Managerial Smackdown: AJ Hinch vs. Kirk Gibson
It's now been just over a month since Kirk Gibson replaced AJ Hinch at the helm of the 2010 Diamondbacks, so it seems like an appropriate time to see whether the change has made any difference to the actual performance of the team. Has the bullpen stopped blowing as many chunks? Are the hitters waving at strike three less often? Is the USS Arizona now liming to port, or is it going round in circles while taking on more water? Are we fiery enough yet? After the jump, we'll take a look at the numbers, and see if there is objective evidence to point in either direction.
When looking at team stats and overall results, I only compare numbers up until July 28th, as on the 29th, Joe Saunders replaced Dan Haren. Almost universally regarded as a downgrade (though number so far have said otherwise), it wouldn't be fair to include games past that point, as Hinch and Gibson were playing with different hands. But up until then, they had basically the same players at their disposal, save the minor departure of Conor Jackson. We have over 850 PAs and almost 200 innings to work with for Captain Kirk, a respectable sample size with which to work. [Note: the decision was taken on that date, so no whining that I'm cherrypicking stats subsequently]
Win-Lost Record
On a straight up comparison, Hinch wins easily - his overall W% of .392 is clearly better than Gibson's .273 over the period in question. If we compare Hinch's last 22 games to Gibson's first 22, the gap expands, as Hinch's win percentage over that time was .409. But win percentage can be somewhat misleading - as we saw in 2007, the Diamondbacks creating an ocean of false expectations, posting the best record in the National League, when in hindsight, they really weren't.
We can also look at Pythagorean records, the projected ones based on the numbers of runs scored and allowed. Overall, under Hinch, the team scored 362 runs and conceded 446. That projects to a .397 winning percentage, very close to what was actually achieved. The same goes for his last 22 conters, where we scored 92 and conceded 111, a .407 W%. For Gibson, the numbers were 88-130, a Pythagorean percentage of .314. The slight improvement is caused in part by the team's decent record in blowouts (2-2 in games decided by more than six runs), but it still comes in below Hinch.
The relative strength of schedule faced by the two managers should also be examined. Based on their current record, Hinch came in for the season at .a 529 W% - he had a particularly brutal final stretch, however, and not one of his final 47 opponents currently has a losing record. In his final 22 games, the average W% went up to .570 - like playing the Red Sox every day - and bearing that in mind, the 9-13 record which resulted is actually credible. Gibson's number is .523, roughly in line with Hinch's overall strength of schedule for the year, so there's not any evidence he has a stronger schedule. However, 17 of his first 22 games were at home.
Of course, what we could be dealing with here is simply luck. If we assume the "true" talent of the team is their current win percentage, .374, then over a 22-game span, the chance of them winning six or less games (as Gibson did in his initial spell) is still about 23%. For the record to be statistically significant - say, at the 10% level - Gibson would have needed at least to post a winning record, or go 4-18 or worse.
Offense
| Gm | PA | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | GDP | SB | CS | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS | LOB | |
| Gibson | 22 | 852 | 757 | 88 | 193 | 36 | 8 | 18 | 85 | 78 | 210 | 12 | 15 | 9 | .255 | .326 | .395 | .721 | 169 |
| Hinch | 79 | 3,036 | 2689 |
362 |
675 |
157 |
13 |
94 |
353 |
295 |
724 |
61 |
45 | 13 |
.251 | .328 | .424 | .752 | 556 |
There is clear evidence the offense has got worse under Kirk Gibson. Runs per game are down from 4.6 under Hinch, to exactly four now. Batting average and on-base percentage are close to the same, but the team is slugging about thirty points less. They had one home-run every 32.3 at-bats in the days of Hinch, but only every 47.3 in the Gibson era. We can't blame park factors for this drop-off, since as noted, seventeen of 22 games were in the cosy confines of Chase, where the Diamondbacks had, in the first 101 games, hit 140 OPS points better (.812 to .672). That should have led to an improvement in production, not the 15% drop in runs scored actually seen.
Maybe this drop off in power was the result of Gibson getting the team to cut down on their swings, stop going for the fences and reduce strikeouts? If so, that ain't working either. The K-rate has actually increased from 23.8% to 24.6% - and the walk-rate decreased fractionally. As a result, the K:BB ratio is up to 2.69 from 2.45. This may help explain why the number of runners left on base has been 7.7 per game, a ten percent increase from the number under previous management.
Another area of concern is the running-game. Gibson pressed the accelerator pedal, with 1.23 attempts per game, a big increase compared to the 0.73 figure under Hinch. However, the success-rate imploded from 78% to 62%, well below the break-even point of around 70%. About the only area that has shown an improvement in the stats above, is that we're grounding into fewer double plays - one every 71 PAs, compared to one in fifty under Hinch.
Pitching
| G | IP | H | R | ER | BB | SO | HR | ERA | Pit | Str | IS | SB | CS | AB | 2B | 3B | ROE | GDP | |
| Gibson | 22 | 199 | 221 | 130 | 118 | 75 | 160 | 31 | 5.34 | 3387 | 2190 | 31% | 15 | 8 | 786 | 43 | 6 | 13 | 18 |
| Hinch | 79 | 697 |
767 |
446 |
413 |
299 | 542 |
105 |
5.33 | 11926 |
7415 |
46% | 75 | 17 |
2731 |
149 |
13 |
29 | 50 |
There's hardly any change in the most important pitching metric, ERA. However, some of the peripheral numbers do indicate a slight improvement. Walk rate is down to 3.39 per nine IP, from 3.85 under Hinch, and strikes overall have moved from 62% to 65% - K rate has also gone up, from seven to 7.24. However, HR rate fractionally increased, going from 1.36 to 1.40. But perhaps the most obvious change is a sharp decrease in the percentage of inherited runners who scored, going from 46% all the way down to 31%.
That would likely require further investigation, because not all inherited runners are equal - letting a man score from third with no outs, is not as bad as letting him score from first with two outs. However, it does suggest something of an improvement by the bullpen under Gibson, and that is supported by a July ERA for our relief corps of 5.40, compared to an overall number during April-June of 6.98. However, this was almost exactly canceled out, by an increase in starter ERA from 4.64 under Hinch, to 5.14 over the opening month of the Gibson era.
Individual Performances
We all know that there are bosses for whom you do your best, and others for whom you give less than 100%, and there's no reason baseball managers should be any different. So, let's look at the numbers put up by our pitchers and hitters under Hinch and Gibson. Note we are definitely splitting thin down to small sample-sizes at this point, there's no real way to compare strength of opposition, and that if Player X does better/worse under Manager Y, that does not "prove" X loves/hates Y. I'm just curious to compare player performances and see what we can see, so don't read anything into this, m'kay? Stats here are through Tuesday, the "better" ones are bolded.
| Hitter | Hinch OPS |
GIbson OPS |
Pitcher | Hinch ERA |
Gibson ERA |
| Upton | .827 | .855 | Lopez | 4.42 | 5.30 |
| Johnson | .846 | .917 | Haren | 4.56 | 4.74 |
| Young | .795 | .773 | Jackson | 4.63 | 7.24 |
| Reynolds | .798 | .899 | Kennedy | 3.77 | 5.97 |
| LaRoche | .799 | .784 | Qualls | 8.23 | 8.44 |
| Drew | .746 | .770 | Heilman | 3.41 | 3.29 |
| Parra | .705 | .551 | Gutierrez | 7.67 | 4.50 |
| Montero | 1.007 | .710 | Vasquez | 5.54 | 2.25 |
| Snyder | .798 | .626 | Boyer | 5.56 | 3.38 |
Conclusion
If Hinch was such a big part of the problem, as the nattering nabobs of AZ Central and their cronies perpetually proclaimed, then the team should presumably have got better when he was replaced - addition by subtraction. But there is little or no evidence that replacing Hinch with Gibson has had any positive impact on the performance of the team as a whole. Despite the predictable howls of delight from the expected circles at AJ's departure, it's hard to find anything in subsequent results to show that the undeniable issues with the 2010 Diamondbacks, were because of Hinch, or at least have been solved by his dismissal.
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Wow, Stats
By now, everyone who ever wastes their time reading my posts knows I don’t put a lot of importance in Stats. Stats are interesting, they tell you a lot of things in black and white and such but they don’t show the flesh and blood that is men playing this game.
Okay that said, I have noticed a "change," (I could carry that on to politics but I won’t.)
I have seen people running bases as an example, think back to the Hinch days, pretty few and far between. Stealing bases is aggressive baseball, it makes things happen, it makes people throw the ball in a manner where things can happen, it makes excitement!
This if nothing else shows these guys are capable to playing aggressive baseball.
The long ball is less the game than before, most have accepted that putting the ball in play, getting it out into the grass gets people on base, gets runners on and scores runs.
I have seen a different dugout, I see guys with smiles, doing pranks and signs of a team that wants to win or at least try.
They haven’t gotten there yet, who knows if some of these guys are capable of the “Change” but the spark is there.
I admire Gibson, he brings the managing of Sparky Anderson into the game, and if you are old enough to remember “Captain Hook” he won a couple of World Series with the Reds.
AJ Hinch is the guy I would want in upper management, maybe player development but he is not a field manager, he was out of his realm and never comfortable and too timid to play aggressive baseball.
Just remember, Aggressive baseball doesn’t have to be the long ball game, short ball winds games too.
So other than coaching over twenty years of high school and college, I don’t know anything about Stats.
What?
I have seen a different dugout, I see guys with smiles, doing pranks
Dear me, this isn’t the Kirk Gibson I signed up for – I signed up for the one who was going to lick this bunch of underachieving whippersnappers into shape. Smiles? Pranks? Sheesh. Actually, I recall seeing those in the dugout under Hinch too. But really, I could care two cents whether they are playing pranks or not – I want to see the team win, and on that basis, the change has had, if anything, a negative effect.
I have seen people running bases as an example, think back to the Hinch days, pretty few and far between.
And that was noted in the article. However, you’ll also note that we’ve seen people getting thrown out on the basepaths, at such a high rate that this aspect of the game is now damaging the team offensively. You need to construct your team based on their skill-set, obviously. A team full of Benji Molina’s should not be playing aggressive baseball. If your team is not good at stealing bases, then don’t do it – you’re trying to force square pegs into round holes.
Maybe Gibson will develop into a good manager down the line. But we replaced one guy who was pilloried mostly for having no managerial experience, even in the minors…with another guy who has no managerial experience, even in the minors.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
ahem
we replaced one guy who was pilloried mostly for having no managerial experience, even in the minors, who was a journeyman catcher from the front office who wasn’t respected by the players…with another guy who has no managerial experience, even in the minors who won two world series titles in his playing days, during both of which he hit a clutch home run, one of which when he could barely walk at the time, was known as a gutsy player and as a result and is well respected by the players.
Go Sedona Red
Not really
Doesn’t even have the stache anymore
It should also be noted that a “Journeyman Catcher” won the World Series last year as a manager.
Bad doormat! No stock options!
I'm so tired of hearing about Hinch's playing time, like it matters the slightest bit
Bobby Cox and Tony LaRussa don’t care about your complaints about hiring a journeyman player to coach.
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
It's almost as if..
… There is no previous baseball criteria to determine what makes a good manager.
WHO KNEW!?
Bad doormat! No stock options!
front office guy
more than his playing time was more the problem. at any rate, it’s over and done with and we don’t need to rehash A.J.‘s tenure ad nauseam. we’re getting back on track towards the future, which is a good thing.
Go Sedona Red
Then
Say front office guy. Don’t continue talking about how he’s a journeyman catcher.
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
by kishi on Aug 5, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
what do you mean they “both contributed to his not having credibility as a manager.” the combination of the two should give him lots of credibility. and you know what, if tehre is a credibility issue, that is the players’ problem, not hinch’s.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
I wasn't aware a world series ring
Was a requirement to being an effective manager.
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
by luckycc on Aug 5, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
it isn’t, but it sure doesn’t hurt when it comes to credibility, just ask any pro baseball player.
Go Sedona Red
by jonny-yuma on Aug 5, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The difference in the respect level
for Gibson vs what it was for AJ is palpable. It oozes out of every post game comment made in the locker room and is evident both on the bench and on the field. I’m not saying it is right, but it is what it is.
Even AJ conceded that he never got the player to line up behind him.
When you say
it is evident…on the field.
What exactly do you mean by this?
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
Watch the players' faces
when Gibson comes out of the dugout and there is a meeting on the mound. They are listening intently and hang on his every word.
It is so noticeably different. When Hinch would come out, they wouldn’t look him in the eye, were only half paying attention. It was obvious that, at least in some cases, the veterans felt they could conduct the meeting better than AJ. Body language tells a lot.
Actually Kirk Gibson
hit at least three clutch World Series Home Runs that I can think of.
But, I think you make an excellent point. Just before Spring Training started, there were several quotes in the paper from A.J. saying that he did not have a chance to connect with the players and earn their respect when he got the job last year. He said ST gave him the opportunity to do that, and he felt his bond with the players was much stronger going into the season.
Then, shortly before he was fired, he was quoted as saying, no, his message was not getting thru and for whatever reason he and the players were not on the same page.
I’m paraphrasing here, but that alone caused me to believe a change was necessary…and inevitable.
Seems to me
there were a lot of guys thrown out during Hinch’s tenure, too.
I like what Gibson is doing. He is saying, this is the way I understand how to play winning baseball. Either you get with the program and show me you can play this way or we will sit you down. If you really can’t deal with playing aggressive baseball, we will move you and get somebody in here who can.
It’s really very simple. If you can’t put pressure on the defense, have to play station to station, while you are striking out 10,000 times and making unproductive outs all over the place, you will lose a ton of games and be boring as hell while doing it.
I would rather see some guys get thrown out while trying to take an extra base than see them do an imitation of a statue while Reynolds is striking out for the 200th time.
Either you get with the program and show me you can play this way or we will sit you down. If you really can’t deal with playing aggressive baseball, we will move you and get somebody in here who can.
What says this? I can’t think of a time when Gibson sat a guy to make a point. Have I missed something?
Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
Right out of the chute
the first game I went to after Gibson became manager. The middle game of the home series against the Cubs.
Parra loafed on a ground ball that the SS double clutched on and he might’ve beaten out if he had run hard. Gibson came right up to him when he came back to the bench. He let Parra go back out and play the field, but his next turn at bat, Ryal pinch hit for him and finished up in left field.
It was Abreu who pinch hit for him, and Ryal took over.
And also, Parra was pinch hit for because he was going to face Sean Marshall, a lefty. Not because he was loafing.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ARI/ARI201007060.shtml
Leads/ties blown by the Diamondbacks bullpen in '10: 33
I would rather see some guys get thrown out while trying to take an extra base than see them do an imitation of a statue while Reynolds is striking out for the 200th time.
I would rather they not get thrown out, but that’s just me, apparently.
Mr. Science Boy
And again
Reynolds strikes out swinging way more often than he strikes out looking.
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
Granted,
K’ing swinging doesn’t preclude a CS, though.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 11, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow
All this story details for me is that you don’t understand why Hinch was fired and are deeply upset that it’s not based on statistics. It wasn’t because Gibson was a lock to win more games and instantly turn around the team. It was because Hinch was not a good manager. If you put the teams of Melvin and Hinch next to each other, they’re the same. Someone more intelligent than Josh Byrnes noticed this and took action. It’s not about numbers in a 22 game stretch. It’s about the development of players and playing the game correctly.
Some of these players may never recover from the years of being ignored by hands-off managers and a development system that clearly is not up to snuff compared to others in the major leagues. You’ll have to remember that Hinch was also in charge of player development for a good number of years. I choose to believe that the firing of Byrnes and Hinch was a culmination and a summary of their entire body of work. Not just this season or a 22 game stretch of random games in a lost season. I challenge you to point out a player development system in worse shape than the Diamondbacks. Even the players we “graduate” are deeply flawed and usually remain in that state until they either burn out or move on to another team. Should Justin Upton, Stephen Drew, Chris Young, and Mark Reynolds be only above-average players? They seemed to have more potential than that.
In the end, the manager can’t pitch for the pitching staff and can’t hit for the players. No change was going to make this team better overnight. However, something has to be wrong with the person that’s not noticing the difference in the way Gibson’s team is playing the game, even after such a short time of influence. I know it’s like taking away your security blanket, but it’s not always numbers.
Josh Byrnes Sucks
by nihil67 on Aug 5, 2010 10:19 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You completely
missed the point of that piece. It was to compare the two managerial regimes, and suggest that replacing Hinch with Gibson did not suddenly make this awful team play better, because they are an awful team.
No crying in the Snakepit. That's what your apartment is for.
I don't think so
I understand the point. I’ve read Jim’s stuff for a long time. He didn’t want Hinch fired and because he has numbers to prove that everyone else is wrong, he’s going to blow the horn as loud as he can for as long as he can.
In the end, I think you and I are in agreement. Nothing is fixing this team for a while.
Josh Byrnes Sucks
player development
Upton’s developing as expected, and Chris Young this year is what most people expected of him. Stephen Drew definitely is underperforming expectations for his career, but NOBODY thought Mark Reynolds would be a major league regular, let alone a guy that would be a 40 home run player. My problem is with Mel Stottlemyre. Is it just me, or does it seem like our pitchers, especially the bullpen, has underperformed under Mel’s tenure?
Yeah
See, if I was going to start firing guys, Mel would be the first out the door.
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
by kishi on Aug 5, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Same here.
I should have a mfin theme song.
by emilylovesthedbacks on Aug 5, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
He must know where all the bodies are.
My imagination is greater than your nay-say.
by Jargamus Prime on Aug 5, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If I
were him I’d be fabricating a new one. It’s not like his resume is particularly spectacular.
No crying in the Snakepit. That's what your apartment is for.
All this story details for me is that you don’t understand why Hinch was fired and are deeply upset that it’s not based on statistics.
I’m pretty sure you have no special insights in why Hinch was fired either. I think the fates of Hinch and Byrnes were basically intertwined: when it was decided one had to go, the other was pretty much a dead duck. I was sorry they didn’t give Hinch more time, but believe me, in contrast to the frothing hatred of the man expressed in other quarters. my opinion of him was stritcly the lukewarm category.
It was because Hinch was not a good manager.On what, exactly, do you base this? As outsiders – and, again, I’m assuming you are not hanging around the locker-room, what do we have to go on except the statistics which you deride. Apparently, you reject them simply because they run counter to your opinion. But the fact is, this team is winning fewer games, against weaker opposition, under Hinch than Gibson. That’s not really my idea of a good manager.
Should Justin Upton, Stephen Drew, Chris Young, and Mark Reynolds be only above-average players? They seemed to have more potential than that.
Reynolds was a 16th-round draft pick. Upton had one of the best seasons in recent history by a player his age last year. Chris Young is an All-Star. But stop me if I’m wrong, but you’re saying Hinch’s firing as manager is justified because he didn’t perform adequately when in charge of the farm system? Seems the organization thought otherwise, shall we say.
However, something has to be wrong with the person that’s not noticing the difference in the way Gibson’s team is playing the game, even after such a short time of influence. I know it’s like taking away your security blanket, but it’s not always numbers.
Yes, I am seeing the difference – the same players are scoring significantly fewer runs, getting thrown out on the basepaths at a horrific rate. And, actually, I’ll think you’ll find it is always numbers – in particular, scoring more runs than the opposition. We weren’t exactly setting the world on fire at that under Hinch, but the problem has, if anything, become worse under Gibson. I know that doesn’t jibe with your worldview, but burying your head in the sand and shoutng “It’s not always numbers,” doesn’t change the facts.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
so
what to do, IYO? are we rebuilding and letting Gibby learn on the job or is he on the A.J. plan, i.e. he gets the rest of this year and next to prove himself or else he’s gone?
Go Sedona Red
If I ran the franchise
I’d not be expecting much in 2011 either, but I would want to see some improvement. Given we are currently on pace for 100 losses, if we can get back to 75-80 wins next season, I’d be happy, as that does put us within plausible striking range of the post season. As noted before, no team has gone from 100 losses to the playoffs in the next year, so setting that as an ultimatum is unrealistic.
As for Gibson, I think what this has shown is indeed that managers don’t make that much difference. Since April 2009, this team has had three managers with radically different styles and approaches – and underperformed under each.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
"As noted before, no team has gone from 100 losses to the playoffs in the next year"
No, but a team went from 97 losses to 100 wins in the next year, and that team was the 1998-99 Arizona Diamondbacks. Still, imho, the most amazing turnaround in modern baseball history.
At a price...
The 1999 payroll was 243% that of 1998. The equivalent figure for next year would be almost $148 million – if Kendrick ponied that up, yeah, I think we might have a chance. :-)
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
Back Story
But, Jim, the 1998 payroll was $28M. Every other team in the NL West had a payroll that was substantially more than that.
So, while it is true they had a dramatic increase in payroll in 1999, the truth is that their 1998 payroll was substantially below the norm. That is because of the need to fill the roster from the expansion draft.
They signed a couple of significant free agents, notably Randy Johnson and Steve Finley, and got rid of some of the players who were cast offs from other teams to begin with.
But, they did not go crazy, as so many revisionists now like to state. They basically transitioned from an expansion ballclub to a real ballclub in that offseason. And they did so wisely, as the results proved.
It was the lowest in the division
But no-one in the division that year (1998) had a payroll of even $50m. In 1999, they were barely half a million from having the highest salary in the division – the Dodgers, Mets and Braves were the only NL teams to outspend the D-backs.
So they weren’t just a “real” ballclub – their payroll was actually in the top quarter of the league in 1999. This season, the Diamondbacks are in the bottom quarter, and all the indications are, the salary bill will be reduced next year.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
The Dodgers were at $47M in 1998
The Rockies were at $46M and the Padres were at $45M.
That is almost DOUBLE what the D-Backs were. Which gives you some idea how below the norm they were in 1998. Just to get up to the rest of the division they would have had to double their payroll.
BTW, the Padres went from next to last in 2009 to leading the division in August of 2010 while actually reducing payroll. Where they sit now, at $38M is about half of the other teams in the division, so don’t try to convince me that the only way to quickly turn things around is to break the bank.
Must be the new math.
That is almost DOUBLE what the D-Backs were.
I make $45m barely 50% more than the Diamondbacks. The highest 1998 salary in the division was 66% more than Arizona’s. The second-highest, 64% more. This year, the same numbers are 63% and 57%. Really, our financial situation this year, in comparison to the division’s biggest spenders, is not radically different. It was only after Colangelo started spending money (and money he didn’t have at that), success came to the desert.
The Padres had 75 wins last season – they are currently on pace to get about twenty more. The Diamondbacks are on pace for a lot less, only 60 wins – so if we mount a Padres-esque turnaround next season…we’d still have a losing record. As noted above, I would be happy with 80 wins in 2011, as a building-block. But anyone expecting this team to contend is, I think, almost certain to be disappointed.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you want to talk baseball or pick nits?
When you are at $28M give or take (you understand that these numbers are all approximate because of player movement, etc) and three of the four other teams in your division are between $45 and $50M, then it is fair to say you are ABOUT half of the norm. No new math, just talking in round figures since they are imprecise anyway.
On August 5th of last year, the Padres were 44-65. Only 3 games in the loss column better than the D’Backs are right now. The Padres, in actual fact, started their turnaround in September of last year, without adding any expensive players and without changing managers. They went 16-9 in September.
So, it is more than fair to say, that in 1 year, the Padres have come from a place not that much different from where we are now to a place where they have the best record in the NL going into the last 7 weeks of the season. All while reducing their payroll.
Rather than impressing us with your ability to calculate percentages, please tell us where I have made a statement that is not generally true.
He is
talking baseball. Don’t get mad cos you’re using information incorrectly.
No crying in the Snakepit. That's what your apartment is for.
I'm not mad
nor am I using information incorrectly.
It’s not my fault if you have a comprehension issue.
45 not = double 29
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 6, 2010 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
please tell us where I have made a statement that is not generally true.
How about this one?
To get up to the rest of the division they would have had to double their payroll.Doubling the Diamondbacks 1998 payroll would not have “got them up to the rest of the division”, it would actually have given them a salary more than 20% higher than any other team in the NL West. Fact.
You started off with the claim that the 1998-99 Diamondbacks were “the most amazing turnaround in modern baseball history.” My point was that it was fueled by one of the biggest payroll increases in modern baseball history.
If you now want to start discussing the 2009-10 Padres instead, then that’s an entirely separate discussion.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 6, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
You do realize
that this list of baseball payrolls is a very rough estimate, right? Probably +/- 20% at best. Here’s a source
http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm#98_payroll
that lists the 1998 D’Backs at $31.6 and the 1998 Dodgers at $62.8. Is that close enough to double for you? Or are you know going to tell me that it is only 1.98 times as much?
Look, when you get done with all the number crunching, the basic thrust of this exchange is this: You started by saying no team had lost 100 games (which the D’Backs haven’t done yet, and well may not do) and then went to the playoffs the next year. I countered by saying the D’Backs went from 97 losses to 100 wins, which is essentially the same thing. You responded by saying yeah, but they broke the bank to do so, implying that it can’t be done otherwise.
I countered by saying they didn’t break the bank as much as it may appear and not only that, the Padres accomplished a last place to first scenario from August 09 to Aug ’10 without increasing payroll. Other teams have done the same.
So, what do you want to say to further this discussion? It’s your turn.
Let's see
You gonna believe USA Today or “stevetheump.com”? C’mon. Really. The latter doesn’t even break down the figure, it might as well be plucked directly from "stevetheump"s ass. But, moving on.
And you don’t consider a 243% increase in payroll for the 1999 Diamondbacks to be relevant to their improvement?
And as for the Padres, they are 19 games up on where they were after 107 games last season. A 19-game improvement will not get the Diamondbacks to the playoffs next season.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
For a guy that likes numbers
you missed something pretty important. The “stevetheump” payroll numbers are the opening day payrolls. The USA Today is not specific about how they arrive at theirs.
The Padres had a .404 winning percentage at this time last year. This year they are winning at a .589 clip. So, they have improved their winning pct 185 points.
The D’Backs are winning at a .376 clip. If they also increased their winning pct 185 points, that would out them at a .561 clip next year, which would equate to 91 wins, and most assuredly would net them a spot in the playoffs.
Further proof that this is doable – the Cubs lost 96 games in 2006 and then won the NL Central in 2007.
by azjazzman on Aug 6, 2010 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wrong
The Padres after 107 games were 44-63, a .411 W%, not 404. So, their improvement is 178 points. That improvement added to the D’backs current win percentage (.376) is .554.
Last year, the lowest W% of any NL playoff team was the Cardinals .562. Indeed, .554 is only currently good enough for third place in any of the NL divisions. A far cry from “most assuredly would net them a spot in the playoffs.”
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
I really don't get why you keep moving stuff around
I never said anything about 107 games. I said on August 5th. Can you follow that? Today is August 5th, and one year ago today, the Padres winning pct was .404.
91 wins get you in the playoffs 9 years out of ten. Even if you use .554 which equates to 90 wins, that gets you in the playoffs 7 times out of ten. Last year was by no means a typical year in terms of number of wins that will garner a playoff spot.
"91 wins get you in the playoffs 9 years out of ten."
Your arguments continue to be seriously weakened by easily-disproven exaggeration. Since the current format and number of teams was established in 1998, here are all the NL playoff lowest win totals: 90, 97, 94, 88, 95, 88, 92, 82, 83, 85, 84, 91. Where are you getting “9 years out of 10” from?
The smaller the sample size, the easier it is to have a big variation. It is a lot easier to have an improvement of 178 points over the 108 game season you used than over 162 games.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
Actually, it's even worse than that
Because for Arizona, the number of wins by the NL Central and NL East champions is irrelevant. All that matters is the NL West and wild-card win totals. Since the current format in 1998, here is the lowest of those two numbers: 90, 97, 95, 92, 95, 91, 92, 82, 88, 90, 84, 92.
So, far from “nine out of ten times,” 91 wins would have got Arizona into the post-season less than half of the time (5/12, with one playoff game). 90 wins would get them in one-quarter of the time (3/12, with two play-off games).
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 6, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Jim --
this IS nit-picking.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 11, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
As for the 2007 Cubs
They only improved their W% by 118 points. That wouldn’t even bring the 2010 Diamondbacks back to a .500 record.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
The problem with all your posts
is that your shapshot of the D’Backs assumes they won’t play any better the rest of the year. I don’t think that will finish with a .376 winning pct and I’ll tell you why.
In late May and all thru June and into July the D’Backs played an almost unbelievably tough schedule. I think they played something like 15 out of 18 series against teams with a winning record.
Their schedule the rest of the year is still tough, but not as bad as that. Plus, I think the opportunity they will have to play spoiler against the other teams in the NL West will give them some renewed focus.
I don’t project them as a 100 loss team. More like mid 90’s.
There's
no reason to believe they won’t be a 100 loss team.
No crying in the Snakepit. That's what your apartment is for.
I just listed
a couple of solid reasons why I don’t think they will lose 100 games. I could list others, but why bother?
Time will tell.
Probably should just give up...
The regulars will defend the regulars, thats how it works. I for one, agree with a lot of what you are saying, but kept quiet because it will go no where. :)
Yeah, you make a good point
it’s the herd mentality. It’s a big reason why I don’t post here more than I do, the other one being that the majority of posts are “insider” banter and is nothing but white noise to someone who is not one of the insiders.
I still enjoy it though...
The people here know their baseball, and I always enjoy reading their pieces. Just a baseball (dbacks) fan lovin to read some dbacks pieces.
Gotcha
it just gets tiring when you have to go over and over minutia just because someone is more invested in being right all the time than just simply saying, “That is a good point, I didn’t think of that.” There are better ways to kill a couple of hours.
You also could say
“That is a good point, I didn’t think of that.” from time to time. It’s a back and forth discussion. Go with it. Stick up for your points. Consider other points. Have fun.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by 4 Corners Fan on Aug 6, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Then post a lot
and become one of the “insiders”. We’re very friendly.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by 4 Corners Fan on Aug 6, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Haven't really found that to be the case.
YMMV, but “fellating your God like genius” remarks don’t strike me as particularly inviting, or friendly.
Yeah, it was harsh
Sorry about that.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
No.
Post. Make your point. Maybe somebody will take issue, but there are a lot of people who don’t post regularly and will find your posts interesting, as well as the back and forth.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by 4 Corners Fan on Aug 6, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
For reasons of legibility
I think we should restart at the bottom of the page, as any more replies here are going to be almost impossible to follow.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 6, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
There's no reason to think this isn't a 100-loss team
This team plays .400 ball against sides with losing records. At that rate, even if every one of their remaining games was against a losing team, they are still on pace to go 62-100. And of the 17 remaining series, 13 are against teams above .500 – against whom, Arizona’s win % is well below .400.
Additionally, they have traded away Dan Haren, and there’s good reason to think they’ll rest Kennedy and Enright down the stretch. That’s going to weaken the team, down the stretch, not strengthen it.
Really, if they couldn’t “focus” on their own pennant-race, what makes you think they’ll be able to do so on anyone else’s?
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
This is the typical response you get
from somebody who has never played sports.
“Really, if they couldn’t "focus" on their own pennant-race, what makes you think they’ll be able to do so on anyone else’s?”
A major dynamic that occurs with a lot of 100 loss teams in baseball is that they fall out of the race early on and have literally nothing to play for.
A lot of times, even bad teams perk up in September when they are playing pennant contenders. It is generally thought that this results from a combination of the bad team having something to play for and the good team feeling the pressure of a pennant race.
A good example of this was in 2008 when the Rockies came from last place to sneak into a wild card slot at the end of the season. The did that by beating the first place Dodgers a whole bunch of times in September.
2007*
And not to sure about how much baseball there is in the UK, or why this even matters.
Nice strikeout!
In 2008
The Rockies weren’t in last place after June. They started September six games back. Not really comparable to the 2010 D-backs.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
I think what we saw tonight
and Joe Saunders’ last couple of outings are a couple of reasons to think the D’Backs won’t lose 100 games this year.
If you think Joe Saunders
will continuously put up these performances, you’re going to be disappointed.
Leads/ties blown by the Diamondbacks bullpen in '10: 33
PS
Guess you missed this page, which explains the USA Today methodology in detail. What does “stevetheump” have to say?
On re-reading, you may mean the Padres record on the same date, not after the same number of games. That would explain the .404 W%. However, aside from the dubious cherrypicking of start and end points – really, who cares about any team’s record on August 5? – the principal remains. A .561 clip would not have got Arizona a playoff spot last year, and it would not get them one at the current point either.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
I established the start point
it was you that changed it randomly. I think looking at the winning percentage in exactly one year’s time makes perfect sense. It certainly makes more sense than saying “the Padres are 19 games better than their record last year”, which assumes that after playing .589 ball to this point, they will only play .500 ball from here on out.
And you can’t use last year as a bench mark for making the playoffs and then disregard the 2007 Cubs because they got into the playoffs with a record barely over .500. Both those events are outside the norm.
But, the reality is that most years 90 wins gets you in. 91 wins gets you in 90+% of the time.
And “stevetheump” uses the opening day payroll as the benchmark. That makes sense to me, because that reflects the team’s makeup for any given year. The problem with the USA Today approach is that it is distorted by the team’s mid season moves, whether they become buyers or sellers.
Obviously, the Dodgers shed a lot of payroll during 1998 as they fell behind in the race. But their opening day payroll is a better data point when comparing them to the D’Backs, imo.
dudes
i think you guys are making way too big of a deal about this argument
1) just because something has never happened before is not sufficient proof it won’t happen next year
2) only thing that causally determines whether we will compete next year is whether we have a roster that can compete and certain lucky things happen or unlucky things don’t happen
3) we are, very likely, not going to have a roster that can make the playoffs next year. unless a) at least one of joe saunders, daniel hudson, ian kennedy, and barry enright pitches like a cy young AND b) upton fulfills his potential as a 6+ WAR position player while reynolds, miggy, drew, kelly improve or at least do not regress AND c) we assemble a league average bullpen
unfortunately those three things probably aren’t going to happen
Well, I was going to make the point
before I got sidetracked with math 101, that while the Padres certainly have proven that a big turnaround is possible without spending a lot of money, I believe there are enough differences between the 2010 D’Backs and the 2009 Padres to make a similar turnaround extremely unlikely.
A few of the difference…pitching, especially bullpen, was a Padre strength, even in 2009. Secondly, the event that turned the Padres around more than anything was trading Peavy. For a lot of reasons, but partly because they got a young pitcher back that is now a top of the rotation type guy. It is too late for us to do that with Webb.
There are a lot of other things I could mention, but you get the idea.
Who did the Padres get in the Peavy trade
that was a top of the rotation type guy?
Leads/ties blown by the Diamondbacks bullpen in '10: 33
I believe he’s referring to Clayton Richard. My understanding is that Richard is projected more as a #3. I think the Padres got more along the lines back what we got back for Haren. But I’m no whiz on prospects.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
Yeeeeah, if that's the case...
he’s wrong. Richard is definitely not a TOR starter.
Leads/ties blown by the Diamondbacks bullpen in '10: 33
1) just because something has never happened before is not sufficient proof it won’t happen next year
If you rely on any team to do something historically unprecedented, you are almost certain to be disappointed.
Agree with you on 2+3 – as noted previously, teams that turn it around do so more because they get new players in, than because existing ones play better. If you look at the 2010 Padres, they basically rebuilt their entire rotation – the only holdover from 2009 is Kevin Correia, not exactly the kind of ace you build your staff around. Looks like the same kind of makeover might happen in AZ for 2011.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
Wait! Wait!
You forgot that Webb will be back!
::::shows self out::::
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by 4 Corners Fan on Aug 6, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Awww
:-(
I should have a mfin theme song.
by emilylovesthedbacks on Aug 6, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude. Read the page
USA TODAY’s baseball salaries database contains year-by-year listings of salaries for Major League Baseball players on opening day rosters and disabled lists
No mid-season moves are included.
As noted, the earlier you take the “one year” start point, the less reliable the data, Friday April 16, last year, Arizona were 3-6. “Exactly one year later”, they were 5-5. My god, that’s a 167 point improvement!!!! However, it is completely meaningless.
I trust you’ll now abandon the “91 wins gets you in 90+% of the time” fallacy too.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 6, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, unfortunately
we’re are in the middle of the season, so we don’t have numbers for the whole year yet. Unless you want to make the lame assumption that a team playing nearly .600 ball year to date will go .500 the rest of the season, as you wanted to do.
Dude, before you stake your argument on the USA Today salary list, you’d better take a closer look at it. It is more full of holes that a piece of swiss cheese. Look at the list for the 1998 Diamondbacks. Where is Travis Lee? I believe he was the starting 1st baseman and was one of the highest paid players on the team.
And the fact of the matter is, 91 wins will get you into the playoffs a hell of a lot more times than it won’t, so my point is still valid.
Nope
Lee got a huge signing bonus, but only got paid league minimum in 1998 as a rookie.
And the fact of the matter is, 91 wins will get you into the playoffs a hell of a lot more times than it won’t,
No, it won’t. If the Arizona Diamondbacks had won 91 games every year of their existence, they have only made the playoffs five times, with a playoff game in another season.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
Well, there you have it
Most team salary summaries I have seen divide the signing bonus by the number of year’s of the contract and add that to each year’s total. Why wouldn’t USA Today do that? It’s part of the budget. That alone would explain why the USA Today numbers are lower than anyone else’s.
And why wouldn’t you include players who are at league minimum? If you had a roster of 25 league minimum players, you would figure them at $0, even though your payroll is $10M? Makes no sense.
The Wild Card came into being in 1995. That’s 15 years worth of data. 91 wins would have gotten you to the postseason in the NL 9 of those 15 years, including 4 of the last 5. 92 wins would have done it every year in the last 5.
What was your point again?
That's assuming
that none of the wins it took to raise their record to 91 games came at the expense of any erstwhile playoff teams.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 11, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
This is going nowhere
Your entire premise was blown up, and you are just too small to admit it.
Yes, teams can turn things around quickly…even going from 90+ losses to the playoffs in one year.
Yes, they can do it without spending like drunken sailors.
All the rest of this tiresome exchange is entirely peripheral to those two points, which are valid and cannot be refuted, no matter how much smoke and mirrors you throw up.
Yeah, it's going nowhere
Impossible to argue with someone who continues to claim 5 out of 12 is “nine out of ten”, and twice 29 is 45. If that’s your idea of “blown up,” then you should probably head back to BCB.
I’ve never denied teams can turn things around quickly – I wrote a lengthy article on this very top recently. But it’s far harder than you seem to think, especially on a limited budget. 46 teams since 1970 have lost a hundred games. NOT ONE got to the post-season the next year. That gives you an idea of what the Diamondbacks are up against.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
I never said it wasn't difficult
to turn things around. But your insistence on using 100 losses as a benchmark is entirely arbitrary, especially given that the D’Backs have not lost 100 games yet. So, using that as a starting point means nothing.
If you simply change it to teams that have gone from last to first, or teams that have lost more than 90 games to winning more than 90 games, then there are suddenly many examples.
And there is just as good a chance the D’Backs will finish this year with from 90-99 losses as they will 100+ losses.
And if they finish with say, 96 losses and turn that into 90 wins next year, as a number of teams have done, then I’ll take my chances with whether they make the playoffs or not (especially given that many of those 90 wins will come against division rivals).
Oh and BTW
not only are the Padres leading the NL West with the 2nd lowest payroll in baseball, but the Rangers, Reds, Rays and Braves are all in the bottom half of baseball in payroll, with all but the Braves in the bottom third.
I think it's worth mentioning...
that Hinch had a clean slate when he started. They had the same shot at the playoffs as every other team in the West. If you’ve ever played a long season in any sport and have had the misfortune of being on a bad team you’ve seen the dropoff in player morale and performance once you’re out of it. Yes, they’re professionals, yes they’re playing for money/contracts but the goal for most if not all is the postseason. Once that’s impossible you can’t expect the same level of play.
"Well, that certainly illustrates the diversity of the word."
Eh
He had a team that had lost their ace to the DL, and was largely the same team that had blown a huge lead in the division race over the end of the last season.
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
Still very young
and immature, too.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 11, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
The thing is
the players talked about AJ the way a parent would talk about their 6 year old who was trying to ride a bicycle for the first time with training wheels. They were almost apologetic in their tone.
I don’t think the players disliked AJ, I think they just say him as a trainee. That was understandable and expected last year…but when it didn’t change this year, then you have a problem.
I personally don’t think AJ was a bad manager…just the opposite. I think he got about as much as could be gotten out of this team with that bullpen.
But, it his tempermant, and the lack of respect he had from the players was going to hamper the effort going forward to turn this thing around. There are going to be a lot of challenges anyway, and adding in the fact that the players are tuning out the manager was just an additional problem that was relatively painless to fix.
Wow
Ima go write a long screed without paragraph breaks telling you to get off my lawn cuz you like numbers and stuff ;)
I do think that it’s a tad too early, SSS and all, to make any sort of judgment. If Gibby is retained beyond this season you may start to see some real dichotomy.
Bad doormat! No stock options!
I hate numbers
I think people who use numbers are stupid. I’m going to tell you about my gut.
No crying in the Snakepit. That's what your apartment is for.
Oooh
Tell me what you had for breakfast that is now sitting in your gut. That’s compelling! Numbers are for gypsies!
Bad doormat! No stock options!
truthiness
I should have a mfin theme song.
by emilylovesthedbacks on Aug 5, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
"Statistics are used like a drunk
uses a lamp post: for support not illumination."
Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is, of course, living in a state of sin.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Aug 5, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Tiebreak comes down to:
mustache.
Advantage, Gibson.
Otherwise, I voted for the Titanic.
"Twin-headed infinite swirling vortex of grotesque suckitude known as Tony Clark and Eric Byrnes"
it'll be back
once you go mustache like that, you’ll ….. well, it’ll be back
"Twin-headed infinite swirling vortex of grotesque suckitude known as Tony Clark and Eric Byrnes"
if
we’re not in “win now” mode anymore, why are we comparing Hinch/Gibby’s records? You’re absolutely right that it hasn’t made an immediate difference in the team’s performance, but who cares at this point? If we were still in “win now” mode, I might give a rip. I think we’re setting up pretty nicely for the future, restocking with young arms and a manager who has cred and is respected as a former player, if not yet as a manager. Sounds to me like you’re in denial over Hinch’s firing as much as I was about his hiring. You might have a stronger point if Hinch had been snapped up to manage another team since he was so great, but, since he hasn’t and never will…
Bottom line, I don’t think you’re going to hear any cracks in the clubhouse whether Gibby’s hiring was “A Joke.”
Go Sedona Red
yes, you will never hear any person in the clubhouse calling Gibby "A Joke"
but why does that even matter?
managers have little marginal value to add to a team.
this isn’t like basketball or football where the “manager” of the team has to oftentimes draw up plays for the team. what does the manager even do? they don’t even teach the team how to hit or pitch! we have special coaches for that!
case in point: SF giants manager bruce bochy is an idiot. the giants sucked last year at being able to get on base. this year, they brought up a new hitting coach from the minors who stressed better plate discipline, and now they are a league average team when it comes to OBP instead of the worst team in the league (which they were a year ago). bochy presided over both of those teams, which means the change had nothing to do with him.
the managers’ job is simple. figure out when to switch pitchers, use pinch hitters/runners, stay in touch with matchup advantages, and perhaps most importantly, PAYING ATTENTION TO THE GAME AND ITS RULES. i don’t care how respected you are in the clubhouse, but please explain to me how any self-respectable manager could EVER let the umpire allow an opposing hitter to get a walk on three balls and NOT NOTICE!! Are you kidding me? Any person who was at least paying attention to the game would have noticed that. What was Gibson doing that was so important at the time that he didn’t even realize some dude got a walk on three balls?
My point (and I’m sure Jim’s as well) isn’t that Gibson is so much worse than Hinch, or that Hinch was worse or better than Melvin. The point is that managers just don’t matter that much in the grand scheme of things, and that changing managers just doesn’t make your team all that much better.
by blue bulldog on Aug 5, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Holy cow!
Do you realize what you’ve done? You’ve just discovered something that has eluded every professional baseball team out there for…well…ever. Managers don’t matter. All of those so called baseball ‘experts’ have had it so wrong for so, so long.
Better enjoy it while you can LaRussa. Start packing your bags Torre. The jig is up. This. Changes. Everything. :)
"Well, that certainly illustrates the diversity of the word."
just because a lot of people realize something is true
(and a lot of people argue managers are overrated)
doesn’t mean those with the power to make a difference recognize the same thing and act on it
baseball is a classic example of organizational inertia. “traditional” baseball is simply too comfortable with long-standing ideas to even question them (do managers matter as much as we think they do? why might adding replays be better than using umps? should we try making the draft slotting system mandatory? could experimenting with trading draft picks make baseball more equitable, assuming we want the game to be more equitable?)
Exactly...
It’s really just more proof that bloggers and commenters like us are smarter than anyone else out there. How we don’t have our own teams by now – and numerous world championships – is a complete mystery.
"Well, that certainly illustrates the diversity of the word."
some bloggers and commenters are smarter
than managers/GMs out there who have their own teams
just because people don’t have their own teams doesn’t mean they can’t make acute observations and analysis. judge them by what they say and what arguments they make. just because someone has credentials in the sense that they are a manager of the team doesn’t mean they know more about something than you do
would you ever say someone is smarter than you inherently because they have a diploma from Yale? how is your comment any different from that?
Easy there, BB
I’m agreeing with you. We’ve clarified today the ‘truth’ that 1) managers are essentially unnecessary and, therefore, 2) we are smarter than not just one or two GMs out there but basically all that have ever hired a manager – and certainly those that have paid more than a couple bucks for one.
I’m onboard – this is groundbreaking stuff. Like the first time a team used a defensive shift. Exciting times. Woot.
"Well, that certainly illustrates the diversity of the word."
I'd say that all bloggers and commenters here
are at least as smart as Dayton Moore.
Leads/ties blown by the Diamondbacks bullpen in '10: 33
Part of the FanGraphs article
pointed out that the “system” recognizes that managers don’t matter much, whether or not “those with the power to make a difference”, as you put it, actively do or do not.
Otherwise, there would have been a bidding war for guys like Dusty Baker and Joe Torre.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 11, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
FanGraphs
just had an article asking why, if managers provide any significant marginal value, aren’t the “good” ones paid more?
Bochy also presided over the Padres, posted a .494 win % despite a WS loss in 1998, against almost the same competition.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 11, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Ironically
I would have thought a player development guy, like Hinch, would have been the kind of manager you would want during a rebuild.
by Counsellmember on Aug 5, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Managerial Smackdown: AJ Hinch vs. Kirk Gibson
Maybe it’s just me, but im getting sick and tired of people trying to compare Gibson to Hinch. The only time we should be thinking about compairing these two is “IF” & “WHEN” Gibson has the same amount of games Managed under his belt as Hinch did when he was let go. Thats like comparing Hinch to Melvin. Where the Diamondbacks better off with Hinch one Month after letting Melvin go? You can look at all the stats you want. At the end of the day the only stat that matters is wins and losses.
Well
if wins and losses are the only stats that matter, Gibson is definitely worse than Hinch. Whoops.
No crying in the Snakepit. That's what your apartment is for.
by soco on Aug 5, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
As noted
It becomes a lot harder to compare them, the further you get away, because the roster is changing. It’s entirely possible the Opening Day rotation Gibson has next year will have one survivor from the one Hinch had in 2010. The more changes in roster composition you have, the harder it is to tell whether any change (up or down) are due to the managerial change or the change in on-field personnel. But over the past month, Gibson has had the same hand to work with as Hinch.
Thats like comparing Hinch to Melvin. Where the Diamondbacks better off with Hinch one Month after letting Melvin go? You can look at all the stats you want. At the end of the day the only stat that matters is wins and losses.Under Melvin 12-17. First 29 games under Hinch: 13-16. That’s obviously a quick and dirty comparison – IIRC, Melvin faced tougher opposition – but since “the only stat that matters is wins and losses”… Yes, the Diamondbacks were better off with Hinch one month after letting Melvin go.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
I like the car analogy
You have a car, it doesn’t run very good. One driver tries to nurse it along getting what they can from it, not taking any chances, doing what they can to maximize their milage by following the speed limit religiously. The other driver knows the car doesn’t run so good, but decides that maybe all it needs is to try and blow the carbon buildup out of the pipes and does what they can to rev that baby up and try and get the balky engine to respond.
The problem, the plugs are bad and until you replace ‘em, it doesn’t matter a tinkers damn who’s driving.
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused....
by piratedan7 on Aug 5, 2010 1:17 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Well said.
Or, well posted. Whatever.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by 4 Corners Fan on Aug 5, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
All things being equal
I prefer Gibson’s managerial style.
But the core of the problem remains this: the talent on the ballclub is significantly below par. By comparison, even having Ludwig Wittgenstein as a teacher wouldn’t make the genetically retarded significantly any smarter.
Give me the ball.
by NASCARbernet on Aug 5, 2010 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Pitching
I have to agree with the post someone made earlier about how our pitching seems to just suck. How many pitchers get traded to another team and get better. How many come here and get worse. I know Iknow, I don’t have any number to back it up but when hear about the Tigers staff correcting a flaw in Scherzer throwing (small sample size, purely anecdotal, yadda, yadda) it makes you wonder why no one in our ogrinization caught it.
by Spaghetti_Monster on Aug 5, 2010 4:17 PM EDT reply actions
we used to have a good pitching coach
he left with melvin
+1
It looks like the real problem with firing Melvin, might have been Bryan Price going. He’s now with the Reds, if I recall – who seem to be doing pretty well this year, and being surprising in a good way…
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
There is no question
Price is doing a great job in Cincy and he was already one of the most respected pitching coaches in baseball.
I am convinced that management was totally taken by surprise when Price quit. I don’t think they counted on that happening at all. Just goes to show that when you decide to fire someone, you had better look at ALL the potential fall out before you pull the trigger.
Truth to tell, our pitching staff has not been the same since. Even Dan Haren was different post Price vs with Price.
yump
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
yet again
adding to the excellent points above, Piecoro has the ChiSox pitching coach making a minor adjustment to EJack’s delivery, resulting in a 7IP/1ER performance. He gave up 9 hits, but only had 1 BB. Not sure how much to read into one start, but overall it doesn’t exactly help Mel’s reputation at this point.
Go Sedona Red
You know what that makes you, then, don’t you?
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
I heard Kenny Williams (White Sox GM)
say this the day they traded for Edwin Jackson. Basically he said they had spotted a minor flaw in EJack’s delivery that they thought was easily correctable and that played a part in their decision to trade for him.
When you look at the number of pitchers that struggled with the D’Backs under Mel’s tutelage that went on to pitch well elsewhere (Jon Rauch, anyone?) it really makes you wonder.
I'd say
we need to keep park factors in mind, but otherwise, yeah. I agree. Mel’s borderline worthless.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 11, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I have to trust the people in the booth
Such as Todd, Grace, Sutton, and everyone else that keeps saying that the attitude on this team has changed, for the better. Like people have mentioned, none of us are as close to the team as these people, so I would like to think they have some credibility.
I am not as big on statistics as most people here. To be honest, whenever i just see numbers, I turn away. However, I did actually read this whole article, which was well put together by the way. But despite your findings, again me not relying on numbers are you guys do, I prefer Gibson over Hinch. The difference is Hinch has had a year to turn this around. He failed…miserably. I think it would be better to compare Hinch’s season last year with the games this year, to see if he improved, or players improved under him. I don’t know the numbers, and maybe it improved, but i’m thinking no, and that is why I think he got fired. Then we can do the same thing with Gibson..
At the end, I look back at this and undoubtedly can say hiring Hinch last year was a mistake to begin with.
Grace might have felt extra curmudgeonly
a couple days ago, but he had some pretty scathing things to say about the attitude of the players we traded away too. Especially Chris Snyder (at least i assume that’s who he meant when he talked about us paying another team to take a player who “didn’t care about winning or losing”). He was very careful not to mention names, but it felt like he was laying a lot of our attitude problems on the players. The Diamondbacks’ new outlook may have as much to do with who we traded away as it does with our new manager.
Now if it could translate into some success on the field, that would be grand. Good attitude or not, I feel like we’re watching the birth of a new losing dynasty. We’re well on our way to being a sun-burnt version of the Kansas City Royals.
It's interesting
but that is not the first time Grace has trashed Snyder. Remember the “swinging under water” remark?
But, I have a hard time buying the “doesn’t care about winning or losing” comment. Go back and look at Snyders 14th inning AB at home against the Mets. In fact, when I was watching that game, it immediately reminded me of Grace’s AB to start off the bottom of the 9th inning against Mo Rivera in the 7th game of the 2001 World Series. I remember when I saw Grace’s face as he dug into the batter’s box, I thought, there is NO WAY he is making an out here. He won’t allow it.
I had the same feeling with Snyder in that 14th inning game. He just simply was not going to make an out.
I never get tired
of hearing about Snyder’s underwater swing. It’s kinda like watching Ted Lilly spike his glove.
Leads/ties blown by the Diamondbacks bullpen in '10: 33
perhaps it was the subtle way
that Grace didn’t approve of the way that Snyder handled himself after being demoted from the starting lineup. While his numbers were shown to be in decline from his previous years performance and were in line, to a certain degree, with other catcher’s performances in MLB, Miggy’s performance during his injury made him the defacto #1. While Miggy was out with his injury, Snyder didn’t seize that opportunity and instead appeared to take his performance issues out on management rather than looking at his own performance. My understanding of the situation that has been alluded to, is that there were some DBacks (say Snyder, Webb, CoJack and perhaps Haren) who were unhappy with how things were playing out, Webb and Jackson due to their frustration to comeback from injury, Snyder for his playing time, and Haren because of all of the wasted efforts blown by lack of run support or competent pitching out of the pen. Perhaps their attitude in the clubhouse was becoming too large to overcome just by a change in team leadership. Again, purely speculative, but it would seem that Snyder had his chances and being a “pain in the ass” didn’t help his cause or help him make his case.
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused....
Your speculation
Sure makes sense to me. I am a big fan of all the trades we made, for whatever reason they were about; play, attitude, money, etc. Hudson and Saunders have had great outings. Add that to Enright who has yet to disappoint, I think the dbacks set themselves up for success in….2 years.
I think this is a good summation
I read some comments from Snyder shortly before he was traded that led me to conclude that he thought his production was sufficient to earn him the #1 catcher’s slot. I thought, “is he that delusional”?
I also heard tonight, for the first time, that Qualls was also very unhappy. I guess he didn’t appreciate being held accountable for his unbelievably poor performance. Good riddance, I say. But, I think your point is a good one…maybe the trade deadline moves weren’t just salary dumps and moving unproductive players, perhaps there was a certain amount of sending some malcontents packing as well.
FWIW, I am much more sympathetic to Haren’s situation, and I am truly happy that he is in a better situation, as he is in the prime of his career.
I also heard tonight, for the first time, that Qualls was also very unhappy. I guess he didn’t appreciate being held accountable for his unbelievably poor performance.
Yeah, this is true. There were quotes posted on DBBP about how Qualls said he didn’t think he was doing a bad job. Quotes… that I now can’t seem to find, now that DBBP v2.0 has died, and the archived version’s search function doesn’t work. :(
Leads/ties blown by the Diamondbacks bullpen in '10: 33
Everytime he had a shitty outing,
he “didn’t think [he] made that bad a pitch”…
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 11, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
To be fair,
Snydes’ .336 wOBA would make him the #1 catcher on about half the teams in the league.
Miggy, OTOH, has been outperformed by only 7 catchers in the league w/ 150+ PAs.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 11, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
If the attitude has changed, that's good
But if we’re not seeing a difference on the field, who cares?
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
The 2009 Rockies would beg to differ
They had a .391 W% when they fired Clint Hurdle – almost identical to the .392 we had when we fired Hinch. But the Rockies, with basically the same personnel, then went 22-8 in their first thirty games under Jim Tracy, on their way to the post-season. We’ve gone 10-20 under Gibson, on our way to nowhere.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 6, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
But I think we’d all say, Jim, that while Tracy perhaps was a better manager than Hurdle, luck has a significant role to play in that reversal.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
Also
as much as I hate to say it, their overall roster is probably better than our roster.
No crying in the Snakepit. That's what your apartment is for.
There's no "probably" about it
A few years ago, during our wildly improbable playoff run, we confused a lot of luck with genuine talent. We’ve been overestimating this group ever since.
The difference being
The Rockies last year still had a Pythagorean record of 90 wins, and weren’t really that “lucky” – only two wins less. In 2007, the D-backs were sub-.500 by Pythagoras.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
Ugh.
I’m not sure exactly what that says about Hurdle, Tracy, Melvin, Hinch, Gibson or the Diamondbacks (except that this is still a painfully awful team). It looks very much like the manager was not our problem, or at least not our only problem. Until we plug a few more leaks, we’ve got a lot of lousy baseball in our future.
This discussion about luck, attitude and managerial changes also makes me wonder if losing Josh Byrnes may turn out to be a god thing for the Diamondbacks. Of course, ownership undoubtedly had a lot of influence, but Byrnes assembled this team, he fell for the “promise” of the 2007 playoff run and mortgaged the team’s future to “win now” with a group of players that wasn’t capable of winning. He was also in charge as we built a toxic culture in the locker room. This may have been a perfect storm of bad luck and he may thrive wherever he lands next. But he left this team in terrible shape and it’ll take a lot of work to overcome the damage.
I think you’re both right.
My hunch, Jim, isn’t that Tracy radically shifted their pythagorean record when he came, but that they had been dramatically underperforming it to date or had just been dramatically underperforming their talent level
And Joe, I think you’re right. I still think they should have let Byrnes play out the string on what he assembled here (through 2013), but maybe that all would have just delayed the inevitable longer.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
As we've noted before, though,
Pythagoras assumes an even run distribution, while our bullpen was extremely two-faced in 2007.
That probably shouldn’t have any effect on our awesome record in 1-run games, though.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 11, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't
want to say definitely and have people coming out of the woodwork to be like HURF DURF DURF. But yes, their players are better than ours.
No crying in the Snakepit. That's what your apartment is for.
Oh yeah???
HURF DURF DURF!!!!!
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
Actually,
I care. The respect from the players is needed, and Hinch said himself the players weren’t responding well to him. There is NO potential whatsoever of a successful season. Gibson has the respect, and now just needs time, IMO, to turn this around. I think it’s completely unfair for Gibson to do this comparison, especially when I takes games to adjust, and this piece is focused on his first 22 games. Just doesn’t seem like a fair comparison to me.
A few other thoughts from the peanut gallery
As others have said here, I opposed this move not so much because I think Hinch was a great manager, but because I think the organization has begun to develop a history of statement managerial firings that, in fact, have little or no relation to the team’s on-field success. I opposed the firing of Brenly and Melvin as well (I thought both were poor in-game managers, but savvy clubhouse guys).
The fact of the matter is, if the team wants to begin to deal with its problems (pitching and defense* primarily), then they need to really address those in the organization, not just in statement moves.
(*While our defense continues to improve, I don’t believe we have come close to harnassing and polishing the raw athletic talent of our team when it comes to defensive ability.)
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
+1
I think the organization has begun to develop a history of statement managerial firings
“3 years, 3 managers” is not a good statement.
Oh, sure
But when they rephrase it as “Anybody, Anytime”, people are thrilled. =)
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
Made me laugh
be cause I was happy and sad at the same time
Jim, This is a very thought provoking story
I would like to see a follow up piece at the end of the season and see where the Hinch-Gibson stats lie. I know it woudn’t be the exact same teams, but I am interested in seeing how it would be interesting to see how the it pans out.
I might just do that
I also want to look and see how a team’s performance over the first X games under a new manager compares to that for the entire first season.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
Buck Showater is 3-0
sometimes a manager can fire up a team for no real reason. It hasn’t happened with Gibson but that doesn’t mean if given a full spring that he can’t improve the team.
Are the Orioles really all of a sudden a very good team, no…did Buck do anything no not yet..but he is 3-0
unfortunately this hasn’t happened in the desert
"fire up a team"
Maybe Showalter fired them up. Maybe it is just a fluke. I would tend to think it’s the latter.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
Showalter
always seems to have success, but is never given much time to complete the job. I hope he does well with the Orioles.
No crying in the Snakepit. That's what your apartment is for.
Based on his tim with the Yankees and Diamondbacks
I’ve always thought of him as a “builder” rather than a “finisher”. He seems to do well assembling and developing teams, but doesn’t quite have the magic formula to get them to the championship.
One of my favorite Diamondbacks moments is a shot of Buck Showalter, just after the team made the playoffs for the first time, watching the on-field celebration from the dugout. He looked so proud of the players and I swear (although this my be a bit of sappy revisionism by my imagination) he looked like he was about to cry.
I wish him well too.
Tim?
time, time TIME!
Oh how I long for an “Edit” feature.
I wish him well also. I think he’s a builder, but I’m a bit unwilling to say that he isn’t a finisher. I think, perhaps, he just was never given an adequate chance to finish the job he started. Even though I don’t like the Orioles (bc of Angelos), I’m pulling for the guy.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
THis was a good article...
Not just the article itself, but I really did enjoy everyone’s thoughts. I agreed with some and disagreed with others, but anytime I can sit here and read thoughtful opinions regarding the dbacks is a win in my book.

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