dozen or so. On the other extreme, there were zero 6WAR starters in 1961 and 1981, and the 80’s generally had fewer 6WAR performers than during the 60’s and 70’s.

by Diamondhacks on Nov 30, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

WOW....I was doing the same thing last night

And was also surprised to see how many 6 WAR pitchers there were in 1969

scary…..I’m thinking just like Diamondhacks. 2012 is truly upon us. ;)

The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.

by shoewizard on Nov 30, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

look on the bright side...

you could be thinking like Jim ;)

But seriously, do you think the ‘69 WAR distribution is random noise or perhaps expansion and/or mound related. In 1962, seven pitchers exceeded Don Cardwell’s MLB-leading bWAR (5.7) from the previous season, although year to year WAR distributions are much steadier during subsequent expansions (76-77,92-93,97-98)

I wonder if the abupt change in mound height created a transition or adaptive period, where most pitchers (and corresponding league norms) lost effectiveness, but the best or most adaptive pitchers lost less effectiveness, relative to league.

by Diamondhacks on Nov 30, 2011 11:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I think your last sentence is the only rational explanation.

Prior to 69 the mound height was not consistent, ranging up to 20" in some stadiums. The sudden consistency could have provided a temporary boost for top tier pitchers, since even though the change favored hitting, batters would also have to adjust.

"The kingdoms of Experience, In the precious wind they rot, While paupers change possessions, Each one wishing for what the other has got, And the princess and the prince, Discuss what's real and what is not, It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden." B. Dylan

by xmet on Dec 1, 2011 7:05 AM EST up reply actions  

That's right

lowering and standardizing pitching mounds changed the way pitcher’s pitch. Could you imagine how hard it would be to hit Collmenter throwing off a fifteen inch mound?

Is it mid-February yet?

by NASCARbernet on Dec 1, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's a simple answer

Innings Pitched

http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/e8afF

There are a number of obvious factors that lead to a lot of 300 IP seasons from the late 60’s through the mid 70’s

The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.

by shoewizard on Dec 1, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

So, basically

You are saying that they really were as good as I thought they were. Unsurprising. Loved having them both on the team. It was so exciting. Loved, Loved LOVED watching them mow down Yankees in the World Series. It was beautiful.

My father practically worships that Drysdale/Koufax duo. He was in college in LA when they were pitching. He said he used to skip classes to go watch them pitch. Which may be part of the reason he didn’t graduate. Hmmm…….

by SongBird on Dec 3, 2011 7:44 PM EST reply actions  

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