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Spring training finances: the saga continues...

Maryvale Stadium - are the Brewers the next team to threaten to move to Florida?

The ongoing debate over plans by Mesa to keep the Cubs in the Cactus League (and, more particularly, in Mesa) rumbles on. Part of me - and probably, part of you - wants to roll your eyes and scream "Enough, already!" But there is definitely a significant issue at the heart of things: what should be done to generate an appropriate ongoing revenue stream for the Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority (ASTA), to ensure that all teams have adequate facilities? With pitchers and catchers due to report to the various teams around the state this week, it does seem like an appropriate time to look at the broader question.

After the jump, we'll look at the current state of the kitty as far as Arizona is concerned, and also provide the latest updates on the Mesa/Cubs situation.

Star-divide

First, some history. The ASTA was founded in April 2000, the result of Senate Bill 1220, and in November that year, Arizona voters narrowly (52-48%) passed Proposition 302, funding the authority with a 30-year agreement to tax hotel rooms (1%) and car rental (3.25% or $2.50, whichever is greater), as well as the income from the Cardinals' new stadium, which it helped to fund, and the state income tax paid by the team. The ASTA is also intended to "develop and improve youth and amateur sports facilities" In Maricopa County. Note the last part: because it means ASTA money could not be used to improve the parks in Tucson.

The amount available for the Cactus League over the entire period of the tax (running through 2031) was expected to be $203m, but that estimate seems to date from a kinder, gentler economic era. The ASTA's most recent budget report paints a bleak picture as far as financing goes:

As we close out the current fiscal year we continue to monitor and revise, as necessary, our financial projections. We began FY2009 with a lowered revenue forecast which, at the midpoint of the fiscal year, was lowered even further by 15% for the tourism revenues. The reality is that the decline has been even more significant and is projected to grow over fiscal years 2010 and 2011 by 5% per year.

The report also shows (p. 18) that expenditure for the last fiscal year was about 110% of revenue, forcing the ASTA to dip into its operating reserve to the tune of $3.4m and the long-term picture (p. 22) is even grimmer. Having about broken even through the first decade, with a cumulative deficit of only $2.3m, the shortfall is projected to rise, by the end of the tax in 2031 to more than $234m. This would be why there's no room for any new parks in the current budget. Where did the money go? Here's a list of the major projects in which the ASTA were involved:

Amount Park Teams
$32m Surprise Stadium Royals and Rangers
$4.3m Phoenix Muni Athletics
$12m Tempe Diablo Angels
$20m Scottsdale Stadium Giants
$55m Goodyear Ballpark Indians and Reds
$60m Camelback Ranch White Sox and Dodgers

That's a total of about $184m, so as you can see, the money available until 2031 to fund new parks, or even carry out more than basic maintenance, is very small indeed. Some of this is being taken care of privately: the A's owners spent $12m on work at Phoenix Muni (though they are expecting to get reimbursed by the city and/or ASTA). That move will keep the A's here through 2024. More worrying is the Brewers' situation: they are the only team without a long-term lease, though as we've seen, teams have no problems shipping out early. The Cubs lease in Hohokam actually lasts through 2016, but they can opt-out after 2011; similarly, the D-backs got out of Tucson because of a clause requiring there to be at least three teams there, and invoked this after the White Sox left.

The Brewers lease, however, ends in 2012, and one can imagine unhappiness in Milwaukee at the Cubs jumping the queue with a "pay up or we walk" approach. Actually, you don't need to imagine; the Journal Sentinel makes it clear: "If it passes and you're a Brewers fan who buys a Maryvale ticket, you're subsidizing the loathsome and moneyed rival because the Cubs are the Valley's spring cash cow." The same piece quotes Rick Schlesinger, Brewers' VP for business operations, as saying "The Brewers are willing to sign a long-term lease as part of a renovation of Maryvale Baseball Park and an understanding of the city's development plans for the Maryvale neighborhood."

Other suggestions include a new park, split with another team (perhaps the A's), but Maryvale is basically the same age as Hohokam, about a dozen years old. Renovation seems a likely approach, even if the park, with its capacity of 7,000, is much smaller than more recent stadia. Though given the Brewers are one of the worst-supported teams in the Cactus League - in 2009, their total crowd of 82,271 was ahead only of the Rockies, and was about 40% of the Cubs total -  they don't have as much leverage.

It has been said the Cactus League would have much less issue with letting the Brewers head to Florida; from a practical viewpoint, this would reduce the number of teams to an even number (after the Reds arrive this month, there will be 15). However, Brewers' owner Mark Attanasio lives in Los Angeles, and appears to prefer the short flight to Phoenix over a cross-country one. Other factors in Arizona's favor are the usual ones: "weather, proximity to other teams, closeness to...players' off-season digs in Phoenix, and a concentration of Brewers fans in the Valley." Likely even more so than with the Cubs, the Brewers need Arizona more than Arizona needs the Brewers.

However, it should be clear from the above information that something does need to be done, with the ASTA currently having little or no money to spend for the next twenty years. The existing system is broken, and action needs to be taken in order to fix it. Now, that may well involve increasing the existing taxes, adding new ones such as a surcharge on Cactus League tickets, or promoting private investment over state funding. But whatever the end result may be, the income that it generates certainly needs to be allocated on a much better basis than which team makes the loudest noise about moving to Florida.

And, speaking of which, if you're not interested in the latest Mesa developments, you can stop reading now!


The most notable news is the complete U-turn carried out by Mesa mayor Scott Smith, regarding a) the method by which the money would be raised, and b) where the money raised would go. The next two paragraphs compare the original press release - curiously, no longer accessible from the news section on the City of Mesa site - and Smith's 180-degree U-turn, after he realized the scale of the opposition to his demand that the fans of all the other teams in the Cactus League charge their fans to built a new park, for the benefit of Mesa and the Cubs.

The effort by Arizona and the City of Mesa to keep the Chicago Cubs in the state continues to move forward. State legislation has been introduced (HB 2736) that would provide the funding source for a new Cubs Spring Training facility. The legislation will propose to build upon the successful Arizona model of using tourist-related fees to bolster economic development. The bill will seek to increase rental car fees and implement a surcharge on Cactus League tickets.

I’d like to emphasize to everyone that what we are proposing is not just a Mesa project: it is a Cactus League project... From day one, I have advocated a solution that not only keeps the Cubs from moving to Florida, but provides a framework that will benefit all Cactus League teams... We hope the teams will take the time to meet with us this week to discuss the various proposals on the table, including a possible surcharge.

Smith speaks with a forked tongue. Bill HB 2736, as introduced, is perfectly clear, giving only a car-rental surcharge and spring-training ticket surcharge as sources of financing. While the amounts of these are left blank, there is no mention of the "various proposals" Smith claims are "on the table."  So one can hardly blame the other teams for taking up arms against the legislation. Still, it's a cunning move by Smith: he hopes to get all the other Cactus League teams on board, by suggesting that they can get their noses in the taxpayer- and fan-filled trough too - just as long as his Cubbies get to stuff their faces first.

Despite this, there's been backing for Derrick Hall's statement that all the other Cactus League teams are opposed to the surcharge - also questioned in some quarters. Texas VP John Blake said, "The Rangers join the other clubs in the Cactus League in being opposed to this proposed legislation. It would result in higher ticket prices for games in Surprise, which is certainly neither in our fans nor the Rangers’ best interest. We hope that the Cubs will stay in Arizona but not at the expense of Rangers’ fans." A's spokesman Bob Rose concurred: "We are opposed to a ticket surcharge on tickets for games played at Phoenix Muni." And John Kaites, an attorney who represents the Mariners said  "All 14 other Cactus League teams oppose House Bill 2736 as introduced."

There have also been false reports in some quarters that the new Rockies/D-backs spring-training facility will be funded in part by federal cash. These appear to be incorrect: "Instead of accepting the bonding authority, the tribe has decided to take advantage of new rules for tax-exempt financing that came as part of the stimulus act, a spokesman said. Those new rules will let the tribe apply for up to $30 million through a tax-exempt loan program with a bank... [The stimulus program] gives the tribe the ability to borrow that amount from a bank that gets tax incentives for making the loan. The bank can pass on the cheaper cost of borrowing." Which makes the money, in reality, a good deal less "federal" than the average home mortgage.

Hall pulled a trump card on Wednesday, saying "We even suggested to legislators yesterday that they put the surcharge to a vote. If the taxpayers say they are willing to pay for this increase on their tickets for the Cubs, naturally we are fine with that." Hall added that the current owners "would have preferred that public funding for the team’s regular season home in downtown Phoenix had been put to a public vote rather that getting approval from the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors." It's certainly a wise move, distancing himself from Jerry's fiscal shenanigans [Mary Rose Wilcox, the supervisor who cast the deciding vote to shove through Colangelo's sales-tax for BOB, now faces 42 criminal counts, including perjury, conflict of interest, forgery and false swearing.]

The same article quotes Mayor Smith as saying "he does not like the idea of a countywide vote." Pardon my French, but no shit. He knows that if this particular piece of pork barrel politics was ever put to voters outside Mesa i.e. those who will be paying for it while seeing little or no benefit, it would go down faster than Orlando Hudson's asking price. It doesn't help that the current memorandum of understanding between Mesa and the Cubs states that the legislation must be in place by July - adding any kind of ballot to the timetable would likely prove impossible. 

Nor does it help that the state funding requested for the new complex is far, far more than for any other Cactus League park on a per-team basis. The $84m required for a single-team facility like Wrigleyville West, compares to $60m and $55m for Camelback Ranch and Goodyear respectively - both stadia which serve two teams. So the Cubs are requesting almost three times as much as any other team has been given from the ASTA and local bonds. While they may be the "engine of the Cactus League", this appears mostly to mean that they're the ones who get all the grease. If the Cubs agreed to share the facility with, say, the Brewers, we'd be a lot more sympathetic.

One thing to keep an eye on, is what happens with regard to the recent CityNorth ruling, where the Arizona Supreme Court found Phoenix's agreement to rebate up to $97 million in sales tax likely violated the state Constitution. The conclusion by the five Supreme Court judges was that "indirect public benefits - like, apparently, beating out Scottsdale for the sales tax from Bloomingdale's - aren't enough to justify a giveaway to a private party." At the moment, it doesn't apply, because all Mesa and the Cubs have is that memorandum, which has little in the way of legal standing. But it seems likely this could apply if the plan goes much further. Another piece on the decision discusses its impact on the Coyotes, but this paragraph seems appropriate to Mesa's plans too:

What we do know now is that the state of Arizona makes a clear-cut delineation between "tangible" and "intangible" benefits. "A tangible benefit would be a public road, public infrastructure, utility lines ... Something the city gets to own or the public gets use of," [Goldwater Institute attorney Carrie Ann] Sitren said. As for intangible (or indirect) benefits, "The two biggest are claims of raising tax revenues and creating jobs. Across the state, we do see a lot of deals or attempted deals saying they’ll bring in revenues, and that’s where the court says no."

Give that's basically all Mesa has to offer, definitely stand by for the possibility of future lawsuits on this one. The director of Goldwater's Scharf-Norton Center for Constitutional Litigation said of Mesa's plans, "It looks like to us, to borrow an unfortunate baseball metaphor, to be a subsidy on steroids, and precisely the type of deal the Supreme Court was talking about when the Supreme Court described impermissible subsidies." Obviously, Florida is watching the situation, but the truth is, money isn't exactly flowing there either. Interesting quotes from Philip Porter, an economics professor at the University of South Florida:

Porter said the state and local communities are "spending more and more money" on spring training, even though he believes there’s "no economic punch to a spring training team." "I am so frustrated by the whole thing," he said. "The evidence of the lack of economic impact is so strong. The teams are simply playing one community against the other. [Nick] Gandy [spokesman for the Florida Sports Foundation] said he thinks more Florida communities will be looking at private funding sources when it comes to future spring training endeavors. "Public funding for stadiums is not a popular item any more," Gandy said.

The current Naples plan includes private capital as well as an increase in the local bed tax - though I note with interest the quote in that piece which says, "One study estimated that the Cubs would bring an extra $36 million a year to Collier County." That's barely one-quarter of the amount claimed currently by Mesa's pet accountants, who said "the Chicago Cubs contribute $138 million annually to Arizona." Where does the extra hundred million dollars evaporate to? Seems like Naples need to get themselves lackeys that are better at fudging the numbers...

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I was just

Reading this story, describing how the Cubs are going to scalp some of their own tickets this year. And it suddenly struck me that the solution to funding the Cubs new park is very simple. Add an extra buck per ticket on to the cost of Wrigley tickets for the next twenty years. That’s a much smaller percentage than doing so for spring training seats, and with the Cubs pulling in over three million per year, would also result in much greater revenue than taxing all Cactus League games. In addition, Cubs fans would be, by and large, the ones paying for their own park.

Seems like a perfectly fair compromise to me. If they wanted, Mesa could still chip in the current 1/3 of the cost, since they will be getting the benefit of it.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 15, 2010 1:43 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

But...

That makes sense so we can easily rule that out as an option.

Wear your own fur.

by Marc Fournier on Feb 15, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks Jim

This is very substantial and makes me very angry about the taxpayer subsidy business.

I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot dog.

-Some crazy Cubs fan

by Reynolds rapper on Feb 15, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

The flip side of your the brewers will take it argument

They do move when they’re unhappy with localities. The West Virginia Power is now a Pirates affiliate. They’ve been going back and forth with Huntsville and there is talk they will leave there as well.

One that they’re happy with is their high-A team in… Florida. They have a new training facility in the Dominican Republic, a short flight from Florida. The owner is a huge Yankees fan and as part of the grapefruit league, they’d play them. Attanasio is wealthy. I imagine he would just buy a condo there. They have players who make their homes in Florida and others on the East coast.

by ol Pete on Feb 15, 2010 4:26 PM EST reply actions  

You will take this the wrong way

but I don’t see anyone beating down the doors of the Brewers begging them to come for 30 days to their city( I have no illusions about the DBacks either other than they are the home town team).

Sounds like your team would be better suited then for the Grapefruit League, enjoy all Florida has to offer.

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 15, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Why not make it a two-team facility?

I’m sure Cubs fans and Brewers fans would love to share the new grounds, right? =)

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 16, 2010 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Seriously, though

I’d hate to see the Brewers leave. I caught a game at Maryvale last year and really liked the park.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 16, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions  

It is a nice park

and I would MUCH rather have the cubs leave than the brewers

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 16, 2010 1:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, Derrick Hall just stoops to new lows every day

Pretending to be a lawyer for the Mariners, a spokesman for the As, and a VP for the Rangers, just so he can continue his crazy “other teams in the Cactus League oppose this” stance? It’s obvious that this fraud is only another aspect of Hall’s one-man crusade, since the rest of the Cactus League could not possibly be against giving money to the Cubs!

…woah. It was like I channeled the combined spirits of a Cubs fan and ’Hacks all at once. Now I feel like I need a shower.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 15, 2010 10:09 PM EST reply actions  

AH-HA!

I blame you for leaving the door open to western"IgottasupportchicaogoatallcosteventhoughIlivewestoftherockies"cubbie

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 16, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, man

I was waiting for the pizza delivery guy, and you know how the Cubs fans’ll just scurry through if you aren’t careful.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 16, 2010 12:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Besides

How can you argue with some of westerncubbie’s great points, like “the numbers will be there somehow”?

No, I mean, really, how can you argue with that? It’s not even a valid reason, it’s just hope mixed with willful ignorance.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 16, 2010 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Though

There are some good points over at BCB, like “We don’t need to be spending scarce state resources improving a billionaire’s business.”

Oh, wait, that was some guy talking about the Vikings wanting a new stadium. I’m sure it isn’t relevant here.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 16, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Commedians downtown

Derrick Hall is so noble in his quest to protect the taxpayers. I am so impressed that he is willing to extend his “let the people decide with a vote” proposal to the taxpaying residents of the Salt River Pima’s. I’m sure they are equally honored to be able to have the final decision on the $120 million investment that is being made…
When is that election again Derrick?

by westerncubbie on Feb 15, 2010 11:45 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

TROLL ALERT!

Can’t wait to see the cubbies fly off to Naples

Lemme know if you need help packing, I’ll drive you there myself.

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 16, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Private. Funding.

I’m sorry you apparently don’t understand the difference between that, and asking the fans of the other teams in the league to fund the bulk of the costs for your shiny new park.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 16, 2010 12:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Wait

what?

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 16, 2010 9:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Correct me if I am wrong but

isn’t the math equation something like:
$120mil (private funding) divided by 2 teams = $60mil
And the Cub’s equation is $84million of everyone else’s money divided by….. 1?

My imagination is greater than your nay-say.

by Jargamus Prime on Feb 16, 2010 9:29 AM EST reply actions  

listening to WSCR this morning

(Chicago sports talk radio)
Some guy filling in on the Mully and Hanley show refers to this situation: The Cubs will get what they want, there is no question about that.

Then the two discuss whether the timing, given the state of the economy, was poor to shake down people and conclude that its a process that takes time, so why wait.

So Chicago fatcat decides to muscle a local government to take money from his competitors… standard operating procedure in Chicago… Ricketts deserves a nickname… hey his name sounds like… oh, I better not say that, the kids and all you know…

by ol Pete on Feb 16, 2010 9:49 AM EST reply actions  

Thanks.

Good stuff again Jim. Thanks. Its kind of amazing how something like spring training can get everyone up in arms. I guess I am getting past it cause I dont see much happening in lowly Tucson (after this year) until the Yakult Swallows move here. No more anger or denial or depression from me (concerning ST in Tucson as least).

However, if the state legislature raises another “fee” (aka tax)… frickin politics.

by Bcawz on Feb 16, 2010 11:33 AM EST reply actions  

Wrong Question (IMO)

The article includes the statement "what should be done to generate an appropriate ongoing revenue stream for the Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority (ASTA), to ensure that all teams have adequate facilities? "

Not a damn thing, unless you are asking MLB – they can try to figure out how to implement facilities that will attract fans to buy their product, or they can leave. Even as a life-long baseball fan, I have no interest in subsidizing MLB. I don’t believe their economic impact projections (even the more conservative ones from Florida).

No more public money for private enterprise. That’s why it’s called “private”!!!

by Craig from Az on Feb 16, 2010 4:10 PM EST reply actions  

+1

"Have a take and do not suck or you will get run." - Jim Rome

by jonny-yuma on Feb 17, 2010 1:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Spring training

Most people here don’t remember that the Yankees trained in Arizona for years. Other teams began to slowly arrive and huzzah! A Cactus League. But that aside, Spring Training is probably way too long as it is, and its importance is probably greater for the smaller, local towns than it is for the franchises. Now, with all the hubbub regarding financing, consider this: Derrick Hall’s one man crusade to halt the Cubs attempt to do a Chicago shake down on Mesa isn’t altogether born of community -spirited altruism: there are territorial considerations and the understanding that public money given to one team is public money no longer available (at least in principle) to another.

That doesn’t mean he’s wrong by any means. Its just that in today’s limited economy, public funds and revenues are precious, despite another certain well-known Chicago operative’s attempts to shake down the American Taxpayer.

From someplace far overseas, NASCARbernet.

by NASCARbernet on Feb 17, 2010 3:35 AM EST reply actions  

Correction.

The Yankees trained in Arizona for one year — 1951. They swapped sites with the Giants that spring. Otherwise the Yankees have trained in Florida since 1924 (save the years they had to train in northern cities during WWII due to travel restrictions).

Source

As some of you here know (Jim knows) I’m a Cubs fan and proprietor of the SBN Cubs site Bleed Cubbie Blue. I believe some form of legislation will eventually be passed to build the new Cubs stadium, and some of the money will benefit other teams in the Cactus League. I think we can all agree that the presence of the Cubs — who provide more than a 1/15 share of fans and revenue — in Arizona spring training, is a benefit to all teams in the Cactus League.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 17, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Complete history of the Cactus League here

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 17, 2010 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

One could

concede the Cubs’ are a benefit without making the jump that the other teams owe the Cubs anything. It’s a nothing statement.

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 17, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Of course

The presence of ALL the teams is a benefit to the Cactus League. Some more so than others, but I don’t think the Cubs’ advantage in this area should allow them to demand a new method of funding, (initially, at least) purely for their benefit.

There is definitely a debate to be held over funding the league, but the income needs to be allocated on the basis of need, not who makes the loudest threats about moving to Florida.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 17, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I suspect what's going to happen...

… is that the ticket surcharge idea will be quietly dropped, and some other way will be found to fund this complex.

Consider that the surcharge would have raised only $1.5 million per year (based on the $1 per ticket idea), it wasn’t that much money anyway.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 17, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Except now

the figure is 8% surcharge on Cactus League tickets.

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 17, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

That comes to $2 on a $25 ticket.

Still not a deal-breaker if you’re going to a game. I’d think.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 18, 2010 8:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe not

but maybe people here don’t want to have to pay extra for someone else’s benefit.

That’s the point.

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 18, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

Come on, Al, I’ve read a lot of Cubs fans complaining about the public financing for the White Sox field- how is this any different? Oh, except that was a hotel tax, so it didn’t even affect most natives to Chicago.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 18, 2010 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

But...but...

that’s the White Sox, and they don’t have any fans, and look at how many attendance championship banners the Cubs have and and and

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 18, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a benefit to the municipalities

not the league a 3-5 dollar increase on the cost of a Cactus league ticket is going to lead to diminished attendance. That diminished attendance is going to far exceed the extra 4200 people the teams get for 1 game.

There are real reasons other teams and some other municipalities are against it. I’m not quite sure how, given the climate out here, any other funding mechanism is possible.

The problem for Cubbie nation is that while they make up a large percentage of the money and the rears in the seats, all of this basically goes to benefit the Cubs. Maybe you could get other teams on board by revenue sharing Spring $ but that would be kind of weird.

As it stands, they want to take monies from communities like Surprise and Maryvale (by lowering attendance) as well as from the teams themselves and raise their section of the pie significantly (while probably growing the pie on paper). So most of the money would be in Mesa and with the Cubbies.

I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot dog.

-Some crazy Cubs fan

by Reynolds rapper on Feb 17, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

The presence of other teams benefit the Cubs

You sound like you’re selling the banker bailout.

by ol Pete on Feb 18, 2010 8:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Nope

the Cubs are the only ones who provide benefit, the other teams might as well be doing nothing.

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 18, 2010 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

"Cubbie tax" is dead.

KTAR reports Selig came out against it. So, now no stadium and no moving. Way to misjudge the political climate Cubs. Also, way to stick with a loser idea after it has been judged wanting.

I think the only option left is Gila River or go in halvsies with a Grapefruit team.

I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot dog.

-Some crazy Cubs fan

by Reynolds rapper on Feb 17, 2010 3:48 PM EST reply actions  

Duly FP'd

Appreciated the heads-up.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 17, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Even if the ticket surcharge is dead...

… that doesn’t mean the whole deal is dead. There’s a lot of negotiating time left.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 17, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem is

a) that in the AZ climate a “tourism tax” was all that was going to pass
b) specific to Mesa there is no property tax so all they can do for their end of the funding is to raise sales taxes which defeats the purpose of bringing the Cubs to town.

Good luck with that Naples thing, with the rise of the Tea Party and Rubio in FL.

Gila River or a shared public stadium is still your best option for a stadium.

I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot dog.

-Some crazy Cubs fan

by Reynolds rapper on Feb 17, 2010 5:43 PM EST reply actions  

From what I've read

Gila River is even more of a bluff than Naples- they’re not interested in a stadium.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 17, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Then why did Gila River

send representatives to Chicago to meet with the Cubs?

In truth, Gila River makes more sense for a ST Stadium than the Salt River/Pimas do. Gila River has been by far and away the #1 corporate sponsor of the D’Backs from Day One and buys the most advertising on D’Backs broadcasts.

And then there is the whole keeping up with the Jones’s aspect (Re; Salt River).

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

They had my vote

(I won’t mention they are like just a few miles due south of me)

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 20, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

the truth is

that Gila River potential deal makes more sense in today’s economy than anything else I’ve heard. It was a win-win for the D’Backs/Rockies and the Salt River/Pima tribe and no reason why it couldn’t be the same for the Gilas.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Mesa

Mesa definitely has to be the ugly step-sister city to Phoenix. Mesa still can’t get over the fact that they voted down the Cardinals Stadium, yet complain that they have to drive to the west valley to go see a game. Now they’re screwing this whole mess up. But instead of voting on it, which city leaders know would fail again miserably due to the overwhelmingly large contingency of blue-hairs that will vote any issue down concerning money, civic leaders will try and jamb Phoenix and every other county city for revenue?

I understand that the Cubs are popular here because the majority of the Phoenix area is based with residents, especially from the Chicago area, retiring here coupled with their historical ineptitude and their fans’ penchant for drinking alcohol. Add this to beautiful weather and good looking women and now your the best draw in town. However, Arizona’s finances are already upside down with no help in sight for the near future. Tourism is already overtaxed through hotels and car rentals. Maybe they could hit up another Indian community, that has a casino nearby, to help fund and build a new facility.

Badgers! Badgers! We don't need no stinkin badgers!

by haas on Feb 18, 2010 3:48 AM EST reply actions  

The negative impact

to those residents would far outweigh the negative impact to the Cactus league of the Cubbie departure. That’s why we’ve been getting lectured of late as to why the Cubs MUST MUST MUST have a new park coupled with new places to drink.

I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot dog.

-Some crazy Cubs fan

by Reynolds rapper on Feb 18, 2010 5:11 AM EST up reply actions  

It is

extremely unlikely that the “majority” of Phoenix is from Chicago or the Chicago area.

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 18, 2010 8:03 AM EST up reply actions  

I know

I was just trying to imply that I’m betting the majority of our population has moved here from somewhere else, Chicago being one of those cities. I’m sure its not a majority but I’m sure there is a sizable contingent of chicago fans who live here, which is why they are such a big draw here.

Badgers! Badgers! We don't need no stinkin badgers!

by haas on Feb 18, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Know the facts

One of my biggest frustrations is that people talk without knowing the facts. Mesa residents will vote on this. Mesa voters have passed the last three incentive deals by overwhelming majorities.

by westerncubbie on Feb 18, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

That

surprises me greatly.

Badgers! Badgers! We don't need no stinkin badgers!

by haas on Feb 18, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Why?

When businesses offer to come into your community and create jobs, new tax revenue, and all the perks of economic development in exchange for some tax breaks, why would you not jump at it? It’s not like they are taking away existing tax revenue, they are just asking for a break on the taxes they will be paying in the future as their project gets built. Typically it is on vacant land that isn’t producing anything now.

Especially in Mesa. It’s not just the loss of the Cardinals stadium (think Glendale is sorry they gave breaks on that?), it’s the closure of the Motorola plant, city layoffs, etc etc. Mesa is not in good shape.

When a company says we will come to your community, provide hundreds, if not thousands of jobs, generate a ton of new tax revenues….all we ask is that to help us out, you tax us at a slightly lower rate for the first couple of years to help us launch this venture….darn right we jump on the bandwagon.

Of course, the Goldwater Institute takes a different view, but that is another topic for another day.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

No

you shouldn’t just jump on the bandwagon. When people start throwing around numbers and promises about how much jobs or money will be created by a business, there needs to be a serious look at how these numbers were derived. You never believe a company when they say

we will come to your community, provide hundreds, if not thousands of jobs, generate a ton of new tax revenues….all we ask is that to help us out, you tax us at a slightly lower rate for the first couple of years to help us launch this venture…

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 20, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Well you are missing the forest for the trees

the MOU between the Cubs and the City of Mesa commits the Cubs to Mesa (if certain milestones are met) for 25 years, with an option for another 10.

The economic benefit to Mesa, and to the Valley of having the Cubs train here for that long is many, many multiples of what the cost of the new stadium complex is. Nobody is disputing that. This is a good deal for Mesa, for the Valley and for Arizona. End of story.

The only thing that is disputable is some of the annual economic benefit numbers and how they were arrived at. But the economic benefit is there to justify the project, it’s just the magnitude that is open to question.

The larger issue here is what is the most equitable way to get this paid for, and significantly, what precedent is being set and what it may mean to the future of the Cactus League.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

And also

Whether the Cubs are willing to accept their proper place in the funding queue, or continue to use threats and blackmail to leapfrog ahead of other parks and teams whose need is greater.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, if I were a Cubs fan

which I most assuredly am not, I would respond to this by saying, what about Jerry Reinsdorf? He jumped his place in line TWICE and reneged on a deal with Phoenix/Maryvale in the process.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

And

I think you missed my point entirely.

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 20, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not really

a fact. It might be easy to assume that it will happen in the future, but it’s not a fact.

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 18, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

It *is* a fact

that Mesa overwhelmingly approved Mesa Riverview (questionable), Waveland Water Park (highly questionable) and the Gaylord Resort (a no brainer) deals by large margins. That is what westerncubbie is referring to, and he is correct.

Nobody can say for sure how a Cubs vote would turn out, but the odds are extremely good that it would be approved. People in Mesa understand the importance of the Cubs to the city, make no mistake. And the fact that the new facility would largely be paid for by others makes it sort of a no brainer.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

He is correct

that Mesa voters have voted on things in the past, but incorrect in assuming that this is any indication of the future. That’s not hard to figure out.

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 20, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

First of all

he didn’t say that as being a fact. He did say that the fact of what has happened in the past is a good indicator of what could happen in the future…which in fact, goes without saying.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Was that before or after the economy tanked?

Serious question. Things are radically different, especially here in Arizona, than they were 18 months ago.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 18, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually the Gaylord Resort vote

was in March 2009, when the economy was at about it’s lowest point.

I actually think in Mesa anyway (and I live there), the feeling is that these supposed economic development projects are absolutely necessary to pull the city out of the doldrums.

There is almost a sense of desperation. See comment below about the mood here over the failure to get the Cardinals football stadium on the east side of town.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Not to nitpick with someone who says "Know the facts"

but technically they will vote on $26 million of the stadium deal. The legislature will have to vote on the “Cubbie tax” if Selig doesn’t just tell Ricketts to back off, however, this now will guarantee reps from Surprise, Tempe, the Maryvale area and Goodyear will vote against it. And people with R’s after their names will be very tempted to vote against it for “Tea Party” type reasons. The floor vote is going to be rougher than the committee.

I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot dog.

-Some crazy Cubs fan

by Reynolds rapper on Feb 19, 2010 6:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Aren't the Rs

the guys who are pushing the Cubs tax? I’m not all that informed but in the bit I have looked at it, it seems like proponents are Rs.

by ol Pete on Feb 20, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

But the "Tea Party" undercurrent is

anti-bailout so R politicians may be for it but Tea Partiers tend to be against it.

I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot dog.

-Some crazy Cubs fan

by Reynolds rapper on Feb 20, 2010 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Mesa and voters

One of the best comments I have seen about this was in a post by Dan Bickley on AZCentral about the Cubs and Mesa:

“Alas, without its iconic baseball team, Mesa will become a dying pulse, a fading blip on the map, a city that already passed on a chance to build the Cardinals a new stadium.

“Believe me, not a day goes by when I don’t hear that from someone,” Mesa Mayor Scott Smith said.

And as any fan will tell you, regret is a terrible thing."

As a resident of Mesa, I say “Amen”.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I fixed it for you
Alas, without its iconic baseball team, Mesa will become continue to be a dying pulse, a fading blip on the map, a city that already passed on a chance to build the Cardinals a new stadium.

Really, if the Cubs spring training stadium – new or old – is the jewel in your civic crown, then your city has got far, far bigger problems.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Truly

if a one and a half month economic jolt is the only thing going for your town, then you might have bigger problems.

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 20, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay

can I borrow $39M from you then? Since that amount is apparently insignificant to you.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not a question of if that sum is significant to you or me

But how significant it is in the overall scheme of things. If 15 games of baseball, attended by a couple hundred thousand people (a hefty percentage of that number consists of locals) is a bedrock of your economic status, to the point that removing it would spell the doom of the city, then I think there really needs to be some thought about diversification.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 20, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

No

Nobody with a lick of sense (some here may or may not fit that description) is suggesting that the City of Mesa, or the Cactus League for that matter, is doomed if the Cubs don’t get a new stadium.

But, it would be a serious blow to both if the Cubs leave. There is no arguing that.

Also, surveys show that about 60% of the fans at Cubs ST games are out of state visitors.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

I can’t argue that Dan Bickley has a lick of sense, so I guess we’re agreed on that topic. =)

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 20, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

So?

The two new teams which arrived last season in Arizona, combined to bring more fans than the Cubs. If the Cubs left tomorrow, it would set the Cactus League attendance (and economic income) back, all the way to…2008. Actually, less than that, since probably about half the impact would be negated by the arrival of the Reds this spring.

The survey also show that MORE than 60% of Brewers, Giants, Mariners and Padres fans come from out of state. So, if anything, Maryvale, Scottsdale and Peoria are more deserving of funding.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

This must be Scottish logic

there is no arguing that the Cubs bring more fans who go to more games and spend more money than any other team in the Cactus League, and by a wide margin. The Cactus League surveys, the Pollack Report and all other evidence makes that clear. So your point is what??

Your claim that the Dodgers and White Sox combined outdrew the Cubs may be true on the surface, but if you look at it closer, you find the only time the White Sox and Dodgers had sell out games at Camelback Ranch last year was when they were playing…guess who…the Cubs.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

You're the one who said
Also, surveys show that about 60% of the fans at Cubs ST games are out of state visitors.

My “Scottish logic” was pointing out this actually puts them well behind a number of other teams in the league. Fans of the Rangers, Royals and Brewers also stay longer, while the Giants, Angels and Brewers fans all spend more per trip.

The only area in which the Cubs are #1 is in number of fans, and the number of out of state visitors they bring in is easily more than compensated for, by the new teams in the league.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Still losing me

can we agree that 60% of 200,000 is a much larger number than 70% of 90,000? And that 100,000 Cubs fans staying an average of 5 nights represents more money spent than 40,000 Brewers fans staying 6 nights?

You can’t argue with the numbers, Jim.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

It is, however

NOT more than 60% of the combined fanbase for the Dodgers, White Sox and Reds, who have arrived in the valley this year and last.

I say again, losing the Cubs tomorrow, would basically roll the Cactus League back to about the attendance and economic impact numbers for the state it had in 2008. Not quite the economic armageddon you or others claim.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you have me confused

with someone else. I was the first one on BCB to say Whoa! when people were saying the Cubs leaving would be a major disaster for the Cactus League. In fact, I was the first to take issue with the “engine that drives the Cactus League” phrase.

However, there is no question that CL is a lot stronger with the Cubs in it than without.

BTW, you can’t include the White Sox in your scenario above. They have been in the Cactus League since 1998.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh and in addition

I have gone on record on BCB as saying that I believe that in a few years, when their fan base gets acclimated to the new location and the economy brightens, the Dodgers (and the D’Backs for that matter) will push the Cubs for the highest attendance in Spring Training.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Ummm,

David Hume was a famous Scottish philosopher, so don’t go mocking “Scottish Logic”.

I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot dog.

-Some crazy Cubs fan

by Reynolds rapper on Feb 20, 2010 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah

I don’t believe in hand-outs like that.

All targets neutralized. Program completed. By your command.

by soco on Feb 20, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, come on Jim

you are stepping on toes here. Mesa is the 2nd largest city in Maricopa County, It not only is not a dying pulse, it is a vibrant city of over 450,000. The median age is 34.1, which is WAY lower than Scottsdale (39.2)

Really, I don’t get it. I really wonder if some of the comments I read from people on here about Mesa aren’t written by people who have never done anything more in Mesa than drive thru it.

I never said the Cubs stadium was the jewel, but it has the potential to be a tremendous asset…both economically and recreationally. Ask Glendale if Camelback Ranch adds anything to the landscape.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think badly of Mesa

I just don’t think of it all.

Seriously. I’ve been living in Arizona for almost a decade now, and the only time I have ever been enticed to Mesa is for an AFL game at Hohokam and a couple of wrestling shows at Broadway Rec. And we got free tickets for all of them.

I’m sure it has nice restaurants or whatever, but as someone who is not a Cubs fan, Mesa is indeed somewhere we drive through, on our way to places we want to go. That isn’t our problem. It’s Mesa’s.

Building the Cubs a new stadium will not alter that, and more than losing the team will cause the city to implode into anarchy and barbarism, as the quote from Bickley (and which you endorsed) suggests.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

"ANY more than losing the team"

Obviously.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you for making my point for me

What Bickley did, thru the use of hyperbole, is to correctly identify the mood here in Mesa, especially relative to the missed opportunity of the Cardinals stadium, and various other hits the community has taken in the last few years.

You seem to be missing the bigger picture here. Mesa has a lot going for it, and the real prize on the horizon is the currently on hold Gaylord Resort and Convention Complex. You can bet that Scott Smith is keeping the Gaylord folks apprised of the Cubs situation and the potential synergy between the two projects cannot be overstated.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

It seems from these projects that Smith

Wants to make the city entirely reliant on tourist /visitor dollars. I’m not convinced this is a wise move for any city, especially the second-largest city in Maricopa County.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Not at all

the type of economic development that Gaylord represents will make Mesa more attractive to companies wanting to relocate here. That strategy has proven successful time and time again all over the country.

The announcement of the Gaylord resort plan was attended by representatives of Boeing and McDonnell Douglas, both of whom are considering expansions/new factories in Mesa. Think they were there for the free lunch?

In fact, bringing it back to baseball, it has been pointed out how important having the Cubs here is to the recruitment of companies. The City Economic Development chief said that when Mesa initiates contact with potential companies looking to relocate, invariably the response they get is “Mesa? That’s where the Cubs train, right?”

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

The City Economic Development chief said that when Mesa initiates contact with potential companies looking to relocate, invariably the response they get is "Mesa? That’s where the Cubs train, right?"

And yet, up above you say, “Ask Glendale if Camelback Ranch adds anything to the landscape.” You think they won’t get people saying, “Glendale? That’s where the Dodgers train, right?” Bit of a double-standard there.

But really, any company that moves into Mesa because “that’s where the Cubs train” needs its head examined. I think you’ll find the heads of Boeing, etc. don’t give a damn about whether the Cubs are in Mesa or not. It offers name recognition and nothing else.

And how is that Gaylord Resort working out? Still indefinitely on hold? Seems like Citynorth v2.0 to me…

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh?

That was exactly my point. That if you asked the City of Glendale if Camelback Ranch added anything to Glendale, the answer would be a resounding yes. You are absolutely correct that in the future, corporate CEOs in Southern California will think of Glendale as the city in Arizona where the Dodgers train.

I never said that ANY company would move to Arizona because of the Cubs training here. Please don’t put words in my mouth. It is all about brand recognition and being a conversation starter. If Chandler contacts the same company, the response may well be, “Chandler, huh. Never heard of it.” Instead of, “Mesa, oh yeah, I remember seeing the sunny skies and mountain vistas on the WGN broadcasts of a Cubs Spring Training games.”

Gaylord is on hold because of the economy, but I predict it will get built and I predict it will get built sooner if the Cubs stadium gets approved.

It most assuredly is NOT CityNorth 2.0. The project and the tax breaks that go with it were overwhelmingly passed with 84% approval, and if you think the Goldwater Institute, the Arizona Supreme Court or any politician in Arizona wants to try to overturn the wishes of 84% of the voters in Mesa, welcome to Mars.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Sunny skies and mountain vistas?

Yeah, that’s a good reason to build an airplane plant in Mesa… If the Cubs spring training stadium is the only – or even the best – conversation starter Mesa has to offer, than once again, it’s a city in serious trouble.

My reference to CityNorth was not in reference to the Goldwater decision, but the fact that it’s similarly a victim of the economic recession and is “on hold” as a result. Roughly translated, the city in question bent over for the developers and got royally screwed in the process. Cities should not make commitments to developers without getting the same in return.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Jim

you haven’t been in Arizona long enough to really understand the history of economic development in this state. For many years, the largest private employer in Arizona in the state, by far, was Motorola. Motorola is a Chicago company which was run a group of gentleman who fell in love with Arizona and the weather when they came out here for Cubs Spring Training.

That and a cheap labor pool.

Hughes Aircraft moved to Tucson and became that area’s largest private employer because Howard Hughes liked the desert.

Ok, those days are gone, but if you don’t think our weather and scenic beauty frequently play a role in companies decisions to relocate here, you are as wrong as can be. Ask any economic development official in any Valley city and they will set you straight.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I could care less about the HISTORY of economic development

It’s the future that concerns me. As you correctly state, “those days are gone”. I think you’ll find that the weather in Mesa is not dissimilar to the weather in Glendale, so it’s hardly the slightest reason to pick one over the other. And, again, the new teams arriving in the Cactus League have easily brought more than sufficient fans and “name recognition” to replace whatever might be lost by the Cubs departure.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

"Those who ignore history...

…are doomed to repeat it’s mistakes". — George Santayana

Man, you just don’t get it. It isn’t a matter of picking Mesa over Glendale. It is a matter of being aware of Mesa due to the presence of the Cubs as opposed to say, Chandler or Red Rock, Texas, who have no such brand recognition. Having the Dodgers is an asset to Glendale, and will be more so in the future, I never said they weren’t.

The fact that the Cactus League has new teams and fans makes it healthier. And it means that losing the Cubs would have less impact now than it would have if they had left in say, 1997. I’ll grant you that.

But, if they leave now, it will be significant. More significant than the loss of any other team, by far. To Mesa, Scottsdale, Phoenix and the entire Cactus League.

So, what exactly are we debating here? Or is this just an exercise? Are you saying having the Cubs is not an asset to Mesa in all the ways I have stated? If so, we will just have to agree to disagree.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

"Those who ignore history..."

“Are clearly Cubs fans.” — Jim McLennan

There’s a whole raft of issues here:
1) Public funding for private enterprise in general.
2) The Cubs’ claiming the current 13-year old facility – which they approved – is now unsalvageably horrible
3) Their “pay for it or we walk” negotiating tactics.
4) Mesa wanting to apply surcharges to the fans of every other team to pay for it.
5) Since Mesa is so desperate to retain the Cubs, they should contribute more than 1/3 of the cost.

None of these have been addressed.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Subset of #2

The insistence that the unsalvageably horrible facility will also have no problems finding a new tenant once they leave.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 20, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

On this

I agree 100%. On points #1 thru #5. I have concerns about all those issues as well, including subset.

LOL on the Jimmy Mac quote.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, it's easy to get distracted

From the actual topic at hand…

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

It's kind of amusing

I get accused at BCB of being anti-Cub for voicing the same concerns (and others besides) as #1 – #5, and here I get pummeled for arguing on behalf of the economic benefits of this new stadium.

I really don’t think the two things are in conflict. I like the idea of a new Cubs stadium in Mesa from an economic development standpoint, but that doesn’t mean I am blind to #1- #5 and I think they significant issues.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't doubt the economic impact

That side of things I’ve never argued as a basic principle. However, I have enormous qualms about every other aspect, from the basic principle of public funding for sports stadia, through to the dangerous precedent it would set.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

But Jim

if it weren’t for public funding of stadia, you would be without any professional sports teams in Phoenix. None. Zippo.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Several big differences

The Cardinals stadium, for example, was funded by Prop 302, on which the entire county got to vote. Which is fair enough, even if I’d have voted against it (if I got to vote…).

Not seeing any voting opportunities here, outside of Mesa.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

But you didn't get to vote

on Chase Field. Or jobing.com. Or America West.

Would you have voted against the county wide sales tax that paid for Chase if given the chance?

I would be in favor of a county-wide vote, but even that has flaws. A lot of people would be voting yes or no on something they would never use and could care less about.

All the Mesa vote does is give Mesa the authority to proceed. It does not give thumbs up or down on how it gets paid for.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually would have voted against Chase

Given the chance. There are plenty of good reasons to increase sales tax: funding Jerry C’s Palace O’ Deferred Salaries is definitely not one of them.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Then what would you do

with all your spare time, because there would be no azsnakepit.com to run.

Okay, your snarky comment about Jerry C. and deferred salaries makes me want to post this: http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs164.snc3/19162_301879907581_668567581_3516357_1544015_n.jpg

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

There's no reason to get

obscene Jim.

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 20, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

the Chicago exodus of companies

is due to high costs there, primarily taxes. I steer clear of it nowadays, but there is also data and studies that suggest giving free money to companies to move is a loser in the long run.

by ol Pete on Feb 20, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

How did the voters get screwed by Gaylord?

I’m totally confused. The tax break Gaylord gets only kicks in once they start building. Whether it is 2010 or 2014, it is still a good deal. It was fully understood, by Mesa officials, and the voters, that this project would stay on the drawing boards until the economy improved.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

City not = voters

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Neither the city

or the voters got screwed by Gaylord. It was well understood from the beginning that they were betting on the come on this project. And it has cost nothing other than the cost of the election, which would have had to be held in any event.

So, I guess I lost your point.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Precedent?

Now every other private company sees Mesa as an easy mark to fund their projects. Just ask the Cubs.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Disagree

the City of Mesa is not doing anything different than what other cities are doing. This is not a handout…this is the competitive business of economic development. In fact, Gaylord got similar concessions (which is much better description than “subsidy”) from other cities where they built resorts. Which are fabulously successful, by the way.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

WalMart

has a history of getting money from local, county, state and a variety of federal sources. They also tout job creation. They also destroy jobs and are paid for by property owners and various other taxpayers. Success isn’t always such an easy thing to measure.

by ol Pete on Feb 20, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Chandler=Intel

Microchip, and the host of high tech industries that support those two.

Chandler doesn’t need to hook itself to a 30 day event, it is diversified enough to stand on its own.

Arizona’s house was built out of cards and that foundation was growth and tourism. That is a very poor recipe for long term success of a region. jmo

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 20, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Chandler is in much the same boat as Mesa

Motorola left, half the electronics companies along Chandler Blvd. have closed up shop.

Chandler was more than happy to invest in a ST stadium for the Brewers back in the 1980s and then watched the Brewers leave for Maryvale.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

But my image of Chandler

is worlds away from what it is of Mesa.

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 20, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Mesa is twice the size of Chandler

both in terms of population and in physical size. Mesa is a much older community. It was a city in it’s own right going back 60+ years. Chandler is a newer city, with most of it’s growth occurring in the last 20+ years.

But, in terms of economic development, tax base, etc, they are very similar. Chandler is a more affluent city, but that is mostly due to Intel.

Chandler is more like east Mesa, which is also newer and more affluent.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh and BTW

would you care to discuss the tax incentives and concessions that Chandler had to cough up to get Intel to build each one of the large facilities they have here? One of which is antiquated and in danger of being moved elsewhere?

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Intel >>>>>>>>> cubs

by far.

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 20, 2010 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

No kidding

One provides a few hundred, minimum wage service industry jobs for six weeks a year. And the other is Intel.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

No argument there

But there is a similarity here…both are monsters that must be fed constantly. Micro-electronic fabs become obsolete very quickly. So, not only do you have to have to compete against other cities to attract a company like Intel to begin with (and trust me, that makes what Mesa is doing for the Cubs look like chicken feed), but then in 10-15 years, you have to recruit them all over again.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I think 10-15 years in the electronics industry

Means rather more innovation to keep up with than 10-15 years in baseball.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

How it works

For Intel’s microelectronics business, re-tooling a Fab for the newest technology, which occurs in about 6-8 years, is basically the same as building a whole new Fab. So, for instance, when Fab 12 in Ocotillo needs to be re-tooled, it doesn’t matter much to Intel whether they re-tool Fab 12 or just build a new Fab in say, Oregon. That is why I say, you have to re-recruit them all over again.

The reasons and logic behind that are much more concrete and understandable than a baseball team being jealous because team X has flat screen TVs in their clubhouse and they don’t, but the final result is much the same. The dollars are just bigger.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

In our lifetime, we will

see the end of semiconductor manufacturing here in the US, period.

We are using incentives right now to lure Solar companies to this state. This I find odd as all get out. The sun shines here some 330 days a year, why are not our universities leading the way in solar research? Why are the innovative solar companies in Oregon and Germany?

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 20, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Or maybe not

I work in the industry and am sensitive to its ups and downs. This last down turn has been brutal, hence the gloomy outlook..
I think we will always have plants here in the US, but they may be smaller. Foundries seem to be the wave of the future.

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 20, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I do too

at least peripherally, and semiconductor mfg has always been a boom or bust industry. The last down period was really bad, but the signs are getting more positive for healthy growth in the near future.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Want to know why?

I know you are not going to like the answer, but tough. The Solar companies are where they are because of TAX INCENTIVES AND GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES. Plain and simple. Solar Power, as wonderful as it seems, is still not economically viable as a power generating technology and the only way the industry grows is if you throw TONS of money at it. The heck with a measly $100M. You are talking REAL money here.

And, BTW, I totally disagree with your forecast on semiconductor mfg. We are already starting to see some of the new construction return to the US.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

read second note

and am glad you disagree.

I think solar is a wise investment though and hence do not mind the incentives. I think, from what I see at school, we are getting a lot closer to making it a viable option than not

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 20, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

This is where I really get off track with the people

who don’t like public subsidies of private businesses. We provide tax breaks to Intel, Microchip, etc out the wahzoo. Yes, the economic benefit is much larger than it is for a ST stadium, but the subsidy is much larger also.

You got to spend money to make money. True dat.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not just a question of "making money"

There are a host of other positives to supporting, say, defense contractors, that just do not apply to the Cubs. Any attempt to draw a parallel between the two is palpable nonsense, and I trust you’re not even trying.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Right,

but cities don’t draw Intel by taxing Motorola.

Again, I can see the case for public funding, but I’d attach counter conditions:

1) It must be a shared facility and the 2 teams together must kick in half. I’d let them amortize their balances over a period of time but make them commit legally to do so. That way financing could be gotten on that chunk of the stadium.

2) Pay for it by increasing the bed tax and having a cab surcharge to Wrigleyville West.

3) Find a way to get the state’s portion without the “Cubbie tax” but with some other tax.

I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot dog.

-Some crazy Cubs fan

by Reynolds rapper on Feb 21, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

but cities don’t draw Intel by taxing Motorola.

gotta give that a thumbs up

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 21, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Seems like every argument

can be used against the Cubs tax. Why not have ticket revenues at Wrigley West finance Wrigley West? When Ricketts says he wants naming rights and various other revenues, say no.

by ol Pete on Feb 20, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Man

The way Glendale handled Camelback Ranch is awful. I’m impressed that Glendale found a way to mis-manage building a sports venue worse than they did the Coyotes arena.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 20, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

No argument there

but there is a significant point there. Even with they way both of those projects were mishandled, and the burden they have put on the residents of Glendale, they will still BOTH be good deals for Glendale in the long run.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

This really isn't fair

and it smacks of ugly parochialism. I think most people in Mesa realize that we missed out on the Cardinals stadium and many of us thought it was short-sited at the time. See below.

But, we don’t complain about having to drive to Glendale for a football game any more than hockey fans in Scottsdale complain about driving to Glendale for a Coyotes game. There actually were some complex issues involved with both scenarios that made them not as cut and dried as some now like to think.

And I really take issue with the description of Mesa as “ugly”. There are areas of east Mesa that I would put up against anything in Scottsdale in terms of scenic beauty. We have a wonderful new arts center downtown. And hopefully, in a few years we will have a beautiful new ST complex that is surrounded by a unique baseball/Cubs themed development that will be the Disneyland of baseball.

Why do you guys always have to go negative? If you look at the demographics, Mesa is no different that Phoenix. The “blue-hairs” comments are demeaning and not accurate.

The fact is, having the Cubs train here benefits everyone in this whole stinkin’ county. Scottsdale and Phoenix especially, So save your venom for something you know about. On this issue, you just sound churiish,

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

But it benefits the Cubs most of all

Having any industry in a city benefits the state. But you don’t see, say, Harkins demanding a $2 tax on all cinema tickets – including at UCI multiplexes – to fund their new Cine Capri.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

No

but Harkins certainly benefitted from the tax breaks given the developers of Arizona Mills, Tempe Marketplace and other shopping centers where they now operate movie theaters…and employ people, pay taxes, etc. etc.

Without the tax break (think subsidy), the shopping center doesn’t get built and no Cine Capri. Think Harkins would build a stand alone theater on vacant land instead? When was the last time you saw that happen?

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

If private enterprise requires public subsidy in orde to survive

It doesn’t deserve to.

These subsidies were the results of municipalities fighting to get the malls, etc. built on their side of the city boundary. The developers sat back and waited for the best offer. But malls and cinemas were built before such subsidies were introduced, and they’ll still be built now such things have been outlawed as unconstitutional.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

First of all

they have NOT been outlawed as unconstitutional at all. That is a total distortion of the Supreme Court ruling. What is outlawed, and always has been, is government “gifts” to private companies that give them a competitive advantage. Some very specific tests exist to determine what a “gift” is, and a tax break on a proposed development, in most all cases, does not meet the test.

You are also incorrect in saying that malls and cinemas were built before subsidies were introduced. Developer perks and incentives have existing since day one. They just exist in a different form now…tax breaks that are much more palatable than the under the table payments that they superceded.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

That's exactly the sort of thing which built the malls

“government "gifts" to private companies that give them a competitive advantage.” The Arizona Constitution is very clear on this:

Neither the state, nor any county, city, town, municipality, or other subdivision of the state shall ever give or loan its credit in the aid of, or make any donation or grant, by subsidy or otherwise, to any individual, association, or corporation, or become a subscriber to, or a shareholder in, any company or corporation, or become a joint owner with any person, company, or corporation

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, and because this wording

is subject to widely varying interpretations, the Court established a couple of litmus tests to be used to determine whether a particular instance is unconstitutional. The only one that is on the books now that was in dispute was CityNorth, which was a particularly egregious instance of subsidy, and the Court declined to review that case.

So, all existing deals are safe, future deals have to meet the test, and all deals, such as the ones in Mesa that have been voted on, are exempt in any case.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

But not the Cubs deal

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

A debatable point

based on what I have heard, and the fact that the Cubs are supposed to be kicking in $35M, the Cubs project may well be okay, as money being kicked in is a part of the litmus test.

The part I am still unclear about is what the Cubs are paying for, other buying the land. If it is land only, then I think they have a problem, because the Cubs will get a sweetheart deal on the land and they will immediately profit from the fact that they bought vacant land that will eventually be next door to a sizable spring training complex.

Westerncubbie says they will also pay all costs over $84M (which probably will be zero) and operations costs, which is true, but is irrelevant to whether or not they are getting an illegal subsidy, as it is after the fact.

But I do think the Cubs deal probably gets sanctioned by the fact that the residents of Mesa got a chance to vote on it.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

You can not vote

To approve something which goes against the state (or federal) constitution. The courts have proven that time and time again, striking down even ballot measures passed by huge percentages.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

No?

Ask California voters, who did exactly that on Proposition 8 in the fall.

In fact, in most cases, the vote of the people takes precedent over court rulings. You can look it up.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Not quite accurate

California was told something violated the state constitution, so the people voted to modify the constitution. If they’d just been voting on a straight bill that would enact a law, it still would have been a violation of the state constitution and, thus, invalid.

"I've never heard of a famous Phoenix hot-dog"

by kishi on Feb 20, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I did look it up

That proposition changed the constitution. And is still being challenged at this point, incidentally.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, that is kind of the point

Prop 8 changed the state constitution with wording that many feel is in conflict with the U.S. constitution. And a federal court is now deciding if that is the case or not, and if it is, if it really wants to be in the position of going against the wishes of Caifornia voters, even though the vote was close.

Courts, in general, do not like to be in the position of legislating from the bench, as that is widely frowned upon. Politicians, for their part, are predisposed to not go against the expressed wishes of the electorate. Even privately funded “think tanks” like the Goldwater Institute have to bow to public opinion, because that is who they get their funding from.

So, in our society, the vote of the people usually takes precedence. Even on constitutional amendments, which are almost always vaguely worded and subject to serious interpretation.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a chain
  1. Federal law/constitution
  2. State law/constitution
  3. Local law

Nothing can be passed at 2 which conflicts with 1. And nothing can be passed at 3 which conflicts with 1 or 2. So, saying “the Cubs deal probably gets sanctioned by the fact that the residents of Mesa got a chance to vote on it.” is flat-out wrong. If it is found to be in violation of the state constitution, it’ll be struck down, even if unanimously passed in Mesa. Just like, if Prop 8 is found to violate the US constitution, it’ll be struck down too.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a lot of ifs

and the striking down has to be done by judges who are very reluctant to go against the wishes of voters. The same sex bans are a good example. It would be hard to argue that they don’t violate the constitutional rights of gays to the pursuit of happiness, but courts are for the most part being very cautious.

It is nowhere near as cut and dried as you indicate.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Ifs? No question

But that’s a far cry from "the Cubs deal probably gets sanctioned by the fact that the residents of Mesa got a chance to vote on it."

That also only provides a minority of the funding for the site.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Vote

the only reason there will be a vote in Mesa, is because of a dumb proposition that was passed that says there has to be a vote if the city wants to spend more than $1.5M on a public funded project.

It was an ill-conceived proposition from the get-go that hamstrings the city in being able to conduct normal city business. If they want to build a park, if it costs more than $1.5M, there has to be a vote. Stupid.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Undoubtedly a reaction

To ill-conceived wastes of public money in the past.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Feb 20, 2010 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Which also prevents them

from doing things like reacting quickly to favorable bond rates to fund necessary public projects…like a fire station, library, etc.

Just plain dumb.

by azjazzman on Feb 20, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree there.

Phoenix had something like that voted in a while ago. Led by a bunch on NIMFBYer’s over what was to become the Cricket Pavilion. It was suppose to go in far NE Phoenix.
It has hurt Phoenix though on other worthwhile projects, imo.

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 20, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

bunch OF*

Du hast mich gefragt und ich hab nichts gesagt

by unnamedDBacksfan on Feb 20, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Judges say they are against legislating

and do it constantly. The current supreme court loves legislating.

by ol Pete on Feb 20, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

nooooo

vote of the people is irrelevant if a court rules against it.

by ol Pete on Feb 20, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

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