The 2009 'Pitties: MVP
by Jim McLennan on Dec 4, 2009 9:59 PM EST
in News
34 comments
Haren, to no great surprise, cantered to victory in the Cy Young award, notching a thoroughly-convincing 86% of votes. Here's to the contest being a little closer in 2010, with Webb and Scherzer perhaps pushing Haren with their own pitching performances. We now move on to the final award: Most Valuable Player for the Diamondbacks in 2009.
You're kinda lucky this isn't just five players' name with a one-line summary such as 'Reynolds: hit the ball hard.' For yesterday, I came down with something rather nasty, stomach bug-wise - I'll spare you the details, but it was like a re-enactment of the Mr Creosote sketch from Monty Python's Meaning of Life. It was not a pleasant night. However, I am a bit better this morning [thanks go to Mrs. SnakePit and her NyQuil, hot sweet tea and damp towels for my forehead], so after the jump, we'll review the five top candidates for Diamondbacks MVP. I can not promise, however, that it will be entirely cut-and-paste free. Hey, I'm still not well...
I've also included the WAR [Wins Above Replacement] value from fangraphs.com, though obviously these do not take into account 'intangibles' such as leadership, etc. which may be considered important when deciding who is 'Most Valuable'. Will Haren's clear lead in this category be outweighed by his absence from the field of play four days out of five? It certainly doesn't seem to have hurt Brandon Webb, winner in both 2006 and 2007. He won't be a factor in this year's poll, and I'm thinking it could be quite close, as you could make a credible case for the majority of the nominees listed. After the jump, we'll list the names and put forward the cases.
- Dan Haren: 6.1 WAR, 229.1 IP, 3.14 ERA
Haren posted his fifth straight 200-inning season in 2009, one of only four pitchers with such a streak (alongside Vasquez, Buerhle and Arroyo). Dan was also the best pitcher in the National League over the first-half of the season, with a 2.01 ERA, and a K:BB ratio better than 8:1. He had 18 quality starts in his first 19 outings, including seven straight where he went 7+ innings and allowed two or less runs - there hasn't been a longer streak in the NL since 2001. While Haren cooled off after the break, he still set career highs for IP, K and ERA+ and came within one measly hit of becoming the first NL starter in four years to have a WHIP below one. - Miguel Montero: 3.3 WAR, .294/.355/.478, 16 HR
One of the more pleasant surprises in 2009. Montero produced the best season ever offensively by an Arizona catcher (min. 150 PAs): his OPS of .832 broke Robby Hammock's record set in 2003, as Miggy became one of the top-hitting catchers in the National League. He tied the franchise high for both hits and home-runs at the position, and got more PAs in the majors than over the previous three seasons combined, taking over as our everyday starter behind the plate. Montero held his own against both left- and right-handers, and his defensive abilities grew noticeably better as the season went on. Montero's emergence ensures that catcher is not a position we'll need to worry about in 2010. - Mark Reynolds: 3.9 WAR, .260/.349/.543, 44 HR
Special K lived up to both halves of his nickname, becoming the first Diamondback since 2003 to drive in a hundred runs, and smacking 44 home-runs, including some of the most majestic ones seen in the majors all year, while smashing his own single-season record for strikeouts. Reynolds also developed into a clubhouse presence, not afraid to call out team-mates for their lack of effort, while giving the maximum himself. This showed up in his defense, including some spectactular plays made with wilful disregard for his own safety, but which improved considerably by most objective measures. This was the year when Reynolds truly came of age. - Max Scherzer: 3.2 WAR, 170.1 IP, 4.12 ERA
Questions about Scherzer's stamina coming into 2009 were largely answered: the 25-year old threw over three thousand pitches, ranking him between Cole Hamels and Zach Duke, and gradually stretched out, to the point where he averaged 6.60 IP/start in September, a career high. He also ranked 13th in the league for strikes, at 65%, ahead of Cy Young winner Tim Lincecum. Scherzer had a 2.16 ERA in June, which included his best outing, 7.2 shutout innings against the Giants. Not helped by his defense - the 16 unearned runs allowed was an NL high - Scherzer simply did it himself, fanning more than a batter per inning. - Justin Upton: 4.5 WAR, .300/.366/.532, 26 HR
Only four qualifying 21-year olds in the expansion era have had a better OPS than Upton produced for us in 2009: Pujols, A-Rod, Griffey and Cesar Cedeno. At his age, it would have been impressive enough for J-Up simply to justify his position, but to lead the team in BA, play in the All-Star Game and get an MVP vote, is an amazing achievement. While he still made his share of mistakes (the 420-foot single; the faked ball-toss), he also delivered more than his share of jaw-dropping moments in virtually all aspects of his game, with some dazzling defensive plays, showcasing the JUpzooka, as well as a prodigious bat.
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Hmm
Given how this season went for the winners of the 2006, 2007, and 2008 awards, maybe we should carefully consider who we vote for this year.
"Spam headline: 'YOU ARE CHOSEN!' Oh, Morpheus, you're getting pretty lazy."
"Or they are informing you you are Jewish in a very lame conversion campaign."
"In either case, sending me spam is not the way to invite me to Zion."
The Curse of the Pitties?
I know I should have put Tim Lincecum in there… :-)
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Dec 4, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
Surprising!
Even though he was my vote, I am shocked to see Reynolds leading the way thus far. His stat line doesn’t blow you away for an MVP cadidate, but it was those “intagables” that Jim mentioned that really got me.
The night in July where Mark called out the team (worth re-reading via the link if you have not) really pushed him to the top of my favorites list this year. It reminded me of Jackson’s play on the bases last year where he overran second base (and hense his first cycle) to get to third.
Both those guys have lead this team by example and I cannot wait to see them on the field together again. I truely hope they take the reins of this team and make it their own. The Diamondbacks couldn’t be in better hands from an onfield leadership perspective.
Really it was just a three man race b/w Haren, Reynolds, and Upton. For me, I will only vote for a SP as MVP if there is no real offensive stud and the pitcher has a monster year. Haren was great, but it wasn’t a monster year and both Reynolds and Upton were studs this year. Then it comes down to Upton and Reynolds. To me, this is where the intangibles and position play a factor. Reynolds’ value has to be given a bump because of his position and then I think he gets a pretty substantial bump for his leadership (hustle, day-in-day-out commitment to excellence, and willingness to call the team and take personal responsibility for the team’s failings). Upton is fantastic, but he lacks any of these qualities at this point in his career.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
Wow.
I just noticed that Mark not only hit more HRs than any other 3B in the majors, but he was one of only two non-1B/DH/OF (traditional slugger positions) in the top 16. (The other being Toronto 2B Aaron Hill)
Dbacks return to the WS in 2010?
Hey, it could happen.
Makes my head hurt
trying to distinguish between Haren, Reynolds & Upton. None is a real MVP, but they all had good years…I’d vote for all three, or maybe for Upton, simply to counter the racist bias.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
been reading the
azcentral boards again? All they need is to have an ad for white sheets and crosses to be complete.
For me, I voted for Haren. Without him, we’d have 2004 all over again.
"If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe!"
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 6, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Haren
was clearly the best Diamondback at his role, one of the seven or eight best starters in the league, though his seasonal value was roughly equal to everyday players like Mark and Justin.
I should clarify my above comments. First, I meant to say ‘racial bias’, not racist bias. I’m not suggesting that everyone who voted for Mark or Dan is a racist, but I am implying that some of you are probably biased against Upton.
The three candidates are so objectively close that I’d expect a closer race in a bias-free environment. Seven people had voted for Jup and thirty or forty for Mark when I made the comment. Eye opening, considering Justin sported the team’s highest OPS, and there’s solid evidence to support he was the team’s most valuable baserunner and best defender at his position as well.
I dont think he’s a no brainer, head and shoulders above everyone, but that’s a damn formidable case to be pulling in eleven percent of the vote.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
Racial/racist
I find it hard to belive there is any such thing in sport nowadays. If it results in a Win, I doubt 99.9% of the poulation cares if you are black, white, yellow, plaid or from Caprica (I just watched BG: The Plan), sports is pretty color blind with today’s average fan.
by Counsellmember on Dec 6, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
read azcentral
some “fans” are not color blind by any stretch of the word
btw, how was BG: The Plan?
"If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe!"
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 7, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
I lied
I only recieved The Plan in the mail. Viewing to commence this week sometime, I’ll let you know. But I wanted to keep it as long as I could so other Netflix members would be deprived. ;)
by Counsellmember on Dec 7, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
One possible influencing factor is that Reynolds did a lot more to endear himself to the fans- flashy defensive plays into the stands, calling out the team when we were all thinking it- than Upton did- not hustling on hits and getting pulled for it, fake tossing a ball to a fan.
"Spam headline: 'YOU ARE CHOSEN!' Oh, Morpheus, you're getting pretty lazy."
"Or they are informing you you are Jewish in a very lame conversion campaign."
"In either case, sending me spam is not the way to invite me to Zion."
I wouldn’t deny that might be a factor for some. That said, as one of Upton’s biggest supporters from day one, I do think there is a leadership component to a team MVP award. That’s probably unfair, since I don’t really see that as much when we’re talking about league MVP, but nonetheless, when we’re asked to make the decision about who the most valuable player is on our team, I think that the leadership element definitely comes into play. As I mentioned above, this is where Mark gets a big push on Upton. Otherwise, I think you’re right. Upton was a more valuable hitter, fielder, and baserunner.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
Couple of other factors
Upton made a number of truly-memorable gaffes during the season that people certainly remember and probably hurt him: his 420-ft single, the fake ball toss into the stand, etc. neither of which show up in the box-score, but are certainly going to be taken into account with regard to an award like MVP, which is almost designed to include “intangibles,” where Mark seems to have a huge lead over the other two candidates.
I think Upton’s age also worked against him. The V in MVP seems to have an unspoken “Veteran” element to it: how many of the top 20 in, say, the NL MVP voting were younger than even 25? Pablo and Troy-boy? Think that’s it.
Now, I don’t doubt some posters may have ignored Upton for racial reasons (there is at least one irregular poster here, about whom I suspect that to be true) but I think that’s a very small percentage. As I said above, “you could make a credible case for the majority of the nominees listed” – I can hardly argue against a vote for any of them, and certainly am not going to play the volatile race card as a result. I’d need much stronger evidence first.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Dec 7, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
We agree
one could make a credible case for each of the three main candidates, and that there are a number of inherent factors as to why so many voters (87%) chose not to make the case for Upton. But we disagree on the likely composition of those factors.
I think age and intangibles have some merit, but you seem unusually reluctant to entertain even the possibility of race here. What kind of “much stronger evidence” is required for you to acknowledge it as a probable factor? A quorum of posts confirming “I aint a-votin’ for that n*gger”?
See, that’s not the kind of racial bias I’m talking about. I mean far more subtle, usually subconscious prejudices of well meaning people like you and me. Humans, as a rule, tend to overplay the virtue and discount the shortcomings of people who look like them, and half a century of psychological data bears that out. Nothing mean spirited about it. Nothing to be ashamed of, but useful knowledge in discussions like this.
"intangibles," where Mark seems to have a huge lead over the other two candidates
I’m pretty certain most voters like Haren’s intangibles just fine. A more likely explanation for Mark’s 2 to 1 advantage is because Danny’s a pitcher. But I agree voters evaluated Mark’s intangibles significantly higher than Justin’s. Let’s take a look at that:
Upton made a number of truly-memorable gaffes during the season that people certainly remember
Really? I had forgotten about the 420 ft single until you brought it up, and am trying to recall the origins of the fake ball toss. That’s right. The ‘lackadaisical’ black kid was booed for an error, probably louder than any Dback has ever been booed at home, and in the heat of the moment misunderstood the reaction which was aimed more at the team, and didnt lob one inning-ender into the bleachers. Not the most mature moment, but that’s what’s keeping him from team MVP? If Reynolds withheld a single ball under similar circumstances, would you be discounting his MVP candidacy six months later?
Reynolds didnt hold the ball, but certainly had his share of visible shortcomings and potentially controversial moments. It can be argued, and was, that the gaudy strikeouts reflect an inherently selfish quality. No other 2009 Dback generated more GTD consternation for his historic inability to put balls in play. His reaction to this, at least after one game? “So what?”. If Justin Upton had defiantly glared at reporters and repeatedly uttered those words, would we be praising his backbone or chiding his immaturity and lack of team orientation?
What if Upton led the team in getting picked off, and errors, and publicly chastised his teammates for lack of effort? Would we be praising him, like we do Mark, or burying him in pot-kettle comparisons?
I’m not saying any of this to badmouth Mark, or to claim Justin’s some great leader. I like them both. I’m saying there’s more than one way to interpret intangibles, and we sport folk have a history of gravitating toward very predictable narratives – predictable all too often as a function of race.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
If I seem “unusually reluctant to even entertain the possibility of race”, you seem far more unusually keen to blame it for people’s decisions here. You ask “What kind of much stronger evidence is required?” Put simply, before branding anyone as exhibiting “racist bias” (and yes, I know you amended that later), I would want much stronger evidence than their answer to a single, baseball-related question, which is basically all you have here. The percentage voting for Upton is less than you expected — ergo, racism! That is the massive leap in logic you seem to be making, unless you have other evidence I’m missing?
Now, there are a myriad of reasons why Upton may have received fewer votes that you thought. I’ve already listed some, and in the more or less complete absence of data to the contrary, I am certainly going to lean towards the less pejorative ones. You are free to believe otherwise – but I tend to think that says more about you than the 81% of respondents who went non-Upton.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
The percentage voting for Upton is less than you expected — ergo, racism!
Well, it’s a lot less, OK? When we started this, he was 11%, which I’ve evidently shamed up to 19 ;-) It’s not ergo, racism. It’s that the objective disparity between candidates is dwarfed by the subjective vote to a degree that suggests one of the candidates may’ve murdered someone.
As you know, I havent accused any individual voter of racism. I cant read online voters’ hearts and neither can you. But I can interpret aggregate poll results and ascertain when they depart wildly from objective and reasonable considerations.
Now, there are a myriad of reasons why Upton may have received fewer votes that you thought.
I’ve cheerfully acknowledged that. Age, intangibles, Reynolds even played more games. That’s not the issue. The issue is you’re unwilling to seriously consider race as one of those reasons, until some empirical test is met that you dont seem to require for any of your other sixteen rationales.
Tell you what. Find a white player, after 1947, who has as compelling a case as Upton’s – that is, he can make a strong objective claim to be his team’s best hitter, defender and runner – who also polls less than 20% of his team’s MVP vote. He doesnt have to be the best unequivocally, but has to have as solid and broad a case as Justin’s. I honestly dont know if there is someone, but if there is, you’ll have at least one empirical counter example that this sort of result is possible apart from race.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
Fight racism with racism
Tell you what. Find a white player, after 1947, who has as compelling a case as Upton’s – that is, he can make a strong objective claim to be his team’s best hitter, defender and runner – who also polls less than 20% of his team’s MVP vote.
The proof that racism against blacks influenced this situation is not to find an example of when there was racism against a player of a different race. We all know racism exists in the world. And it existed for a long time in baseball. Does it exist at the Snakepit? I haven’t seen it.
Are you insulted that Monetro only garnered 2% of the vote? He is Latino, and subject to more racism in Arizona than is the black community, at least by us white landowning baseball enthusiasts. :)
I was pretty shocked Reynolds got as much of the vote as he did, as well. But I figured that people followed the same logic that I did. Or people read the posts and were swayed by those like me who advocated for Mark.
This is a community site where members influence one another; I think many of us happen to agree on who influences the Dbacks to the greatest extent as well.
by Counsellmember on Dec 9, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry to imply
Did not mean the title to sound like you are being racist, Hacks.
by Counsellmember on Dec 9, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
The proof that racism against blacks influenced this situation is not to find an example of when there was racism against a player of a different race.
I’m not asking Jim to find “other examples of racism”. I have plenty of those ;-) Quite the opposite. By searching for a white player with Upton’s “qualifications” (ie arguably team’s best hitter, runner and fielder AND who tallied less than 20% of MVP vote), I’m hoping he’ll find an instance where these seemingly contradictory “qualifications” CANT be explained by race. MVP voters are overwhelmingly white, whether we’re talking about the BBWAA or a Phoenix sports blog. So, if we can find similar white players who got shafted as badly as Upton apparently did, then I think you guys have more of a leg to stand on.
Are you insulted that Monetro only garnered 2% of the vote?
Not personally insulted, but yes, that he received the same number of votes as Max Scherzer strikes me as fairly predictable and objectively ridiculous.
This is a community site where members influence one another
Sure, and that’s a huge part of the embedded bias, because the influential posters here are overwhelmingly white, which tends to reinforce comfortable prejudices. In the nominations, Jim lauded MR as a maximum effort, clubhouse presence kind of guy, who ’truly came of age." Upton, predictably, is portrayed as the superhuman athlete who suceeds almost despite his immature character.
Did this influence voters? I’m sure it did. Is it true? Weeeeelllll. Yes and no. Intangible distinctions can be drawn between the candidates, but as I tried to explain earlier, that can go both ways. Are intangibles as one sided and significant as Jim wants us to believe? Probably not. Doesnt Reynolds have ‘superhuman’ strength and amazing athleticism too? Have you ever seen Upton take out fielders at second base? Does he not have intensity in his own right? Did he, the 21 year old All Star, not “come of age” as well? When Reynolds dives without regard for his body, he’s a hero – when Upton does the same thing he’s “fast”, or if he drops the ball “unseasoned”. Are these double standards as overt as they were a generation ago. No, but they’re still all over the place, and quite prevalent here.
I’m not saying the fact every snakepit MVP since 2006 was white is evidence we’re a bunch of rednecks. There’s very reasonable explanations for those results. But this site has a defiant history of less explicable positions that, when catalogued, suggest a pattern of racial bias.
Just on the MVP issue, which is an incredibly narrow sliver of this site, we’ve got Upton virtually ignored (or dismissed) in 2009. In 2008, Jim handpicked five white MVP candidates, despite the fact two black guys were far more valuable than nominee Adam Dunn and garnered as many Win Shares (17) as eventual winner, Conor Jackson.
In 2006 league voting, NL MVP Ryan Howard , who received a first or second place vote from all 32 BBWAA voters received a fifth place vote from the editor of this site, behind Caucasian stalwarts like JD Drew.
We all know racism exists in the world. And it existed for a long time in baseball. Does it exist at the Snakepit? I haven’t seen it.
Racism often implies malicious intent, and I’m trying to steer pretty clear of that, in favor of evidence that black and white players are perceived differently by fans. I think one of the disconnects I have with Jim (and probably you) is that he perceives this kind of talk as horribly pejorative and I see it as more of a psychological observation. I wont deny there’s an accusatory tone to it, but I just dont think it’s such a huge deal to entertain the possibility that you harbor underlying racial, or cultural or gender biases.
I certainly do. I try not to, and think it’s terribly important to evaluate people as individuals. But I’m human, and a product of my particular culture, experiences, etc. People who righteously defend their motivations and color blind worldview against that underlying level of virtually universal human frailty are, in my experience, quite superficial and often the most bigoted among us.
cheers
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Dec 9, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, and that’s a huge part of the embedded bias, because the influential posters here are overwhelmingly white, which tends to reinforce comfortable prejudices. In the nominations, Jim lauded MR as a maximum effort, clubhouse presence kind of guy, who ’truly came of age." Upton, predictably, is portrayed as the superhuman athlete who suceeds almost despite his immature character.
Did this influence voters? I’m sure it did. Is it true? Weeeeelllll. Yes and no. Intangible distinctions can be drawn between the candidates, but as I tried to explain earlier, that can go both ways. Are intangibles as one sided and significant as Jim wants us to believe? Probably not. Doesnt Reynolds have ‘superhuman’ strength and amazing athleticism too? Have you ever seen Upton take out fielders at second base? Does he not have intensity in his own right? Did he, the 21 year old All Star, not "come of age" as well? When Reynolds dives without regard for his body, he’s a hero – when Upton does the same thing he’s "fast", or if he drops the ball "unseasoned". Are these double standards as overt as they were a generation ago. No, but they’re still all over the place, and quite prevalent here.
I don’t really understand what this has to do with racism, though. Upton has MUCH higher expectations — his brother was already in the league, he was regarded pretty unanimously as the best overall talent in the 2005 draft, so he went first overall, etc. But that’s not because he’s black. That’s because he’s Justin Upton.
Mark Reynolds was NOT drafted out of high school, and was not highly regarded out of college. He was a 16th round draft pick, and hardly anyone had heard of him until he was called up from Double-A during the 2007 season. Last year, Mark set the all-time single season strikeout record, and both local AND national writers wrote him off because of that, THEN he comes back and has a season like he did this year. Mark came out of nowhere — not because he’s white, but because he’s Mark Reynolds.
I think if Mark or Micah Owings, for example, had been voted Snakepit Rookie Of The Year in 2007, rather than Chris Young, then you’d have more of an argument.
Now, I CAN remember some specific comments some non-regular Snakepit posters have made that had a racial twinge…. from referring to black players as “negro”, to complaining that there aren’t more blacks in the stands “even though some of our biggest stars are black”, to disparaging Upton and CY as “looking like rappers” because of the way they wear their hats.
But on the whole, it’s an interesting academic discussion, but I don’t think you really have much of an argument. Heck, we Snakepitters probably reacted more positively to the Scherzer-Schlereth trade than 90% of the baseball writers, despite the fact that Jackson is black and Scherzer is white.
How is Tiger Woods like a baby seal?
They both get clubbed by Scandinavians.
talk about a can of worms
On another topic not related to this in any way, the comment was made about opening up a can of worms. Well, it is almost 2010 and one would think that we as a nation, as a society, could finally sit down and have that purging talk about race relations, but we are so paralyzed by fear to do so.
Please do not read anything into my comment, it is meant as a broad, general comment on society as a whole and not related to the pit. And it is all I will say on the topic on this forum. I much rather talk baseball than the social ills we face. I know forums I can go to do that in.
"If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe!"
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 11, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Good comment
I can definitely appreciate that most people arent interested in having that nat’l conversation here, and indeed gravitate to sports blogs to get away from some of this stuff.
I suppose I could have emailed Jim privately, but this is about other prominent posters as well. It’s something that’s bothered me for a while and I appreciate having the opportunity, here, to get it off my chest.
I’ve said what I wanted to say and people can make of it what they will. Snakepit can be a terrific place to come and discuss Dbacks. The quality of participation and analysis is, generally speaking, improving. I just feel there’s some aspects of tone that separate Pit from rightful recognition as a truly first class sports blog.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Dec 11, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Reminds me a bit
of Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris.
How is Tiger Woods like a baby seal?
They both get clubbed by Scandinavians.
I like Mark's grit
but here’s a hypothetical.
Let’s say we had a relatively quiet white kid (Player A) in right field, who hit .300, led the team in OPS and was generally regarded as the team’s best baserunner and best defender at his position. His drawbacks were that he bobbled a bunch of balls in right and didnt run out a few balls that cost the team bases.
Player B is a young black slugger who led the team in homers and RBIs and who dives into the stands to catch foul pop ups. His negatives are he shattered the all time single season strikeout record and later shrugged ‘so what’ when asked about it. He also led the team in errors and being picked off base, yet when the team played poorly, he complained publicly about the effort of teammates.
Would player B garner four times as many MVP votes as player A? There’s no right answer, and I’m really not trying to get on anyone’s case. It’s an academic argument and I appreciate it being treated in that spirit. But my opinion is “No” and suspect Player A might be more apt to win such a hypothetical award.
I agree leadership’s a valid MVP consideration, but think humans tend to interpret such intangibles through their own cultural and racial prisms. I dont view Reynolds as a malcontent, but were he black in a predominantly white society, I suspect some of this year’s ‘ballsy’ remarks would be received less favorably.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
Wait a second!
I think I can see through your “hypothetical” players! Are we talking Johnny Estrada and Kurt Warner?
Damn it!
Jokes are less funny when they don’t go where you tell them to go!
by Counsellmember on Dec 7, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
+1
for the effort though
"If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe!"
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 8, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I was thinking more
Al Kaline and Bobby Bonilla :-)
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
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