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Just desserts? Arizona's starters and their W-L records

Over on True Blue LA a while ago, Eric Stephen looked at the hard luck experienced in 2009 by Clayton Kershaw, who only picked up eight victories despite an ERA+ of 149. That's the highest ever by a pitcher who made 25 or more starts and got single-digits in wins. Inspired by this - never one to miss out on the chance of a cheap off-season post! - I thought I'd take a look at some of the stats for Arizona's pitchers and see what light they shed on the W-L records they 'should' have got.

After the jump, that's exactly what I'll do. And, why yes, there will be pretty charts and attractively-colored graphs, thank you for asking.

Star-divide

We'll start at Baseball Prospectus, which has a couple of stats of interest. Expected Wins and Expected Losses are "the record for the pitcher, based on how often pitchers with the same innings pitched and runs allowed earned a win or loss historically." They also offer Support-Neutral Wins and Losses, which is "the pitcher's expected number of wins/losses assuming he had league-average support." The sum of the latter wins and losses always equals the number of starts - there's no concept of a "no decision" there, but it's still another number to look at. Here are these for the six Diamondbacks pitchers with a significant number of starts this season.

Name ERA W-L EW-EL SNW-SNL
Dan Haren 3.14 14-10
15-9 19-14
Doug Davis 4.12 9-14
12-12 18-16
Max Scherzer 4.12 9-11
10-11 14-16
Jon Garland 4.29 8-11
10-10 13-14
Yusmeiro Petit 5.82 3-10
5-7 7-10
Billy Buckner 6.40 4-6
4-6 6-7

 

Another way you can look at luck and a pitcher's performance in by Game Score. This is a Bill James stat, which combines innings pitched and strikeouts with runs, hits and walks allowed, to come up with a single figure [more or less] between zero and a hundred, which measure the quality of a starter's outing. Over the period 2001-09 in the National League, the first number is the odds of a starter getting a win, loss and no-decision, for various Game Score numbers. As comparison, the second number is the Diamondbacks' percentage from the past year.

GS W% ND% L%
<25 0.63% - 0.00% 15.85% - 0.00%
83.53%- 100.00%
25-29 3.55% - 0.00%
25.27% - 16.67%
71.17% - 83.33%
30-34 6.63% - 0.00%
29.33% - 33.33%
64.04% - 66.67%
35-39 12.55% - 11.11%
32.92% - 44.44%
54.54% - 44.44%
40-44 20.26% - 7.14%
35.04% - 28.57%
44.70% - 64.29%
45-49 25.27% - 13.33%
37.99% - 46.67%
36.75% - 40.00%
50-54 34.46% - 30.77%
36.49% - 23.07%
29.05% - 46.15%
55-59 43.40% - 22.73%
35.88% - 45.45%
20.71% - 31.81%
60-64 52.81% - 29.41%
32.24% - 35.29%
14.95% - 35.29%
65-69 63.44% - 66.67%
27.66% - 27.78%
8.91% - 5.56%
70-74 70.99% - 87.50%
22.85% - 12.50%
6.15% - 0.00%
75-79 77.96% - 71.43% 17.77% - 14.29% 4.27% - 14.29%
80+ 87.22% - 100.00% 11.49% - 0.00% 1.29% - 0.00%

For those who prefer things in more visual terms, the graph below plots game score against the three possible decisions - loss, no-decision and win - at various levels of Game Score. As you'll see, the odds of a no-decision remains relatively constant, except at the extreme ends of the performance spectrum.

Wl_medium

Comparing the Diamondbacks' numbers to the expected ones, the biggest gap is in the upper middle of performances, something previously touched upon by Diamondhacks. As a yardstick, league average was 50, and Adam Wainwright's mean GS this year was 59, But in 39 games with a GS of 55-64, the Arizona rotation went only 10-13: they would be predicted to go 19-7 in starts of that caliber. The reason for the gulf is simple: in those 39 games, the offense scored more than four runs only eight times, and one or zero a dozen times. We got good pitching - only three of those outings were not quality starts - but the hitters just didn't show up.

On an individual basis, there's a couple of ways you can use the data. The quick and dirty approach is to take a pitcher's average Game Score over the season, see what group he falls into, and multiply by his starts. For example, Dan Haren's average GS was 61, so he's expected to win 0.5281 * 33 = 17.4 games. If you want something a little less granular, take each start and allocate a fraction of W and L accordingly. Haren's first start had a GS of 76 - he took the loss (3-0 vs. Colorado), but by the chart , the performance was actually worth 0.7796 wins and only 0.0427 losses. Do this for each game and add up total wins and losses to get a cumulative number. The chart below gives the numbers calculated by each method (QWL = Quick W-L; CWL = Cumulative W-L) for our starters.

Name Avg GS QWL CWL
Dan Haren 61 17-5 17-7
Doug Davis 51 12-10 12-11
Max Scherzer 50 10-9 11-10
Jon Garland 48 7-10 9-10
Yusmeiro Petit 45 4-6 5-7
Billy Buckner 45 3-5 4-5

 

There isn't too much difference between the two methods - the quick way tends to give the pitcher fewer decisions, but they're within a couple of each other in all the cases. Carving up the data in another way, we can compare Average Game Score with Win %. It seems reasonable to think that an AGD of 0 would see you lose every time, an AGS of 100 would get you a 100% Win %, and an AGS of 50 would see a pitcher get close to an even record. So which NL starters had the biggest gap between their AGS and Win %? Here are those at both ends of the table (min. 10 starts)

Name AGS W-L
Josh Geer 45 1-7
Ross Detwiler 45 1-6
Nelson Figueroa 51 3-8
Felipe Paulino 45 3-11
Yusmeiro Petit 45 3-10
----------------------- ----- -----
Josh Johnson 57 15-5
Chris Carpenter 62 17-4
J.A. Happ 56 12-4
Clayton Richard 50 5-2
Braden Looper
44 14-7

All six of the main Diamondbacks starters ended up in the top half of the 97 qualifying starters: Petit (#5); Davis (#17); Scherzer (#31); Buckner (#36); Garland (#42); Haren (#45). Kershaw, incidentally, was #26 by this method, with an AGS of 58 and a .500 record. Worth remembering this chart the next time tries to tell you that wins and losses are a good measure of a pitcher's ability. As measured by Game Score, any of the top five pitchers were better than Braden Looper - but mustered only eleven wins between them, with 42 losses, fewer victories in 75 starts, than Looper got all by himself.

For interest, the chart below plots W% against Game Score for every pitcher since 2000 with ten or more starts. Here's the Google spreadsheet with the numbers, if anyone wants to analyze them further - also included are ERA, ERA+, OPS and OPS+ for each starterr. The resulting correlation between Game Score and W%, at 0.61, is actually fractionally better than that for ERA+ (-0.60) or OPS+ (-0.57).

Wlgs_medium

This method of analysis does have some limitations. Game Score doesn't take into account park factors, for example, I'm not overly happy with the bonus points it awards for strikeouts, and for some pitchers, the W-L record can include relief appearances. However, based not only upon it, but other metrics as well, it does suggest that our starting pitching was really not much of the problem last season. Virtually across the entire rotation, from Haren to Buckner, none of them got the W-L record their performances deserved.

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A lot of work...

Thanks Jim. Good stuff, here. I’m sure with all that work you wish you could have uncovered something more exciting, but the numbers seem to bear out what we all intuitively thought.

I wonder if the lower win % for the 55-64 and (I assume) the slightly higher win % for the lower #s is a result of the inconsistency of our offense.

"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8

by njjohn on Dec 19, 2009 8:54 AM EST reply actions  

Statistics Confirm Anecdotal Observation

I think we knew this, watching last season: the problem wasn’t the starting pitching; it was the offense and the defense. Sure, we had some lousy starts, but the vast majority of games were lost by other failings.
And, looking ahead, our starting rotation should be stronger (if healthy) in 2010. Now we need hits with RISP and better defense in order to contend.

Key to the game: Score More

by pygalgia on Dec 19, 2009 9:20 AM EST reply actions  

Should be, but may not. . .

Starting pitching is probably going to be a little less effective next season, as it stands right now. Webb at number one is anybody’s guess. Jackson for Davis is a push, and Scherzer’s departure weakens the lower end.

by NASCARbernet on Dec 19, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Webb can be #5

and it would still be better. I hope.

by Counsellmember on Dec 19, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

We'll see. . .

He may make a rapid full recovery and go out and win 18 games, or (more likely) display some real inconsistency during the first part of the season then settle down and become effective for the second half. The third possibility . . . I’d rather not consider because like everyone else here, I want to see him successful. He seems to be a good guy.

by NASCARbernet on Dec 19, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll take

Haren/Webb/Jackson/Kennedy/Buckner (w/ cutter) over Haren/Davis/Scherzer/Garland/FAIL any day.

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 19, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL@FAIL

….of course, with the exception of the Petit Unit, don’t we have all of our FAIL guys back this year anyway?

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 20, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

But

FAILBuckner has been converted into Buckner w/cutter. A nice improvement, IMO. Also, Rodrigo Lopez is our second option over Augenstein and Mulvey. And maybe a year makes them less likely to be FAIL-quality?

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 21, 2009 12:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Another data point

confirming the notion that the DBacks were VERY unlucky last year. Their pythagorean numbers suggest they should have won as many as 10 more games than they did. Not that that would have made them a playoff team but how differently might we be viewing them if they had won 80 games? Or what if they had outperformed their pythag numbers like in 07 and won 85 games? Something to consider when you evaluate the season.

As long as we’re talking pitchers, I was chatting with a Mariners fan and mentioned that Petit would be a good fit for them – flyball pitcher in a huge park with a great outfield. It occurred to me that Petit’s ERA in his time with the DBacks is probably higher than his representative ability. Here’s why: he was rarely permitted to extend starts beyond 6 IP and 80 pitches and lest we forget, he did have a lot of 5-6 inning starts where he pitched well. So while he suffered the poor starts every starter goes through, he wasn’t allowed to extend starts where he was pitching well. I’m not going to run numbers but tack on a few extra innings to his short good starts and his ERA would probably look a little better than it was.

by golfmanthee on Dec 19, 2009 11:01 AM EST reply actions  

Well,

You also have to consider that his starts were often cut off because he would completely tank after five or six innings and around 90 pitches. But that park and defense in Seattle will do him wonders, so that in itself makes Seattle probably the best fit in baseball for the guy.

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 19, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Jim, you fool!

It’s “deserts”!!

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 12:21 PM EST reply actions  

And since when

Did Soco’s keys to the game include “desert?”

Sheesh. Really.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Dec 19, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

What?

It’s “deserts” because it comes from the root “deserve”.

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Right.

“Deserve” coming from the Latin root “eser,” meaning to be full of it. So if you connect the dots all the way back…

Actually, this is too complicated. Never mind.

by Azreous on Dec 19, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

de-sert3  /dɪˈzɜrt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [di-zurt] Show IPA
–noun 1. Often, deserts. reward or punishment that is deserved: to get one’s just deserts.
2. the state or fact of deserving reward or punishment.
3. the fact of deserving well; merit; virtue.

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

The internet supports ’Skins here.

"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."

by kishi on Dec 19, 2009 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Second place is first loser

I know most people here understand this concept, but I thought I’d point it out anyway as it’s an approach the team takes that I like.

That is, when the season becomes a lost one and playoff hopes are gone, the team gets rid of the non-core, one year players in deadline trades.

I would rather sit at 70-92 with Allen, Abreu, Mulvey, and the #6 pick in next year’s draft than at 80-82 and pat ourselves on the back for a race well run. That’s not to say I want the team to give up and play like crap after July, it’s the manager’s job to motivate the players. But I think the FO played it right and made the team’s future better, at the expense of their own image in driving a team into the ground.

by Counsellmember on Dec 19, 2009 12:26 PM EST reply actions  

BUT WE TRADED JOHN GARLEND TO A DIVISION RIVAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

’cause no one else could have stopped the monster offense that was the 2009 Arizona Diamondbacks.

And it paid off awesome for the Dodgers, too- Garland was unstoppable in the playoffs for them, and he’s going to be a long-term positive for LA that’s well worth giving up a valued prospect.

Oh, wait.

"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."

by kishi on Dec 19, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, yes, it really did.

We got our 2B of the future and took away the Dodgers’ 2B of the future, and at the cost of a guy we’d already paid for.

I still don’t see why this is so hard for you to understand.

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's a baseball secret. . .

In terms of real worth, that is to say winning, a competent starting pitcher is more valuable than a competent everyday player.

by NASCARbernet on Dec 19, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure

If we’re talking about the same span. But are you really saying you’d rather have two months of competent starting pitcher in a season that’s already lost than the potential of years of competent everyday player in the future, where we have a better chance- or a chance at all- to contend?

"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."

by kishi on Dec 19, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry

One month of a competent starting pitcher.

"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."

by kishi on Dec 19, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

If you're going to use that standard

how many months did a competent fielder win for the ’backs last season, or any season? The game is measured in pitcher wins and losses, not second basemen wins and losses.

by NASCARbernet on Dec 19, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, man

If only there was some way to consider that. Like some stat that estimated the value of a player in the amount they contributed to the team in wins, perhaps compared to some sort of hypothetical “average replacement” player at their position.

Well, I guess we’ll never know.

I’m reminded of the words of Jimmy James, Macho Business Donkey Wrestler. “Well, you know… it’s LIKE when a clown is making like a car… racer… it’s sorta… like… the FCC. The CLOWN… the clown is like the FCC… and I was opposed to the FCC at the time, right? So it was like I was declaring War. WARRRR!”

"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."

by kishi on Dec 19, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

As I mentioned in the Haren thread,

you don’t HAVE to take our word for it. Just ask some Dodger fans.

If the dodgers give up Abreu for this guy, I think they may have a screw loose. Tony Abreu is one of if not their top prospect. Why would they give him away for just a months and playoff rental. Give away someone else who isn’t hitting .351 in minor league ball. I just wouldn’t give up a top prosepect for a man who is barely a type B pitcher, just saying.
wheres the link about Abreu. I REALLY hope thats wrong, unless he has more health issues than we thought.
There’s no way in hell I would give up Tony Abreu for Garland, but I’ll reserve that outrage until the other shoe drops.
but trading abreu for garland was flat out dumb
Abreu is much better than Watt. Abreu already played in the major leagues, and played reasonably well. Losing him hurts.

If you think 36 innings from Jon Garland is worth more than 5 years of a starting 2B, then like I said, you’re either Jon Garland’s mother, or totally out of your mind.

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

And

Only one of his starts was against a team with a record over .500. I mean, he had two starts against the 62-99 Pirates, and he took the loss on one of those.

"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."

by kishi on Dec 19, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

....ouch!

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I dont have a problem

with the Dbacks flipping Garland, but you’re trying way too hard to minimize his contribution to the Dodgers. Fact is, he pitched magnificently, five quality starts in six tries, with a 2.72 ERA, just when the Dodgers were reeling and in danger of squandering the division.

LA got just what they wanted, and then some

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Dec 20, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't mean to minimize what he did for the Dodgers

Just emphasize that A) he wasn’t facing top-flight opponents (I mean, two starts against the Diamondbacks? Come on, trying beating a Major League-caliber team, am I right?), B) the six starts he puts up don’t really amount to much in the long-run for the Dodgers, and C) the value received in Abreu more than makes up for what we lost in trading Garland.

"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."

by kishi on Dec 20, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Hard to say he had much impact.

The Dodgers were 3-3 in Garland’s starts and scored 22 runs over the victories, so would probably have won most of those, regardless of who was on the mound. And as two-thirds of the starts came against teams who ended with 70 wins or fewer, I’m suspect Garland less “pitched magnificently,” than the opposition he faced phoned it in for meaningless games.

I also note the Dodgers were so impressed with Garland, he didn’t throw a single pitch in the post-season…

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Dec 20, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Was he

even eligible for postseason play?

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 20, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes. Remember him getting traded during the game in LA, in order to beat the deadline?

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Dec 20, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahh, yes.

But I didn’t recall that that was the reason. Did the Dodgers decide to include him on their postseason roster?

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 21, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

On Roster for NLDS, not NLCS

Garland was on the postseason roster for the NLDS, but was left off the roster for the NLCS. For the NLCS, Scott Elbert and Hiroki Kuroda were added, and Garland and Jeff Weaver were dropped.

http://bit.ly/8LjVzi
http://bit.ly/6D4ASJ

by Amit on Dec 21, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

What a bag of stale pretzels you weave?
I’m suspect…the opposition he faced phoned it in for meaningless games.

Yeah, I can tell that’s an interjection driven by good faith scholarship ;-)

Like on Sept 3, when the Dbacks held the vaunted LA lineup to four runs, and Garland beat them 4-2. “Regardless of who was on the mound” my ass.

Or Sept 9th, when he went toe to toe with Dan Haren (who we all know loves to phone in meaningless games), and LA’s bullpen lost it 4-3.

Or Sept 14th and 19th when the Dodgers scored runs, and Garland won both, saving LA’s bullpen by pitching 14 innings, yielding two runs.

Or Sept 25th, when those shitty Pirates who phone in games held LA to a single run and beat Garland 3-1, despite the fact he went six, none earned.

On Sept 30th, in his sixth start after the trade, JG threw his only remotely bad game for LA, and lost, as the Dodgers were predictably shut out.

Garland won his only gimme game, when the Dodgers scored twelve runs. In the other five starts, the Dodgers scored a total of fourteen runs. Garland won two of those games, and probably deserved to win three or four.

Anyone with an iota of scruples can look at the box scores and discern that a less effective pitcher could have easily – indeed almost assuredly would have, lost more games than Garland did.

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Dec 20, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

You left out

A pretty important qualifier there in the “…” portion of that quote. It’s taken a bit out of context.

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 21, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow. You really don't like even mild disagreement, do you?
Anyone with an iota of scruples can look at the box scores and discern that a less effective pitcher could have easily – indeed almost assuredly would have, lost more games than Garland did.

So, Mr. Iota – which victories for the Dodgers would have become losses for “a less effective pitcher”? At least you agree the 12-1 win over the Giants was a gimme. So that’s one evaporated.

What about the win over the 62-win Pirates? Even replacement level ERA (5.75), would have left Pittsburgh short, so Garland was unnecessary there too. And beating the Pirates late last season hardly required anything more than showing up: they lost 23 of 26 between Aug 28-Sep 24. Like I said: phoning it in for meaningless games.

Really, your frothing indignation is entirely based on exactly one game Garland’s presence might have affected: beating Arizona on Sept.3. This was part of a 2-10 streak for the D-backs, when we were also losing to “less effective pitchers” like Braden Looper (2009 ERA+ 77). That’s all you’ve got: Garland beating a team who went 10-20 after the start of September; once again, phoning it in for meaningless games.

There’s no denying Garland pitched well for LA down the stretch. But his impact on the Dodgers’ actual W-L record and thus their “very nearly squandering the division”? Very likely close to zero.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Dec 21, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Mild, medium or hot

is fine with me, Pedro. It’s this reflexive and bogus argumentation that’s at issue. You agree Garland pitched “well” and I agree he pitched against a weak (actually, very weak) schedule. But then you inject this scathing generalization about “phoning in games”, and insist on misapplying this general theory/fact to specific instances, even after I’ve linked every individual box score, disproving the specific case!

If anything, it often appeared the Dodgers were the team mailing it in. Except for the 12-1 blowby, of course. You made a classic blunder of deduction – general to specific.

In addition, your claim that Garland was “unnecessary” in the 6-2 win, is tenuous and kinda snotty. I’ll certainly grant that most pitchers would be happy with six runs, but the fact is, teams lose when they score six, including your theoretical Replacement Dude, because, a 5.75 ERA suggests he’s giving up six near half the time – actiually more often since you havent accounted for unearned runs.

Garland won three games when a replacement pitcher (whatever the hell that is this week) would’ve only banked on one, might’ve won two and bloody likely wouldn’t win three. I’m not saying that makes him Matt Kemp, or makes Ned Colletti a genius, but you’re going out of your way here to make LA’s acquisition of Garland sound inconsequential.

Anti-LA bias? Anti-hacks’ bias? At this point, I dont really care. I’ve got better things to do Christmas week than cater to your contentious nature.

Later on, I hope we can agree to agree about something, for the good of humanity, like how Clinton and Bush 41 agreed to collaborate on tsunami relief. It could be anything really. We could agree to agree that the Scherzer/Jackson trade was “provocative” or that Rusty Ryal has “the right stuff”. It doesnt matter what, but when debating, we could reference this point of agreement just before things hurtle out of control. Like a “safeword”. I think that would be fun. Give it some thought, wont you?

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Dec 21, 2009 4:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Couple of points
I’ll certainly grant that most pitchers would be happy with six runs, but the fact is, teams lose when they score six, including your theoretical Replacement Dude, because, a 5.75 ERA suggests he’s giving up six near half the time – actiually more often since you havent accounted for unearned runs.

Last year in the NL, teams went 149-58 when scoring exactly six runs in regulation. That’s a 72% win percentage. Sure, losses happen, but it’s clearly a case where the offense deserves much more credit than the pitcher.

Garland’s three victories are just not games “a less effective pitcher could easily have…lost” One came with a dozen runs in support, and the other two were against opponents in the middle of dismal 3-23 and 6-16 stretches. In contrast, the Dodgers – “the team mailing it in,” according to you – were 17-13 after the end of August, a W% barely less than the season as a whole.

Now, if you’d said “he pitched well enough in the defeats to get a W,” I would have been right there alongside you. So there’s your agreement. :-) Garland probably doesn’t deserve much blame for the defeats – but he doesn’t deserve much credit for the victories either.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Dec 21, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

You're repeating

the erroneous deduction – taking generally true info (about bad teams) and misapplying it to specific situations.

Generally speaking, over the course of the year, or month, we agree the Pirates and Dbacks sucked and the Dodgers were better, and it’s reasonable to assume that Garland’s ERA was aided by those relatively sucky lineups. To suggest, for example, that his 2.72 ERA isnt as impressive as if it was accomplished vs the Phillies and Rockies seems to me a (very) reasonable deduction.

But games are specific events and winning each game depends on far more unique variables than simply one side’s proverbially (generally) weak lineup. It doesnt matter a whole helluva lot how much better the Dodgers generally were than the Dbacks, if Haren’s holding LA to four runs in a specific game. Especially in baseball. You know that.

In terms of winning that game, it mattered terribly more that Garland specifically held a lineup (ARI), that generally scores four or more runs 56% of the time, to two runs.

The 12-1 game, of course, is just the opposite. Throw the generalities out, pretty much anyone could’ve and would’ve won that specific game for LA.
 
And I think anyone who examines the 6-2 game can see Garland was instrumental to that victory as well. It was a 2-2 game in the top of the fifth, before LA scored four unanswered runs to pull away. Was Garland dominant? No. But he gave the superior Dodgers a chance to pull away (much like he did in most of those hard luck losses) , and in this instance, they did. He deserves credit for that. It’s not quite the same as if he was “given” a six run headstart or handicap. The game evolved into a Dodger win, and he was a big part of that.

So, when you concede:

Garland probably doesn’t deserve much blame for the defeats – but he doesn’t deserve much credit for the victories either

…it’s really not much of a concession, in my eyes. It’s like you have an axe to grind, with either me or Garland, or the idea that LA received value in the pickup. Maybe all three.

We’ll never really know if Garland preserved first place for the Dodgers, so I wont press the point. But he helped them win games.

cheers

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Dec 22, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s like you have an axe to grind, with either me or Garland, or the idea that LA received value in the pickup. Maybe all three.

Y’know, have you ever thought that sometimes, a disagreement could just be a disagreement? No axes, hidden agenda or conspiratorial overtones? I just don’t feel Garland deserves much credit for stopping a 62-win team, in their worst slump of the season, from scoring seven runs.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Dec 22, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

NASCAR — you’re on an island, here. Of all the trades to critique the FO over, the Garland one is the last one I’d aim at.

"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8

by njjohn on Dec 19, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's a common sense secr-- well, actually it's not a secret at all...

one month, in a lost season, of a starting pitcher is NOT worth 3 years of a starting second baseman.

If anything, we ripped off the Dodgers.

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay

you guys can trot out all the wonderful back flip artist second basemen (JB was apparently a 2nd baseman in college) you want, baseball is still about pitching.

I remember someone here on these boards (was it you?) whom whined about how terrible the D’backs winning the World Series was because it was so expensive.

If you work for the D’backs, be honest, and admit it’s about business, and not the game.

by NASCARbernet on Dec 19, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

"Baseball is still about pitching"

And what are the other eight guys out there for?

"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."

by kishi on Dec 19, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

modeling

and recipe exchanges?

"If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe!"

by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 21, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

What?

I’ve got some great recipes! Dammit, Josh Byrnes, I should be out there!

"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."

by kishi on Dec 22, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually,

I think most of the posters at this site are upset at the degree to which Colangelo mortgaged our future and saddled us with debt to win the 2001 WS.

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

And no.

I do NOT work for the Dbacks, although I wish I did.

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

That would be my whine

I prefer vodka, but whine is okay when the situation calls for it

I care not for the outcome if the price to be paid is taking a franchise to the verge of bankruptcy. One has only to look at the Coyotes, whom i also support, to see how that has affected the team and its fans (going bankrupt, that is.) What’s done is done. the team is still here and seems to be getting its financial house in order. time to move on.

"If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe!"

by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 21, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

The ends justifies the means...sometimes

If you could gaurantee me another title, you can take my team to the edge of bankrupcy. The years since 2001 have not been nearly as painful for the Dbacks as it has for some other teams. We still had a couple of division titles and a couple runners-up.

However, I would not advocate such measures in the future. It’s hard to gaurantee that 9th inning bloop off Mariano.

by Counsellmember on Dec 22, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, and it should be mentioned

He beat us once. We won the second game he started against us.

"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."

by kishi on Dec 19, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

But, dammit, Devin!

We could have gone 71-91 instead of 70-92 if we had traded him out of the division!

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh goodness,

Heaven forbid! Darn you Jon Garland for ruining our playoff hopes!!!

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 19, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Its the FO's job

to spend the money and negotiate the contract to get the better player under contract. It’s the fans’ job to be entertained by the play on the field. I wasn’t all that entertained last season, and so far, I’m not expecting much this season, although there’s still some time for the FO to make some sensible, win-oriented moves. But if we think that the ‘backs are stronger for letting Rauch, Garland, Davis, Scherzer et al go (because someone doesn’t like to spend money on contracts) essentially in exchange for a competent Jackson and an very unproven Kennedy, some here are going to be having to spend a lot of time next season apologizing and spinning the make up of the pitching staff.

by NASCARbernet on Dec 19, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

That depends.

They gave up one year of a relief pitcher in Jon Rauch for a starting pitcher in Kevin Mulvey. They gave up one month of Garland for 5 years of a starting second baseman. Letting Davis walk gives us $12 million to spend on someone else, and his replacement, Jackson, is younger, cheaper, and had a better 2009 than Davis. And given that Scherzer’s extremely likely to suffer a career-ending shoulder injury over the next 5 years, we may have essentially just gotten Ian Kennedy and Edwin Jackson in exchange for a LOOGY who can’t find the strike zone.

So, if by “stronger”, you mean “more competitive”, then yeah. We just got stronger with those trades. If by “stronger” you actually mean “weaker”, then no.

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

To be fair,

I am not at all impressed with Kevin Mulvey. Even in his last couple of “major-league ready” AAA seasons his ERA has floated around 4, whereas, for comparison’s sake, Buckner’s was 3.32 last year at AAA, and was around 2 once he developed his cutter. He’s also already in his mid-20’s, so I see Mulvey as a guy we move to the ’pen for middle/long relief once we decide to keep him in the majors, but if he cuts down his pitch repertoire to just his best two or maybe three and focuses on completely polishing them, he could be very effective.

So we trade a year of Rauch, which admittedly is a year of Rauch I’d kind of like to have because of the fact that we’re hoping to contend next year and he could help us, for a few years of what will probably be relief in Mulvey. But, then again, Rauch would have cost us $2.9M next year, and we could probably get Chan Ho Park for cheaper. Heck, we could get Capps for cheaper and his market has absolutely exploded for little-to-no reason at all. So we add Mulvey for his minor-league $400k, and probably get a reliever of similar quality to Rauch for Rauch…

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 19, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

An opinion

I’m not sure where in the MLB rule book it states what the job of the FO is exactly, but I would like it to be something along the lines of being competative most years and reaching the post season every couple of seasons.

You say you were not entertained last season. Had we not made those trades, would you have been more entertianed to conitue watching a losing club? Would you have been more entertained going into the next season with a smaller chance at victory because we had refused to trade in division?

You entertainment needs cannot be taken a year at a time. The FO can’t go “all in” every year to pad the W/L record. The big picture needs to be attended to, and that is what they did during the second half last year. I think they did right.

by Counsellmember on Dec 19, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well,

The FO can go “all-in” every year to pad the W/L record, but then you just become the post-‘04-WS White Sox. A bunch of old guys they ought to trade to rebuild with Beckham and the kids, and the waiver-claims and stop-gaps they pick up to try to make yet another “playoff run.” For 2010’s roster, see Pierre, Juan.

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 19, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

2010 NL West WAR

My preliminary 2010 NL West WAR worksheet is up. It has the Diamondbacks improving on their 2009 win total by quite a bit…. not that that was really difficult to do. :)
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Dec 19, 2009 2:29 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting stuff - thanks for sharing this.

Can you expand a bit on “Misc. suckitude” which, especially for the hitters, seems to hit the Diamondbacks particularly hard?

But seems pretty close between everyone but the Padres, with seven wins covering the top four teams.

"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil

by Jim McLennan on Dec 19, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmm....

good point about the suckitude.

"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Sucktitude is projected negative WAR. Padres top the chart because they are most likely to use below replacement level (minor leaguer) players during the season. The Padres had a ton of “sucktitude” (negative WAR) last year and most likely again this year too. Hope that helps. :)
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Dec 19, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmm

an interesting concept. Would the overall team WAR increase if Allen was slated as the starting 1B and Jackson was moved to LF so Parra could be the UT? Or I suppose adding a 1B bat would help help matters even more, since our roster as it would stand has Ryal as the backup 1B, with… Byrne in the minors, then probably Ryan Wheeler… Yikes that’s grim. Trying to think of the minor-league replacements we have and how poor they’d be if we had to turn to them. In the OF we have Gillespie, who I’d imagine is a negligible-to-positive WAR guy, not any worse than EB would be. Snyder wouldn’t be a huge drop from Montero if he is healthy. And I don’t see us having to turn to many minor-league MIF or 3B with Ojeda, Roberts, Ryal, Abreu all in the same ballpark. I LOVE though how Ojeda is the highest WAR projected 2B starter in the division…

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 19, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

+1 on Ojeda. Fabulous! :)

"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8

by njjohn on Dec 20, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Or I suppose adding a 1B bat would help help matters even more, since our roster as it would stand has Ryal as the backup 1B…

This is really what keeps us from putting a scare into the rest of the division. I know you dissed the Nick Johnson idea, and understand the risks, but he doesnt just bring isolated value. He (along with the return of Jackson) changes the whole dynamic of the offense. He puts Allen and Parra on the bench (or even AAA), where they belong, solidifying our bench and internal competitiveness. For a non-dominant team like the Diamondbacks, the only thing costlier than Nick Johnson is grooming a starting first baseman.

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Dec 20, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand how good Nick Johnson is

With the bat. I just wouldn’t be comfortable with him outside of the AL. I think the Giants would have regretted it if they gave him years (although stating this is rather pointless, as it’s impossible to prove by either of us, whether in the affirmative or the contrary…). If we’re going to invest our money, I want to know that we’re going to get production, rather than hope we’re going to get production. As much as I don’t want to admit it, the 2010 D-Backs’ playoff hopes rely on a shaky foundation. Webb has to stay healthy. Jackson, CY, and Drew need to return to form. It’s a lot of chances. I don’t see the benefit of piling them on even further, despite the possible reward of a .420 OBP first baseman.

It’s why I kind of want to platoon Allen, because I have faith in his ability to hit righties in 2010. The lefties just scare the bejeezus out of me for him. In 2011, when Webb is gone and we’ve settled into the middle-of-the-division arena, I’ll be more comfortable with the idea of developing him for the 2013-2014 era, but I want to try to add definite pieces for 2010.

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 21, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Valuing relative certainty

over high end potential sounds prudent for 2010, but let me throw the application of your thesis back at ya.

You said you had faith in Allen’s ability to hit righties, implying we just need to get some “certainty” on the right side (ie Gomes). What’s the basis of your faith in Allen? I’m curious because I see him as a very uncertain, “potential” kind of guy in 2010. Even with Nick Johnson’s injury history, Johnson felt like a more sure source of production to me (albeit more expensive).

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Dec 23, 2009 3:10 AM EST up reply actions  

I have none, really

But you made the budget point for me. Do you think we’re going to be able to spend the money to get an everyday guy (we could hardly afford Adam LaRoche as it is, and although he’s sturdy, he’s not a game-changer), or are we stuck with a budget to only get a platoon guy with our desire to also add a bullpen arm? I think with the way the budget is, we have to go for as much certainty as we can in 2010 with all of the uncertainty already embedded in this roster. At least if we get certainty from one side, that’s something we can depend on.

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 23, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmm...

So there’s really that big of a WAR discrepancy between Haren and Lincecum? Interesting… I dono why I just find that odd.

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 19, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps most perplexing

Is the discrepancy between Haren and Ubaldo not being that high…

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 19, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

And Tool-O as the highest rated position player in the West. Hmmm…

"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8

by njjohn on Dec 19, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

That

Made me a sad panda.

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 19, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks Xeifrank

This looks very reasonable and a good starting point for discussions

If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09

by Diamondhacks on Dec 20, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You're welcome &

the NL West (minus San Diego) could be a four dog race. Whichever team that avoids the catastrophic injuries and has the most “break-out” candidates could very well win the division.
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Dec 20, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

This

Is probably what it’ll come down to. As scary as that is to say and as much as it kind of makes all speculation and discussion unnecessary…

"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."

by Dan Strittmatter on Dec 21, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Buckner

Ive always liked. I hope he does well this upcoming season.

I laugh until my head comes off.

by edbigghead on Dec 22, 2009 4:08 PM EST reply actions  

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