D-Backs-Dodgers deal hits snag
What they did not know - and what the Diamondbacks believe they had no way of knowing, according to sources - was that Abreu and the Dodgers were nearing a settlement on a grievance filed in 2007 that would award him extra days of service time and could make him arbitration eligible in 2011 instead of 2012. .......................................
It's unclear what action the Diamondbacks will take at this point, as Garland already has pitched for the Dodgers. Teams can file grievances with Major League Baseball over disputed trades.
The sides agreed to a list of possible players to complete the deal, and the Diamondbacks could ask the Dodgers to amend the list in order to receive a player other than Abreu. Or the Diamondbacks could ask for cash to compensate for the difference in salary Abreu will earn during his arbitration seasons.
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unnamedDBacksfan
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That's sort of awesome
“Dodgers were nearing a settlement on a grievance filed in 2007 that would award him extra days of service time and could make him arbitration eligible in 2011 instead of 2012.”
Can someone explain that? I’m sort of new to this whole… non-spectator baseball thing…
Warning: the above represents the thoughts and opinions of a 15-year-old.
by Wailord on Sep 5, 2009 11:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok
Normally, a player is eligible for arbitration after three years of service time and goes to arb three times before hitting free agency. However, there is a group called “Super Twos”. They come from the group of players with 2-3 years service time, and at least 86 days the previous year. The 17% of those players with the most service time become Super Twos, and go to arbitration four times, instead of the usual three. So, if you’re a super two, you get league minimum for two years, and four years of arbitration, rather than three of each as for a normal player.
Days spent on the disabled list count towards service time, but if a player is optioned to the minors, his service time clock ‘stops’ until he is recalled. The issue here is 47 days in 2007, when Abreu was optioned to the minors; he’s saying he had an injury and this should have been counted as a DL stint – therefore going on to his service time. If upheld, it could well push him in to being a super two, meaning instead of paying him league minimum, he’s eligible for arbitration and more money. For which the Diamondbacks are now on the hook.
That’s it in simplified form. Hope it makes sense, if not, ask away!
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Sep 5, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So....
I am new to this also…
So, we are paying for Garland, and even more than we “wanted” with Abreu?
by ZonaBacks10 on Sep 5, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
If he is a super two, he would go to arbitration an extra year more than we thought when we traded for him. The difference could be a couple of million dollars.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Sep 6, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a fool,
so could you explain how he would be a Super Two? AFAIK, a Super Two player must “rank in the top seventeen percent in total service in the class of Players who have at least two but less than three years of Major League service.”. He hasn’t been up to the majors that much lately. Or am I missing something?
In play, out(s)
by dima1109 on Sep 6, 2009 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe the issue
Is that since he’s going to be a member of the D-Backs in 2010, that would be another full year of service, and the ‘07 year already is counting as service time, so there’s ‘07, a skip of ’08, ’09 in the minors, and ’10 in the big leagues. So there’s two years. Then it’s a matter of how much time he’s spent in the majors, and if that extra 47 days come into play and he becomes a Super Two, then he is eligible for arbitration after 2010.
This will get resolved by the Dodgers giving us more money. It has to, they have no other option. If we take a different player, it will be one better than Abreu, and they don’t want that, and we’re not just going to pay even more money because the Dodgers tried to cheat the system and got busted by Abreu. It’s not like we have less control over him as an organization or anything. My biggest concern really is how much higher his arbitration costs will be in the three years following than what they’d be without that first year of arbitration to raise his salary and allow him to ask for even more in the subsequent off-seasons. I sense an extension in the books if he plays up to standards next season.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are considering
his future performance to be up to his projected level, correct? Because if he underperforms at the big league level, arbitration wouldn’t matter so much, he won’t get a big payday anyway.
On the other hand, if he does perform well, arbitration will come sooner, so the Dbacks would have to pay up more total cash. Now I get it :) for some reason I thought the Super Two status implied either continuous presence in MLB or service time over the last two calendar years.
In play, out(s)
by dima1109 on Sep 6, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not whether or not he performs well
But if he sticks on the major-league roster. And yeah we’d have to pay more total cash regardless if he can stick.
And yeah, it’s a muddled and confusing rule.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know I can look it up
But I have a feeling I’d get confused, plus you welcomed clarification… what exactly is arbitration? I’ve never understood salaries.
Warning: the above represents the thoughts and opinions of a 15-year-old.
by Wailord on Sep 5, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arbitration
First three years of service time, a team can pay a player what it wants, subject to league minimum, around $400K. After three years, a player and his team negotiate with each other to come to an agreement – the player can only play for that team at this point, so they can’t go elsewhere.
However, if the two can’t come to agreement, they go to an arbitration tribunal. Each side makes their case and gives the figure they put forward. An independent judge looks at the evidence, stats, etc. and will then pick either the club’s figure or the player as being fairer – he can’t split the difference, it has to be one or the other. In most cases, an agreement is reached between the parties before it goes that far; I think there’s only been a handful of D-backs players in team history to go to the tribunal.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Sep 6, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You make things easy to understand..
Thank you, sir!
Well this sucks. lol
by ZonaBacks10 on Sep 6, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Josh Byrnes, IIRC
Has not had a single player reach arbitration.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sooo....
Is this a good thing for us or no? I’m confused. Lol.
by CaptainCanuck on Sep 6, 2009 3:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not awesome.
It’s a bad thing.
"In the future, I want to be a fossil. Or, at least have my feces be fossilized"
-Pygalgia
by DbacksSkins on Sep 6, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know it's a bad thing
But the whole situation just sounds funny because it’s sort of ridiculous that it would happen in the first place.
Warning: the above represents the thoughts and opinions of a 15-year-old.
by Wailord on Sep 6, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which part?
The fact that the Dbacks wouldn’t know that?
"In the future, I want to be a fossil. Or, at least have my feces be fossilized"
-Pygalgia
by DbacksSkins on Sep 6, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or that it wasn't disclosed at all
Warning: the above represents the thoughts and opinions of a 15-year-old.
by Wailord on Sep 6, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh
Great.
"I can't accept and won't concede that this is who we are..."
by kishi on Sep 5, 2009 11:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’ll see your “oh Great” and raise you a big “Le Sigh”
"If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe!"
by unnamedDBacksfan on Sep 5, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Dbacks had no way of knowing this...
Why should we get penalized for the dodgers screw up? I can never have too much hatred for the damn dodgers…
by ZonaBacks10 on Sep 6, 2009 12:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we're saying they screwed up
I think that we believe (?) that they acted with bad intentions.
Warning: the above represents the thoughts and opinions of a 15-year-old.
by Wailord on Sep 6, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well based on what is being said in the thread
it would seem that the Dodgers are the black hats here, because if they felt that the dispute was an internal matter and refused to share the information with the D’Backs, that would essentially be dealing in bad faith and a misrepresentation of what the D’Backs were being offered based on the player eligibility rules. The D’Backs would have no way of knowing about the internal dispute unless the Dodgers organization or the players agent came forth and if the agent came forth, then they could leave themselves open to a tampering charge I think couldn’t they?
This means that the Dodgers played a fast one on the Dbacks and so they get the dirty end of the stick both ways, being on the hook for Garlands salary and then having to pick up the tab on Abreu’s check earlier. I wonder if they have any recourse within the noble organization of MLB to demand an additional prospect or a different prospect or even cash back to make it right. Anyone else know?
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused....
by piratedan7 on Sep 6, 2009 1:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's like on the job training
for JB. D’Backs need experienced management people in the front office to make wise decisions, rather than having to always rely on nebulous future considerations. The old adage, “A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush” seems to have been something the management didn’t learn in business school.
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 1:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I know all this business side of baseball is new to me...
But i don’t know if I could blame our front office for this as much as blaming the dodgers. If we had know way of knowing bout this, I would have a tough time putting this on Dbacks management. On the flipside, if the dodgers did this knowingly.. damn them… damn them all. lol
by ZonaBacks10 on Sep 6, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You really
don’t have any idea what you’re talking about, do you? Or would you rather the Dbacks just throw money at aging free agents, like Jerry Colangelo would?
"In the future, I want to be a fossil. Or, at least have my feces be fossilized"
-Pygalgia
by DbacksSkins on Sep 6, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it a sport or a business?
Apparently, the D’backs’ management don’t know what they’re doing either, do they? Oh, and didn’t Colangelo and his free spending ways win a World Series? Silly me.
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, but that 2001 season has
crippled us ever since.
"If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe!"
by unnamedDBacksfan on Sep 6, 2009 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me try and understand this. . .
You’re saying that winning the World Series was a bad thing?
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
That’s not at all what he’s saying. That’s not even close. He’s saying that the way we sacrificed our finances to win that World Series and then had our owner bail on us because the team was bankrupt has screwed us over since and forced to be a hauntingly low-budget operation.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bingo!
thanks
"If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe!"
by unnamedDBacksfan on Sep 6, 2009 3:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that's the official story
to be sure.
Yes, it is a hauntingly low-budget operation, one that clearly needs a significant influx of capital and perhaps a new culture of winning to bring it back up to where it should be.
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh
This debate is futile from both sides. You blame the low-budget on the new ownership, I blame it on two different head-figures of old ownership (Moorad/Colangelo). To each his own.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know whose free spending really wins world series?
Yankees and Red Sox. The problem is – those two operate in MASSIVE markets with millions of fans. A mid-market team like the Dbacks would never be able to sustain such spending pace. Colangelo’s plan was like buying a Ferrari with a dozen credit cards. Yes, you get to pimp out in a sweet ride and enjoy your life for a while, but once the bill comes, the ride isn’t so sweet after all. Wild spending for the sake of quick satisfaction is not worth the financial burden that would haunt the organization for the next ten years.
In play, out(s)
by dima1109 on Sep 6, 2009 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What you're missing
may be a subtle quibble, but I get the sense (and by the way, Boston is much smaller population-wise than Phoenix), that the ownership/management of franchises like Boston and the Yankees are truly dedicated to putting a competitive team out on the field. The effort to produce a quality, competitive team breeds true loyalty, puts fannies in the seats, and encourages people to invest in the team by buying season tickets.
The D’Backs’ have made some good deals, too. Dan Haren anyone? That was JB’s, wasn’t it? At any rate, it made sense to go out and get a front line all star pitcher with a competitive streak a mile wide. That’s the direction, not giving up starting pitchers for the odd PTBNL.
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have to recognize
When you want to build up your team for the present by trading six top prospects for a Dan Haren, and when you want to rebuild for the future by trading short-term contract guys like Flip Lopez, Rauch, and Garland for prospects that you have control of for a lot of years. You can’t be constantly trying to acquire players to make you better for the present, because then you end up like the Royals or the post-World-Series White Sox, who are just now finally breaking up their old, decrepit core.
And Boston may be smaller population-wise, but they have a higher demand for baseball games. It’s the history. I know you’re not saying that we should have that kind of market, but bringing up that population statistic is really kind of pointless.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And as a population quibble
Although the city of Boston is smaller than Phoenix, the metropolitan area population is actually larger than the Valley, and furthermore, they’re all rabid Red Sox fans, unlike in Phoenix where you have lots of transplants and it seems like you have more Cubs fans than D-Backs fans sometimes.
Brewers Baseball and other assorted nonsense (mostly the assorted nonsense) at my blog, What's a Tararrel?
by Lefti on Sep 6, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they have rabies, perhaps they should look elsewhere. . .
But seriously, so what? Sell me. Make me believe that the local hometown nine is where I want to put my ticket money.
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you don't see that the moves the organization is making will help long-term
Then don’t get tickets. But within four years when we’re back in the thick of things, you’re welcome to hop back on the bandwagon.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are
the top 2 teams in spending over the past few seasons, and even with all that, they have all of 2 WS wins to show for it post-2000.
Just ask the Mets how well unbridled spending works. Or the eternally “in-contention” Astros.
"In the future, I want to be a fossil. Or, at least have my feces be fossilized"
-Pygalgia
by DbacksSkins on Sep 6, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "nebulous future considerations" you speak of
occupied Colangelo’s mind oh so very much during his tyranny here. He was a business genius, no doubt. No wonder he ran out of town – no executive wants to deal with the gigantic money trail he left behind after signing juiced-up veterans to bring in a fake championship. Would you rather see that? Want the old (mis)management back? Spend now, figure out how to pay later? Did you vote for Obama by any chance?
Whew!
In play, out(s)
by dima1109 on Sep 6, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
For the Obama bash. I always love a good Obama bash.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
probably not the best idea to bring politics into it. People get sensitive. But still +1.
Go DBacks!
by AJforAZ on Sep 6, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't it a liberal thing
to want government to intervene when one makes stupid choices? Like in this, trading a starting pitcher for some unnamed nebulous PTBNL, and then hoping that King Bud Selig, or the mighty czars of whomever will bail out the D’Back management from this mess? Sounds pretty liberal to me.
There’s your politics.
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or alternatively
It’s a liberal thing to expect some degree of recompense and action by those in power, when someone swindles or cheats you…
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Sep 6, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah,
it must be a liberal thing to expect a governing body accountable to the governed.
"In the future, I want to be a fossil. Or, at least have my feces be fossilized"
-Pygalgia
by DbacksSkins on Sep 6, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's NOT
an “unnamed nebulous PTBNL”. You don’t seem to understand. The Dbacks and Dodgers KNOW who the player is, but the player can’t officially be named yet because of MLB’s waiver rules.
The Dbacks did NOT trade Jon Garland and simply “expect” the Dodgers to be fair and give them a good player. They traded Garland FOR a particular player. The catch is, the player can’t publicly be identified.
You keep saying that another month of Jon Garland, in a season in which the Dbacks aren’t contending, is worth more than trading for someone who will help us for the next 6 years. I’m guessing you’re not a big fan of investing some money now for your future later, either? What annual percentage yield are your life savings generating in your mattress?
"In the future, I want to be a fossil. Or, at least have my feces be fossilized"
-Pygalgia
by DbacksSkins on Sep 6, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully
Having someone who isn’t me saying this will help.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ummm, not to interrupt
But it’s not like the PTBNL was unknown. He just couldn’t get dealt because of waiver trade deadline rules, and apparently couldn’t get Abreu to pass through waivers unclaimed. These ghastly “nebulous future considerations” just got us a fifth starter for next season’s rotation.
Point to one trade that Josh Byrnes has made where you can make a definitive, obvious argument that JB got fleeced and didn’t have every reason to make the deal. And yes, I’m daring you to say the Carlos Quentin trade.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And who is that fifth starter?
Has there been an update?
When I first signed into the Snakepit, I made it clear that the D’Backs seemed more interested in marketing than putting a front line competitive team out on the field, and thus far guys, I really haven’t seen much to change my opinion. And it’s my opinion, I really don’t care if nobody else shares it.
But there are some basic old school trade rules that every armchair GM knows:
1) One NEVER makes a deal with a division rival.
2) One NEVER trades a starting pitcher for a position player.
3) And one NEVER trades a starting pitcher for a position player with a division rival.
Yes, I’ve heard Derrick Hall talk about how there was no chance Garland was going to sign or be signed for a longer contract, but that’s no excuse for giving the Dodgers a pitcher with the potential to win 15 games annually for a number of years to come, unless the D’Backs really didn’t think they would be competitive with the Dodgers.
As far as the Quentin deal is concerned, who knew? He didn’t really display much in the way of flashes of brilliance when he was here.
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 2:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That fifth starter
Was Kevin Mulvey. From the Twins. For Jon Rauch. Who was a PTBNL.
You can take circumstances like that into account, but you forgot the most important rule of all: NEVER do you let circumstances like these prevent you from making a trade to make your team better.
Jon Garland win 15 games annually? If you believe that, I’ve got some lovely used lawn furniture on the cheap I’d love to sell you. He’s won nine this year, and while some will say that a lot of that has to do with the D-Backs offense, there are only two starts that you can really look at and say “wow, he REALLY should have gotten a win there,” and it’s not like he’s the only guy who has had that kind of a problem. Third starters don’t win 15 games. They win ten-to-twelve in good seasons.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball 101
3rd starters win 15 games on pennant winning ballclubs.
Don’t believe me? Check out the history of pennant winning ballclubs and the records of their starting pitchers.
Pitching is the most important aspect of baseball. You can have all the offense you want, but if you can’t hold the other team, you won’t win more than half your games.
Starting pitching is premium. You pay for the premium. If one can’t afford to pay for it, maybe baseball isn’t where one should be putting one’s money.
I was just reading about JB’s background. He was basically a novice to baseball when he was hired. Yes, he was touted in the Boston press as being someone on the rise, but where did he learn the rules for governing a winning baseball franchise? Haverford College, with their grand tradition of winning at Omaha? His 10 pennant winning seasons? Where?
Experience counts.
Now, clearly this is on the job training. Someone decided that on the job training was better than hiring an experienced proven GM with a track record, and that’s fine. That’s how someone decided they wanted to run their ballclub.
But they also chose to take the risk that a novice GM may display a steep learning curve in what is a rather cut-throat and ruthless business, and risk suffering some mild criticism along the way from a handful of fans who would otherwise prefer to watch good baseball with the expectation that the team on the field is truly the best one that the franchise could assemble.
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And briefly. . .
I understand that JB was an assistant GM at Cleveland and Boston, and that those were/are successful franchises. But the step from assistant to the seat of GM is probably larger than we would expect. Its a large step up from implementing other people’s programs to designing one’s own, and that’s where the learning curve comes in. Have a great day. Go D’Backs.
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, thanks for the lecture
But aside from your facts being wrong (seriously, do you get tired of this ever?), there’s also the fact that Jon Garland hasn’t woken up on any day this season as a third starter on a pennant-winning ballclub, he was a third starter on the mediocre Diamondbacks (which is why we just traded him to continue rebuilding) and is a fourth or fifth starter on the Dodgers, and probably a solid fourth starter on most pennant-contending teams, which is the demographic you’re so concerned with.
Starting pitching is a premium, and when teams like the Yankees, Sox, Dodgers, etc. have gigantic payrolls, they can overpay on that premium and take small-market teams out of the picture. I hope you realize that the owners of the Yankees, Sox, Dodgers, etc. all either make money or stay financially stable from season to season. It’s not like they spend money they don’t make (aside from Colangelo, that is, and we all know what has happened since ran for the hills). They just happen to take in more money, and thus spend more money. So saying that “if one can’t afford to pay it, maybe baseball isn’t where one should be putting one’s money,” reeks of ignorance of the fact that there can only be so many teams in New York, Boston, and Los Angeles, and only so many teams with as much history as those squads, which is probably one of the best harbingers of having a rabid fan base. If the Yankees or Red Sox sucked next season, how much do you want to bet they’d still sell out their games?
I go to Notre Dame, a major university, but yet nowhere in our course schedule do I see the class Baseball Management 30578. I wish we had it, because I’d be in that class in a heartbeat and hopefully finally be able to take serious consideration into a career in the field, rather than just in fantasies, but arguing that he went to a small college and thus isn’t smart or qualified for the job is frankly stupid and arrogant. And did you expect 10 pennant-winning seasons from a candidate? Crimey, the few guys that achieve that stay with the teams they win those for for their careers, as anybody would be stupid to let them go – they’re not found everywhere. It’s not JB’s fault he inherited a complete financial mess, but he’s made the best out of it with good scouting, drafting, and development, and had many things out of his control go terribly wrong.
By the way, I’d rather have a fresh, innovative thinker like JB than a re-tread three-year-firing-plan GM who isn’t going to take your team anywhere. Better to have an Assistant GM who is on the upswing and a bright mind than a proven failure who might work because “he knows how the job works.” If you want us to go hire Jim Bowden, be my guest, but nobody with a brain will agree with you.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oddly enough
some of the best general managers in baseball history never went to college!
Can you imagine?
Same with some of the best managers, too.
Wow, guess maybe it doesn’t take good SATs to make good decisions, now doesn’t it.
They learned the game, made some mistakes, or in some cases, were lucky and got it right, and put together fantastic franchises.
Now, before you start devolving into insipid name calling, let me tell you that I arrogantly have high standards. I love good baseball.
But I’m not going to help finance in a small way a franchise until I am convinced that its on the right track. Then I’ll buy my season tickets. But until that happens. . .
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm....
it must be rough getting all your analytical baseball knowledge from Joe Morgan.
"In the future, I want to be a fossil. Or, at least have my feces be fossilized"
-Pygalgia
by DbacksSkins on Sep 6, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So then
What was your point in bringing up Josh Byrnes’ college? I’ll remind you that you were the first to mention this, only to try to lash out with your super-witty sarcasm when I brought the subject back up in a counterpoint. If you’re going to say that one’s college education isn’t necessary in being a good GM, then don’t bring it up yourself in the first place.
Who says you can’t learn the game by working for someone who is a GM? i.e. as an Assistant GM. i.e. like Josh Byrnes.
Also, you’re basically saying that good GMs got lucky in building their first good teams, then magically learned through that luck how to not get fleeced in trades and build good squads for years to come. So there’s not a single way a young GM can legitimately be good at his job. Mmkay then.
p.s. Just keep telling yourself that telling someone they’re “devolving” into “insipid name calling” isn’t hypocritical at all.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So don't help finance them.
Many of those who post on this board have not been to DBacks games, so you could say we aren’t financing them. We’re just fans. If there’s a team out there that you like, then be a fan for them. If there’s a team out there that you feel like financially supporting, do that. But it’s not necessary to financially support the DBacks if you just want to cheer for them. I think you’re taking it too seriously.
"I forgot I have short term memory loss." Kate
by 4 Corners Fan on Sep 8, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fact check, aisle 3
3rd starters win 15 games on pennant winning ballclubs. Don’t believe me? Check out the history of pennant winning ballclubs and the records of their starting pitchers.
Consider it checked…
3rd starter on 2007 Diamondbacks: Livan Hernandez, 11 wins
3rd starter on 2002 Diamondbacks: Rick Helling, 10 wins.
3rd starter on 2001 Diamondbacks: Miguel Batista, 11 wins
3rd starter on 1999 Diamondbacks: Armando Reynoso, 11 wins
So, the four times the Diamondbacks reached the playoffs, their third starter had less than a dozen wins. NO TEAM had three 15-game winners last season at all.
Oh, maybe you mean NL pennant? No, wrong there too. Only one NL champion since 1996 has had three 15-game winners, the 2004 Cardinals. Since then the numbers of wins by their third starter has been 13, 12, 8 and 11, an average of just 11.
While your views are refreshing and often well-argued, you should be aware than when challenged to check something, we will do it…
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Sep 6, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine
Win. Win and you’ll win me. If not, you won’t and I won’t give a rat. If you’re satisfied with mediocrity, good for you. But don’t yell at me for wanting something more than Racing Gracies and Smooch cams.
by NASCARbernet on Sep 6, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so what you're saying is you're a bandwagon
you’ll cheer for the team and be happy when they’re winning but in between championships where they are bound to have down years and personnel changes you’ll kindly step away until they start winning again?
Go DBacks!
by AJforAZ on Sep 6, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't
say that you’re a fan when we win, then find a reason we’re losing and say it needs fixed… regardless of the reason, if we’re losing, there’s obviously a reason and a real fan sticks with the team, doesn’t go fishing for a reason and ignore the team. No team will make the playoffs every year, and the years that you don’t, there’s always a reason and something needing fixed. Don’t complain about that issue and take off…
Warning: the above represents the thoughts and opinions of a 15-year-old.
by Wailord on Sep 6, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dodgers will not give more than Abreu for the Garland trade.
Dodgers General Manager Ned Colletti and Assistant General Manager Kim Ng declined to comment on the situation, but sources said the Dodgers aren’t planning to offer the Diamondbacks any money to offset Abreu’s pay increase or add any players to the list of players they can select.
Arizona has until Oct. 15 to choose a player to complete the trade.
by Tripon on Sep 6, 2009 2:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So what the in blue hell happens if they cant agree?
do we get nothing or what?
by SaveUsY2J on Sep 6, 2009 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
D'backs can ask for a grevience to try to get more.
Or accept Abreu as is.
by Tripon on Sep 6, 2009 3:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll ask for a grievance.
It is the Dodgers, after all.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow, the Dodgers gave us
a talk to the hand response. Maybe Arizona does something like pick no one forcing MLB to get this to arbitration? Wonder if there’s a precedent for this kind of “gotcha” concerbning trades.
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused....
by piratedan7 on Sep 6, 2009 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
Way to make shady business deals and refuse to acknowledge when you get called out on them. I hope Selig ends up making them give us an extra player. Would make my day.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its BS
It was there screw up so now they are saying well we arent gonna do anything to make up for it. God this makes me hate the dodgers even more. We should make them pa the rest of garlands salary. If thats even possible.
by SaveUsY2J on Sep 6, 2009 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't doubt
That if this does go to a hearing, that that could very easily happen.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would jump up and down in joy
i wonder if they would let us take abreu too?
by SaveUsY2J on Sep 6, 2009 3:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a given.
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I vote for Ethier and Kemp. That should even things out nicely.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Sep 6, 2009 6:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
My brother: Did you see the genre of this song [Wake Up by Arcade Fire]?
Me: Isn't it Alternative?
My brother: No, it was funeral. Most depressing thing ever. I s*** you not. Go look it up.
Me: ::checks iTunes:: That's the album title.
by IHateSouthBend on Sep 6, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like Ethier.
But I’ll take Kemp and Billingsley? Or Kemp and Kershaw? Their choice.
"In the future, I want to be a fossil. Or, at least have my feces be fossilized"
-Pygalgia
by DbacksSkins on Sep 6, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Make 'em take Byrnes!
What more revenge could you wish upon the Dodgers….except maybe a forced extension at the same time.
by Counsellmember on Sep 7, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IAWTC.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Sep 8, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What douchebags!
This trade may be the best yet cause it’s exposed the Dodgers for the douchecanoes we always knew they were. This will go to an MLB hearing and the Dodgers will get taken. Byrnes and the Dbacks just need to hold out on this one and stand their ground and Ned Colletti will be without a job and no one will deal with the Dodgers.
Go DBacks!
by AJforAZ on Sep 6, 2009 11:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ned Colletti & the Dodgers
= massive douchepickles
"In the future, I want to be a fossil. Or, at least have my feces be fossilized"
-Pygalgia
by DbacksSkins on Sep 6, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"No way of knowing"
is misleading because obviously the Dodgers could have told them.
In a case like this, do the teams talk to the player or his agent during the negotiations and if so shouldn’t they have said something?
Either way i suggest that this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyt0r-egZhc
be his entrance song for next season.
'Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?'
by Arizona via Slough on Sep 6, 2009 9:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well chosen!
"I forgot I have short term memory loss." Kate
by 4 Corners Fan on Sep 8, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's certainly possible
that neither Abreu nor his agent said anything about it because they figured he’d get more playing time w/ Arizona than with Los Angeles, given that there’s a chance that the Dodgers re-sign Orlando Hudson.
"In the future, I want to be a fossil. Or, at least have my feces be fossilized"
-Pygalgia
by DbacksSkins on Sep 8, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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