Diamondbacks vs. Tucson: the saga continues
by Jim McLennan on Mar 25, 2009 11:57 PM EDT
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At the time of writing, the Diamondbacks are playing an evening game over in Surprise tonight, so no recap as yet: not going well though, with the Rangers 4-0 up in the bottom of the fourth - seven hits and two walks off Jon Garland thus far. Instead, here's the latest in what seems to be a developing feud between the team and Pima County Administrator Chuck Huckelberry, who wrote a letter to Sports and Tourism Authority Chairman Tom Tracy. The latter, while acknowledging that there is no chance the D-backs will stay at Tucson Electric Park, is working on a proposal for a new facility - probably closer to Phoenix [Marana is one possibility, a good half-hour less travel time], and will be submitting a proposal, along with other potential sites, to the team any day now.
Huckleberry is not so optimistic, saying in his letter, "There's no way we can afford to do anything for the Diamondbacks because frankly, they are leaving a perfectly good stadium that could have another team. Perhaps the Rockies and the Diamondbacks are a lost cause, and what we ought to focus on is filling the gap with youth and amateur sports until we can pick up three or four teams out of Florida." He also expressed frustration the team were looking elsewhere when the county had spent $600K on TEP, said the county was in no position to put further money in, and 'should not have to subsidize a team that earns $3 million in profit from spring training, while the county gets just $500,000 in revenue.'
The team was none too happy when they learned of the letter's content - not least because they weren't even given the courtesy of a CC on it - and we've been passed a copy of the response which they fired back to Chuck. That's after the jump, along with some thoughts:
March 23, 2009
C.H. Huckelberry, County Administrator
County Administrator’s Office
Pima County Governmental Center
130 W. Congress
Tucson, AZ 85701-1317
Dear Mr. Huckelberry:
Please consider this an official response to your letter addressed to Mr. Tom Tracy and dated March 12, 2009. I would like to express disappointment and offer corrections on behalf of the Arizona Diamondbacks. The letter, which we were surprisingly not copied on, offered several false assumptions and exaggerations.
You expressed your displeasure with an announcement of our intention to leave Tucson, when in fact, that announcement has never taken place. We have been working with your local Sports and Tourism Authority on solutions to remain in Tucson. As we have noted publicly time after time, it has been our desire all along to remain in Southern Arizona, should we have success in attracting two more teams. It is becoming clearer as each day passes that this challenge does not present any short term solutions.
The RFP process that we are currently managing is a necessary step to gather all facts from interested parties in a time-lined and controlled manner. We will have a better idea at the end of this month of how many legitimate options are in play, including Tucson.
You also compare TEP to the new facilities in Glendale and Goodyear and make a point that there are no differences. We would beg to differ with you as would any objective viewer, but we are not here to debate facility shortcomings. Factually again, we have never pointed to the state of our facility as a reason to have to move. We have been clear and consistent that the issue is simply the number of teams in the area. It was difficult operating with just three teams, and it is now nearly impossible to operate in a competitive environment with the Diamondbacks and Rockies.
Though we had no intention of criticizing TEP or the practice facilities, you made it a point to include a recent $600,000 investment in your communication to Mr. Tracy. We appreciate the new carpet and paint this off-season, but question the end cost. And, as we have shared and pleaded with the County in recent years, the fields have never been maintained to adequate levels, and quite honestly, provided risk and caused injuries. We were told “no” in years past when we simply asked for torn or missing windscreens to be replaced, building expansions, or new carpeting, which still has not been installed on the minor league side. Our Triple-A affiliate, who along with the White Sox, has abandoned Southern Arizona, was extremely dissatisfied with the field conditions over the last several summers. Our baseball operations staff has had serious concerns over the field’s quality, which came into play at the start of this spring when our number one draft pick from 2007 complained about the pitching mound firmness and packing, and then twisted an ankle and fell in the midst of his first pitch.
Your letter implies that these facility concerns will only worsen when you state, “I have directed staff not to spend further money on improvements unless we are assured that the Diamondbacks will complete and extend their contract at TEP or we are actually negotiating contracts for new American or Japanese major league teams.” As uncomfortable a statement as that is, continued maintenance of the field and facility is required under our agreement. I should add that these threats do not work to your advantage when trying to attract other teams.
As for the $3 million that you claim are our profits from spring training, it is important to note that we have made less than $1 million in profit nearly every year after expenses and your larger share of revenues. Those numbers that you referred to from the RFP were gross revenue numbers. Spring training has never been lucrative for our organization, but we have never complained. What has been more important to us regarding spring training is that our players are properly preparing for the upcoming season without any disadvantages when it comes to competition, travel, accommodations and/or field quality.
We have always been, and will continue to be, good partners Mr. Huckelberry. I would have expected a phone call or some direct contact on your part to get clarification before going public with your letter. It is clear to us now that you have moved on and are not seeking a solution for keeping us in Southern Arizona. I also assume you have not been working with the City to help keep the Rockies in Tucson, as they continue to become more and more impatient.
You have asked the Pima County Sports and Tourism Authority and other officials and business leaders involved to focus on youth and Japanese teams rather than the Diamondbacks. While this saddens us because of our connection and history to your great city, it is a reality of the situation at hand. We understand the difficulty in getting teams to relocate, as we have tried and failed with every organization that was a possible fit. We are also truly sorry that you have been unsuccessful in retaining teams, persuading others to join us, and maintaining Major League-quality facilities.
Sincerely,
Derrick M. Hall
President and CEO
Arizona Diamondbacks
C: The Honorable Chairman and Members, Pima County Board of Supervisors
Hank Atha, Deputy County Administrator for Community and Economic Development
Tom Moulton, Tourism and Economic Development Director
Chris Bartos, Stadium District Director
Dan Schneider, Executive Director, Pima County Sports and Tourism Authority
Don Haskell, President, Southern Arizona Sports Foundation
Timothy Buzard, Sr. Vice President of Administration, Chicago White Sox
The Diamondbacks are in a difficult situation with regard to the Tucson situation, being the 'local' team. The White Sox and Rockies would suffer little or no penalty to their fan-base or local image, and so can go wherever they want in Arizona, based purely on what makes the best sense - be that logical, fiscal or baseball-based. Not quite the case for the D-backs who run the risk of alienating a significant portion of their target market if it's perceive that they are 'abandoning' southern Arizona. Matters are, of course, not helped there by the loss of the team's Triple-A affiliate to Reno, even though this was something almost entirely outside their control [the Sidewinders being a privately-held concern]
They can either stay in Tucson, and be completely marginalized - if, as is almost inevitably expected, the Rockies bail from Hi Corbett and head north for the Valley, as fast as they can work out a way to do so. Or they can make alternative arrangements, nearer Phoenix, and take the inevitable PR hit from Tucson fans, who are understandably feeling increasingly disconnected from their team. [Indeed, it took direct action by President Hall to rescue the Opening Day shuttle up from Tucson for Opening Day, which almost got dropped too] It's pretty much a no-win situation, and there's basically no potential resolution which will make everyone happy.
It could conceivably have been avoided. Back last July, the Arizona Legislature had the chance to give the then-newly created Pima County Sports and Tourism Authority, the ability to raise taxes for maintenance and improvement on Hi Corbett and TEP - which its Maricopa County equivalent has been able to do for years. But the lawmakers adjourned their session without doing so, and since then, it looks like the window of opportunity has passed, especially in the current economic climate. The timetable to look for additional teams was suddenly accelerated when the White Sox opted to break their contract [does anyone know exactly what happened to the $5m million they paid?], though it does seem Pima were sitting on their butts while Maricopa siphoned off all the teams looking to get out of Florida.
That said, there's two ways Tucson can deal with the situation. They can whine with thinly-veiled threats about the iniquity of it all, like career civil-servant Chuck Amuck, who has been (non-elected) supervisor for 15 years, and gets an annual salary of $230K. Or they can get off their butts and pitch, not only the Diamondbacks, but other teams: what about the Cubs, who seem to be keen to get out of Mesa? Or there was the suggestion of getting some of the Japanese league teams to train in Arizona? Mind you, these positive moves seem unlikely under the reign of Citizen Chuck, since he seems to be no baseball fan, having declared that the Sidewinders wouldn’t be missed and that the county could make more money holding a few summer rock concerts... With leadership like that, getting the hell out of the county is probably not a bad idea for the D-backs.
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Ugh....
Chuckelberry is such a freaking doofus.
We are truly in the presense of greatness here…-- unnamedDBacksfan
I actually
went to Middle School with his niece. She was smart.
Insert witty and/or humorous signature here.
by DbacksSkins on Mar 26, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
The Reds are moving here next year right?
Too bad they can’t go to Tuscon. The whole Japan route sounds good though. More alienation of fans means more chance I can sneak up to better seats after purchasing the five dollar tickets ;)
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy
"I'd rather hit than have sex."- Reggie Jackson
"Obviously your not a golfer." - The Dude
Yeah
they’re going to join Cleveland in Goodyear. I wouldn’t be so sure about the Japanese training, though, unless they can lure more than one team. Yuma used to have the Yukult Swallows and the Padres, but when the latter left the Swallows weren’t far behind.
I am Shiva the destroyer, your harbinger of doom this evening.
Snap.
...Is it Opening Day yet?
It would be poetic if it didn't suck so much (RIP Pushing Daisies...)
by emilylovesthedbacks on Mar 26, 2009 1:07 PM EDT reply actions
Grounds for Divorce
Spring training has never been lucrative for our organization, but we have never complained. What has been more important to us regarding spring training is that our players are properly preparing for the upcoming season without any disadvantages when it comes to competition, travel, accommodations and/or field quality.
This is the cornerstone of the Diamondbacks’ disengenuous PR campaign, the idea that competitive athletic concerns trump financial opportunism. I’m not saying Tucson is a great partner or there arent issues with the field, etc, but it’s hard to reconcile Mr Hall’s pious, practically “non-profit” posturing here with his poorly veiled Camelback Ranch Envy earlier this month. Here’s some of what he said in Jim’s groundbreaking interview, presumably about Gila River:
I have envisioned all along a private source of financing. There are interested third parties…
This complex would be a wonderful addition to the Cactus League…it would actually pump money into the economy and create jobs.
The cities understand fully what economic impact spring training has on their local businesses and taxes.
A vibrant facility can have a huge effect. The City of Mesa claims the Cubs bring $20-35 million a spring.
I would also attempt to lure my good friends from the Hall of Fame to operate a year-round Hall of Fame West at a new complex, should we leave Tucson
Does this sound like someone primarily concerned with travel or safety issues and carpet at TEP? Later, Mr Hall gets much closer to the truth, divuging:
I am concerned about the support there. We have some great fans there (including my in-laws), but they just aren’t showing up. We drew 4,000 and 5,000 for the first two weekend games…
That’s the issue. They cant charge higher prices because it’s Tucson and they dont draw well for a variety of reasons. They dont make as much money in The Old Pueblo as they could upstate, and that’s what’s driving 99% of this. Money.
Riddle me this. In a fantasy world,where let’s say everything else is geopolitically equal to today, but the Tohono O’odham could grant the Dbacks the magnificent S Tucson stadium of their dreams – guaranteeing 10K every game at higher prices – do you think the Dbacks would stay? Even if they were the only Tucson team and had to travel a bunch? Under those circumstances, I think they’d grab it in a second. The travel is secondary. The claim other teams send their B teams to Tucson is secondary. The primary issue is the Dbacks dont currently generate enough revenue in Tucson to suit their investors and see no light at the end of the tunnel. They see Camelback Ranch and it’s not the medical facilities they envy. Hell, TEP is adjacent to a big hospital. They envy 11K fans paying $20-30 a pop.
Hall says TEP practice fields have been a problem for a long time. If you had $50M invested in players, would you even allow them onto unsafe or sub-MLB facilities for years and years? He says they’ve “pleaded” with the county, but c’mon. Is that all you’d do? Wouldnt you either a) fix the fields yourself (to protect human capital) and bill the county, or b) sue the county for onngoing material breach? One minute, Mr Hall’s hellbent on relocating to gain every conceivable competitive on field advantage, the next he (and his predecessors) have let their players skate by on what sounds like gravel sandlots for years?
Sounds like Huckleberry has gotten under Derrick’s skin, but the aside about Parker’s twisted ankle being on the County is an unbelievable potshot and complete distraction. Who’s really responsible for Parker’s safety here? Primarily responsible? Ditto the sniping about carpet and torn windscreens – this reminds me of stuff that comes out after a couple’s decided to divorce for some other reason – she burned the toast, he left the toilet seat up. Blah, blah, blah.
The house in Tucson is adequate but the marriage has been dead for years. This divorce is about money.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
I think
the Dbacks should never be allowed to make any sort of a profit, ever, because money (and Derrick Hall) is evil. They should start playing baseball for free.
Insert witty and/or humorous signature here.
Sarcasm
works better when you nail the crux of the piece, which in your lightspeed twittery world, you’ve once again managed to miss. Nowhere in the five plus paragraphs do I suggest “the Dbacks shouldnt be allowed to make any sort of profit” or should play for free. Your inaccurate, snotty summary serves no purpose other than to add to a mindbending tally of rushed, ill considered comments.
This was about Mr Hall managing issues, talking out of both sides of his mouth.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Mar 26, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow. Now you've managed to insult and piss ME off, too,
and now I’m going to have to break my own self-imposed rule about trying not to argue with you.
No, it’s NOT about Derrick Hall “talking out of both sides of his mouth”. It’s about YOUR obsessive vendetta against the current Diamondbacks’ management over this twisted worldview that you have that they only care about money, as if that’s some sort of mortal sin for a for-profit corporation — a view that you further use to try and justify your irrational rantings born actually out of a tired grudge that’s now almost five years old. Nearly every single comment (and even your handle) you make around here is a variation on that theme and/or an explicit or implicit unfavorable comparison to the good ol’ days under philanthropist and saint Jerry Colangelo, who didn’t care about money and never ever lied to poor little you. I truly believe that if Derrick Hall looked out his window and said, “I think it’s going to rain today”, you would immediately rush to post a comment on the Snakepit or an entry on your blog about how sunny it is outside, and accuse the Diamondbacks of using the threat of rain as an excuse to raise prices. No? Not all about the money with you?
How about some key quotes?
…the idea that competitive athletic concerns trump financial opportunism…
They cant charge higher prices because…
They dont make as much money in The Old Pueblo as they could upstate, and that’s what’s driving 99% of this. Money.
…dont currently generate enough revenue in Tucson to suit their investors…
If this isn’t about money to you, I’ll eat my shoe — yet, as usual, you couch it in terms that make it seem like you’re just a white knight, trying to force compliance with your own holier-than-thou moral code. Bullshit. It’s ALWAYS about money with you, because you see it as the easiest argument against the current FO.
They see Camelback Ranch and it’s not the medical facilities they envy. Hell, TEP is adjacent to a big hospital.
….I assume you realize that this is an idiotic argument prima facie, but you ARE aware that Kino has a TERRIBLE reputation and is still primarily a mental hospital, right?
From the horse’s mouth:
Ok, my ‘word of mouth’. I’ve had surgery there twice and have been hospitalized there three times. (Dang insurance rules!!). The doctors were inept (I almost died from a routine hysterectomy) gave me incorrect meds, left me in a room without a call button (directly after surgery) for five hours and no nurse, and discharged me less that 10 hours after a heart attack put me in the ICU. They SUCK!
But that’s not really a primary argument in this case. You go on:
In a fantasy world, where let’s say everything else is geopolitically equal to today, but the Tohono O’odham could grant the Dbacks the magnificent S Tucson stadium of their dreams – guaranteeing 10K every game at higher prices – do you think the Dbacks would stay? Even if they were the only Tucson team and had to travel a bunch? Under those circumstances, I think they’d grab it in a second. The travel is secondary. The claim other teams send their B teams to Tucson is secondary.
Here, you’re completely minimizing the travel issue and acting like it isn’t even a problem. As the only other remaining Tucson-based team, perhaps we should find out what Rockies fans think?
From here:
Lineups
It is getting frustrating to never see our starting lineup opposing another teams, we either don’t take our regulars to Phoenix or they don’t bring theirs to Tuscon. Yesterday we had more opening days starters playing in the minors then on the ST team
by Chacinisthefuture on Mar 26, 2009 12:38 PM MST
And here:
Seems like
It is a product of being in Tucson, the guys that are locked in to a roster spot (starters) don’t want to deal with the 2+ hour bus rides between Tucson and Phoenix and feel like they can get their work in during local minor league games. Whether it is as effective for them or the rest of the team, who knows. I think that they’ll put a better product on the field for fans that make it to spring training by being in Phoenix, closer to the other teams.
by Hizilla on Mar 26, 2009 12:50 PM MST
It’s not just Derrick Hall talking out of his ass. It’s a serious issue inherent to (soon) being the only team training in Tucson, and everybody seems to understand that but you.
…the aside about Parker’s twisted ankle being on the County is an unbelievable potshot and complete distraction…
How the Hell is it an “unbelievable potshot and complete distraction” to provide an empirical example of a point you’re trying to make? It is, but only when Derrick Hall does it.
He says they’ve "pleaded" with the county, but c’mon. Is that all you’d do? Wouldnt you either a) fix the fields yourself (to protect human capital) and bill the county, or b) sue the county for onngoing material breach?
He DOES note that they’re violating their contract (though legal means should never be the first resort):
Your letter implies that these facility concerns will only worsen when you state, "I have directed staff not to spend further money on improvements unless we are assured that the Diamondbacks will complete and extend their contract at TEP or we are actually negotiating contracts for new American or Japanese major league teams." As uncomfortable a statement as that is, continued maintenance of the field and facility is required under our agreement.
Also, Hall doesn’t mention specifically how long it’s been a problem, so we have no way of knowing whether it’s something that’s gotten much worse in the last year or two. He only mentions “the last several summers”. Hall goes on:
Factually again, we have never pointed to the state of our facility as a reason to have to move.
A contention that you deride as,
stuff that comes out after a couple’s decided to divorce for some other reason – she burned the toast, he left the toilet seat up. Blah, blah, blah.
while presumably conceding that it’s probably true — but hey, it’s only the motivation that counts, right? Nevermind whether or not it’s a correct charge.
Now, let’s compare the tone of the comment you made in this thread with one you made about the Cubs just days ago:
They can talk grapefruit all they want but I doubt they’d seriously consider it. The xtra travel. It rains. Teams are leaving in droves. What FL municipality will build this grand facility for them any more than Mesa would?
Does Fitch ill prepare the Cubs or put em at a competitive disadvantage up north? Hard to argue when you had the best record in the league.
Does Mesa put the Cubs at an economic disadvantage? Hard to argue, after boasting you’re the highest revenue Cactus outfit.
Mesa’s a great fit for the Cubs and they know it. Established fan base that loves the traditional atmosphere. 39th most populous US City (between Sacramento and Cleveland). Mesa could land another team in a heartbeat (albeit not as popular as the Cubs) in the unlikely event push ever came to shove. I doubt either side wants that to happen.
What? No condemnation of the Cubs’ insidious dishonesty, despite your very own assertion that nothing they said was true? No such poisonous vitriol is used against them, even though they affect you more directly — they’re demanding public funds rather than looking for private financing. Nope, your hatred is reserved for the Dbacks’ FO alone — it’s not the sin that you hate. It’s the sinner.
Now that I’ve called you out on your bullshit, you resort to condescending ad hominem attacks with the same “piety” that you hypocritically accuse Hall of having. Typical; in your case, it’s to be expected — only you usually wait for Jim to respond before starting to insult people.
which in your lightspeed twittery world
I have ADD, and thanks for highlighting that little fact with the sensitivity that you’re famous for. Deal with it.
Your inaccurate, snotty summary serves no purpose other than to add to a mindbending tally of rushed, ill considered comments.
Pot, meet kettle. THIS is rich, coming from the Snark King himself. Without context, one might just as easily think you were describing your OWN original post. I might also remind you that if my terrible comments are so offensive to you, you’re under no obligation to read them. Just ask foulpole.
I can let slide stupid, biased comments from you — they’re the norm. What I CAN’T let slide are stupid, biased comments accompanied with completely unnecessary personal attacks on me.
Insert witty and/or humorous signature here.
by DbacksSkins on Mar 26, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
...woah.
...Is it Opening Day yet?
It would be poetic if it didn't suck so much (RIP Pushing Daisies...)
by emilylovesthedbacks on Mar 26, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah....
Wow, ‘Hacks got me pretty mad, pretty quickly. It’s like he’s a Sith lord or something.
Insert witty and/or humorous signature here.
+1 for the reference
(Now, see, ’Hacks? THIS is a comment that “serves no purpose other than to add to a mindbending tally of rushed, ill considered comments”.)
Insert witty and/or humorous signature here.
Note to self
never make ’Skins truly angry.
I am Shiva the destroyer, your harbinger of doom this evening.
Agreed
I will admit, though, I’m a bit disappointed that someone else has been crowned as the Snark King. I think there were a lot of good candidates for the throne, too.
"Scott, are you evil, or are you really happy?"
Yeah, there were horses,
and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.
Insert witty and/or humorous signature here.
by DbacksSkins on Mar 26, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I've been meaning to talk to you about that, Phil.
You should find yourself a safehouse or a relative close by. Lay low for a while, because you’re probably wanted for murder.
Here's the reason
I was pissed, skins. This is a big set of issues that Jim’s done a terrific job presenting and pursuing. I slept on what he wrote and then responded with what I thought was an insightful post, cutting through some of the noise. It’s fine you disagree with the content (get to that later), but mine was not at all a kneejerk reaction. Honestly, I thought it was one of the better, more focused criticisms I’ve made.
I didnt, and dont, expect everyone to agree with it. What I did expect, at least from someone who passed thru Georgetown, was for the tone and depth of dissent to roughly correspond with that of the post. I let “predictable” go, because you’re right, there’s truth to that – I’m often focused on Derrick and can laugh that off (or should). But your second comment, implying my main point was the Dbacks should play for free, money and Derrick Hall are evil, or that the club should not be allowed to make a profit, really annoyed me. It’s inaccurate, sloppy and, along with your histrionic rebuttal, suggests you’re unable (or unwilling) to identify my core assertion, let alone seriously address it.
You’re letting off 5 yrs of steam (let it out, big fellah!) and engendering sympathy, apparently, but not making cogent points.
and now I’m going to have to break my own self-imposed rule about trying not to argue with you.
Self-imposed rule? What a crock. In the last 48 hrs you’ve initiated arguments with me here, here and here . I’m not saying they’re knock-down drag outs, and I dont otherwise mind, but the premise you’re some innocent bystander minding your own business on this site is horseshit, and everyone here knows it.
No, it’s NOT about Derrick Hall "talking out of both sides of his mouth.
My entire post detailed what I saw as inconsistency in some of Mr Hall’s comments. If you dont agree with my assessment (like, Jim, below) fine, but if you honestly dont think that’s what my post is fundamentally about, that instead I’m furious the team doesnt play for free, or I harbor deep seated hatred for Derrick that disables my capacity for rational thought, then you do me a disservice, amigo. Maybe what’s been disabled is your capacity to stomach it. Food for thought.
It’s about YOUR obsessive vendetta against the current Diamondbacks’ management over this twisted worldview that you have that they only care about money.
Never said that. I said: “The travel is secondary. The claim other teams send their B teams to Tucson is secondary. The primary issue is the Dbacks dont currently generate enough revenue in Tucson…”
- and –
“I’m not saying Tucson is a great partner or there arent issues with the field…”
I’m hardly OBSESSED with $ to the exclsuon of everything else. Yet you go on:
No? Not all about the money with you?…If this isn’t about money to you, I’ll eat my shoe
Total strawman. Of course, it’s primarily about money. That’s my thesis, Sherlock! Dont act like you’ve revealed my secret feelings on the issue :-) Perhaps I went overboard saying it’s 99% about money. I’ll retract that. My position is that revenue is the primary driver here and the other stuff is secondary. (The other stuff, like travel, is related to money and we could talk about that as well.)
…and on:
It’s ALWAYS about money with you, because you see it as the easiest argument against the current FO.
Its OFTEN about money with me, because a) it’s OFTEN about money with them, and, more importantly, b) they go to unusual lengths to PRETEND that it’s not
…and on:
It’s not just Derrick Hall talking out of his ass.
It’s [travel’s] a serious issue inherent to (soon) being the only team training in Tucson, and everybody seems to understand that but you.
1. I never said Derrick was the only one talking out of his ass..
2. I said travel was an issue, and I dont put much stock in fans moaning about the competitive disadvantage of it. They generally have no idea.
I dont have time to rebut all of your hyperbole, skins, but would add that I never mentioned Colangelo, or anything bad about a ballteam making a profit here. You projected ALL of that, repeatedly, then have the nerve to bitch about ‘irrational rantings’.
<How the Hell is [Parker’s twisted ankle] it an "unbelievable potshot and complete distraction" to provide an empirical example of a point you’re trying to make? It is, but only when Derrick Hall does it.
No, because the Diamondbacks are clearly responsible for the safety and well-being of their prized recruits. DH asserts that Huckleberry’s been disingenuous with him, so he’s being disingenuous back, making exaggerated claims to make Huckleberry look bad. Huckleberry may deserve it to some extent, I really dont know. But in terms of tone, I’ll stick w/ the acrimonious divorce analogy.
What? No condemnation of the Cubs’ insidious dishonesty, despite your very own assertion that nothing they said was true? No such poisonous vitriol is used against them
Poisonous vitriol? Get a grip. Nothing I said here compares to the barrage of misplaced crap you’ve flung my way (not that I care beyond the academic point). I evidently ripped Kenney and the Cubs sufficiently for an independent ‘pitter (I forget who) to simply respond :“Owned”. Back here, no less an adversary than Mr McLennan politely offers I made several good points. You’re looking more and more like the angry fringe voice, phil. Sorry.
Now that I’ve called you out on your bullshit, you resort to condescending ad hominem attacks…
You’re referring to my first response upthread? If you think your first pair of prissy tweets “called out my bullshit”, then you suffer from something worse than ADD – delusions of grandeur. This endless rebuttal establishes you dont read or analyze well – at least not when you’re pissed – and worse in my rubric, you liberally dish it out but obviously cant take it.
THIS is rich, coming from the Snark King himself.
I think the difference is, there’s usually substance behind my snark. Or if not substance, at least a modicum of analysis and thought. How would you like it if you wrote a fairly detailed negative piece here on the Rockies,say, and instead of rebutting it point by point, I just blurted out, “Predictable skins garbage. Hates everything about the Rockies. Always has, always will.” It’s trollish, intrinsically insulting and annoying, dude.
I can let slide stupid, biased comments from you — they’re the norm.
ha ha. Above the fray, as always :-) Hope that made you feel better. Seriously, I’m not as mad as you are. Just annoyed at the second piece of crap you farted. And congratulations on “going green” after 30,000 comments. You’re the man! :-)
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Mar 27, 2009 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Important Note
Both parties have now been given a free shot to blow off steam. Everyone now must return to a discussion of the issues, without attacking the opposing poster. I’m seriously thinking of making that official SnakePit policy, but until I get something formal written down, consider it as such. Transgressors will find their comments deleted.
'As times goes by, as times goes by, they say "he's washed up", "he's finished" , "he's a loser", "he's all through". You know what? The only one that's going to tell me when I'm through doing my thing is you people here.'
by Jim McLennan on Mar 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
We now return you
to your regularly scheduled Snakepit.
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by DbacksSkins on Mar 27, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Do not cross Happy Fun Site :-)
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Mar 27, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't
particularly satisfied with my rebuttal, either. It was far too emotional.
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Dont Apologize
You won, like, four Tony Awards ;-)
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Mar 27, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I didn't apologize.
I’m just acknowledging some of your criticisms.
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Fantasy world...
You make some legitimate points elsewhere, but this isn’t one of them. :-)
In a fantasy world,where let’s say everything else is geopolitically equal to today, but the Tohono O’odham could grant the Dbacks the magnificent S Tucson stadium of their dreams – guaranteeing 10K every game at higher prices – do you think the Dbacks would stay? Even if they were the only Tucson team and had to travel a bunch?
I really don’t think money is a significant part of the equation. Last year, the Cubs set an all-time record, with 181,280 fans coming to their games in Hohokam, while the D-backs in Tucson had about seventy thousand fewer. Even assuming moving to Location X in Phoenix allowed us to match the Cubs [and that’s questionable, since we locals already get to see them 81 times per year anyway], the additional numbers would represent less than three percent of the crowd pulled by the Diamondbacks at Chase in 2008. The resulting revenue increase would be even less, since the average ticket-price, etc. would be significantly lower: and has to be weighed against the massive loss of goodwill from the southern half of the state.
Moving to Phoenix may make marginally more cash, but at most, I doubt it’d be enough to pay a couple of league-minimum player salaries. It’s far from the shameless grab for a goldmine you make it out as.
'As times goes by, as times goes by, they say "he's washed up", "he's finished" , "he's a loser", "he's all through". You know what? The only one that's going to tell me when I'm through doing my thing is you people here.'
by Jim McLennan on Mar 26, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Theoretical ballpark estimates
Tucson
15g x 4K per game = 60K fans
60K fans x $10 ave ticket = $0.6M revenue
Brand New Casino North Ballpark
15g x 10K per game = 150K fans
150k fans x $14 ave ticket = $2.1M revenue
Concessions (which I think may be higher in spring – ie nobody brings food to the games, more of a party atmosphere):
150K fans-60K fans= 90K addtl fans x $10 ave (beer, dogs)= $0.9M
That’s $2.5M addtl revenue ($1.5M + 0.9M) right there, before travel expenses and goodness knows what else.
************
Some of the Huckleberry-Hall remarks make me think that’s just a drop in the bucket, honestly. Chime in if you think I’m wrong, but my feel from both of them is the Dbacks net about $1M on $3M gross in Tucson. Note my Tucson ticket revenue is only $0.6M, about double that with concessions. Maybe I’m low, but I think it’s possible that “other” is at least as big a piece of the revenue pie as tickets/ concessions.
I’ve got Diamondbacks North generating $3M in tickets/concessions, so let’s double that to six (the “other” multiplier), add in travel savings, all sorts of casino cobranding and tie-ins, and I think the revenue differences look pretty significant.
Derrick casually mentioned the Cubs bring Mesa $25-30M a year and the tribe isnt considering building a $100M baseball complex for nothing. Please dont jump on me for mixing apple and orange revenue streams there. I appreciate the distinction. I just toss out those figures to give a general sense of some of the real and anticipated overall revenues.
I’m not claiming the Dbacks will make off with as much as the casino (or Mesa for that matter), but there’s clearly very big money being tossed around, claimed and presumably made here. To assume the Dbacks arent aiming for a big slice of that contradicts the tone and content of some of Mr Hall’s more gushing comments in your interview, imo, and your concession the club “may make marginally more cash” doesnt seem to square with all this moving and shaking.
Cheers
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Mar 27, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Numbers
You are both under-estimating the pull of the D-backs in Tucson, and over-estimating their pull in Phoenix. Looking at the numbers this season, the Diamondbacks have played a dozen games at TEP and a dozen in the valley – I’ve ignored the games against Mexico and also those at Hi-Corbett. The 12 TEP games have drawn 78,708, and average of 6,599 per game. The ones in the valley 95,909, an average of 7,992. Only one of those games has reached the projected “ten thousand” figure mentioned, and the average was only 1,500 more.
This suggests the actual gain in attendance by playing in Central Arizona would be definitely not the six thousand per game you reckon. Based on those numbers [in a season where Tucson has basically abandoned supporting the team] but using your spending patterns, the math becomes:
Tucson
15g x 6.5K per game = 97.5K fans
97.5K fans x $10 ave ticket = $0.975M revenue
Brand New Casino North Ballpark
15g x 8K per game = 120K fans
120k fans x $14 ave ticket = $1.680M revenue
Concessions:
120K fans-97.5K fans= 22.5K addtl fans x $10 ave (beer, dogs)= $0.225M
Total revenue increase: $930K
And that’s revenue – not profit. Given annual team revenue, per Forbes, was $165m, you are talking less than six-tenths of one percent of an increase in revenue.
There’s no doubt the presence of the Cubs brings a lot of money to Mesa, but how much of that is from things like hotel accommodation, rental car-hire, etc – things that would not apply to local, Arizona fans? I wager it’s a significant chunk. And while there’s equally no doubt the casino won’t be building a complex out of the kindness of their heart – that’s an extra 120K who can be wined, dined and gently shaken down – how much of that will the Diamondbacks see?
Yes, it’s a significant driver of the economy in general, but as far as the Diamondbacks are concerned, your statement “They dont make as much money in The Old Pueblo as they could upstate, and that’s what’s driving 99% of this. Money.” just doesn’t hold water.
'As times goes by, as times goes by, they say "he's washed up", "he's finished" , "he's a loser", "he's all through". You know what? The only one that's going to tell me when I'm through doing my thing is you people here.'
by Jim McLennan on Mar 27, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I clearly underestimated
the Tucson draw (based on Derrick’s concern over a pair of early weekend games), but let’s take a closer look at the data. Your aggregate attendance numbers are accurate (thank you) but dont convincingly support your position. Of the 12 games at TEP, five were Sat/Sun contests, including a Cubs game that drew 11455. Of the 12 games up north, just three on weekends – v Seattle and SD in Peoria, and KC in West Astonishment :-) Not exactly marquee matchups, yet that trio of Dback games averaged 9690 (with a low of 8838).
Based on this, and assuming a glittering, state of the art 13K facility in the NE valley, I dont see an average projection of 10K for the Gila Greenbacks as unreasonable. Especially if/when the economy turns. Seven or 8K on weekdays, ten to twelve each Fri-Sun, and capacity when the Cubs or Dodgers show, or when Gila River subsidizes ticket sales w/ free rolls of quarters ;-). The other point is that TEP’s currrent 6500 average is propped up with 40% Sat/Sun crowds. So, instead of my initial 6K per game “city” differential (10K-4K), I’ll amend that to 4K (10K-6K) per game – or 60K additional fans per spring (down from 90K).
I also underestimated average ticket prices – these are notoriously difficult to pinpoint, and the mean applies since we’re looking at revenue. Here’s TEPs six price breaks (not incl standing room and averaging premier and non-pemier equally, six games of each):
5.50 lawn
6.50
9
14.50
17.50
16
Here’s similar price breaks for the existing MLB club based in the NE valley, the SF Giants:
10.50 lawn
14.00
16.00
20.00
21.50
23.00
26.50
Dbacks could come in lower, but it’s fairly safe to say my $4 estimated Kino/Keno differential (ie $10 v $14) was too conservative. It may be closer to $10 v $16, $11 v $18, something like that. So, multiplying the 60K addtl fans @$16 ($0.96M) plus the original base 90K fans now paying six or seven bucks more per ticket($0.585M), we’re back to $1.5M addtl revenue, just on tickets! .And that’s almost pure profit – most associated costs are fixed, whether you draw three thousand or ten.
Of more interest to me is this “multiplier” regarding non-ticket revenue. If we figure Tucson grosses something like 15g x 6500 fans x $11 ave ticket, you get a tad over a million dollars. But even the club CEO acknowledges they gross three. Where’s that extra $2M from? Is it fairly static (ie $2M) or dynamic (more of a 2.8 to 3.0 multiplier off the ticket base)? Considering Keno North may approximate 15g x 10,000 fans x $17= $2.5M, those are significant questions. Is the new revenue projection merely $2.5 plus $2M, or more like $2.5M times 2.8?
We havent added travel and logistical savings (remember, this is touted as a year round facility) or lease and rent considerations. Hall referred to Pima County’s “larger share” in the letter and didnt sound too happy about it. Am I crazy for thinking Gila River probably wont be driving such a hard bargain? MLB teams are leaving Tucson in droves, presumably, because they’re getting better deals elsewhere. More revenue. Lower costs. More money. I dont think all their draft picks were tripping over practice mounds ;-)
The Dbacks stand to gross $2M more, minimum, and possibly $5 million or more every year from getting out of Tucson. Estimates to be sure, but we’re just covering the basics here. Who knows what other arrangements they might make. Suggesting the whole casino deal is financially incidental to a $165M organization strikes me like saying playoff money or stadium naming rights are incidental. Besides, that’s gross and the club claimed a loss in 2008. I imagine a million ot two in addtl profit (based on Hall’s stated 1:3 profit to gross ratio) looks pretty attractive and drives a good deal of strategy.
Again, to skins argument, not saying that’s a bad thing. Other teams have left and the Gem Show may be next. My point is simply that profit is a bigger consideration than Derrick is letting on. Note how the Gem Show spokesman comes out and emphasizes that Tucson hasnt done enough to drive revenue. Revenue this and revenue that. I’m ok if Derrick says he can make more money elsewhere. Skins is ok with that, right? It’s a for profit enterprise. The point is, Derrick’s not okay with that – he wants to be all things to all people, walk the political tightrope by getting the hell out of a city that isnt financially competitive without offending it (except for Huckleberry, who I gather is an easy, and perhaps deserving, target.). I understand why he’s doing it and it’s not the end of the world or anything – I’d just respect a public approach that’s more upfront about the club’s interests, their financial interests specifically, than the song and dance we’re getting, where between biweekly erections over Camelback Ranch, DH is basically saying money’s not an issue – he just cares about well packed practice mounds, windscreens in good repair, and the convenient red herring of four viable ballteams in this sinkhole.
He’s a business, quite a big one. I think he should be more upfront addressing revenue, like the guy from the Gem Show.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Mar 28, 2009 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions
The Friday/Saturday thing is significant, and would skew numbers somewhat towards Tucson. However, there are a couple of other factors which I think still point heavily to both your attendance and revenue estimates being high.
1) Regardless of where the stadium is placed in the Valley, most fans already have the opportunity to see the team closer to home, at one of the other locations. For example, if it’s at Gila River, why would fans in NW Phoenix want to travel there, when they can just go to Peoria, Camelback or any one of the other more convenient parks? The catchment area from which Casino Park is going to be the ‘best’ one for fans is going to be a lot smaller than the one centered on Tucson. A shiny new stadium will appeal initially, but much like girlfriends, the thrill of the new evaporates pretty quickly. ;-)
2) This is the real hammer-blow. The Diamondbacks already play 95 games per year, between the regular-season and spring training, in the Phoenix area. The market is completely saturated, with the supply of tickets far exceeding demand, regardless of whether it’s spring or not. Adding another fifteen games will not generate 60,000 additional ticket sales: far more likely, it’ll just shift the vast majority of them from other games.
That same reason is also why it is pretty dangerous to compare our prices to the Giants, since they play far fewer games in Arizona. In addition, their prime Scottsdale location is a lot more attractive to the ‘wine and cheese set’. The new Diamondbacks park is not going to be anything like that; if it’s anywhere inside the 101 freeway, I’ll be surprised. Combine this with the over-saturation and a more realistic comparison might by the Padres prices, at their park located just outside the 101:
$6.00 lawn
$12.00 bleachers
$17.00
$19.00
$21.00
$23.00
The differential there seems to vary from 50 cents to four dollars. So, unless the D-backs adopt the Dodgers pricing structure [and they’d be fools to do so], I still reckon we’re taking about 30,000 additional tickets at most, and maybe four bucks per ticket in enhanced sales.
On the overall revenue front, the gross of $3m seems pretty fair to me. Firstly, that would appear to be last year’s figure, when they drew 111,000 to Tucson, rather than 95,000. At $11 per seat, that’s up to over $1.2m. The balance presumably comes from concessions and merchandise [certainly the team shop at Tucson did pretty well when we’ve been there]. But, again, the market in Phoenix for merchandise is already perfectly well-served by Chase. We can already get all the jerseys, etc. we need. We didn’t spend anything in the Tucson team shop, and won’t be spending anything in the Casino Park one either.
All told, I still think my original estimate of about a million dollars is still more likely to be accurate, especially in the long-term, once the thrill of the new stadium is gone. Certainly, I can’t see how it will be anywhere near $5m more – not when Tucson only grosses $3m in total. For the vast majority of Phoenix fans, the team is already very easily accessible from March through to October [and into November this season, we hope!] so moving from 95 to 110 games per year in the Phoenix area is just not going to produce any significant additional fans, hence income.
I doubt the move will exactly cost the team money, sure. But there are any number of perfectly legitimate reasons, mentioned by Hall, which would adequately justify the move, even if it was a complete financial wash. [Getting away from Chuck, to start with!] It seems to me entirely reasonable that Hall is not mentioning the numbers, both for PR reasons and because – just possibly, and i know this goes against your ingrained beliefs – they actually aren’t very significant here.
I just hope some of the new proposals put forward by the various communities [see the latest fanshot] get into the public domain too. Those would give a solid insight into what the team can expect from the move.
'As times goes by, as times goes by, they say "he's washed up", "he's finished" , "he's a loser", "he's all through". You know what? The only one that's going to tell me when I'm through doing my thing is you people here.'
by Jim McLennan on Mar 28, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Announced admissions
at today’s Saturday game vs. the Injuns: ~7,800
Sorry, just thought I’d throw that out there. Carry on.
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In comparison
Friday’s game at Peoria- Mariners versus Rockies- was ~8800, if memory serves.
"Scott, are you evil, or are you really happy?"
Good Stuff
One philosophical area of agreement is that being the only “home” spring training team presents unique financial dynamics. Our ST fans wont rent cars or eat out as much, and will sleep in their own beds, so the team likely wont generate those standard revenue streams for municipalities. – and cities that spring for a $100M Dbacks facility will probably never recoup that. Another reason why the latest round of city proposals appear dubious to me. I dont agree, however, that the Dbacks’ local status has to be a net disadvantage.
Oversupply of Dback games is a valid consideration, but the converse is also true. The PHX-based club naturally enjoys more latent demand than any “outside” MLB competitor, including the Cubs. Keyword: latent (unrealized) – something the home team needs to work on :-) IOW, correlations between spring and the regular season go both ways, and if your oversaturation theory were true, wouldnt the Dbacks already suffer at the gate each spring? Maybe they do, but it’s hard to tell, as they draw competitively (v most other teams) each March in Phoenix, even with 81 more home games looming on the horizon. At this point, the idea that 15 beautiful outdoor March games in a brand new jewelbox, in the nation’s fifth largest city, will somehow soften their exisiting local appeal seems like a reach (ie we would’ve already seen the effects by now).
On location, the key consideration is to be in the East Valley – not whether you’re inside or outside “the 101”. On the NE side, Barrett-Jackson draws hundreds of thousands well outside the loop, at Westworld. The best attended golf tournament in the world, year after year, touches the loop at it’s extreme NE corner. Farther south, the Gila River tribe is primed 15-20 minutes from Chandler, Gilbert, Tempe and downtown Phoenix. To compare ticket prices and the financial possibilities in these locales with a tired Westside Padres facility, trapped up on West Bell and 83rd Ave, seems unrealistic.
The dynamic I think you’re not sufficiently imagining is the casino piece. You say "the new Diamondbacks park is not going to be anything like [Scottsdale Stadium], which is true. It’ll be bigger and better – and newer. People wont mosey over to Scottsdale Mall for wine and cheese (traditonal revenue stream), but they may be within eyesight (or even walking distance) of a full service casino resort – an unprecedented cross-sell in major professional U.S. sports. We’ll see how it plays out, what they’re allowed to do and not, but before long, I envision the tribe providing complimentary transportation to Dback ST games from almost anywhere in the valley. Dont forget the free (or steeply discounted) pre and post-game buffets just outside the casino’s front door. And the free shuttle between the park and the slots.
Now, as I understand your “ingrained beliefs” ;-) – maybe you’ll point out the buffet will eat into ballpark concession profits, and in terms of public accounting that’s probably true. But as you already understand, the real money here is being made by the tribe. The Dbacks are merely posing outside the casino entrance, enticing hundreds of thousands of new prospects to the property. Clearly, the tribe feels that’s worth $100M. I gather you feel that’s more or less the end of the arrangement, whereas I suspect it’s more of the beginning.
As you rightfully claim, in a different context, it’d be nice to see the contract :-)
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Mar 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Those poor, poor Padres...
...Is it Opening Day yet?
It would be poetic if it didn't suck so much (RIP Pushing Daisies...)
by emilylovesthedbacks on Mar 26, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder
if Vegas will set an over/under on him doing something like offering Brian Giles 4 years/$60 million.
Didn't you see the FanShot?
Apparently, he’s “not going to sign any 38 year old players to 7 year deals”….
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Any of this sound familiar?
The thought of Tucson’s annual gem show leaving town was once unimaginable. But organizers say they have to think about it. ``I would have never considered leaving the city of Tucson for somewhere else, but I am now,‘’ said Douglas Hucker, whose organization hosts GemFair Tucson each February at the Tucson Convention Center. ``We’re not planning on leaving the city. But what we’re trying to say is not considering leaving is no longer an option.’’
A lack of progress on building downtown hotels and a new arena for the show are just some of the reasons that Hucker and others are considering pulling out of Tucson. ``I’m not sure a bridge painting on Fourth Avenue, or some track being laid down for a (streetcar) … that doesn’t represent significant movement for me,‘’ he said. ``There needs to be more. They (the city) better focus on revenue-producing things or they will lose their biggest revenue producer.’’ Hucker said he told Tucson City Manager Mike Hein and members of the City Council staff about his concerns.
Hucker said the gem show is like a credit line for the city, helping to pump more than $100 million into the local economy each year. He accused the city of taking the gem show’s presence for granted rather than taking steps to ensure it sticks around.``The city has operated like the gem shows are a birthright, and I think they no longer are,‘’ Hucker said. ``I think that hotel and the convention center are key on everything the city has going forward.’’
'As times goes by, as times goes by, they say "he's washed up", "he's finished" , "he's a loser", "he's all through". You know what? The only one that's going to tell me when I'm through doing my thing is you people here.'
Shocking.
Positively shocking.
There’ve been rumors of this for awhile, actually.
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Yeah, I have heard rumblings for years. Like I said above:
“I truly despise our local government here. Do they not want any industries or tourism in Tucson?”
The retirees want to retard growth,
because they don’t want to “become like Phoenix” — which is partly why our roads suck so much. (Well, that, and Maricopa hoarding all the transportation money)
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by DbacksSkins on Mar 28, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Cross Mesa off the list
The Diamondbacks have issued a request for proposals, and the deadline for municipalities to respond is Friday. Mesa was asked to bid, as were other East Valley municipalities and Native American tribes… But in a statement issued shortly before the 5 p.m. deadline, the city said it would focus on improving the facilities for a team already here: the Chicago Cubs.
"We are being diligent in our efforts to develop a plan and strategy for keeping the Cubs in Mesa," City Manager Chris Brady said in the new release. "They are the best known icon of spring training and have been for decades. This will continue to be our focus and priority. Mesa Mayor Scott Smith said: "We would love to work with the Diamondbacks; they are Arizona’s major league baseball team and we are very supportive of them. We were just unable to turn around what we feel would be a responsible proposal given the time frame."
'As times goes by, as times goes by, they say "he's washed up", "he's finished" , "he's a loser", "he's all through". You know what? The only one that's going to tell me when I'm through doing my thing is you people here.'
Mesa =
the Cubs’ bitch
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by DbacksSkins on Mar 28, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Here's an interesting document
A Board of Supervisors memorandum, detailing what needed to be done at TEP over the winter, and discussing the terms of the White Sox departure, and what impact it would have on the Diamondbacks.
Link [PDF format, 4.9 Mb]
'As times goes by, as times goes by, they say "he's washed up", "he's finished" , "he's a loser", "he's all through". You know what? The only one that's going to tell me when I'm through doing my thing is you people here.'
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