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Of unproductive outs - and is a walk as good as a hit for the Diamondbacks?

During the week I read something interesting by Joe Posnanski during his conversation with Bill James on why walks are under-appreciated:

This year teams that walk zero or one time win about one third of their games. If they walk two to three times it jumps up to about 45 percent. If they walk four or five times they win about 57 percent of the time. And if they walk six times or more their winning percentage is .646. Those numbers have stayed remarkably consistent for decades now.

This leaped out at me after Thursday's game, where we took seven walks off the Giants'  starter, but only converted them into one run - though we did win the game, mostly thanks to Max Scherzer. After the jump, I'll take a look at the Diamondbacks' number in the area of free passes (and a couple of others) over this season and last, to see whether we live up to the expectations of Posnanski. I'll also see what effect team strikeouts have on the win percentage for Arizona, and who leads the team in 'unproductive outs', when we combine K's and infield pop-ups.

Star-divide

Over the 223 games Arizona has played from the beginning of last season up until Thursday, here is the breakdown by the number of walks, along with the results of those games:

Walks Record Win % Hits
0 or 1 13-27 32.5% 7.88
2 or 3 29-48 37.7% 7.96
4 or 5 36-28 56.2% 8.64
6 + 30-12 71.4% 9.14

Two of those numbers are almost dead-on those projected by Posnanski - we win fewer games than expected with 2-3 walks, but more than expected when we walk six or more times. My first thought was that perhaps the increase was partly due to a increased hits [lots of walks = poor pitcher = lots of hits], so I went back and added the last column on the end - the number of hits the Diamondbacks averaged in those games. While there is something of an increase, it only works out to about an extra one and a quarter hits between the low and high categories - which doesn't seem enough to more than double the win percentage.

As a contrast, I thought it might be fun to do the same thing for strikeouts. Mark Reynolds, in particular, has come in for a lot of criticism because of his strikeouts, so is there a correlation between the number of K's in a game and our win percentage? I divided the 223 games up into roughly-equal quarters: five strikeouts or less (42 games); six or seven (59); eight to ten (68); and eleven or more (54). Here's the same table as above, divided up into those sections:

Strikeouts Record Win % Hits
0-5 23-19
54.8% 9.24
6-7 33-26
55.9% 8.10
8-10 32-36
47.1% 7.87
11 + 20-34
37.0% 8.59

While there is still some correlation betweek low strikeouts and win percentage, it's a lot less pronounced - the effect only really becomes significant, when you get up into double-digit K's or more, even though the hits also start going back up [this may be due to extra-inning games, which I should perhaps have filtered out of the data. Oh, well...]. This perhaps reflects contests against a really dominant pitcher and/or staff, but otherwise, there's little evidence that strikeouts are 'bad'.

This ties in with other research on the topic, such as a great Baseball Prospectus article Just Another Out?, in which Ryan Wilkins looks at the correlation between strikeouts, run production and various other measures of offensive and pitching production. Or, as far as hitters go, the lack thereof, since here's a summary of Ryan's conclusions on the topic. Might be worth holding on to this for the next time someone belabors Reynolds with the strikeout stick.

There is virtually no positive correlation between a team's strikeout totals and its runs-scored totals. When it comes to offense, an out is an out is an out. On an individual level, the evidence against strikeouts as the scourge of the earth only gets more damning... [Oh, let's give this next sentence the prominence it deserves]

No matter how you slice it, it just doesn't appear that strikeouts have much of an effect on a team's — or an individual's — ability to produce runs.

They may be frustrating, but there just doesn't seem to be data to show that the strikeout is worse than any other kind of failure to reach base. While the 'productive out' may not be possible when you don't put the ball in play [dropped strike threes excepted], this is negated by the seriously detrimental effect of grounding into a double-play.

And, of course, there are other unproductive ways of being retired - the infield pop-up would be the most obvious case, and Mark Reynolds has massively improved his numbers there, dropping from 14% in 2008, all the way to 4% [league average this year is 13%]. Someone suggested that we combine the numbers for those and K's, and see what the totals are for "unproductive outs". Note, it's not correct just to add the numbers together, since K% is based on all at-bats while IF% is a percentage of fly-balls. Therefore it's wrong to say that 38% of Reynolds' at-bats are unproductive, and I'll slap anyone who does. But we're talking quick and dirty here, so it's exactly what I'm doing...

K% IF% Tot %
Chris Young 25% 32% 57%
Chris Snyder 21% 19% 40%
Justin Upton 24% 14% 38%
Mark Reynolds 34% 4% 38%
Eric Byrnes 12% 23% 35%
NL Average 18% 13% 31%
Chad Tracy 11% 18% 29%
Stephen Drew 18% 10% 28%
Miguel Montero 19% 6% 25%
Felipe Lopez 17% 5% 22%
Augie Ojeda 9% 11% 20%
Gerardo Parra 18% 0% 18%

So, when you combine these two areas, Mark Reynolds is not actually all that much ahead of league average. No surprise Chris Young tops the chart, but with the recent signs of a revival in his fortune, it'll be interesting revisit this chart in a month or two and see if/how things have changed.

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Great work

but a few thoughts:

1) Strikeouts over the long term probably turn out to be just another out, but the effects concern the short term. When a guy strikes out instead of making contact, that is a nearly 100% solid out, no way to change the outcome situation. Now look at Friday’s Yankee/Mets game: Rodriguez pops out on what should have ended the game, but because the ball was in play there was a chance it would be misplayed. Of course it was, and the Yankees won.

Obviously that’s anecdotal evidence, but I’d be curious to see what the percentage a batted in play “out” actually converts into an out. Over the long term I’m sure it’s nearly 100%, but the difference (especially when multiplied by the thousands of games that have been played) would produce much more dramatic results.

In other words, although a strikeout might not kill a team’s chances to win anymore than a flyout (unless someone is on third with less than two outs, I suppose) over thousands and thousands of games, the strikeout, I would assume, produces a considerably less likely chance of being misplayed, and therefore turning into a non-out.

2) The Diamondbacks’ inability to capitalize on walks less than four might simply because the team is bad at putting balls into play. There’s not much a guy who walked to first can do if the next batters can’t create an opportunity for him to move.

3) Ponies.

Good stuff, though. It’s a subject I’ve wondered about, considering the strikeout problems some of the guys have.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 15, 2009 12:23 AM EDT reply actions  

"...the team is bad at putting balls into play."

Go figure. LOL.

" i'm sure you've been right on something at some point."
-by Larry on May 28, 2009 4:55 PM PST

by Hoytsstash on Jun 15, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

intangibles

nice analysis, but you also have to consider the non-stat intangibles of a strikeout versus anything else, a flyout, groundout, what have you. at least you make contact in those situations and can mosey back to the dugout, whereas a strikeout can be a slump-inducing killer if you lump enough of them together. granted, enough flyouts, groundouts, etc. lumped together might do the same thing, but psychologically I would imagine it’s easier to get over the fact that you’re hitting them right at ’em rather than not making contact at all.

"Have a take and do not suck or you will get run." - Jim Rome

by jonny-yuma on Jun 15, 2009 1:22 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, but...

38% of Reynolds’ at-bats are unproductive!

by Azreous on Jun 15, 2009 3:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Go figure

" i'm sure you've been right on something at some point."
-by Larry on May 28, 2009 4:55 PM PST

by Hoytsstash on Jun 15, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Quick and mis-leading?

I thought this was a great article, until you got to the analysis of unproductive outs, then I think it got very misleading:

1) It is easy to (incorrectly) infer from the table above that if 38% of Mark Reynold’s outs are “unproductive” (which isn’t even accurate), then the other 62% are productive outs (which isn’t even close to true). Worse, you might incorrectly infer that the major league average is 69% productive outs (also untrue).

2) The quick and dirty analysis is VERY slanted towards making Mark Reynolds look good, as he is abnormally low in IF pop-ups as a % of his fly outs. Since this number is overstated when added directly to strikeouts, it makes Reynolds # of unproductive outs look lower (better) than it actually is

Finally, I’m not sure what soco means when he says “Strikeouts over the long term probably turn out to be just another out, but the effects concern the short term:” There is no “long term” in baseball – you start over every three outs. His example in the Yankees/Mets game is an example of one of the very, very few times an IF pop-up made a difference. I’m sure we could all come up with at least 10 rally killing DP exmaples if we thought hard enough. The statistics say the DPs must make up for the errors/productive outs, or the number of runs scored would be significantly different.

Regarding intangibles – I wonder if CY feels better about his at bats than Mark Reynolds since Reynolds is striking about twice as often.

by Craig from Az on Jun 15, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions  

What I'm

talking about is the nature that these numbers are derived. If you try to come up with statistics at an at-bat basis, then they become skewed, so instead people look at it by seasons or all time.

My point was trying to find what the possibility of an out being converted to a non-out., and in this case a non-out to mean getting on base in a situation where an out would normally be made.

For foul outs, this is impossible because even if the fielder fails to convert the out, the batter still cannot get on base.

For non strikeout outs, it might be rare, but not as rare as you might think. The short form formula (as near as I can think at 10 in the morning with a cold) would simply be all of the errors committed in the time frame divided by all the outs in the time frame.

Strikeouts, on the other hand, require very specific circumstances to be converted to a non-out. How often does someone reach safely on a dropped third strike? If we knew that number, we would divide it by the number of strikeouts in the same time frame.

I’m fairly certain that the possibility of catching a lucky break on an out put into play will be much greater than the possibility of getting lucky with a dropped third strike. Over the long term, though, lucky almost always goes away, hence why it would be important only on the short term.

Funny, Brown doesn't offer a degree in slut!

by soco on Jun 15, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's a third set of outs

Between productive outs and unproductive ones. Those are outs which don’t have a chance to be either, because there’s no-one on base. More than half of all at-bats will be with nobody on, and would not fall into either ‘productive’ or ‘unproductive’ because they can’t advance a runner, and so are just outs. However, the question of whether someone is on-base when they get to the plate is largely going to be out of a batter’s hands.

I defintely don’t claim the ‘unproductive outs’ analysis is anything but a quick and dirty scheme, to give you a vague gauge of such things. The key thing is the text in large font – that strikeouts are not statistically any different from other outs as far as run production.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 15, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Strikeouts, as a PA end result, are bad

compared to the alternatives – which are making contact (ie hits and outs,etc) or walking/hbp. Compared to “outs” made by contact, strikeouts are still less productive, but not dramatically so. GIDP are counterbalanced (and then some) by baserunners advancing via contact plus hitters reaching on hit ball errors. It’s better to hit the ball.

The key thing is the text in large font – that strikeouts are not statistically any different from other outs as far as run production

This is the interesting part, because here K’s arent an end result but more of a dynamic process that correlates to a bunch of good production factors. Guys who strike out alot tend to hit more homers for example. Working deep counts leads to more walks as well as whiffs.

There are correlations there, and players who whiff a lot and who dont drive the ball or who dont walk – well, by and large, they dont play.

Strikeout as isolated end result (ie all else equal) =bad
Strikeout as dynamic tradeoff ( for those who do damage) = not so bad

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Jun 15, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Craig

I agree with #1.
I agree with #2.
I also agree that we are splitting hairs here. The line-up we have is unproductive and inefficient, no matter which way we flip it. It seems, at times, are guys just simpy aren’t good enough to play at this level. And that is the most disheartening. Forget “outs and non-outs”. the % of this and that. If the best guy we got strikes-out in almost half of his at-bats we got some soul-searching to do…..forget OBP, SLG %, BBs…..

" i'm sure you've been right on something at some point."
-by Larry on May 28, 2009 4:55 PM PST

by Hoytsstash on Jun 15, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

intangibles

i didn’t want to infer that baseball is solely pschological-feelings-squishy mumbo jumbo, I just took exception to the notion that strikeouts don’t affect a team’s ability to produce runs when you’re talking outside of stats where the mental aspect that can be slump-inducing or prolonging over time.

"Have a take and do not suck or you will get run." - Jim Rome

by jonny-yuma on Jun 15, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting about the walks, Jim.

Problem is, obviously, that we don’t have hitters on our team. Teams that take advantage of walks are teams that can hit. No different than when the DBacks had guys on their team that could mash….they took advantage of mistakes. We don’t have that this year.
Nowadays, DBacks walk (non-hit), and welcome a trend of non-hitting after the walk. Although I’d love to take advantage of the drop third strike to reach first base, cuz we all know that happens a TON at the pro level….

" i'm sure you've been right on something at some point."
-by Larry on May 28, 2009 4:55 PM PST

by Hoytsstash on Jun 15, 2009 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

You missed the point

Arizona’s win percentage with regard to the number of walks doesn’t seem any different from the overall figures. We ‘take advantage’ of walks and convert them into wins at about the same rate as baseball in general, it seems.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Jun 15, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps that we are looking our bullpen square in the face right now?

" i'm sure you've been right on something at some point."
-by Larry on May 28, 2009 4:55 PM PST

by Hoytsstash on Jun 15, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

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