AZ Snakepit: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
New Blog: Cottagers Confidential for Fulham FC Fans!

AJ Hinch has to go

First of all, I know it won't happen, but I'll be the first to say it. It would be one thing if Chip Hale had taken over and we wouldn't expect any more than an Al Pedrique caretaker finish to the season. Seriously, c'mon, we passed over Gibby and Brett Butler for this? And, (yes, I know I've already bitched about this to no avail), but a multi-year deal? Seriously, we're not going into 2010 with Hinch in the driver's seat, right? J. Byrnes is going to play puppet master this year and then realize what a fool he's been, correct? Seriously, we look like complete %$*?># to the rest of the league right now, I mean it's one thing to develop players, but who can take a front office guy seriously as a manager, ex-player or not. I can't get Price's comments out of my head, he was spot on. Hindsight, looks like a horrible move, not saying I predicted it, but can't have been any worse with Melvin. Agree, disagree, go for it. We all know it's the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about.

0 recs  |  Comment 90 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I don't necessarily

agree that Hinch should go, but he hasn’t shown himself to be an impact manager. Most managers aren’t, though, so my feeling is if the guy is cheap and doesn’t make bonehead moves, keep him around until an impact manager becomes available. No point in making two changes in one year at manager.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 7, 2009 3:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree

Since Hinch took over as manager, the team no longer looks like they’re playing baseball at their grandmothers’ funeral. Other than that, he seems like a neutral impact on the club. Offense is up, pitching is down, and we still have a lineup that’s riddled with holes. Until we address the problems in our lineup (not enough reliable relievers, not enough clutch hitters or batters who hit for average) we’d just be setting up another manager for failure.

I’d make these three changes before I got rid of Hinch:

First, I’d trade for a stable long reliever with a 4.0 ERA. It seems like every one of our relievers is really two people: the lights-out ace with a sub-1.0 ERA and the near-sighted bumbler who can’t get an out to save his life and lives around 7.0 ERA. I’d like one player who splits the difference and reliably gives up about one run every couple innings. He’d be very useful in those 3 to 4 run games that we can’t seem to hang onto lately.

Second I’d pick up a player who hits for average and reliably puts the ball in play. We don’t even have to trade for him, we just have to wait until Conor Jackson recovers from the killer desert lung fungus.

And finally I’d pick a fight with Eric Byrnes. Every time he hits a towering pop fly with runners in scoring position I’d bench him immediately. In fact, if I was Hinch, I would meet him before he reaches the dugout so everyone in the ballpark can see me send him to the showers. And I’d do it like an umpire throwing a player out of the game, with lots of pointing and a great big “You’re outta here!” It may not help the the outcome of the game, but I’d feel a lot better and it’d set a great example for any of our young players who think wild, uncontrolled effort is a viable substitute for technique.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Jun 7, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Singling

out a player like that isn’t a great way to get on the players’ side. Managing, like in any profession, isn’t just about getting your team to work to its potential, but managing the people as well.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 7, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just venting

But thanks for the education.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Jun 7, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Benching Troy Tulowitzki

for swinging at the first pitch certainly worked out well for Clint Hurdle.

Go Dbacks. (Temporary signature)

by DbacksSkins on Jun 8, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's true

When was the last time Hurdle lost a gam-

Wait, never mind.

"And that's not just a metaphor. We're actually building an umbrella."

by kishi on Jun 8, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You gotta do it right

or it won’t work.

I bet Clint stayed in the dugout and quietly changed the lineup card. Where were the histrionics? Where was the drama? The shouting? The wild arm gestures? The “So-long, Sucka!” on the Jumbotron? The YouTube Batting Stance Guy to analyze his swing?

Of course it didn’t work for Clint Hurdle.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Jun 8, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When was the last time

that sort of obviously staged drama worked for ANY manager?

Seriously. Examples, please.

Billy Martin?

REALLY dumb idea, especially vs. a player who’s popular in the clubhouse and conveys the image of giving maximum effort, and especially by a manager who’s still trying to win over the home team.

Go Dbacks. (Temporary signature)

by DbacksSkins on Jun 8, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please see above Re: Venting

Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning Skins? Creatively killing Jon Rauch is probably also a bad idea. Where was this righteous indignation then?

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Jun 8, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw it.

But I was under the impression that venting is a one-time emotional thing. I’m not righteously indignant. I just disagree with the idea, that’s all, and you seem a bit more serious about it than edbigghead was about “offing Jon Rauch”.

Go Dbacks. (Temporary signature)

by DbacksSkins on Jun 8, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ed just tells better jokes

Or at least he frames his hyperbole better than I do.

I didn’t do a good job of expressing myself there. My frustration with Byrnes is genuine. To me, he’s the baseball-equivalent of a professional wrestler, more interested in putting on a show than helping his team win the game. The feats of athletic prowess are genuine and impressive, but they’re not why I watch baseball.

I don’t, however, expect Hinch to act like a professional wrestler too (although maybe he could, just once, whack Byrnsie over the head with a folding chair, or jump on him from the top of the dugout). I’d rather he sat down for a Jon Rauch-style conversation with Eric Byrnes. And maybe, if it’d help, I’d be happy if he rode Byrnes a little too. Maybe take a little bit of the shine out of pointless flops in the outfield and picturesque golf swings that end in a dramatic pose and a quick jog back to the dugout. In the meantime, I’m probably gonna get a lot of opportunites to vent on the Snakepit: once for every time Byrnes wastes an at-bat or plays “Wild Rumpus” in the outfield. It beats yelling incoherent obscenities at the TV.

I am, on the other hand, deadly serious about my first two points. This team desperately needs a few unsexy, but reliable players. We have a whole lineup of future stars or potential flops. It’d be great to have a workmanlike foundation.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Jun 8, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I.tell.the.best.jokes.

If I see one more Eric Byrnes 'flip throw' I will shoot myself a whole bunch of times.

by edbigghead on Jun 8, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See, I think

Eric really IS trying his best out there. I think he just sucks. ::shrug::

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It looks like we agree

I think Byrnes is trying his best. But, whether it’s through stubbornness or stupidity, a lot of that effort is wasted on his ridiculous affectations. Buried in all my rhetoric about tossing him out of the game is a sincere hope that someone can convince him to play just a little smarter. Other managers have tried (I’m sure Byrnes was a major cause of Bob Melvin’s perpetually knitted brow), now it’s Hinch’s turn.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Jun 9, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure

at this point in his career, Eric’s going to change anything.

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably not

But we can’t stop trying.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Jun 9, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't stop

believin’

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Can't have been any worse with Melvin"

Record under Melvin 12-17
Record under Hinch 12-15.

Can’t say it would have been any worse with Melvin, but it was worse under him.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 7, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

By two games

oh noooooooooooooo.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 7, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

by Azreous on Jun 7, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Three now

In one-sixth of a season.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 7, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

that certainly is a lot.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 7, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would have been nice

To have had three more wins last season, no?

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 7, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess

if that’s how this worked.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 7, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well,

3 wins in 1/6th of a season is 18 wins. I’m sure we all would have been content with 100 wins last season.

Of COURSE that’s not how it works, though.

Go Dbacks. (Temporary signature)

by DbacksSkins on Jun 8, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no

I think they are playing better under him,even if the damn bullpen have scewed the results

"Tramps like us,baby we were born to run"

by hotclaws on Jun 7, 2009 4:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

6 of one and

half a dozen of another….

I’ll keep my mouth shut to see how it plays out. Even though I strongly disagree with the move by JB, it deserves the chance to play out.

"He who controls the Spice, controls the universe! "

by unnamedDBacksfan on Jun 7, 2009 4:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 7, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So far the team’s unquestionably been playing better with Hinch than it did with BoMel. The offense has been night and day better. Playing Reynolds at first allows Roberts to play at third instead of a light-hitting first baseman, something no one can afford. The team’s running much more under Hinch.
There’s no elephant in the room, unless it’s just stopping by to congratulate the team on a great move.

Go Diamondbacks!

by sayheyupton on Jun 7, 2009 4:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

but did anyone

really expect this team to struggle so badly offensively the WHOLE season? Players were bound to break out and Hinch/JB have been the ones to reap that benefit.

"He who controls the Spice, controls the universe! "

by unnamedDBacksfan on Jun 7, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Considering they were in a slump the entire season last year and this year until BoMel left, yes!

Go Diamondbacks!

by sayheyupton on Jun 8, 2009 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The numbers

don’t exactly show an encouraging sign that they’re out of a slump, or at least not yet anyways.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 8, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unless

you go by runs scored…..

Go Dbacks. (Temporary signature)

by DbacksSkins on Jun 8, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or, indeed, any offensive metric, compared to the previous year

Game 30, 2008-Game 29, 2009 – .243/.319/.400 = .719 OPS
Game 30, 2009-Game 57, 2009 – .263/.335/.419 = .754 OPS

With basically the same offensive players. For the record, league average OPS this year is .740.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 8, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really

Since everyone said Lopez was a downgrade from Hudson, and our best hitter from last season is on what has to be one of the most freakish trips to the DL I’ve seen in some time…

"And that's not just a metaphor. We're actually building an umbrella."

by kishi on Jun 8, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The 2009 team

has hit better under Hinch (as surely as they’ve yielded more runs), but managerial appraisals, or suggestions of such, benefit from comparative data that’s both significant and honestly mined.

Once again, you’ve diabolically opted to castrate Melvin’s ‘numbers’ just before April 2008, when his team actually hit better than Hinch’s. This ‘oversight’ doesnt change that AJ’s guys are hitting better than the statistically signifcant (ie long term) Bob, but tweaking your start point makes the disparity appear larger (ie more significant) than it currently is.

Here’s Bob Melvin’s hitting “line” in 2008:

.251/.327/.415=.742 OPS

Adding in his woeful April/May 09, which increases the statistical significance:

.246/.322/.410=.732 OPS* (quick and dirty calculation, open to review)

Lower than Hinch? Sure. Melvin’s seven months (with “basically the same” guys) is also far more statistically significant (on both the hitting and pitching fronts). My takeaway is that Hinch’s guys are hitting somewhat better than the “real” (ie statistically significant) Melvin, but we dont really know why yet. Could be Hinch and “philosophy”. Could be young talents naturally maturing. Could be an unreliable month’s worth of data (unreliable compared to a season or two). Some combination, perhaps.

Subjectively, what I see offensively is mostly regression. Good players finding their level, and not so good ones finding theirs. Our April 09 outfielders, in particular, started unbelievably , unsustainably badly, and that’s sorting itself out thru more ABs (Upton, CY), personnel changes (Parra) and a costly, late medical diagnosis(CoJack). Mostly good news, and CY and Drew, in particular, can only improve, but I’m unconvinced it has much to do with managerial or coaching presence.

The bad news is some guys will drop. Ojeda already has. Roberts wont hit .400 for AJ forever and Parra wont hit .667 with RISP. Lopez is starting to tail. Great as they’ve hit under both skippers, even Justin and Reynolds have tailed off some from their best spurts (both of which came under Bob, incidentally). Again, I think it’s premature to hold Hinch responsible or bestow too much credit.

The same is generally true of the bullpen, which appears at least as “mismanaged” as our April batters ever were. AJ (as opposed to JB) deserves some time to sort it all out.

One distinction troubles me going forward, however. If we compartmentalize Melvin’s 2008-09 team into one month splits (to contrast with AJ’s “month”), on the hitting side, we find that Bob’s team hit worse than AJ in five of the seven months, the same one month (July) and better (April 08). With the bullpen, I dont even have to look at the aggregate numbers – Melvin and Price never had a bullpen regularly coughing up sizable game leads like this. It wont continue like this – it cant. But when a team, or a subset like “hitters” or “bullpen” does stuff under one staff that it never did under the other, I see that as a particular point of interest, and for better or worse, a potential red flag.

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Jun 8, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, it is very early days

Absolutely no question about that – the trends are just worthy of further interest as the sample-size increases. I can certainly see how a rookie manager would find bullpen handling among the toughest part of the game, so that makes sense. Not that the 2008 team was immune from coughing up severely crooked numbers: the team had eight games where they allowed 5+ from the sixth inning on, and indeed, the ninth inning was the worst of any for allowing runs, the team allowing over 5.5 runs per nine IP there.

Interestingly, the bullpen performance hasn’t been ‘worse’ – I don’t have precise splits, but using these numbers, through the end of April, the bullpen ERA was 5.64; since then, it’s been 4.61. Conversely, the starters have pitched a little worse. Overall: the ERA in April was 4.52; since then, it’s 4.38, and the difference is probably basically zero once you take park effects into consideration.

But the relievers just seem to have given up runs at the worst possible times, in the worst possible amounts. We saw that last season too, where our bullpen ERA wasn’t too bad, but they had a pathetic W-L record. Now the reverse is true: they have a wretched ERA, but have only lost eight of the 32 games. As noted, last night the bullpen allowed in total, five runs in eleven innings of work, an ERA barely above four (4.09); normally, that would be something we’d be very satisfied with. It’s all very strange.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 8, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With due respect

splits suggesting Bob’s staffs were largely indistinguishable (let alone improved) from AJ/Stott serve to confuse more than illuminate. Here’s the big picture, sans context :
 
2009 Melvin: RS 3.6 RA 4.4 (-0.8)
2009 Hinch: RS 5.0 RA 5.3 (-0.3)
0809 Melvin: RS 4.3 RA 4.4 (-0.1)

Maybe Hinch has turbocharged the offense, maybe he’s mismanaged the staff. Maybe everyone is in the process of finding their levels,as “first months” often have ups and downs beyond historical norms.

I’d venture the 3.6 RS in April was unsustainable under Melvin (or anyone) very long. It counts and it hurt us, but based on Bob’s overall results with this core, I dont see April as a meaningful reflection of his leadership, any more than April 2008’s isolated spree is a suitable benchmark to measure AJ against.

Time will tell whether AJ’s numbers are sustainable, and what’s fairer to both, I think, is gradually weighing AJ against the composite 0809 Bob, not against one of Bob’s worst months. I’m certainly hopeful of lasting improvement, but to date, see only spotty evidence our team is better with AJ – and even less evidence it’s because of him.

cheers

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Jun 8, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

edit

splits suggesting Bob’s staffs were largely indistinguishable from (let alone worse than) those of AJ/Stott

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Jun 8, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Overly simplistic

You’re now lumping everything together into one number e.g. pitching and defense, and are also ignoring things like the number of innings actually pitched. Melvin’s 29 games this year covered 259,1 IP, so that still works out at 4.4 runs per 9 IP. However, Hinch has played fewer games but his pitchers have already thrown more innings – the figure there works out at 5.0 runs per 9 IP. Unfortunately, there’s no easy way to find out innings played for the offense – it’s all at-bats and plate-appearances.

April may have been one of Melvin’s worst months – it got him fired, obviously. But it is the most appropriate comparison, since it’s basically Melvin’s use of the same tools with which Hinch has to work. It would be a great deal more unfair to Hinch to compare the performance under him, using any metric which has 33 starts by the staff ace, a mostly healthy Jackson and a bullpen which included productive components like Lyon, Cruz, etc.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 8, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Overly complicated

If the recent extra innings bring Hinch’s RA down from 5.3 to 5.0, it’s easy enough to adjust his RS down from 5.0 to 4.8 or so. The problem is you seem more committed to arguing an agenda than in making a reasonable, even-handed adjustment. It really shouldnt be that hard :-)

Webb’s certainly a valid consideration, although not as significant to this issue as you probably think, in that Melvin’s staff sported a better ERA than AJ’s, even when Brandon was on the DL and/or pitching miserably (ie 2009). More generally, once you complicate the discussion by highlighting Webb’s 2008 contribution, integrity requires one account for the range of 2008 ‘contributions’ Hinch doesnt deal with. Like Eric Byrnes’ “hamstrung” 2008 horror show, with no legitimate (or at least no obvious) replacement in sight. Doug Davis’s cancer. Organizational reliance on mound mainstays Micah Owings (currently leading the NL in losses for Cincinnati), YPetit, Jon Rauch and that awesome sole lefty out of the pen – Doug Slaten! More than anything, the huge fact our youthful positional core was a year younger in 2008 and that its biggest potential difference maker (Justin Upton, who eventually blossomed under Melvin) wasnt developmentally ready to be a difference maker yet.

April may have been one of Melvin’s worst months – it got him fired, obviously. But it is the most appropriate comparison, since it’s basically Melvin’s use of the same tools with which Hinch has to work.

Really? Like a healthy Stephen Drew? Or El Nino Gerardo Parra, whose OPS nearly doubles that of 2008 LF Eric Byrnes – and exceeds that of your “mostly healthy” Conor Jackson (2008/09), the LFer you cite as some big honking statistical advantage for Melvin! Without apparently realizing that Conor’s April 09 was so shockingly, off the chart sickly, it rendered his entire 08/09 OPS+ under Melvin below 100. Brandon Lyon, of the 4.70 ERA? Oh yeah, gee, what a terrible loss. How could all the kids throwing 96 out of the pen possibly compete with Juan Cruz, let alone Brandon Lyon? Roaarrrrr!

Look. You can bring up Adam Dunn, and I can bring up his defense and we’ll never settle this :-) The more intriguing and significant aspects, beyond all this statistical jockeying, are the internal, organizational questions which may never go public. For example, who is (and was) calling the playing time shots? Who was responsible for Melvin bringing in Rauch all those times, or playing CY non-stop thru a mammoth slump, like he was Ken Kendrick’s freakin’ nephew? Bob or JB? Who was keeping someone like Parra down on the farm, until Melvin departed? Was Bob simply too enamored with veterans to honestly see what the kid could bring? Or was JB always calling the shots and reluctantly realized his prized core needed new players more than new leadership, and shielded that realization (ie failure to meet expectations) with a managerial change?

Remember in the presss conference, when Josh was asked about why Bob was canned? He said (among other things) this was essentially the same team that went to the NLCS in 2007, and had been underperforming since. Well, take a look at Josh’s roster contributors today – under AJ Hinch. Is this the same team that went to the NLCS? Our 2007 leaders were EB (a shell of his 2007 self) and Hudson (gone). Jackson’s incapacitated. Drew just recently came off the DL. CY hasnt hit for either manager, yet. The only 07 regulars who contribute similarly today are Snyder and Reynolds. And today’s staff resembles the NLCS staff even less. Webb is out. Livan and Johnson are long gone. Valverde, Cruz, your buddy Lyon. There’s two guys on the whole staff who are still contributing today. Doug Davis and Tony Pena. Two friggin’ guys.

Today’s roster contributors bear little resemblance to the NLCS season. I’m not saying JB cant make changes, or that this team doesnt have talent. Hell, they’re very likely better than the 2007 team in a lot of ways. But how can a leader with integrity, a really intelligent man, get up in front of the mics and fire his mgr under the guise “this is the same team that won in 2007”? I dont think you can. I dont even want to get into the pythag, which just adds a layer of dishonor to his base mendacity here.

That’s why I’m focused on Byrnes, who’s on his fourth hitting coach in less than three years. Quite apart from whether AJ is or will be a capable manager, it’s increasingly obvious JB is grasping at straws and deflecting blame for his own strategic miscalculations.

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Jun 9, 2009 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

[ The problem is you seem more committed to arguing an agenda ]

Which, of course, you’ve never ever done. :-) You even see a reporting of our draft results as a surreptitious assault on the previous administration.

Here, it’s remarkable how you completely flip-flop your position from demanding the inclusion of 2008, to providing a litany of reasons why everything was so different then. I’ll like to provide counter-arguments to your position: I’m just not sure you even know what it is. Especially when you come out with flat-out factual errors like:

Or El Nino Gerardo Parra, whose OPS nearly doubles that of 2008 LF Eric Byrnes

Parra OPS 2009: 805
Byrnes OPS 2008: 641

Only in your mind would a 25% difference in OPS – over half as many at-bats – become ‘nearly doubles’. We’ll also ignore the fact that Parra was equally available for Melvin to utilize – he was in spring training camp too. Sorry, what was that about an agenda again?

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 9, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You even see a reporting of our draft results as a surreptitious assault on the previous administration.

Coming from you? Sure I do. I was enjoying your detailed report, until I “learned” we made no mistakes – after 2004 ;-). That triggered my bullshit meter (well worn on this site), so I did some checking on my own (ie Joba, Porcello, etc) and easily exposed your biased presentation. It wasnt stridently biased – it just tarnished what was otherwise a very nice effort.

Here, it’s remarkable how you completely flip-flop your position from demanding the inclusion of 2008, to providing a litany of reasons why everything was so different then.

No. You’ve misconstrued argumentative integrity for ‘flip flop’. We can include 2008, or not. I’d prefer to include it on a high (ie “overly simplistic”) level (and have supported why), but can discuss either way. That’s not the primary issue. The issue is, if we include it and you choose to drill down to a granular level (ie Webb), then integrity behooves that we account for the range of 2008 caveats – inevitably pulling in both directions. That’s what I contributed, in response to your one-sided laundry list of circumstances advantageous to BoMel. It’s not a flip flop. It’s argumentative integrity. Contrast with your dismissal of 2008 as statistically unsound, when the most unsound thing is your personal application of that year’s assumptions. I understand this is how you roll – so you can contrast AJ’s mediocre-at-best coming out party with one of BM’s less representative, injury-plagued months – instead of against his statistically significant record with “these guys”.

Only in your mind would a 25% difference in OPS – over half as many at-bats – become ‘nearly doubles’.

I meant OPS+, not OPS, so my error. Byrnes was 62, Parra’s over 100. That’s why I said ‘nearly’ doubles. More importantly, it’s an honest error, unintended to color the debate, so the fact you wanna shithouse lawyer all over it is hilarious. Yeah. I made an offhand, technical oversight with almost no bearing on the universally accepted fact Parra is kicking Byrnes’ ass. Congratulations.

We’ll also ignore the fact that Parra was equally available for Melvin to utilize – he was in spring training camp too.

Was he? That’s one of those internal, organizational “mysteries” I was talking about. If Parra was equally available for Melvin, wasnt Gerardo equally available to Josh Byrnes as well, coming out of camp? I dont believe Parra’s eventual callup was a function of managerial insight (or lack of same). It was a function of changing circumstances and expectations. The May realizations that CoJack wasnt going to work his way out of a ‘slump’, EByrnes probably wouldnt and Chris Young might not. You wanna blame all that on Bob Melvin?


Sorry, what was that about an agenda again?

My only “agenda” is getting at the truth, Jim. I’ve concluded the team’s problems can be traced much higher than the coaches or manager. You think the root of our problems is the manager bunts too much ;-)

cheers

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Jun 9, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Laughable
More importantly, it’s an honest error, unintended to color the debate

I see. When you get caught fabricating facts in support of your argument, it’s an “honest error” [and even with OPS, since when is 105 ‘nearly double’ 62?]. But if you disagree with my much more subjective choice [Max or Joba], it “easily exposed [my] biased presentation.” Double standard much?

My only "agenda" is getting at the truth, Jim.

I think it’s time you got a new tinfoil hat. For like most conspiracy theorists, you have absolutely no interest in ‘the truth,’ despite loud, frequent protestations to the contrary. You have already decided what the truth will be, and all contrary opinions are snidely disparaged and/or dismissed.

Cheers. ;-)

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 9, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The double standard here

is that I gracefully acknowledge mistakes (OPS+) and earnestly rebut dissent (ie Webb).

Generally speaking, you fail to do either, and have reduced yourself to shrieking, “The other guy’s a loony”.

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Jun 10, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

?

the ol’ tinfoil hat reference coming from a guy who’s made a “biggest patsy since Lee Harvey Oswald” call? I’m confused, Jim :)

"Have a take and do not suck or you will get run." - Jim Rome

by jonny-yuma on Jun 11, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sarcasm.

It’s catching on. ;-)

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 11, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

you probably should have just pulled those numbers out first, instead of trying to use the wins. Either way, that change isn’t very much right now. Show me significant changes (which would take more games played) and I’ll believe Hinch is anything more than just another dude who writes up lineup cards.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 8, 2009 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously

A month in and you’re already calling for him to be fired?

"And that's not just a metaphor. We're actually building an umbrella."

by kishi on Jun 7, 2009 5:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

IMO, should have never been hired.

But I am willing to wait the rest of this season to see how thinking outside the box works

"He who controls the Spice, controls the universe! "

by unnamedDBacksfan on Jun 7, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

I guess I’m more worried about how this is going to affect the organization long-term. Just worried about losing guys like Gibby and Brett Butler, not to mention guys who don’t want to come into our system because they might get passed over by a front office guy. Short-term, it has only been a month, so I’ll shut up about it and let him ride out the year.

by jonny-yuma on Jun 7, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well....

I will say I prefer this to another “OMG MARKK RENOLDS AND ERIC CORNFLAKE BURNS HAVE GOT TO GO LOLZ!!!!!!!!!!!!” FanPost.

Go Dbacks. (Temporary signature)

by DbacksSkins on Jun 8, 2009 12:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Really

You should consult a doctor if you’re getting cornflake burns. Or learn to cook better.

"And that's not just a metaphor. We're actually building an umbrella."

by kishi on Jun 8, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hinch looks like the frail, pale faced sick kid on the simpsons bus.

If I see one more Eric Byrnes 'flip throw' I will shoot myself a whole bunch of times.

by edbigghead on Jun 8, 2009 12:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He can look like the Hunchback of Notre Dame

For all I care, as long as he gets the team turned around.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 8, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Go Dbacks. (Temporary signature)

by DbacksSkins on Jun 8, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Could you imagine being the homeplate ump

and seeing a hunchback waddling toward you ready to argue a call ?

Do you reverse the call before he gets to you or do you stand your ground ?

If I see one more Eric Byrnes 'flip throw' I will shoot myself a whole bunch of times.

by edbigghead on Jun 8, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In my case,

you just point and laugh at him.

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 8, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't like the hire...

OK, hire the guy for the rest of the season, but a 3 year deal? What team in the majors would hire any manager with NO manager expirance to a 3 year deal? I can understand bringing him to sort of “see how it works out” for the rest of the season, and if it does, then sign him to a long term deal.

I think hiring him was stupied. I like the changes to the line up and defense, however, I think his in game descions have been, at the very least suspect. As a manager, I think he’s a good front office guy.
To say we are playing way better then we were, well, that isn’t a lot, we sucked before he came on, now we don’t suck that bad (excluding the bull pen). Sure we are hitting better, our pitching still needs a little work, aside from Heron.

I’m willing to wait out the season, its pretty much a lost cuase anyway, but if there aren’t significant improvements come Sept, then yeah, I’ll be on the “fire AJ” band wagon.

by parrotheadkrm on Jun 8, 2009 1:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The

three year deal screams of “look we know what we’re doing, okay” kind of logic.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 9, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That, or else

“we don’t want to go into the next offseason with an unstable situation at manager”.

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really

don’t think it’s going to matter that much.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 9, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps not,

but you also didn’t do the hiring. ::shrug::

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It might make a little more sense

if Byrnes really believes that we’re THAT close to being on top in the division. If he thinks we can compete next year, it might be a good idea to not have to find a new unknown manager during the offseason.

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"it might be a good idea to not have to find a new unknown manager during the offseason."

Then find a known one. No need to reinvent the wheel. There are a few pretty decent managers out there that are lookin for work. I’m wondering if they even looked around, or just had this guy in mind all the time.

by parrotheadkrm on Jun 9, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't mean unknown, as in an unknown commodity to managing.

I mean somebody known TO THE PLAYERS.

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

neither did you, so what’s your point?

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 9, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um....

so that wouldn’t have been your rationale?

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tried to

provide an explanation for the three year deal, you provided a counter explanation. When I expressed doubt in it, you then turned into a “well you didn’t do the hire” kind of argument, which has nothing to do what we’re talking about, especially since you also attempted to speculate why Hinch got a three year deal. So really, if you want to use that argument, use it first.

And, it’s the reason why we talk about this stuff in the first. Of course we don’t make the decisions, or play the game, or have any place in it beyond paying customers.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 9, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was floating it

as a reason why Hinch might have done it. You disagreed, and I noted that your disagreement was perfectly valid.

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 10, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exhibit B

your Honor, I submit for your perusal, Defendant Hinch attempting to get thrown out of last night’s game while his team laughed at him. Is this pro baseball or a beer buddies softball league? Playtime is over, time to go back to the front office and practice using the stapler remover.

by jonny-yuma on Jun 9, 2009 5:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

They were grinning

because he was fighting with the umpire on Augie’s behalf. NOT “laughing at him”.

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true

but dude can’t even get thrown out when he wants to! maybe mlb will now need to set up a “Manager 101” course if these types of hires keep up.

by jonny-yuma on Jun 9, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You think perhaps he should have punched the umpire

[Rolls eyes]

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 9, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he had

Bleed Cubbie Blue would have started a thread about how the umpire was to blame for leading with his chin.

"And that's not just a metaphor. We're actually building an umbrella."

by kishi on Jun 9, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nah

i guess i’m just slower than most in getting through the denial phase that this is actually our new manager.

by jonny-yuma on Jun 9, 2009 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's

understandable.

I had a snarky comment I was writing, but it can wait ’til later. ;-)

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

have at it

I should probably be giving him more of a chance anyway.

by jonny-yuma on Jun 9, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah.

I wanna save it for when everyone’s watching.

;-)

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 9, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dont sell yourself short, dima

You’re absolutely right, the players on camera appeared to be practically laughing at AJ, excepting Augie who was clearly pissed and involved in the play. The other faces (Scherzer and I forget who else) clearly projected two emotions: disbelief and amusement.

And, at what, really? Was their mgr going ballistic, throwing stuff in the stands, doing outrageous or “funny” things? No. Not compared to real managers, anyway. He was an animated, heated advocate for Ojeda, and for whatever reasons, some guys were clearly surprised and amused by that.

Hovering near last place, losing late to a team projected by some to lose 100 games, Hinch unwittingly provided comic relief to some of his players. Given how Hinch acted, relative to the way we’ve seen hundreds of other mgrs act, I thought it was an exceedingly odd – and telling – player reaction.

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Jun 9, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Once again,

The ’Hacks Inkblot test tells us more about his psychology than the consensus reality shared by the majority…

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 9, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not me

You’re being undermined by reason, and your aversion to it. I could certainly skewer your response, but why bother? Everyone can see you’re reflexively shooting the messenger here.

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Jun 9, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Undermined by reason"?

Thanks for the best laugh ever. Your interpretation and reaction were both pathetically predictable. The messenger had already shot himself in the foot before I ever said anything.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 9, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Way to moderate

the discussion, Socrates.

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Jun 10, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks hacks

i’m glad i’m not the only one who was at least a bit uneasy with the scenario.

by jonny-yuma on Jun 9, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really

That was a surprisingly patient ump. I think the number of things that Hinch could have done that would have gotten him ejected, but not fined and suspended, was fairly small.

"And that's not just a metaphor. We're actually building an umbrella."

by kishi on Jun 9, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was kinda impressed

We’ve seen so many umpires escalate these confrontations instead of maintaining control. It was great to see one go the other way.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Jun 9, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Welcome to the Snakepit!!

Why do you think that?

The Arizona Diamondbacks: Invincible in 18 innings since '01

by DbacksSkins on Jun 18, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the AZ SnakePit, the SB Nation blog about the Arizona Diamondbacks. Summer in Phoenix: "Would you like to sit on the porch? Or would you rather live?" -- Eddie Izzard.
Start posting about the Diamondbacks »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

Cbs_fantasy_baseball_promo

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
SB Nation Survey + Chance to donate $500 to a charity of this community's choice

Recent FanPosts

Augie_april1_small
Forgive my forgetfullness...
Gadsden_small
Spring Training in Tucson: Even with two teams left, it's a small world after all
N16115505_31581383_8646_small
DBacks Season Preview
Mrsnakepit_small
Writers and recappers report...
Me2772_small
Reds 13, Dbacks 7
Small
Missoula Osprey Baseball - Ollie's World
Dd1f5e608745_small
Division 2 Needs You!!
63797e89c433_small
Mark Reynolds wrapped up!
Sparky2_small
MLB Extra Innings on Comcast

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SBNation.com Recent Stories

Seattle Mariners pitcher Cliff Lee speaks during a baseball news conference at Safeco Field in Seattle on Friday, Jan. 22, 2010. Lee was acquired by the Mariners in a trade with the Philadelphia Phillies last December. (AP Photo/John Froschauer) link

Cliff Lee Out With Right Abdominal Strain

Detroit Tigers' Gerald Laird, left, is greeted by teammates Ryan Strieby, center, and Miguel Cabrera who were on base for his third-inning grand slam off New York Yankees pitcher Joba Chamberlain during a spring training baseball game in Lakeland, Fla., Wednesday, March 10, 2010.  (AP Photo/Gene J. Puskar)

SB Nation's 2010 MLB Previews: Detroit Tigers, Sights Set On Success

Davey Johnson, center, a senior adviser for the Washington Nationals,  is shown in the dugout during a spring training baseball game against the New York Mets, Saturday, March 6, 2010, in Viera, Fla. (AP Photo/Rob Carr) +6 updates

Spring Training News and Notes, 3/19: Catching Up With Everyone

More from SBNation.com >


Manager

Mrsnakepit_small Jim McLennan

Bench coaches

Me_-_sp_studio_small snakecharmer

Gadsden_small DbacksSkins

Players

82283_small kishi

Meow2_small Azreous

Alles2_small soco

Ilikemony_small Zephon

Keith_haring2_small Sprankton

Golden_dome_small IHateSouthBend