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Resigning Webb

There's been a lot of debate about Webb's recent comments, and I had a lot of thoughts about this so I wanted to take the time to organize it all and write it in a Fanpost.

While there has been some criticism for Mauerer's e-mail to MLBTR, I actually don't think it was a terrible action. The point is, Maurer is publicly declaring his clients demands. I actually sort of appreciate this, as I wish the public had better knowledge of what goes on when the FO is bargaining with agents/players and what various offers are given/not taken, so that we as fans could better appreciate the decisions our FO is making.

It's also a smart move by Mauerer, because he's putting the onus on the FO. By publicly declaring that Webb's number one choice is AZ, and that he wants a contract comparable to what other injured free agents have gotten in the past, he's essentially saying he wants a fair market value price for Webb, and they are willing to give AZ the tiebreaker on similar offers. So, if some team out there completely overpays for Webb (say, 12 million base salary with incentives) then we as fans know that there was nothing the FO could have done about this. On the other hand, if some team gets Webb for 8 million, then we as fans know that if our FO wanted Webb, we could have done more. This is the bonus of transparency.

Would it be NICE if Maurer and Webb were to give us a hometown discount? Yes. But it's not really Maurer's job to be nice. It's his job to get Webb the most money possible.

Is 8 million for one year of webb overpriced? Maybe. Let's take a look at just this year's injury high risk high reward starters.....(granted small sample size). Five starters (Sheets, Harden, Penny, Hudson, Webb) were basically offered a combined 40 million. Combined, they generated 7 WAR (almost entirely generated by tim hudson, going by BR's WAR), so worth 28 million dollars. Divided by five, means that a fair price is probably 6 million dollars (ironically, the amount we paid webb by picking up his option this year), which does mean that the market overprices injury risk pitchers compared to normal pitchers. However, this 2 million overprice really isn't as big of a deal when you think about it. Let's assume that 20% of injury risk pitchers go back to their 5-6 WAR forms. I feel that is reasonable, though it is influenced by this year's sample. Maybe the probability is a lot lower. The point is, teams who take on this risk don't really care about the 80% of the time the investment doesn't pan out. Because, normally in those instances, spending 8 million dollars elsewhere would not have transformed the team into a playoff contender. Can you imagine a different way for the Dbacks to spend 8 million dollars and contend next year? If not, why not spend it on Webb and take a shot at 10-20% chance at contention, rather than 0% of contention? Moreover, even if the injury risk pitcher doesn't go back to 5-6 WAR form, but still pitches at 2-3 WAR form, then the team just got another asset to trade at the deadline, which will help recover part of the cost of getting the pitcher in the first place.

This is why I would argue that it makes sense for teams in the Dbacks position to take on an injury risk pitcher who used to dominate, and is striving to build up value for a long-term contract.

The only reason why I could see a team like the Dbacks NOT spending the 8 million, would be because we want to allocate 15-20 million on a premiere free agent, and we don't want to waste part of our budget on a risk. However, I highly doubt the Dbacks want to do this, so I'd rather them spend that 8 million and give us a chance at contending, than not spend the money and be mediocre while only spending $45 million.

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8 mil for Webb would be a huge gamble

Were it my money, I would much rather spend it on a #3-ish starter and know what I’m getting. I am starting to wonder if Webb will ever return to the majors – he has issues that doctors can’t seem to find.

If he comes back next year with a vengeance for another team, I will wonder if he’s been sulking the past 2 seasons ’cuz the FO withdrew the multi-year contract offer in 2008.

by venomfan on Aug 31, 2010 8:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Moreover, even if the injury risk pitcher doesn’t go back to 5-6 WAR form, but still pitches at 2-3 WAR form, then the team just got another asset to trade at the deadline, which will help recover part of the cost of getting the pitcher in the first place.

Is it REALLY worth $8 million for a guy we intend and expect to trade?

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2010 8:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Also...who's to say he'll be at 2-3 WAR?

Were it my decision, I’d say he needs to prove that he still has “it” before a contract is offered. 2 seasons of wishing and hoping has exhausted my goodwill.

by venomfan on Aug 31, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

webb will definitely try to prove he still has "it"

nobody pays out money for people who don’t even throw pitching sessions (like erik bedard) and webb will definitely throw for suitors. once he does that, and the scouts give the okay, then people are going to pay up for it. 8 million seems to be the standard price.

i assume we’re going to spend money on pitching regardless of whether we spend it on webb or not. i’m not saying the only reason to get an 8 million guy is so we can trade him away later. i’m just saying that is how you recover some of the cost if webb does not end up pitching at a 5-6 WAR level

by blue bulldog on Aug 31, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just ask the A's.

With Ben Sheets. They’ll tell you firmly that it wasn’t.

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=343580&title=spoiler-alert-human-centipede - Warning: NSFW... sorta

by Dan Strittmatter on Sep 1, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh... WAR

I don’t think WAR is a good tool here, because as I understand, it doesn’t account for DL stints. As an exercise, consider Brandon Webb’s 2010 WAR: it’s neither 0 nor some negative value; it’s simply not well defined.

An easier analysis would be to look at those five pitchers and see who’s still in his team’s starting rotation now. Just one: Hudson. All of the other pitchers have spent time on the DL, and the only one who has come off the DL (Harden) has been removed from the rotation.

Additionally, Hudson was the only one of the five coming back from Tommy John surgery, a surgery with one of the highest rates of success for pitchers. He even had a decent return in late 2009, something that it’s not looking like Webb can do in 2010.

If Webb can’t show that he’s regained his velocity this year, then I don’t see any reason to take the risk on him for any reasonable amount of money. It makes more sense to me, that if we do think we have enough other pieces to contend next year, to spend a more via a better signing or a trade to get a lower risk and better starter.

by eel on Aug 31, 2010 10:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Here's my problem:

Brandon Webb at full form does not single-handedly make us contenders in 2011.

So, why bother? Let a prospect get a chance instead of someone who is just trying to rebuild his value so he can subsequently leave. Give the rotation spot to Wade Miley.

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=343580&title=spoiler-alert-human-centipede - Warning: NSFW... sorta

by Dan Strittmatter on Sep 1, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions  

+1

We’re not in “contend next year” mode. Any money spent on Webb is a waste (IMO) because if he is healthy he will be gone before we can contend.

by Craig from Az on Sep 1, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

We are totally contenders for next season

We would be contending this season, were it not for an overmatched manager and his effect on the bullpen. And I daresay we’ve improved as a result of the trades in July. Plus, we have 5 everyday players (not counting pitchers) with a WAR of 3+. See?

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/8/31/1660765/the-only-team-with-five-3+-war

I don’t understand the “we’re not contenders until 2012” mindset. We have a good squad now, and it will (hopefully) improve again this winter via some free agents and/or trades.

by venomfan on Sep 1, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

OMG

“an overmatched manager and his effect on the bullpen”

I seriously just shot spicy mustard through my nose because that statement was so stupid.

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Sep 1, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

So...are you saying Hinch wasn't overmatched?

Or that he had a negligible effect on the bullpen?

My take on it is that he wasn’t equipped to manage emotions in the clubhouse, and the pen was the first to fall.

by venomfan on Sep 1, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Managers are just highly-paid scapegoats.

If one gets fired and the team makes a sudden and random turn for success, the new manager is a genius! Until he starts to be awful and gets fired himself.

Does anybody think Buck Showalter actually did something to directly make the O’s win however many consecutive games when he took over?

It’s not a bad job, really, if you can take getting canned in stride.

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=343580&title=spoiler-alert-human-centipede - Warning: NSFW... sorta

by Dan Strittmatter on Sep 1, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Leads/ties blown by the Diamondbacks bullpen in '10: 37

by Jdub220 on Sep 1, 2010 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm saying

that AJ didn’t have anything to do with the play on the field. Straight up.

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Sep 1, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

This just sounds

Far too much like what we were trying to justify last year for my tastes.

Why stretch the budget for another chance to fall apart? Why not build from the ground up, let some of the kids in A-ball start reaching the bigs, build some financial flexibility to spend serious dollars a few years from now to add major pieces instead of role players, and prepare for a serious potential dynasty in the 20mid-teens?

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=343580&title=spoiler-alert-human-centipede - Warning: NSFW... sorta

by Dan Strittmatter on Sep 1, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

??

by the same argument we should just non-tender Joe Saunders and his almost 5 ERA butt next year, save the at-least 5 million, and give the rotation spot to a prospect

which, i don’t think you support…though my memory may be wrong about this

also, webb at full form would almost definitely make us contenders next year. webb at full form is a 6 WAR guy. hudson is a 4-5 WAR guy. enright, even with regression, should still be a 2-3 WAR guy. IPK is a 1.5 WAR guy, and maybe a 2 WAR guy if he can improve. saunders is a 1.5 WAR guy. or maybe use Miley (dude had a filthy outing last night…i am starting to be convinced by your prospect rank of him). we would also have parker as a mid-season callup. that means that our starting pitching WAR would have a floor of 15 WAR, and could be as high as 18-19 WAR depending on the performances of hudson/enright, and how soon and how good parker is when he gets called up.

based on BABIP, KJ and LaRoche and maybe Drew will have a small amount of negative regression. However, Reynolds should have a massive positive regression. Montero, Young, and Upton are right around what we can expect. I hesitate a little about Young, as his BABIP is at a career high, but they are at normal rates finally, and I guess I buy into the “changed approach” and “better mechanics” story. Upton should also improve next year, with lower K rates. Moreover, we should have a better left fielder next year than Parra, in Brandon Allen. so our hitting next year won’t be worse than this year, and combining this year’s hitting with the pitching rotation i just outlined is definitely a contending team.

by blue bulldog on Sep 1, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only LaRoche should regress.

He has a .337 BABIP and a .316 xBABIP.
KJ has a .326 BABIP and a .333 xBABIP.
Drew has a .313 BABIP and a .316 xBABIP.
CY: .307/.313
Montero: .320/.313
Upton: .355/.329, however has a career .340 xBABIP.
Reynolds: .272/.298, however has a career .336 xBABIP.

Leads/ties blown by the Diamondbacks bullpen in '10: 37

by Jdub220 on Sep 1, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

did you download

an xBABIP calculator? i feel like i need one of those….could be really useful in figuring out projections….

by blue bulldog on Sep 1, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

True nerds

Calculate their own xBABIP’s!

Or at least lazy nerds like me do. :-)

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=343580&title=spoiler-alert-human-centipede - Warning: NSFW... sorta

by Dan Strittmatter on Sep 1, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

seriously? you guys calculate xBABIP manually?

i’m seriously impressed

by blue bulldog on Sep 1, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not horrifying...

.75*LD% + .15*FB% + .25*GB% + .01*IFFB% is the rough calculation I use. Fangraphs/minorleaguesplits have all the goods for it.

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=343580&title=spoiler-alert-human-centipede - Warning: NSFW... sorta

by Dan Strittmatter on Sep 1, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

ah...

that’s pretty quick. thanks

by blue bulldog on Sep 1, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I got a headache just looking at that.

All Cubs fans are drunken assholes, but not all drunken assholes are Cubs fans.

-Dbacksskins

by justin1985 on Sep 1, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep.

Here you go.

Leads/ties blown by the Diamondbacks bullpen in '10: 37

by Jdub220 on Sep 1, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Teams simply don't go from where we are this year to contending the next year

The Pads are a fluke. Don’t expect to be them again. I just am not confident in our ability to have a full rebound into contention, and I don’t have any confidence in Brandon Webb providing us with 6 WAR if we sign him. It appears that this outline for success in 2011 revolves around the expectation of a lot of positive regression and no/little negative regression/over-regression, which sounds far too similar to what we were saying at the start of this year – “if CY rebounds and Drew returns to ‘08 form and Reynolds hits another 40 homers and Webb returns to form and Upton progresses and Qualls’ knee is okay and we find someone who can get lefties out…. we’ll be serious contenders!!!”

To touch on your next point, I feel like the reason we traded for Saunders in that package was to set up a deadline trade for 2011 in which we eat some more of his salary. Essentially we downgraded on Haren for a year because nobody was willing to offer us the enormous pure-prospect package needed to acquire an ace, so we temporarily downgraded so that we could flip Saunders next year to finish off the package of young talent. I support us tendering Saunders, but with the intention of subsequently moving him in 2011.

And Saunders is a piece that you can bank on being healthy. Signing injury risks with the intention of trading them is a move that may work, but may also come crashing down on you like a two-ton chandelier. Just ask the A’s how the trade market for Ben Sheets worked out.

I just… don’t like the idea of renting a pitcher who hasn’t pitched in two years with a minimal chance of contending. It could happen and work out fantastically… but it’s a risk.

Glad I’m not the GM. : )

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=343580&title=spoiler-alert-human-centipede - Warning: NSFW... sorta

by Dan Strittmatter on Sep 1, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

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