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Surplus Value and Mark Reynolds

I've been meaning to write an article about surplus value for a while now, and thought that with the Mark Reynolds trade, now was as good a time as any. I think the concept of surplus value is a really interesting one, and for me personally, it gave me a much more effective understanding and evaluation of trades and free agent signings. For those readers who have a better grasp of economics than I do, please feel free to expand upon what I have written.

Star-divide

What really sparked my desire to write this post was the discussion of our offseason moves. After Mark Reynolds was traded to the Orioles, one common line of thought I often read in the threads was "I will wait to evaluate this trade until I see what Kevin Towers does with the money we saved." I think this statement represents a misconception that a lot of baseball fans have towards trades and signings.

The first concept I want to put forth is that money intrinsically has no value. The "value" we place in money lies in its ability to obtain the commodities we want. When it comes to baseball, there really is only one commodity we care about: wins. Basically, at the end of the day, every baseball fan should hope for his or her team to have enough money to buy enough wins to make the playoffs. Unless you're a Yankees fan, at which point you substitute the phrase "win the World Series" for "make the playoffs."

Okay, that seems intuitive enough. We care about wins, and we know that we need money to buy wins. But what does this have to do with Mark Reynolds? The point is that once you draw this conclusion, the only reasonable extrapolation is that trading Reynolds doesn't save money, it costs money, or perhaps more relevantly, it costs wins that we will need to use money to replace. In other words, when we traded Mark Reynolds and knew we were going to replace him with free agents, we knew we had lost value (read: lost wins), value that we would need replaced. That's why we didn't just trade Reynolds for nothing. We traded him for relievers (insert joke here).

If money is only useful in the sense that it buys wins, that seems to presume that we can try to price the cost of wins. Otherwise, this concept is pretty much useless. And in actuality, this is what every fan does. Some do it consciously, others do it subconsciously. Some people take strikeouts, divide it by a hundred, and put a negative sign in front of it, and think that's how many wins a player cost his team. Other people at Fangraphs use esoteric terms such as wOBA and UZR to try to figure out what a player is worth in wins, and then calculate the market price of wins from there. Regardless of the method, each and every fan looks at a player, and assigns a market value to that player.

As I'm rather fond of esoteric things, I tend to use Fangraphs WAR when trying to figure out the value of a player. Reynolds costs $5 million this next year and $8 million in 2012, and a $0.5 million buyout in 2013. Let's assume we don't pick up his 2013 option (highly likely, since Borchering or Davidson will be ready by then). Conservatively, and I think there are some at the 'Pit that have much higher valuations of Reynolds (I'm looking at you IHSB and paqs), Reynolds should be good for 3 WAR next year and 2.5 WAR the year after (0.5 WAR deduction for aging). Going by a price of $5 million per WAR in 2011, and 7% baseball inflation, that would mean Reynolds would be worth, over the next two years, a total of around $28.5 million. That extra $15 million that we gave up, is what sabermetricians call surplus value.

That is the value we lost. So did we make it up in the relievers we got back? Well, our relievers basically have to combine for 3 WAR within the next two years (for david hernandez) or next three years (for kam mickolio) while they are still earning minimum wage. That's not taking into account their first arbitration year, though by the time relievers get to their second arbitration year, they are oftentimes already making their market value. However, 3 WAR between two relievers over the course of two or three years, while not easy, is definitely more than possible.

The problem is, the trade gets complicated by some factors. For one, my estimate of Reynolds value is definitely along the conservative side. Reynolds could conceivably hit 4 and 3.5 WAR respectively in the next two years, which would be another $10 million in surplus value. That would mean our relievers would need to get 5 WAR instead of 3 WAR. Moreover, there's added value to accumulating surplus value in one person and also in one year. Accumulating it in one position, means there are more positions with potential WAR to fill on the roster. And of course, accumulating it in one year means you have a better shot at reaching enough wins for a playoff spot. On the flip side, there is sort of a reverse discount factor at work, as surplus value in 2011 is worth less to the Diamondbacks as opposed to surplus value in 2012 and 2013, when the team has a better shot at competing.

All in all, after these various adjustments (which I have no objective method for calculating), I would say that the Reynolds trade should be considered decent. We didn't come out huge winners. We didn't come out huge losers. We basically broke even.

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Good analysis

But we still don’t know who “Player To Be Named Later” is, right? I have a feeling that it’s probably Brandon Allen…

If it is Allen, I think Baltimore clearly gets the edge in this trade (actually, I think that already regardless of who the PTBNL is).

I'll eat up all your crackers and your licorice...

by NotGuilty on Dec 13, 2010 1:50 PM EST reply actions  

It's definitely not Allen

I know I actually once threw out this idea, but looking back it was highly unlikely from the start. It could be a 2010 draftee (hence why it’s taking so long, even post-Rule-5, to announce), or someone like Cole Gillespie.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 13, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno, I think Allen would make a lot sense

It just doesn’t seem like he has a future on this team from what I’ve heard, the Orioles need a first baseman, and it could be that we’re waiting to sign someone to play left field before it gets done. If it was someone Rule 5 eligible, wouldn’t it have been announced by now? And if not, why the hold-up?

It could definitely be someone from the 2010 draft too, I guess, but I don’t know all of the rules when it comes to this stuff. Doesn’t the player to be named later have to be dealt by six months after the trade? Would someone from the 2010 draft even be tradeable by then?

I'll eat up all your crackers and your licorice...

by NotGuilty on Dec 13, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

The draft was June 7-9

If you have an immediate sign… it could work? Yeah, it’s a long-shot, but we had some quick-signing guys. Similarly, what would be the hold up on Allen? If they’d decided it was him, it wouldn’t matter what future moves we make. If that’s the agreed-upon deal, then it has to go down that way.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 13, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Could be

that Allen is seen as the worst-case scenario starter in left field if we don’t sign someone else, so we’re hanging on to him as the fall-back option until that happens before finalizing the deal?

It’s PTBNL or cash considerations, so if they have to keep Allen the Orioles just get money instead…

I'll eat up all your crackers and your licorice...

by NotGuilty on Dec 13, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I think

I think that the end result of the trade is already known. There’s just a reason they’re not announcing it, and future decisions aren’t going to be based off of having a choice between giving Baltimore a player or cash. But I have no idea, really. I’d have imagined it would have been announced by now if it was a Rule 5 eligible guy…

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 13, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps

But if so, it’s an extremely quick-signing one. The draft finished on June 9, and players can’t be dealt until a year after they’re signed. When did this trade officially go down? You must name the PTBNL six months after the trade is finalized, so the player must have sighed no later than six months before the date of the trade.

At least it isn’t Ty Linton.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 15, 2010 7:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Interesting

I can’t think of another reason why the player isn’t named yet though.

by paqs on Dec 15, 2010 7:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Wouldn't work, then

If it’s six months to the day- trade went down December 6th, so six months later is still three days before the one year deadline.

"I'm a very dangerous fellow when I don't know what I'm doing."

by kishi on Dec 15, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Impossible. Far too much.

Could be some other, lesser Latin American guy though.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 15, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Welp, that's certainly confusing.

Is the Pirates’ 40-man roster full?

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 15, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

What do the Pirates have to do with this?

Unless you meant the Orioles’ 40 man roster, which isn’t full.

I still think it’s Allen. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what happens though…

I'll eat up all your crackers and your licorice...

by NotGuilty on Dec 16, 2010 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

That is what I meant

And there goes that idea.

The only thing I can think of now is that the O’s have until a certain date to pick from a list of agreed-upon players? Is that possible?

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 16, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Awesome Post

I’ll say this though – WAR is not the only means with which relievers, or any player for that matter, can be evaluated. The best example is, of course, the D-backs ‘pen of 2010 and the stat WPA (Win Percentage Added). This takes into consideration situational factors that may have led to the runs scored against us being particularly deadly in our efforts to win games. Our ’pen last year had a combined WPA of -8.37, and since, of course, each team technically starts the game with a 50% chance of winning, that means that our pen cost us over 16 games in 2010. WAR is certainly a nice, fancy stat, but WPA shows us just how devastating our ’pen was last year, despite having a combined WAR that, while gruesome, wasn’t THAT gruesome.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 13, 2010 1:58 PM EST reply actions  

i agree

actually, that’s why i think bullpen is underrated by WAR.

because of leverage, a bad bullpen is always going to substantially cost you more (in terms of real life wins) than in WAR. however, a good bullpen doesn’t necessarily earn you more (in terms of real life wins) than in WAR.

by blue bulldog on Dec 13, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions  

no

fangraphs WAR actually refuses to use leverage, because they seek context-neutral evaluation of hitting, pitching, and defense separately

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pitcher-win-values-explained-part-two

by blue bulldog on Dec 14, 2010 2:58 AM EST up reply actions  

What that link says

Is that pitchers aren’t judged by situation performance in terms of runners on base and sequencing. Hence, FIP.

I’m just going over Fangraphs stats to see if I can demonstrate. Take for example, the Rays.

Soriano had a 2.81 FIP in 62 IP and Benoit had a 2.41 FIP in 60 IP. That’s an 0.4 difference per 9, or 2.6 runs overall. So without leverage adjustments you’d expect Benoit’s WAR to be .25 higher.

Soriano is actually .1 higher because he’s a closer and Benoit is a setup guy. If Benoit had put up those same numbers as a mop up guy, his WAR would have been even lower.

by paqs on Dec 14, 2010 4:58 AM EST up reply actions  

sorry you are correct

i read up some more on how fangraphs calculates WAR for relievers and they do use leverage.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/4/29/856308/bullpen-chaining-and-reliever-war

however, that basically just means that one of hernandez/mickolio needs to one day become our closer. if one of them is actually our closer (and i mean, that usually implicitly assumes they are being successful as our closer, since unsuccessful closers get replaced pretty quickly….) then they would get the surplus value we traded away in reynolds fairly easily

by blue bulldog on Dec 14, 2010 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

or just generate

a combined 3 WAR in the next three years through being setup

closer quality just means they get that WAR a lot easier

by blue bulldog on Dec 14, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

If Putz and Gutierrez pitch well

And hold the 8th and 9th inning, it would be harder for the other guys to accumulate WAR.

But who cares? As long as Hernandez and Mickolio pitch well for us, I’m happy.

by paqs on Dec 15, 2010 2:53 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

Except I see no way that Gutierrez holds onto the eighth inning job over Hernandez. Hernandez is a dramatically superior reliever.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 15, 2010 7:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

But David Hernandez the reliever has an extremely small sample, only 37 IP.

This should be fun:

Pitcher A: 37 IP, 3.16 ERA, 43:13 BB/K, 4 HR, .319 BABIP (23% LD) , 36% GB,
Pitcher B: 37.1 IP, 2.41, 29:13 BB/K, 3 HR, .257 BABIP (17% LD), 66% GB

A is Hernandez after he moved to the pen May 28th, B is Gutierrez after he stopped sucking June 10th. Before that, Gutierrez was terrible in our pen (after a decent but unsustainable first season) and Hernandez was a terrible starter (28:27 BB/K in 8 starts to begin the year, after an equally awful 100 IP starting in ’09).

What does that tell us? No. 1, mostly nothing (small sample size). But let’s try anyway.

Hernandez has vastly better strikeout numbers, control and homers are about the same, Gutierrez kept his BABIP down and got twice as many grounders.

A couple of important things to note as well:

Hernandez faced 20 inherited batters and 10 scored. That’s terrible. Gutierrez faced 13 and 2 scored.

Hernandez pitched in lower leverage situations (aLI 1.3 vs 1.5).

Looking at WPA, Gutierrez was a fantastic 2.01 (2 wins above average), while Hernandez was -0.52

Who’s better? I don’t know. If they sustain these numbers long term, I’d go with Gutierrez, but we have no idea.

by paqs on Dec 15, 2010 8:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Oy

I’d say “well played,” or something cute like that, but anytime the phrase “after he stopped sucking” is involved, I just can’t.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 15, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure

But there’s also a difference between only having a 37-inning sample, and cherrypicking a 37-inning sample from a larger sample of mediocrity.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 16, 2010 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not exactly cherry picking

It’s the same sample for both of them chronologically.

by paqs on Dec 16, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

The samples left behind

For each player are dramatically different. There’s a bit of cherry-picking in there.

I’ll take the 5.00 xFIP in 41 games including eight starts over the 4.90 xFIP in 58 games and no starts.

If you use FIP, it looks even better for Hernandez.

Man, those are some ugly overall numbers. Thank goodness they looked really down down the stretch, because it wasn’t pretty early on…

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 16, 2010 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Good.

Blah.
English.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 17, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Just a thought. . .

Hernandez pitched in the AL East, which is not a walk in the park. One of the most dominating game I saw from a pitcher came against the Nats. Hernandez came in with 1 out and 2 runners in scoring position. Willingham came to bat and whiffed at 3 straight fastball as at 96mph. Then up next came Bernardino and he saw 3 straight fastballs and whiffed at 2 and k’d looking on the 3rd. 6 fastballs, 2 K’s end of inning. I believe Hernandez is in the right situation with the D’Backs pitching in the NL West. The Orioles had projected Hernandez as a closer in the future and was reluctant to trade him. Hernandez K/9 triple when he became a reliever and I believe he will become a fan favorite.

by Baseballdad on Dec 17, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

PS

I’ve been a Oriole fan for while and I hated to see go!!!

by Baseballdad on Dec 17, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

We hope so.

"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8

by njjohn on Dec 18, 2010 12:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree

I saw that game on MASN and it was down right impressive. I really believe he will end up being D’Backs closer sooner than later. With men on base they .201 and when they’re in scoring position .217. Left handed batters .198. I believe that Hernandez was the most sought after pitcher in the Orioles organization and they didn’t want to give them up but they need a 3B and the D’Backs saw something more than a set-up guy.

by egboyz on Dec 18, 2010 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Really? Over Matusz? Britton? Tillman?

"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8

by njjohn on Dec 18, 2010 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, Matusz and Britton are

Tillman just looks like a mechanical nightmare.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 18, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I thought

you were pretty high on Tillman?

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I like the idea of getting a starter

But since the deal went down I haven’t heard many glowing reviews about Tillman like I have about Hernandez.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 20, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Really

Matusz wasn’t going anywhere and Britton too far a long, which I mean no help today. Tillman has issues, lost his velocity, 2nd and 3rd pitches nonexistent.

by orioole26 on Dec 18, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

While true,

remember that pitching at Chase isn’t exactly a cakewalk either, though.

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Dec 18, 2010 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Pitching in Camden

was either, Yankee Stadium, Fenway and Toronto for that matter. You have Dodger Stadium, AT&T park, Petco all pretty friendly parks if you ask me. Don’t get me wrong they’re all ML hitters but if I had a choice I’m pitching in the NL West!!

by orioole26 on Dec 18, 2010 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

meant to say Camden, etc wasn’t either

by orioole26 on Dec 18, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Petco, certainly.

Dodger Stadium and AT&T less so, depending on whose numbers you’re using. But Chase and Coors are consistently #2 and #1 for park factors, though.

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Well then,

it really depends on how much you trust fWAR’s valuation system, doesn’t it?

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

For pitchers

I’d go with it, yeah.

by paqs on Dec 16, 2010 3:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I probably would too,

but it depends on whether we’re going with past performance or future impact.

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Dec 18, 2010 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

My brain normally fogs over for this kind of thing

but this was an interesting post.

From the Diamondbacks trades so far I don’t think that the FO is pushing for the playoffs next season but hoping to positioning themselves for 2012, which makes any kind of evaluation even more difficult as so many things can happen to any athlete in that amount of time.

That’s why I find talk of surplus value in 2012 and 2013 to be less reassuring than maybe I should.

"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, and disregard of all the rules."- George Orwell

by Arizona via Slough on Dec 13, 2010 2:29 PM EST reply actions  

Not all wins created equal

That was something mentioned, but which I think bears stressing a bit more. Reynolds’ five wins (say) in 2011 might make the difference between us winning 75 games and 80 – but it’ll still be a losing team. However, if five wins in 2012 make the difference between 85 and 90, and perhaps the difference between playoffs and not, then those five wins are a lot more valuable. Those are the wins that are the most important.

"I don't wanna sit around watching you 'give it your best.' Either stop sucking or get out of the way."

by Jim McLennan on Dec 13, 2010 3:41 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

sorry

it was a little bit hidden there.

surplus value = the value you get from the player beyond that which you pay him. so if a player’s on-field/off-field value to you as a fan/GM is worth $8 million, and you pay him $8 million in salary this year, then he has generated zero surplus value for you

by blue bulldog on Dec 13, 2010 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I tend to just go for "cost versus comparable player".

which would have meant that I probably wouldn’t have gotten enough for Reynolds and he wouldn’t have moved. However, there was no IMMEDIATE need to move him so they should have taken the Upton approach.

BTW do we know who is on the PTBNL list?

No Julio Franco, no peace.

by Reynolds rapper on Dec 13, 2010 5:28 PM EST reply actions  

this is actually a method that makes a lot of sense

cost versus comparable player. i think the problem is, how exactly you find the comparable player.

basically sabermetricians try to find one unit to comparable players, and that unit is WAR. so, a 4 WAR position player is comparable to any other 4 WAR position player, regardless of whether the first player got most of his WAR from being amazing at taking walks, or the second player got most of his WAR from hitting a ton of home runs

it gets a lot more complicated when you try to compare position players to pitchers, as frankly, sabermetrics hasn’t gotten to the point where i trust that a 4 WAR position player is comparable to a 4 WAR pitcher

by blue bulldog on Dec 13, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you use agent measures

because that’s his value to the other GM’s. I know that basically makes Reynolds unmovable in the short term but there really wasn’t a hurry. Now we know what he is worth per annum, the Pena deal is probably going to end up being the most similar, all things considered.

If you don’t get someone who has a HR/RBI SV type stat, you probably are underpaying.

Another good baseline was Uggla for Infante.

Probably if you use those baselines, he becomes harder to move (especially because the Orioles were the only serious suitor) but I thought the quick move was a sop to the AZCentral crowd.

No Julio Franco, no peace.

by Reynolds rapper on Dec 14, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I know HR and RBI are very

pedestrian stats around here but my point is that we are not computing OBJECTIVE value as a baseball player but PERCEIVED value.

No Julio Franco, no peace.

by Reynolds rapper on Dec 14, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I heard that it came down to the

fact that KT had a coupon with an expiration date on it, but he got snookered when he found out it was only good for National League trades…..

I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused....

by piratedan7 on Dec 13, 2010 6:26 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Ouch.

No he thinks Chase has magical powers to increase our HR numbers and decrease theirs.

It’s weird that someone can both be overvaluing and undervaluing BP effect at the same time.

No Julio Franco, no peace.

by Reynolds rapper on Dec 13, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I was

thinking about that, too.

“Hitters with even average power can hit HRs at Chase”. Yeah, that’s true. But guys who hit 28, 44, and 32 HRs AREN’T guys with ‘average power’.

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Not far off it

44, I grant you – but we hit 180 HR last year, so that’s about 23 HR per position. Just ask Kelly Johnson: career prior to 2010, 15 HR per 162 games, and certainly qualifies as a “guy with average power”. In 2010: 27 per 162 games.

"I don't wanna sit around watching you 'give it your best.' Either stop sucking or get out of the way."

by Jim McLennan on Dec 15, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

*26,

but he’s the outlier, and he had a breakout year. Of the other two guys on the roster with over 17 HRs, CY has always had mad power, and LaRoche hits 20+ HRs every year.

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

26 in 150 games = 27 in 162

Anyway, you need to look at people who played elsewhere, then came to Arizona. You can’t really tell much from CY, since he has always played here. Look at someone like Orlando Hudson:

Outside AZ (2002-05, 2009-10): 11 HR per 162
In AZ (2006-08) 14 HR per 162

or Eric Byrnes, who played almost the same number of games for Oakland and Arizona (442-439), but hit homers at about a 35% better clip, even though he didn’t play for us until he was in his thirties.

"I don't wanna sit around watching you 'give it your best.' Either stop sucking or get out of the way."

by Jim McLennan on Dec 15, 2010 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

or just look at park factor

which says people hit home runs at a 5% rate higher than league average…

by blue bulldog on Dec 15, 2010 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Which says

that, over the past 3 years, Mark hits 27, 42, and 30 HRs. Not exactly “average” power.

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Dec 18, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

"CY has always had mad power"

CY has always had good power at Chase Field and dramatic home/road splits.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 16, 2010 9:18 AM EST up reply actions  

He's always

been predicted to have plus power, though, is what I meant — all the way thru the minors. Obviously, we haven’t seen him w/o Chase as his home field.

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Dec 18, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Home/Road splits provide a little insight on that

It’s true that all players have some sort of home/road split and that perhaps CY is just going to have exaggerated splits of that sort wherever he is because of some strange comfort in playing in his home park, but it’s a bit frightening how pronounced it has been.

Dom Mazzetti vs. Four Loko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxF6R4FXTI (Warning: Language NSFW)
"ENERGY BEEYUH!" "I can't wait to eat Chipotle latuh." "They removed us from the club." "I fed my fat friend a lot of cake." "I just lightly punched it until it died."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 18, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

After a mad April

Johnson hit homers at about an average rate.

by paqs on Dec 16, 2010 3:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh?

Well, now that Augie’s gone, he should hit homers at a higher rate, yes? ;-)

Mr. Science Boy

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I lol'd

Bad doormat! No stock options!

by Clefo on Dec 20, 2010 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

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