Justin Upton Fourth In NL MVP
by Jim McLennan on Nov 22, 2011 5:05 PM EST
in Diamondbacks News
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PrintArizona Diamondbacks outfielder Justin Upton finished fourth in the National League Most Valuable Player balloting, whose results were announced earlier today. It's the best performance by a Diamondbacks since Luis Gonzalez finished third after the 2001 season, so congratulations to him for that. Upton got one first-place vote, but 25 came in the third-fifth place range. He was one of four players to be mentioned on every ballot, the others being winner Ryan Braun, Matt Kemp and Prince Fielder. Ian Kennedy and Miguel Montero also got votes for Arizona.
Full balloting is after the jump.
| Player, Team | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | Points |
| Ryan Braun, Milwaukee Brewers | 20 | 12 | 388 | ||||||||
| Matt Kemp, Los Angeles Dodgers | 10 | 16 | 6 | 332 | |||||||
| Prince Fielder, Milwaukee Brewers | 1 | 4 | 11 | 9 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 229 | ||
| Justin Upton, Arizona Diamondbacks | 1 | 8 | 11 | 6 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 214 | ||
| Albert Pujols, St. Louis Cardinals | 1 | 6 | 11 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 166 | ||||
| Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds | 4 | 3 | 2 | 8 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 135 | ||
| Lance Berkman, St. Louis Cardinals | 1 | 2 | 6 | 3 | 7 | 2 | 4 | 3 | 118 | ||
| Troy Tulowitzki, Colorado Rockies | 3 | 4 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 69 | |||||
| Roy Halladay, Philadelphia Phillies | 1 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 2 | 3 | 52 | ||||
| Ryan Howard, Philadelphia Phillies | 1 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 39 | ||||
| Jose Reyes, New York Mets | 1 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 31 | |||||
| Clayton Kershaw, Los Angeles Dodgers | 1 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 29 | |||||
| Shane Victorino, Philadelphia Phillies | 3 | 3 | 3 | 18 | |||||||
| Ian Kennedy, Arizona Diamondbacks | 1 | 2 | 1 | 16 | |||||||
| Cliff Lee, Philadelphia Phillies | 2 | 1 | 1 | 12 | |||||||
| Hunter Pence, Astros/Phillies | 1 | 1 | 1 | 10 | |||||||
| Pablo Sandoval, San Francisco Giants | 1 | 1 | 7 | ||||||||
| John Axford, Milwaukee Brewers | 1 | 2 | 7 | ||||||||
| Michael Morse, Washington Nationals | 1 | 1 | 5 | ||||||||
| Carlos Beltran, N.Y. Mets/S.F. Giants | 1 | 3 | |||||||||
| Miguel Montero, Arizona D-backs | 1 | 2 | |||||||||
| Yadier Molina, St. Louis Cardinals | 2 | 2 | |||||||||
| Starlin Castro, Chicago Cubs | 1 | 1 | |||||||||
| Craig Kimbrel, Atlanta Braves | 1 | 1 | |||||||||
| Carlos Ruiz, Philadelphia Phillies | 1 | 1 | |||||||||
| Mike Stanton, Florida Marlins | 1 | 1 |
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Comments
Huzzuh!
Good for Upton. I’m looking forward to seeing him build on this year’s success next season.
Personally, I think Kemp deserved MVP. But Braun was obviously deserving as well.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 22, 2011 5:14 PM EST via mobile reply actions
MVPs in my view are people who lead their teams to pennants
so by that criteria, Kemp didn’t qualify.
Is it mid-February yet?
by NASCARbernet on Nov 22, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
but the problem is, did Braun lead the Brewers to their pennant? I’m not so sure
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 22, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
In my veiw, the award should go to the player who had the best season.
Which was Kemp this year, in my opinion. But I’m okay with Braun winning it.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 22, 2011 6:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's great for the NBA
because nobody cares about the outcome, just how well some star played. But in a more or less serious sport, baseball, it’s about winning, not individual performance. The best team player who helps his team win is the Most Valuable PLAYER.
Is it mid-February yet?
by NASCARbernet on Nov 22, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
so if winning is all that matters
shouldn’t the MVP only be able to be a player for the WS series team?
why are you arbitrarily limiting it to making the playoffs?
by blue bulldog on Nov 22, 2011 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
I would have no problem with that
except there already is an MVP for the World Series, and it’s usually awarded to the player who contributed the most to the winning team…
Is it mid-February yet?
by NASCARbernet on Nov 23, 2011 2:47 AM EST up reply actions
Why should Kemp be penalized because the Dodgers sucked this year?
He put up better numbers than Braun. He had arguably the best offensive season of any qualifying NL player. Should Roy Halladay have won the Cy Young over Clayton Kershaw, since the Phillies made the playoffs?
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 23, 2011 2:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Because Kemp was shooting in the dark
and if freakin’ Derpshaw was so good, too, then the Dodgers should have won. Theyd didn’t. As it stands, both are non-team players, and didn’t contribute to the betterment of their ballclub. Next topic.
Is it mid-February yet?
by NASCARbernet on Nov 23, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Two questions.
1. Kemp was “shooting in the dark”? What does that even mean?
2. How do you come to the conclusion that neither Kemp or Kershaw are team players? How is that relevant?
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 23, 2011 6:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Other than you hating the Dodgers
Do you really believe that??? Because it’s really absurd!! I always thought it took 25 players to win and the Dodgers only had 2. 2 players we would really love to have.
by Baseballdad on Nov 24, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
Unless I'm reading the acronym wrong,
The award is for the “Most Valuable Player” rather than the “Most Valuable Teammate.”
What's one more comeback, anyway?
by Zavada's Moustache on Nov 24, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly
With Kemp, the Dodgers finished third.
Without him, they would likely have…finished third, given they were 9.5 games in front of the fourth-placed Rockies.
That’s where a player with a lower ‘personal’ value can be more valuable to his team, if he is a key component on them making the post-season. Take Braun’s eight wins off the Brewers, and they don’t get into the playoffs. Therefore, he was more valuable to his team, than Kemp was to the Dodgers.
"We have to resist it. Do whatever you have to. Cross your fingers. Say a prayer. Think of a basket of kittens. But do not give in to the fear..."
by Jim McLennan on Nov 24, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
I think
This comes back to our definitions of “valuable.” Ryan Braun made a more meaningful contribution to his team than Kemp did to his, because, as you said, Braun’s team made the playoffs and would not have without him. But I also think that value can be measured in the abstract. That is, Kemp was a better and more valuable player than Braun regardless of the team around him, and he deserves the award.
Ultimately, I think players shouldn’t be penalized for shoddy performances of the players around them. Braun had MVP candidate Prince Fielder batting behind him for most of the season. Kemp had James Loney, who is decidedly not an MVP candidate.
What's one more comeback, anyway?
by Zavada's Moustache on Nov 24, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Better != more valuable
That, I think, is the key. Kemp was better than Braun, but there’s certainly a valid case to be made that he was not “more valuable” to his team.
If the award was “Best Player”, then Kemp should get it. But the title as it currently is, is “Most Valuable”, which does put a whole different spin on things.
"We have to resist it. Do whatever you have to. Cross your fingers. Say a prayer. Think of a basket of kittens. But do not give in to the fear..."
by Jim McLennan on Nov 24, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
At the same time,
Some will argue that Most Valuable Player != Player Whose Contributions Were The Most Valuable To His Team. If I wanted to start a team with a draft of all players in baseball available, I’d want the one who would provide the most value to my team – the Most Valuable Player. If we’re assuming strict replication of 2011 stats, that would be Kemp, and I don’t think many would argue with that.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 25, 2011 5:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
But
The Dodgers did win when Kershaw pitched- he had a 21-5 record, while the rest of their pitchers combined to go 61-74. So I’m afraid I don’t quite understand your point.
"Never ignore a coincidence. Unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."
And that
is always a good enough answer for me!
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 24, 2011 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
The Dodgers are a bum?
Does this make the Diamondbacks slumlords, since they controlled the Dodgers’ division last year? If so, I like this metaphor a lot.
What's one more comeback, anyway?
by Zavada's Moustache on Nov 24, 2011 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
Yes
Yes, I do believe it makes the Dbacks slumlords
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 24, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
The MVP is not the same as the Cy Young
The Cy Young is awarded to the best pitcher. Period. The MVP goes to the Most VALUABLE player. The award isn’t called Best Offensive Player. Without Kemp the Dodgers would have still finished 3rd. Without Braun, the Brewers might not have made the playoffs. I’d have ranked Upton ahead of Kemp. I would also have ranked Verlander above Bautista in the AL MVP.
So show me again....
Where it says that players not on playoff teams are not eligible. I keep missing that.
It’s like the bible and churches. There are 1000 different churches because everyone reads the bible and gets something different out of it. Same thing here. Different interpretations of the same set of rules.
Personally I think whoever thought them up was a genius. They are vague and ambigious enough to keep the debate going, and draw attention to the awards. If people stopped talking about the awards and just set up a stat criteria….i.e. most WAR or a points system or whatever, MVP awards would be boring.
Who cares about the rolaids relief award ? That was set up on a point system for statistical achievement. I actually had to go just look it up because I had no idea who won it this year. I didn’t even know if they were still giving it out or if it was a defunct award.
(BTW Valverde is the only D Back ever to win it, in 2007)
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
yes
in terms of PR, it is a pretty genius move on the part of the awards designers
you want people to debate about the award endlessly
by blue bulldog on Nov 30, 2011 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
Good for JUp
Not sure I agree with Braun being the MVP, but since I don’t have a better option in mind, I guess I can’t complain
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 22, 2011 5:50 PM EST reply actions
Had the Dodgers won the Pennant, or even made the playoffs as a wildcard
if would have said it was Kemp, but as it turned out, his efforts were futile.
Is it mid-February yet?
by NASCARbernet on Nov 22, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
exactly
I don’t think there was someone who you could really call the most valuble. I suppose that there has to be someone to win the award, so Braun was probably the best choice
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 22, 2011 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
Carlos Ruiz
Tee-hee.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 22, 2011 6:23 PM EST reply actions
I'll dissent from this
By the numbers, I think Matt Kemp was the best player in the NL this year. And I think he deserves the MVP. But since the whole “value” aspect tends to change what people see as “valueable,” the Braun vote makes sense, I just wish the MVP was more straightforward like the Cy Young is and they just gave it to the best position player.
Upton, like Kennedy, ended up about where he should have been, if not a tad on the upper end of where I figured he’d be. Congrats to Ian and Miggy for picking up a few votes as well.
Ryan Howard in tenth makes me lolololololz
zero for Fielder.
like “zero” chance he is a vegetarian.
Upton was def our teams MVP (non pitching) but the errororrorrrrorrrssses…….
If you'd have been a dog.....
They would of drowned you at birth.
good to see miggy get some love
still don’t understand how he didn’t win Silver Slugger
everytime he came up to bat with two outs i was like
“miggy sucks he is gonna strike out swinging on a slider that almost hits the dirt a foot in front of him…..but then he hits a double.
If you'd have been a dog.....
They would of drowned you at birth.
Good for Upton
I’m glad he made top 5 and hopefully he’ll take the trophy home some day.
Tomorrow is another day.
I voted for Kemp
As did most voters on this site at the time of this post. There is obviously a difference of opinion on what “most valuable” means, but IMO it just means “best player”.
Nope
see above.
Is it mid-February yet?
by NASCARbernet on Nov 23, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
I agree.
And it looks like a clear majority of voters on this site agree with us. High five!
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 23, 2011 6:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The NL? Almost certainly.
Baseball? Ehhhh, Jacoby Ellsbury would quibble with that…
What's one more comeback, anyway?
by Zavada's Moustache on Nov 24, 2011 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
You're entitled to your opinion,
But Kemp put up better numbers than Ellsbury this season. Hit for more power, a higher average, stole more bases, drew more walks, and led in a bunch of other categories that I don’t feel like typing out here. But look ’em up.
I promise you guys that I’m not a Kemp fanboy, and that I still hate the Dodgers…but Kemp was the best player in baseball this year.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 24, 2011 9:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ellsbury was a genuine Gold Glove caliber fielder
Kemp was sub-mediocre. That difference more than counters Kemp’s very slight offensive superiority.
"We have to resist it. Do whatever you have to. Cross your fingers. Say a prayer. Think of a basket of kittens. But do not give in to the fear..."
by Jim McLennan on Nov 24, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Very slight offensive superiority?
Slight meaning Kemp was better in BA,OBP,SLG,HR,SB, and RBIs in a incredibly inferior lineup then Boston’s. Plus he did it in Dodger Stadium.
And as someone who watches a lot of Dodger games I don’t know where you’re getting that Kemp is sub mediocre in center. He’s a gazelle out there.
Fangraphs has Kemp at -4.6, and he has been below zero every year in his career bar one. He’s accumulated a total of -29.5 in four seasons since becoming a full-time player.
The other fielding stats are less harsh, but have him around average, and he didn’t get a single top 10 vote in the Fielding Bible awards this year or last.
"We have to resist it. Do whatever you have to. Cross your fingers. Say a prayer. Think of a basket of kittens. But do not give in to the fear..."
by Jim McLennan on Nov 24, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yes,
But Ellsbury’s offensive numbers were similar (not as good, but similar) plus far superior defense through almost any metric you want to use. Plus, Ellsbury did all of this without a BABIP of .380.
What's one more comeback, anyway?
by Zavada's Moustache on Nov 24, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
As txzona pointed out, Ellsbury had the luxury of hitting in front of the Boston Red Sox loaded lineup. Kemp had little help all season. To me, that gives Kemp’s numbers a bit more weight than Ellsbury’s.
Ellsbury is obviously a better defender, but its not as though Kemp is a butcher in center field. His defense in center was around league average. To me, Kemp’s offensive superiority edges Ellsbury’s defensive superiority, since Kemp created and/or drove in more runs than Ellsbury saved with his glove.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 24, 2011 3:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Kemp created and/or drove in more runs than Ellsbury saved with his glove.
"We have to resist it. Do whatever you have to. Cross your fingers. Say a prayer. Think of a basket of kittens. But do not give in to the fear..."
by Jim McLennan on Nov 24, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Well, here's what bWar says.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2011-batting-leaders.shtml
I don’t put much stock in wins above replacement, though, since there’s several competing methods of calculating it that all lead to different conclusions.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 24, 2011 4:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
bWAR is horrible for offensive value
OPS+ is a largely useless stat, whereas wRC+ is phenomenally useful.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 25, 2011 5:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
How do you figure that?
Because I’ve heard just the opposite argued, and it honestly seems pretty subjective to me. What makes wRC+ more useful, in this case?
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 25, 2011 6:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
OPS is, by its very nature, a proxy
It’s easy to see the holes in the argument that on-base and slugging percentages – the latter of which inherently (and wrongly) assumes that all extra bases are equally valuable – accurately portray value in runs when magically added together. wOBA uses linear weights to see the value of each type of hit in runs produced – the ultimate obvious goal – based on the end result of a play, whether single, double, triple, HR, walk, HBP, SF, or RBOE. It’s just a bit more thorough and in-depth in how it views each type of play. Thus, park-and-league-adjusting wOBA provides an accurate depiction of offensive value. OPS+ doesn’t do that because of the inaccuracies of OPS.
UZR vs. TZ, on the other hand, is a whole other argument. Just collect as many different opinions as possible and get a vague idea of the real defensive value…
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 25, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Good to know.
Admittedly, I am not very sabermetricly inclined.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 26, 2011 8:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Enjoy.
These guys can pull the most ridiculous numbers almost as if out of thin air. Makes me wonder how any team that isn’t populated by math wizzes has ever won anything.
Is it mid-February yet?
by NASCARbernet on Nov 26, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
It certainly is impressive.
I’m not great at math, or much of a left brained type, so getting a grasp of sabermetrics seems a bit daunting to me. But it’s nice to have a few stat guys around here who can help break it down for us.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 26, 2011 5:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Because as much as understanding the past is simple
Predicting the future sucks. HARD.
Also, numbers can only make up so much of a difference in payroll. :-P
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 27, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Ryan Braun said:
“The reason I won is because they put a better team around me,” Braun said. “It’s a result of 25 guys around you and putting you in that situation.”
So at least he understands the nature of what happened here. There is nothing in the instructions given out to the voters that excludes an entire class of player, such as those that were not on playoff or pennant winning teams. It’s fine to have the opinion that this is what makes a player valuable. Lots of people think the same way. But it’s not a FACT. The fact is there is no such exclusion criteria given to the voters. Just like there is no rule excluding pitchers, though some voters refuse to vote for a pitcher. (See the Verlander vote).
Braun is a worthy MVP. He is a great player, (though his defense isn’t all that great), and he had a great year, and his team won. It’s not a tragedy that he won over Kemp. But Kemp was the better overall player this year. If the Dodgers had Fielder at first instead of Loney who knows ?
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
by shoewizard on Nov 24, 2011 1:13 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 24, 2011 9:13 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
So what did Gambo have to say ?
Did he go on another “I Hate Justin Upton” rant when he saw Justin came in 4th in the MVP ?
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
Gambo is AzBombers?
Founder of the 'Foundation for the Advancement of Clefoing' a 501C3
"I'm like if it fits in the oven, play ball." - soco
Promised Colin Cowgill fifteen sandwiches on 7/6/2011
I don't know
now that they moved him to lunchtime I don’t listen anymore.
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 24, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
I'm ok with Braun winning
But IMO Kemp deserved it. This is obviously arbitrary, but I’ve constructed my opinion on who the MVP should be. I feel like if you took the MVP, and placed him on any other roster in the league, he would be the most valuable player on that team. I think if Kemp played for Milwaukee this year, he would have been more valuable to them than Braun would have been, kind of abstract, but it’s a thought
by Bryn21 on Nov 25, 2011 1:02 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
interesting thought experiment
i agree that this is a pretty cool way of thinking about the MVP problem
by blue bulldog on Nov 25, 2011 5:30 AM EST up reply actions
It is
I haven’t thought about it that way. I’m going to have to think that through a little bit
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 25, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
Thought experiments are a valuable logical method
but counter-factuals and contrarian analysis is useful too.
For example, how do we not know that for all his wonderfulness, Kemp wouldn’t have made the Brewers worse? It is always presumed that superior individual performance equals better team performance, but really, does it?
Is it mid-February yet?
by NASCARbernet on Nov 26, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
the problem is
we will never know the counter-factual in this instance
and there’s no evidence/reason to suggest that Kemp would have made the Brewers worse anymore than he would have made them better
by blue bulldog on Nov 26, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
Recd for original thought
But if they had Kemp in Milwaukee they wouldn’t have had Nyjer Morgan………how could they have beat us without him ?
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.
Yeah
This gets rec’d.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 25, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
Definately
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 26, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
It would have been
much less annoying loss for us at least. I didn’t so much want to be the Brewers, but more Nyjer Morgan
Oh where oh where have my Dbacks gone? Oh where oh where could they be!
by imstillhungry95 on Nov 25, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
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