D-Backs' problems run deeper than Hinch
""The problem here is not the managerial thing," Davis said.
So what's the problem?
The problem is that Byrnes assembled a faulty bullpen. The problem is that veterans like Tony Clark, Eric Byrnes and Chad Tracy have given this team nothing. The problem is that there isn't much depth on this team, and there are too many guys in the room who aren't winners, who are resigned to losing and numb to failure.
A few still bad-mouth the manager, and Hinch knows they exist. Those players must be washed out."
Interesting....... can't believe it came from you know who.
7 months ago
unnamedDBacksfan
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I agree
that the problems run deeper than Hinch (who I don’t have a problem with, but then I didn’t have a problem with Melvin either). Instead, there seems to be a string of decisions that were made by smart people that may have been well intended but instead backfired.
I don’t think the situation is as dire as Bickley wants us to believe. Most teams at any given time are “rebuilding” including his beloved Cubs.
Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!
by soco on Jun 28, 2009 10:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have trouble taking anything that contains "X is the joke of Y" statements seriously.
I’m filled to the brim with hyperbole, but for some reason, that statement always irritates me. It’s a lazy metaphor that lacks punch. Bad Bickley, no biscuit.
We’re are all kinds of awful this year. Some of that is smart, well-intentioned team-building gone awry. Some of it is poor management. Some of it is foolish or unmotivated play. So there’s plenty of blame to go around.
But there are also signs of improvement. Justin Upton is growing from a prospect into a star. Even with his potential, that was hardly a sure thing. Dan Haren has gone from very good to sublime. Mark Reynolds is developing into a unique offensive threat. Gerrardo Parra is an unexpected boon. And we’re one year closer to the end of Eric Byrnes’ contract. We’re a lot closer to competetiveness than Bickley lets on in his column.
"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson
by Scrbl on Jun 28, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
I don’t believe we’re close to contention without a great deal of luck. Yes, have a solid core of Reynolds, Upton, and Lopez (and CoJack when he comes back), but after that the lineup is full of questions and guys who aren’t pulling their weight.
We have a pretty good rotation, especially with Haren at the top, and Davis giving us largely good starts, but the bullpen is awful.
There’s too many parts that need to be swapped for us to be close to contention without some kind of “Leyland Tigers” miracle.
Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!
by soco on Jun 28, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’re are all kinds of awful this year. Some of that is smart, well-intentioned team-building gone awry. Some of it is poor management. Some of it is foolish or unmotivated play. So there’s plenty of blame to go around.
But there are also signs of improvement. Justin Upton is growing from a prospect into a star. Even with his potential, that was hardly a sure thing. Dan Haren has gone from very good to sublime. Mark Reynolds is developing into a unique offensive threat. Gerrardo Parra is an unexpected boon. And we’re one year closer to the end of Eric Byrnes’ contract. We’re a lot closer to competetiveness than Bickley lets on in his column.
Spot on.
As far as “x is the joke of y”, the Nationals have the inside track on x, but we’re gaining fast in terms of day to day play. Not so much in W/L or pythag, but when opponents routinely pummel our pen with the game on the line, score on bunt “home runs”, straight steal home, openly laugh in their dugout after our miscues – when two of our first basmen drop routine throws within a week and our RF whiffs a lazy liner right at him, I dont see ‘x is the joke of y’ as a particularly lazy metaphor.
Current play – joke
Future – still potentially bright
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Jun 28, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you put it this way
As far as "x is the joke of y", the Nationals have the inside track on x, but we’re gaining fast in terms of day to day play. Not so much in W/L or pythag, but when opponents routinely pummel our pen with the game on the line, score on bunt "home runs", straight steal home, openly laugh in their dugout after our miscues – when two of our first basmen drop routine throws within a week and our RF whiffs a lazy liner right at him, I dont see ‘x is the joke of y’ as a particularly lazy metaphor.
Especially with the very pertinent examples, then it’s an excellent metaphor. But I don’t think Bickley put in as much work as you did. Nestled in the midst of a discussion on poor front-office decisions, the joke metaphor feels like it was the lowest hanging fruit. Dan could pluck it from the tree without getting out of his desk chair.
Or to put it another way, he lucked into it, like we lucked into our last playoff run.
He did say something that really worried me:
A few still bad-mouth the manager, and Hinch knows they exist. Those players must be washed out.
I can understand some uncertainty about Hinch for all the reasons we’ve discussed before (the odd circumstances of his hiring, his inexperience as a coach, etc.). But there are very few people on this team who have the credibility to criticize anyone right now. And this kind of kvetching just adds to the teams mental struggles. If Bickley’s comment is credible, then I would like to see those players dropped or traded to another team.
"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson
by Scrbl on Jun 29, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's your second example
about the bad mouthing of Hinch that worries me too. If this team was playing like the Dodgers, it’d be a moot point. But it sure seems like we’ve taken a few steps back in the past month. A very young team with players unsure of themselves AND their manager being fed by a few? That’s a disaster unfolding before our eyes. Yeah, I have my concerns about Hinch as I have with bosses in my own job, but there comes a time where you just put all the garbage aside and go do your job. There will be an evaluation down the road and it will be remembered who did their job and who just stood there mouthing off all day.
"Without change something sleeps inside us and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken."
by unnamedDBacksfan on Jun 29, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A very interesting piece
As much for the comments, which are the usual mix of legitimate concerns, idiotic responses [“we should have resigned Juan Cruz” – whose ERA, at 5.23, is now worse than just about every current member of the Arizona bullpen] and as scrbl noted, OTT hyperbole, that this team is the “worst ever.” As noted previously, these long-term season ticket holders appear to have the memory span of goldfish.
Unfortunately, I fear that Hall’s comment, “What’s scary is the nature of our young fan base,” is a serious mis-fire, which is probably going to be taken out of context and used as a stick to beat the franchise by the nattering nabobs, in the same way as the “organizational advocacy” one. Hall is dead on the mark, but then, so was the infamous comment by Kendrick concerning Gonzo and the ‘whispers’ – however, it’s just not necessarily something you want to say in public.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Jun 28, 2009 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
for acknowledging that the online comment section of the region’s largest newspaper contains at least some “legitimate concerns” and that Hall’s comment was, at the very least, a PR misfire.
But it’s more than that. Here’s Derrick’s full quote
What’s scary is the nature of our young fan base. We need to educate them. We need them to be loyal to the organization and not waver because of a tough season, a season where it really seems like we’ve been snake-bitten."
I’m sure if you asked DH how the team was playing, he’d say terrible or worse than expected or unacceptable or whatever, but I think it’s awfully hard to take these full remarks “out of context”. He’s insisting we’re bad because we’re unlucky (injured, snakebit)…and it’s not our fault. If anything, it’s YOUR fault for not understanding a) how good we are (trust me on this) or b) the vicissitudes of baseball.
It’s understood we’ve had significant injuries (altho you and I disagree on the magnitude), and I’d be the first say the underlying talent’s not nearly as bad as the current record, but Derrick’s lack of public accountability here is more than poor PR – it’s a little scary in terms of substance and the direction of the franchise.
Whose to blame for assorted first basemen dropping routine, chest high throws – the ghost of Brandon Webb? Whose to blame for the new manager’s 18-29 record – Jerry Colangelo? Whose to blame for the most errors in baseball – the fans? Whose to blame for bunt home runs and straight steals of home – excommunicated Bob Melvin and Rick Schu?
Gracie prattles on about player accountability, but where the hell is front office accountability? Where the hell is one goddam Dream Teamer or owner, standing in front of a microphone, saying “I fucked up”. Hell, the players are twice as accountable as their bosses, who point their fingers at underlings, fate, fans…anything but themselves.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Jun 28, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For once,
I think I agree with you :-)
The fact that DH says the “young fan base” doesn’t quite understand the game really irks me. I’m part of that young fan base. So is my boyfriend, and my brother, a lot of my classmates, and many of the people here. One thing I’ll say about most (not all) of those fans is that they realize you can be a fan and still criticize how the team is playing. I know I’m tired of watching my younger brother’s little league team out there, as are most of the members of this site.
I don’t know why they suck. I don’t know how to fix them. But I do know baseball and I know that the fans are the least to blame. At least we still show up to games.
by emilylovesthedbacks on Jun 29, 2009 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"Without change something sleeps inside us and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken."
by unnamedDBacksfan on Jun 29, 2009 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he meant young as in "under 21"
I think he meant “young” in the sense that the team has only been around for a short while, and that the majority of fans are transplants from other teams, with the limited loyalty that brings. If anything, from what I’ve seen, it tends to be those young fans, those who grew up with the Diamondbacks (or those who immigrated to this country and so never had any prior allegiance!), who tend to be more supportive of the team at the present time.
But I’m working on a whole piece about the philosophy of fandom, so I’ll save further thoughts on that topic for it!
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Jun 29, 2009 2:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For once, I think I agree with you :-)
Woo hoo!
Pls consider those previous 8429 posts “rough drafts”, before I had my thoughts really together :-)
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Jun 29, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, okay,
I’m sure I could find something in those 8400 posts that I agree with, but I haven’t been around that long. ;-)
by emilylovesthedbacks on Jun 29, 2009 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't disagree with much there
What we say in that horrific inning this afternoon was obviously nothing to do with any injuries. And yet – as you and I both noted, independently, in the GDT – the team’s quality of play seemed to improve significantly thereafter.
I think there is a problem with a lot of the fans in this town, who just don’t appreciate the difficulties of putting a winning team out every season. In any given year, basically half the teams will have losing records, and unless you have a massive budget, there will be good years and bad ones. A good chunk of the criticism on azcentral is complete BS: did you see the person still thinking we should have resigned Gonzo?
The problem with FO accountability is that it involves other people. A player screws up, he can say “I dropped the throw, and I shouldn’t have,” and no-one else gets affected. But what do you want Josh Byrnes to say: “Yes, signing Eric Byrnes was my mistake, and we should have let him leave”? What will that do to the chemistry and relationship between Byrnes and the team? As mentioned previously, you saw the backlash over Kendrick’s relatively inoffensive comments about Gonzo and the whispers. Some things it’s just best for management NOT to say anything, where the topic directly involves current roster members, even at tje expense of ‘accountability’.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Jun 29, 2009 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good note
I recognize JByrnes, in particular, is in a very awkward position, but here’s some examples of what I think they can say:
DH or Kendrick should say the recent quality of play, especially defensive fundamentals, is unacceptable. They should say (or imply) that coaching and/or preparation in that area is lacking, and that if results dont improve, there will be changes.
Why is this important? Well, the last I saw Kendrick, he was getting all indignant with skeptical reporters on the day of AJ’s hire. He was clearly on board with letting Melvin go. But fans are now in an uproar over the deteriorating play and we havent heard a peep from Ken since, which kinda begs the question if he’s holding AJ to the same standards he held Bob. I dont mean in terms of dismissal necessarily, but I think fans are starting to sense organizational expectations for AJ are lower, at least in the short term, and I think that’s fueling some of this fan anger.
No one wants shitty play, but it’s this uneasy feeling, bubbling under the surface, that Kendrick and Byrnes have conspired to hold another spring training in the middle of May – whille Derrick orchestrates his familiar interference. I think, for this season at least, after the injuries, fans want to know if we’re serious about fielding a professional baseball team – or just talking about it. I think Derrick’s lost some credibility here, and the statement of purpose should probably come from Kendrick.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Jun 29, 2009 3:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take a look at 'em, bro
These guys are ignorant to their ways…..
It’s been obvious to me that once they fired Melvin and hired…….um…… that all sense and respect was lost.
These guys don’t hustle.
Can you imagine listening to a rousing, heartfelt motivational speech in the locker room by our manager….much less the meddling GM? I’m surprised our assistant coaches just don’t turn aroudn one day and walk…..like the Aborigines…….just walk the earth for the while….wandering……until they hit water…… then turn around a walk some more….in disgust and wonderment……
" i'm sure you've been right on something at some point."
-by Larry on May 28, 2009 4:55 PM PST
by Hoytsstash on Jun 29, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because, of course
They were doing so much better under Melvin with all that ‘sense and respect’… :-)
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Jun 29, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you suggesting we compare Bob Melvin and AJ Hinch?
That’s laughable.
Are you saying that they respond better to a 34 yr old who has never been in a Major League dugout before?
And yes, in fact, they were doing SO much better under Melvin, Jim. They won the NL West and made it to the NLCS, Jim. They finished in poor fashion last year, but definitely had a shot to win the West again toward the end….until the greatest hitter in baseball came to the rival Dodgers.
They get off to a poor start this year, over-react and fire Melvin, then hire a guy named AJ Hinch. LOL.
I believe, Jim, that yes…..yes they did do better under Melvin.
1. A trip to the NCLS
2. A shot at winning the division last year until the arrival of one of the best hitters in the history of baseball to the Dodgers.
I believe a NLCS and near repeat of division champs is better than Hinch, Jim. It was a LEAP backwards.
" i'm sure you've been right on something at some point."
-by Larry on May 28, 2009 4:55 PM PST
by Hoytsstash on Jun 29, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apples and oranges
In 2007 and 2008 they had Webb averaging 20 wins per year. This year, it’s the triple-headed beast of Replacement Level Suck with two wins so far and and an ERA nearing eight. To ignore that and claim this “proves” Melvin’s superiority as a manager is dumb. In 2008, they went 62-71 after the first month: it was less Ramirez’s arrival that sunk the Diamondbacks than their own incompetence. This year, they went 12-17 under RoBoMel – so overall, in the season (162 games) before Melvin got fired, he ‘led’ them to a record of 74-88.
Firing Melvin was not the entire solution, and I do have issues with the replacement [in particularly the long contract], but it seems to me he was certain part of the problem.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Jun 29, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
but I think, in hindsight (20/20), that our front office would have evaluated the situation with a bit more professionalism in regards to firing and hiring a manager. That said, I believe a manager has a lot to do with the success of a team. As do the players and GM.
There are two very worthy candidates sitting next to him each game that must be left scratching their heads - Hale and Gibson. —to quote a great movie——“You get what we have here today”
A manager sets the tone, they demand players give effort, they notice hustle or lack thereof. Perhaps Melvin lacked those skills as well…..perhaps. But the hire was the laugher of MLB and still is.
Jim, you and I both can think of managers that would not tolerate the ho-hum efforts that have been displayed by the DBack ballclub day in and day out. Hire a “baseball” guy. One who has been in the dugout, one who can relate to the day to day grind of a ballplayer, one who has been there.
Great for opportunity, but shame on them for such a poor decision.
The knee-jerk reaction has left them open to accusations of incompetence and stupidity. And not only have the fans reacted, but its obvious the players feel ZERO sense of obligation, motivation, and hustle.
Why you put “led” in quotes in beyond me. A manager leads…..if he doesn’t -
" i'm sure you've been right on something at some point."
-by Larry on May 28, 2009 4:55 PM PST
by Hoytsstash on Jun 29, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A manager can only do so much
That why I used quotes. He is not the one out there letting ground-balls through his legs. He’s not the one casually putting up his glove in RF and letting the ball bounce off it – that’s something which Upton has been guilty of, and worse, since he came up to the majors. Bob Melvin couldn’t cure him of it – what makes you expect AJ Hinch should be able to?
That why I don’t really think managers are actually that important – they can only play the cards they have been dealt. I think the problem with the current roster is a combination of factors, which no manager, no matter who, could even begin to address.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Jun 29, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and why the hell I inadvertently put a line through most of that post
is beyond me ! LOL. Sorry, Jim.
" i'm sure you've been right on something at some point."
-by Larry on May 28, 2009 4:55 PM PST
by Hoytsstash on Jun 29, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not your fault
If you put dashes right next to a word, the formatting helpfully assumes you meant to strike it through. like this Nope, don’t see the point myself, since there’s a perfectly good ‘strike through’ button in the formatting options, but not my code!
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Jun 29, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way
I think there is a delicate balance between the front office, management, and player performance, like you said. To that end, there is no balance…..anywhere.
The Hinch contract is laughable, I agree…….ALOT
" i'm sure you've been right on something at some point."
-by Larry on May 28, 2009 4:55 PM PST
by Hoytsstash on Jun 30, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before Upton and Reynolds
blossomed this year, BoMel led essentially .500 teams (ie pythag), featuring Webb and substandard offenses. Make of that what you will. But when we talk about 2009 bad luck, I’m pretty convinced Bob suffered more than AJ has to date.
We could argue the details, but to your point that BoMel was part of the problem, I think it depends. Relative to some other managers? Sure. Relative to AJ? I’m having a pretty hard time with that. That’s not to say there havent been some underlying improvements under AJ’s watch – it’s just that witnessing the rather spectacular and concurrent decline of fundamentals makes it hard for me to reconcile those improvements with the notion AJ is responsible for any of them.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Jun 29, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
great
“Last weekend, the Diamondbacks lost the ratings battle to golf and NASCAR.”
“Ratings Battle?” uh, okay, i might agree with some parts of this article, but how did this line not make the cutting room floor.
yeah, dude, Bickley, you’re good, Nascar and golf in the same take, solid! Did you actually have to pull up some figures for that one? Way to cater to Phoenix sports fan base.
“Uh, yeh, you’re a-right. I watched the whole Nascur ‘n golf ’n stuff players but I shur fire didn’t tune into no D’Backs, they isn’t no good this yur. Hell fire!”
"Have a take and do not suck or you will get run." - Jim Rome
by jonny-yuma on Jun 28, 2009 9:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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