Free Agents: Anyone You Want To Buy?
I've been looking at the list of free agents, and I'm not seeing anyone that I'm in any rush to buy. Matt Holliday is going to cost a fortune as a hitter, as is pitcher John Lackey. Both are very good, but overpriced in the current market. So, who's left? Jason Bay? Chone Figgins? For pitching, Randy Wolf or Rich Harden? Maybe Mark DeRosa as a utility player?
I'm just not seeing any quick fixes on the list. We could always bring back past mediocrity, such as Jose Valverde, or Orlando Hudson, or Felipe Lopez, Doug Davis, or Jon Garland.
Would Nick Johnson or Adam LaRoche really be better than a Jackson/Allen platoon? Jermaine Dye or Mike Cameron or Marlon Byrd as outfield help? Maybe Coco Crisp?
Is there anybody on the free agent list that you really want? Because I'm not seeing any obvious answers.
1 recs |
200 comments
Comments
Chone Figgins
maybe as help if Abreu doesent pan out and can play other positions as well. Is a proven leadoff hitter something we dont have.
by SaveUsY2J on Nov 22, 2009 6:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
my reluctance
While there is a lot about Figgins that I like (leadoff), here are my doubts:
Signing a player off of a career year…will he be that good again? Paying the price of a players best year can bite later (see Eric Byrnes).
While he’s versatile, he’s not filling our biggest holes. Unless he plays third and Reynolds moves to first (not a bad option, but not a solution, either).
Second? That seems to be his weakest position.
Key to the game: Score More
by pygalgia on Nov 22, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Marquis plz.
Nick Johnson is awesome so long as he’s healthy. LaRoche has always been unappreciated but he’s not our answer.
by CaptainCanuck on Nov 22, 2009 7:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes on Johnson
As for Marquis, we’d be paying for all these wins he had last year.
He’s a good pitcher, but he’s coming off a season he probably can’t replicate, and probably wants to get paid.
LaRoche might be a good pick up as a right handed first baseman, as long as he signs on the cheap. $10M for 2 years would be a good deal.
by paqs on Nov 23, 2009 2:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wat
Why can’t Marquis replicate his season? I don’t see why not.
As for LaRoche… He’s left handed.
by CaptainCanuck on Nov 24, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Career ERA+ = 99
Last year’s figure of 113 was a good ten points better than any season since 2004. At age 31, he’s not likely to see much more natural improvement.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Nov 24, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but
It’s like Jayson Werth busting out late. The past couple of years he’s basically been an average pitcher, with another good season under his belt. Couple that with the fact that he’s one of the best ground ball pitcher available, I don’t see why we shouldn’t give him a shot.
by CaptainCanuck on Nov 25, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's not like we haven't seen this before
From Marquis. We saw it in St. Louis when he was a heavy ground-ball pitcher then got paid in Chicago and gave up being successful. The fact that he did it in ANOTHER contract year shouldn’t surprise anyone. He’ll want multiple years, get it, then disappoint.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 25, 2009 5:05 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
The other issue with Marquis is that he is a FB guy. That works okay (ironically enough) in post-humidor CO, but it won’t work in AZ.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Nov 25, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Marquis
He is a sinkerballer, thus a groundball pitcher. He gets hurt by the flyball, as do all sinkerballers. He could work in Arizona if he pitches the way he did the first half of last season where everything was down. Once he loses pitches up in the zone, they end up being long fly balls. Generally though, he will produce more groundballs. Anyway he will cost too much money and won’t be the guy from the first half of last year again.
by rapdawg on Nov 25, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Front-paged
Since it’s a very interesting topic [though it’ll probably last longer on the side-bar!]. Just for the record, it seems from Nick P’s calculations that we had about $14m in the budget before the acquisition of Heilman. Assuming he’ll be about the $2m mark for 2010 gives us only about $12m for next season.
That really doesn’t feel like too much money immediately, given what I see as our needs. Roughly in order of priority:
1) A starting pitcher, ideally a LHP
2) A right-handed first-baseman
3) Another bullpen arm maybe
4) Second-base
I can see the first being the focus of our attentions, not least because there really is very little available in the second category – one of the reasons I was probably in favor of the Snyder-Overbay swap. The concept of Russell Branyan has been mooted, but as the only 1B in the top 20 agents, demand will likely outweight supplies: an injury risk such as Johnson may indeed be a more likely option.
While there isn’t much as far as top-tier free agent starters go, we’re not looking for one. We just need a Davis replacement, and I’m seeing a good few possibilities there. I wouldn’t be surprised to see us kick the tires on Pedro, and Justin Duchscherer might be worth a look. I don’t think we’ll get Davis back (one of these seasons, his peripherals will come home to roost: we dodged the bullet for three years, and that’s enough Russian Roulette, time to let someone else pick up the revolver), but maybe offer Jon Garland another $7m to come back? Ben Sheets is another pitcher with huge potential upside, but he comes with a lot of risk.
I can see the other two areas perhaps being left to fend for themselves, hoping the bullpen sorts itself out with the addition of Heilman (can’t be any less productive than Gordon and Schoeneweis last year) and Ryan Roberts/Tony Abreu prove to be adequate at second-base.
But that’s just my thoughts. This is definitely one of those winters I am glad that I amn’t Josh Byrnes. :-)
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Nov 22, 2009 9:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
for the promo.
I agree that a SP (preferably a lefty) should be our first priority; I’m just not sure that anybody available excites me. There are several gambles, but no real sure bets.
As far as first base, I really want to see if CoJack can return to form. If (always such a big word) he can, that solves one right-handed bat problem.
And there’s always the potential for trades…
Key to the game: Score More
by pygalgia on Nov 23, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about
Jared Washburn? I know he got spanked last year after being traded, and although he’s not as good as he showed in Seattle, he’s not as bad as he showed in Detroit. Somewhere comfortably between those production levels in the AL has to be good enough for a solid 4th starter in the NL, and nobody’s going to give him more than a year, and nobody’s going to overpay for him. Heck, we can even use that to our advantage and try to give him two years if we want to make sure we get him. He’d be able to be servicable in 2011 as a #5 and hopefully by then our #5 this year, Billy Buckner, might have improved enough to step in as a #4.
I don’t get the panic for a 1B solution. We just traded for Allen, we want him presumably to someday be an everyday guy, so even if Co-Jack can’t platoon at first every day there’s a LHP (presumably because we also want to platoon him with Gerardo Parra in LF), why not give Allen the chance to improve? The only way the kid’s going to get better is with ABs.
And since Washburn isn’t going to cost us $12M, that gives us some funds to go out and nab ourselves a final, solidifying bullpen arm, probably not a Rafael Betancourt, but maybe a Brandon Lyon or a Ryota Igarashi from Japan.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 23, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I really like the Brandon Lyon part of this. I would love to see him come back to us.
I could be sold on Washburn if the price is low enough, although I enjoyed DD over the years and its too bad he is most likely not coming back.
Ahh the off season.
by Bcawz on Nov 24, 2009 2:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Dave Cameron on USSMariner.com says the Mariners can’t afford him, cause he’ll want $10M or more. Plus, as a fly ball guy, he’s not a really good fit for Chase field.
I’d still like us to get a good bat, the lineup is definitely the weakest part of this team.
by paqs on Nov 24, 2009 4:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There is no way Washburn gets paid $10M by anyone. If there is anything we learned last year it’s that the middle of the pack guys are going to take a big hit with the economy…
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Nov 24, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
$10M???
Wow someone did not watch himself down the stretch.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 25, 2009 5:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I don’t think 8 starts for Detroit are going to bring his price all the way down. He was very very good in Seattle for the majority of the season and if you take everything into account, he’s coming of a 116 ERA+ season.
by paqs on Nov 30, 2009 5:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Eight starts don't
But the stuff you demonstrate during those starts does. He feasted off one of the best defensive outfields in baseball in Seattle. Teams know this.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 6, 2009 3:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again
The stuff you demonstrate in 25 starts are more important than the stuff you demonstrate in 8 starts.
He’s a flyball guy, yes, and he depends on outfield defense, but he’s still good. We’ll just have to see how much teams are willing to pay for him.
by paqs on Dec 7, 2009 5:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I DEMAND WE SIGN SHEETS!
I can’t state this capitalized enough.
Indianapolis Colts, taking focus away from my DBacks every Sunday.
by AJforAZ on Nov 24, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It all depends on the price. It would be fantastic if we could get him, though.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Nov 24, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
trouble is
our FO doesn’t like incentive deals. Seems to me we’re looking for a guy to pitch 200 innings of average quality, like last year.
100 innings of Sheets (provided he pitches like the Sheets of 2 years ago) plus 100 innings of Mulvey (or whoever, replacement level) are probably better overall, but this way you know what you’re getting up front.
by paqs on Nov 30, 2009 5:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Incentive deals
Are fine with the front-office when you’re talking about a pitcher coming back from injury. See Tom Gordon, for example. However, I hope we have a better contingency plan than the triple-headed beast of Webb replacement suckage we saw in 2009.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Nov 30, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Come on
Buckner was pretty good. I know, look at the ERA, but his FIP was 4.70, even including the bullpen stint at the beginning of the year. His xFIP was 4.05!
In 73.1 IP he was worth 1 WAR. I’m pretty confident we can count on him to give us 150 IP of non-embarrassing starts for a 5th starter, like an ERA under 5, possibly.
About the contingency plan for a fourth starter, I don’t know. I’m not sure how many teams on our budget can go ahead and pay for quality 6th, 7th and 8th starter. In that case, you give a shot to your best minor leaguers and hope for the best. And I’m sure the triple headed beast would have looked a lot better if it was replacing a 4th starter for 100 IP and not Webb for 250.
by paqs on Dec 1, 2009 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A few thoughts
- Bucker was only given the chance as our 8th starter, after our 6th and 7th guys, Petit and Augenstein, had been tried and found wanting.
- He was so “good” initially, he was sent down to Triple-A at the end of June and replaced by Kevin Mulvey.
- Buckner was a great deal better when he returned, posting a 3.93 ERA – that was almost half his innings and, I suspect responsible for the great bulk of the 0.8 WAR. His FIP in May and June was 4.64 and 5.48, not very impressive. And I think if we’re relying on backup starters developing new pitches to be effective, it’s…worrisome.
- I hope/think he’ll be fine as a fifth starter – but he’s already in the rotation, so won’t be available as a backup. Petit’s gone too: so if we sign Sheets and he goes down, who have we got? Mulyey? Augenstein?
- Even in 2008, with the only major injury Davis’s cancer, we still needed 21 starts from pitchers outside the top five [Webb, Haren, Davis, Johnson and Owings] Having a half-decent 6th starter is a big help. Maybe this is where Hernandez might work?
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Dec 1, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
thats why we traded for heilman, could he possibly be the security 6th while also providing a decent bullpen arm?
oh we should sign Justin Duchscherer, he was above average for oakland before he got hurt.
by blank_38 on Dec 1, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Better than above average!
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 1, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A few of my own
1. Augenstein didn’t really get a fair shake, he was sent down after two starts, and he wasn’t that bad in the first.
2. Why is it people like to split everything into months etc? He was the same pitcher in May, June, September etc. Take the whole thing and roll with it.
3. The 4.64 FIP is very good for a fifth starter. Heck, even 5.48 is better than replacement level.
4. I don’t know, we could try Ambriz, Valdez or whoever and hope for the best .. or
5. Yeah, Livo is actually a decent fifth starter, whatever people may think of him.
by paqs on Dec 2, 2009 2:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was the same pitcher in May, June, September etc.
Except he wasn’t. Buckner spent the two months down in Triple-A working on adding a cut fastball to his repertoire, and the results were palpably better on his return. Now, while all credit is due to him for that, it’s not something on which we should be relying. And while FIP is nice, in his seven starts in May/June – even discounting his bullpen work – opponents hit Buckner at a .329 clip.,
While a chunk of that is probably caused by his high BABIP , he also had a 23% line-drive percentage [league average is 19%]: so looks like he was getting hit hard. You can get away with allowing hard hits or many hits, but when you do both…
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Dec 2, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But shouldn’t he get credit for having a better second half than a first half? With so little data, shouldn’t our expectations be tilted toward the second half rather than the first?
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 2, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK
I guess that’s a special case. And that’s even more of a reason to be optimistic about his future.
by paqs on Dec 2, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To both of you
Yes, I am quite hopeful Buckner will be a solid enough element of the pitching staff. But the problem is that he’s no longer a sixth starter, he is part of our rotation, which is now presumably Webb, Haren, Scherzer, TBA, Buckner. What happens if one of those guys goes down?
If we’re going to look at picking up an injury risk like Sheets, we really need a better contingency plan in place than the one we had when Webb got injured last year.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Dec 2, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said
I’d take 100 IP of Sheets and 100 IP of Augenstein/Mulvey/Whoever over 200 of Garland.
Also, if Harden can be had for about $10M, he’s an even better option.
When it comes to the contingency plan, it all comes down to whether the FO and management have faith that one or more of our prospects can give us 100 innings and not embarrass themselves. Again, I don’t think we can say that Mulvey and Augenstein aren’t up to it based on 10-20 IP last season.
If not, I guess you could pick up a veteran like Livo or Ponson or Odalis Perez to give you an ERA around 5.
by paqs on Dec 3, 2009 3:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with paqs, although without numbers associated with the players, we’re all admittedly shooting in the dark. If our team (like the Dodgers) just needed to maintain or slightly improve to see the promised land of the playoffs, I understand the low risk low reward options of Garland/Wolf/etc.
But now that we’ve moved past DD I see no reason to return there… and we need more than just an incremental jump to see the playoffs. Why not aim big with Sheets or Harden (assuming semi-reasonable price tags)? In the worst case scenario Webb and Sheets/Harden will both fail and we’ll be left with another 70 something win club. In the best case scenario we could have the best rotation in all of baseball with a ridiculous 1-2-3 punch that may well be able to win us a WS ring.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 3, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Similar debat as last year...
..between the Johnson and Garland signings.
The way I saw it, Johnson was the guy I wanted in the post-season. Garland was the guy I wanted in the regular season. With Webb and Haren at the top I ended up falling on the side of Garland. We’ve got the guns to go far in the playoffs, it’s getting there that will be the issue. Three potential aces seems a bit too rich for a club of our payroll.
That said, there should be a handful of guys that fall between the Sheets’ and the Garlands’s’s’s. All we’re talking about is a #4 starter.
by Counsellmember on Dec 3, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
apples and oranges.
RJ was paid significantly more than Garland (I don’t think he earned the full $13M possible in the contract, but not far off that number).
On the other hand, I don’t see Sheets as getting paid that much more than the Garlands of the world. I may well be wrong, and if Sheets’ contract is way out of whack with the rest, then I wouldn’t touch him either, but if he’s in the same ballpark, I think you’ve got to go upside over stability.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 3, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just a comparison...
of injury risk pitchers vs steady but unspectacular pitchers. That’s how I viewed the choice we had to make last year.
And I agree about Sheets price being comprable to a Garland type. The difference might be that Sheets accepts a 1 year make good contract, while others will try and hold out for multiple years.
by Counsellmember on Dec 3, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 3, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cutting away some more dead wood
would free up more money. How about trading Chris Young? The bigger fool concept of sales could work here. ( The idea is that there is always a bigger fool who will take your “investment” off your hands).
by dbacks watcher on Nov 22, 2009 10:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i dont know about that i wouldnt trade him before spring training.
Because i would hat to see him eat OPP. pitchers alive somewhere else because we decided to give up on him.
by SaveUsY2J on Nov 22, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trading him
Makes no sense right now, as you would be selling at the absolute lowest. You couldn’t get anything of value for him right now, and you’d be setting yourself up for another Quentin scenario.
Yes, I know CY will never be the hitter Q is, but good defensive center fielders who can hit a little bit are valuable.
by paqs on Nov 23, 2009 2:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
CY
could absolutely be the hitter Q is, actually. Considering that Quentin has declined since his peak year right after we dealt him, and is a DL mainstay, CY could have the same offensive value as Quentin someday.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 23, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm probably CY's biggest fan
But he’ll never be Q. Q had a really big comedown last year, with a BABIP of .223 and injury problems and still, his ’09 was better than any season CY ever put together.
CY’s ceiling is about .250/.350/.500, which is amazing for a center fielder, and as such he’d be more valuable than Q who plays the corner. But Q’s bat is in another dimension.
by paqs on Nov 24, 2009 5:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sign me up
If Young put up a .350 OBP it would completely transform our lineup.
I know you said “ceiling”, but with a 3 year average of .234/.307/.441, I would not hold my breath on him reaching what we once thought he might be.
by Counsellmember on Nov 24, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
250/350/500 may be a touch optimistic, but paqs did say it was a ceiling. Perhaps 250/333/475 is more realistic, although still more than adequate for a CF.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Nov 24, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Young has a good eye, and I can see him putting up 100 points of IsoBB. I don’t know if he can bat .250 with all the strikeouts and popups.
Maybe .233/.333/.466 for a nice round OPS of .800 is a realistic target and really nice for a CF.
by paqs on Nov 30, 2009 5:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Those flatted out
And were HR’s at the end of the year. Not saying it’ll definitely continue, but give it a chance.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 6, 2009 4:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can of Worms; Open
I’m definately down for giving CY CF to start off the year. What’s fair? Two, three months? Lets hope he can give enough production to stick.
But…let me throw this out; Upton in CF. I know we’ve got Parra waiting and able as well, and that largely depends on Jackson. But could Justin make the switch to CF? His range is adequate, and it’s not like the move from SS to RF. In many ways, I feel that for a young guy like him, CF may actually be easier to play.
There are lots of pros and cons here, I just wondered if anyone else had had this thought and wanted to support or condemn it. :)
by Counsellmember on Dec 6, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm down
It’s just a matter of who we get to play right.
by paqs on Dec 7, 2009 5:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take him!
Nice trade idea. Of course, if he headbutts an umpire, we can’t act surprised :)
by paqs on Dec 7, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I seem to recall
This being floated on the MLB Network Hot Stove Show. I would have some qualms about this, simply because Upton probably doesn’t need another position change: he was originally drafted as a shortstop, remember, and only started playing the outfield in 2006.
That said, in 2007, he did play almost the entire season in the minors in CF, and looks like he only got shifted to right, because we believed after that year that Chris Young was the real thing in center…
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Dec 7, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ewwwwwww
Last thing I want to do is keep shifting around a superstar. I want him planted in right. Just an opinion.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 8, 2009 1:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There’s no real reason to do this with Parra as the 4th OF, since he can play CF well enough (hopefully he’ll continue to improve). If CY doesn’t work out, then we can plug in Parra in CF. If Parra weren’t our 4th OF, I would understand moving J-Up over, but with Parra’s flexibility, I don’t understand the move.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 8, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To free up RF
I like Parra. He’s a great 4th OF. But sometimes there is a guy burning a hole in the market, and could be traded for a guy burning a hole on your bench and in your pocket book that would be a great fit.
Like Jim mentioned and I alluded to, Upton was a CF in the minors; for pratcically as long as he’s been a RF. I suspect, though I dont know, that it’s not a big deal making that switch.
by Counsellmember on Dec 8, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well
Perhaps I should have qualified it with a “relative to position” or some similar nonsense. :P
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 25, 2009 5:09 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
well how about something like this?
making an offer to Cameron, that gives you an outfield of Parra, Cameron, Young, Upton and Jackson. You get a solid bat, solid defence and a real mentor for Upton. You switch out CoJack and Parra and Young as needed in LF and occasionally giving Cameron a night off when needed with Young as his backup.
Pick up Colero to help give you another solid veretan arm who can work long or short.
Take a flier on Capuano or Pinero or both depending upon money. Chris has some history here and if someone is going to give him a shot, why not us? Pinero is a good 3rd or 4th guy and as far as I can remember he eats innings like Davis does.
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused....
by piratedan7 on Nov 22, 2009 11:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Pineiro
sounded like a great idea to me until I saw just how highly he ranks amongst free agent starters. Namely, right after Lackey. My reasoning (contrary to the Yahoo article linked above) is that he’s ahead of Wolf as Wolf is older, more likely to break down, and had a career year into his mid-to-late 30’s he’s not likely to repeat, ahead of Harden because of injuries, ahead of Bedard because of injuries, ahead of Pettite because Pettite’s “free agency” is only a formality, and ahead of Chapman because Chapman probably won’t be in a rotation next season. He just put up a dazzling season with a legit 3.49 ERA. It’s not a flier on Pineiro, it’s a multi-year deal for a lot of money.
Capuano’s career fell apart. Given that we’re already taking a flier on Webb, why risk another one with Capuano?
What happens to Cole Gillespie? Going to banish him to AAA again to have the declining bat of Mike Cameron as a fifth OF for mentor purposes? Hire Tony Clark as a consultant or coach, you get the mentor without using the roster spot.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 23, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good call
On Gillespie. Everything I read about him so far says he’s a major league ready hitter, with plus defense. He should be given every chance to win a roster spot, and even a lineup spot, if Parra and Young are not hitting.
by paqs on Nov 24, 2009 5:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
Were it not for injuries, there’s no way Milwaukee deals him. We get to be the lucky beneficiaries of this.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 25, 2009 5:11 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
well I have to disagree
I really don’t see that much of a change in Cameron’s numbers over the last three years, which means that if he holds steady, he’s gonna hit about .250 and give you 20-25 home runs, 70 RBI and 70 walks. The one thing that is a concern for me is the decline last year in SB’s but you are right, he’s not getting any younger. While I don’t have a problem with Gillespie, is this team just one or two players from contending or rather 4 or 5? That POV may make a difference on where the cash is spent.
Another possibility would be to take a chance on the two Japanese SP that are listed, Igurashi and Takahashi. See about taking a chance on both. They can automatically have someone else to talk to and if there needs to be an interpreter, well two for the price of one. To be honest, seeing the listing provided, I’m not wowed by too many folks on the list and maybe I’m just making a reach thinking that two guys that we know nothing about sound way more positive than the laundry list of broken careers and body parts that is listed on the page with their history of issues and meltdowns.
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused....
by piratedan7 on Nov 30, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we should
Get O-Dawg back, he can still play and he was the heart of our team. Him going down was a big reason we fell apart at the end of the 2008 season. There was no real identity. Rich Harden or Ben Sheets even could be good signings, assuming their markets are down due to injury risk or inconsistency in Harden’s case.
by rapdawg on Nov 22, 2009 11:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Eh
Hudson’s offensive numbers were largely due to his insane output in April and May- he hit .227 in September. And his Golden Glove really just illustrates how stupid the Golden Glove awards are.
"Spam headline: 'YOU ARE CHOSEN!' Oh, Morpheus, you're getting pretty lazy."
"Or they are informing you you are Jewish in a very lame conversion campaign."
"In either case, sending me spam is not the way to invite me to Zion."
by kishi on Nov 22, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So
His September stats are just as important as his April and May stats. Hudson is still what he was when he was with us, an above average bat with average defense at second.
I think we’re set at 2nd base though.
by paqs on Nov 23, 2009 2:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I think my point was that he’s not really an above-average bat with average defense.
"Spam headline: 'YOU ARE CHOSEN!' Oh, Morpheus, you're getting pretty lazy."
"Or they are informing you you are Jewish in a very lame conversion campaign."
"In either case, sending me spam is not the way to invite me to Zion."
by kishi on Nov 23, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my point
Was not to promote his ability. He is better than you make him out to be though. Also, we can get him relatively cheap because he got benched by Joe Torre at the end of the year. My point was that a young team needs guidance and leadership, Hudson was a big part of that when he was here. I don’t know who you prefer at second though, I am skeptical at best of Roberts, I’m not sold on Ryal as a MLB second baseman yet, and if Augie Ojeda comes back we would be throwing in the towel by putting him there everyday.
by rapdawg on Nov 23, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Roberts put up better numbers last season, he’s cheaper, and he’s younger. Given what veteran presence is worth in the clubhouse, I don’t see much reason to bring back Hudson.
"Spam headline: 'YOU ARE CHOSEN!' Oh, Morpheus, you're getting pretty lazy."
"Or they are informing you you are Jewish in a very lame conversion campaign."
"In either case, sending me spam is not the way to invite me to Zion."
by kishi on Nov 23, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Roberts
Is a platoon guy who can’t hit a righty to save his life. He’s toxic to lefties, but could use a buddy (i.e. Abreu).
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 23, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Let’s not take the small sample size that is last season and call a former non-roster invitee our starting second baseman. He will need Abreu to play against righties, but there is a reason Abreu fell out of favor in LA. I am not sold on him yet, let’s make sure he is who we think he is before assuming we are set at second base.
by rapdawg on Nov 23, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Abreu fell out of favor in L.A.
For two reasons. 1) Joe Torre is an idiot who doesn’t play young players. 2) Although related to 1, Torre felt that Abreu was soft because he was “faking” an injury. That injury turned out to be a 2008-season-ending sports hernia.
Abreu’s fine.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 24, 2009 3:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We should get Craig Counsell back and maybe he could help drew.
by SaveUsY2J on Nov 23, 2009 12:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
CC always looks good in a D'Back uni
I’m just not sure why he’s always traded away.
At any rate, Randy Wolf would be my first choice for the big bucks. Now that the ‘Backs have decided that DD isn’t good enough anymore, they have to replace that left handed spot, and RW seems to be the best out there that might be affordable for the budget-conscious front office.
by NASCARbernet on Nov 23, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like wolf but one thing is I dont think he wants to play here.
I think CC would be a good sign im sure we could get him pretty cheap too.
by SaveUsY2J on Nov 23, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wolf is destined to be overvalued.
Jared Washburn, however, is destined to be undervalued. He’s not as bad as he was in Detroit. He’s not as good as he was in Seattle, but nobody is going to pay him off of that now. An AL-to-NL move would help his numbers, and he could definitely be a 4th guy both this year and even next year if we wanted to do an option like Garland. And Craig Counsell is literally useless with a bat these days. Plus he doesn’t want to leave Milwaukee, where he’s from.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 23, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes...
You just have to overpay someone… If we want to get out of the semi-basement of the division, we may have to make a big splash rather than trying to find value in players past their prime (if other teams aren’t trying to sign a player, there’s usually a good reason their not going after them). Byrnes’ style is to hope to find gold by scraping the bottom of the barrel, and it hasn’t worked to well to this point.
by G.O.B. on Nov 23, 2009 5:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Come on
You know we can’t compete financially with the Mets, Dodgers and Cubs. Going into bidding wars with the likes of them will get us nowhere.
by paqs on Nov 23, 2009 8:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose you're right...
But I didn’t mean we should try to sign Holliday, but maybe go for a Jason Bay type player… I suppose this season doesn’t really have a whole lot of second tier free agents, but I’d rather see us go after those players than the players that no one else wants.
by G.O.B. on Nov 23, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude
Bay rejected something like 4 years, $60M from the Sox. There’s no way we have that kind of money.
by paqs on Nov 24, 2009 5:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yup.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Nov 24, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My bad...
I guess between working full time and being a full time student I’ve missed some sports news…
Still, I know we’re not a “big market” team, but at some point (perhaps not this offseason, as it’s a thin FA market…) we need some protection in the line up for Upton and Reynolds…
Of course it would help a lot if Drew and Jackson have bounce-back seasons and Webb returns to form. In that scenario we can get by with more subpar FA signings/rookies on our roster.
by G.O.B. on Nov 24, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
of course he did...
He’s a top-3 guy in this market. Those guys get five or six years, regardless of how much they really deserve…
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 25, 2009 5:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
The new guys 2 cents...
Going the safe route for my lead off post, I’m going to build off of Mr McLennan.
My first thought for a starting pitcher was Randy Wolf. Although we cant and dont want to offer up an arm and a leg to get him, I think we should atleast be agressive to get him. An agressive bid and a nod to the rotation he’d be stepping in to: Webb, Haren and Scherzer. Not bad company.
As for first base, my vote is for Hammerin Hank Blalock with CoJack to randomly supplement.
I havent yet formulated an opinion on a relief pitcher so I’ll skip to my vote of confidence for Ryal @ second. With only 13 games played, 10 started, we dont have too much to judge. I personally liked what I saw and he seems to have a bit more pop in his bat than our other alternatives.
My imagination is greater than your nay-say.
by Jargamus Prime on Nov 23, 2009 9:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Welcome to the 'Pit!
Going the safe route for my lead off post, I’m going to build off of Mr McLennan.
LOL. I’m saying nothing on that. ;-)
The problem with Blalock is, he’s another left-hander (like Allen and Whitesell), and his career line against LHP is not very good: .229/.279/.378, for a .667 OPS. I’d rather see us get someone who can handle lefties better, and can thus be platooned with our youngsters, to give them a chance to develop properly. I think CoJack should stick to the outfield: his defense at 1B was pretty bad, and that was when he was there every day – bouncing around isn’t going to help.
Wolf wouldn’t be a bad choice. but I’ve a feeling the competition will be too much. I think he over-performed last year (an ERA+ of 122, compared to a career number of 103), and he’ll turn 34 next August. I suspect we aren’t getting a late-bloomer, and as paqs noted, is likely in line for a regression. If we can get him for $6-7m, I’d be all over that, but tend to feel the bidding will be significantly higher.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Nov 23, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I should have been more specific in my CoJack statement. I definately would rather see him starting everyday in left and not jump back and forth, but it would be an option.
Nick Johnson, I think, had the best splits verses Lefties. Because of that, he may be a sought after commodity that the Dbacks cant/wont fight for. Branyan would be the same situation. He’s coming off a decent year and would be looking for some change, change the Dbacks dont have much of. Blalock just seems like he might be the easiest to obtain. He’d have to take less, but there’s an upside to joining the Dbacks… as opposed to Pittsburgh
My imagination is greater than your nay-say.
by Jargamus Prime on Nov 23, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here are my thoughts
Although I’ve already put them as responses to about three comments above… Oh well.
1) Sign Jared Washburn. 2 years, perhaps around $10-16M (going to be cheaper than Garland, but I’m fairly poor at assessing these markets). With how poorly he pitched in Detroit, his value plummeted from earning multi-years and many more millions than what this is, but given how much he tanked, somewhere around here is going to be sufficient. Heck, the Yahoo article linked above has him behind Lackey, Chapman, Wolf, Harden, Bedard, Pettite, and Pineiro. On Keith Law’s list on ESPN.com, he’s behind Lackey, Pineiro, Chapman, Pettite, Wolf, Noel Arguelles (Cuban defector), Sheets, Harden, Penny, Garland, Bedard, Marquis, Pedro, Pavano, Davis, and Duchscherer (although I’d say this might be more than a bit low for him). Essentially, this tells you that people just aren’t high on him. Since he can be a #4 NL guy, that makes him a value grab for us. My second choice for this slot would be Penny. He can pitch the NL West, and that’s great value out of a 4th man, right? Either one of these guys would be nice to see.
2) If you can trade Snyder for a 1B, 2B, 5th starter, or reliever, do it. If not, don’t get anyone. We just traded major-league pieces in Tony Pena, Flip Lopez, Jon Rauch, and Jon Garland for four prospects with nothing left to prove in the minors. So, unless an upgrade comes walking in the door with a giant “Free with the exchange of one expendable starting catcher” pricetag, why not let them all try their hand at the majors? Not all of them may pan out, but the idea of making these deals is that they kids will get an opportunity to show what they can do. We have Allen to try 1B, Abreu to try 2B, Gillespie as an OF option, and Mulvey to try for the 5th rotation spot, and if he gets beaten out by Buckner, which probably will happen, put Mulvey in the ‘pen. If Mulvey beats out Buckner, we already know Billy can throw effectively in relief. Don’t force stop-gap upgrades when we have young guys to give ABs and innings to.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 23, 2009 11:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Very Sensible
Washburn is worth taking a chance on, if the price is right (and it should be). Giving the younger players a shot makes good sense, if your willing to accept that 2010 will be a ‘building’ year instead of a ‘championship’ run. If (there’s that word, again) Jackson, Webb, and possibly Young return to form, it wouldn’t be a stretch to compete in the west.
I also agree with you about Snyder. A second ML quality catcher is a good thing to have, so unless it’s a really good trade offer, we’re better off keeping him. Much as I like Montero, I have some concerns about how he’ll hold up over a full season.
BTW: the yahoo list that I linked to doesn’t reflect my opinion so much as it was a convenient list; a starting point for discussion. I’m sure there are 10 brazillion different opinions on the comparative values of different players.
Key to the game: Score More
by pygalgia on Nov 23, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fly-Ball Pitcher
The problem with Washburn is that he is an extreme fly-ball pitcher (43% last year), so he’s best suited to spacious parks with a great defensive OF like Seattle. Washburn has stated that he’s looking to go back to Seattle, or to the Twins or Brewers, so he can stay close to his Wisconsin home.
by Amit on Nov 23, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hadn't heard those statements.
But they make sense. Jon Garland, despite his reputation for being a ground-ball pitcher, actually is a fly-ball lover himself (well, actually around league-average, but given the amount of contact he draws, it’s a fair point), so it’s not like they can’t hold their own at Chase. Given the probable pricetag, it wouldn’t be a bad investment, even though not the best fit.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 23, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we can get Washburn
For about $6-7M per year, it would be great. $10 per year is too much.
And Garland also struggled at Chase.
by paqs on Nov 24, 2009 5:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
And that doesn’t appear to be a huge stretch to get him for that money. And that’s a bit of my point – Garland was still effective for us right? It might not be the best fit, but Washburn could be effective for AZ.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 24, 2009 11:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Wait it out
I think Washburn is likely to get more than 6-7M this year. But if he did take that kind of money, surely it would be from one of the teams that he prefers to go to. The Brewers are looking for all the SP they can get, and would not pass him up at that price.
However, there should be several SPs that slip through the cracks this year, as Garland did last year. It doesn’t look like there is any kind of consensus on who we would like to land, so why not just let the off-season play out and pick up one of the guys getting desperate?
There are something like 15 SP out there I wouldnt mind having in a favorable contract, some of them will still be there in February.
by Counsellmember on Nov 24, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if we can't get a good deal
You (and njjohn below) are absolutely right. See if a guy like Penny, who I’ve heard nothing about, might fall through.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 25, 2009 5:18 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
The good news for us is that although there aren’t really a lot of hot names on the market (Lackey, meh)… there are a ton of Garland-Wolf-Davis-esque 3/4 starters out there. I say we wait the market out and take whoever we can get the best contract out of. It’s a numbers game — there are more of these guys out there than teams that are hot for a 3/4 starter.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Nov 24, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not only did he struggle...
at Chase, but Garlad struggled and whined about his struggles at Chase. How quickly they forget.
by azshadowwalker on Dec 2, 2009 6:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again...
He still provided an ERA above league-average. Washburn could do the same.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 6, 2009 4:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My 2 cents
I agree with IHSB with Washburn being a good signee. But depending on the market and he doesn’t get overpriced I’d like to have Bedard. He’s still fairly young and has a great arm. And also if we could get Wolf as much as I dislike him and his fluke year he has pitched a full year in the NL west. I highly doubt we could trade Snydepiece as well, I’d assume if a trade was to be done, it’d come from the farm and maybe with a stipulation that they take Byrnes. Just my thoughts.
by dbacksbj on Nov 23, 2009 3:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think for Starting Pitching
This entire scenario with starting pitchers is going to boil down to this – are we willing to take on an injury risk to add more upside per dollar, or do we feel that we have enough injury risk with Webb and take a secure, injury-free option, despite having to maybe pay a little extra for the performance. If the former, our options are Sheets, Penny, Bedard, & Pedro. With any of these guys except Pedro, we get the upside of a #2 starter performance, and Pedro has #3 upside, but all of them have the downside of nothing and having to plug in a Mulvey or Augenstein into the rotation to fill in in the case of a blowout. If the latter, our options are Wolf (although I’m tempted to throw him in an in-between category because blowout is expected from Wolf at some point), Pineiro (if we’re willing to really splurge), Washburn, and Garland. We’ll know what we get from them, but it might cost a little more.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 23, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cross One Off The List
Omar Vizquel signed with the White Sox. Oh, wait…nobody even mentioned Vizquel.
Seriously, thanks for all the discussion. I had hoped to start a conversation with this, and it seems to have worked.
So, would Coco Crisp be worth picking up? I kinda like the fit.
Key to the game: Score More
by pygalgia on Nov 23, 2009 8:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
My thought on Crisp
Is that yeah, he’s a decent fit, but he’s essentially the same player as Cole Gillespie could be right? A fourth/fifth OF? So why not take the risk that Gillespie is that guy and save the money? It’s risky, but not too risky because it is, after all, a backup spot.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 24, 2009 3:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My List
Chone Figgins-2B/SS (if you move Drew to 2B)-a prototypical lead off man would help moving to Jackson and Reynolds
Bedard-SP anywhere from a 3rd to a 4th Starter
Duscherer-SP-if he can be gotten as cheap as some people tend to say, this may be a better move than Bedard
Capuano-SP if all else fails.
Tatis-1B-he can be platooned with Whitesell/Allen
by Reynolds rapper on Nov 24, 2009 10:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Figgins
Would move to second before Drew. But Tatis is an interesting name, given how decently he produced last year in spacious Citi Field.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 24, 2009 10:57 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm, Tatis
Tatis certainly is an interesting name I haven’t heard mentioned before. Fits the “veteran bat” the FO says they want. Numbers look pretty good, probably average defense at 1st. Added versatility is great as well. And I can’t imagine he would cost much. I like it!
Capuano’s off the list now. Duscherer or Bedard would be two pretty excellent #4s for sure, but I think we won’t be willing to pay as much as other teams will.
Figgins would be amazing, but just doesn’t fit with the team’s needs or budget right now, I think.
by Counsellmember on Nov 24, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bedard
is coming off of 2 injury years (81 IP and 83 IP), so he won’t get near his last contract. It would be good if he could land at about $8 mil.
I don’t know if Duscherer or Bedard are going to command $10-12 mil in a bad economy. The only issue I could see is that Bedard is tailor made for an incentive based contract.
As far as Figgins, I think he is a better fit than most people would give him credit for. CY can’t bat leadoff and I really don’t like Drew batting leadoff. They need someone to get on base for Jackson and Reynolds.
The question is could this be made to work as a total picture or would they have to make some choices with these offers out. However, even if they have to make some business choices between these guys listed, they could get the ball rolling and get some offers in.
by Reynolds rapper on Nov 24, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Figgins
Figgins would be a great fit on any team, as a player. But the contract is just not the kind AZ can afford to give out, especially for a guy that doesn’t even fot a positional hole.
If you could give a 5 year contract to someone this off-season, would you rather it be Free Agent Figgins, or 2 years from arbitration Upton? One costs three times more than the other, and gets you the lesser player, both next year and beyond.
by Counsellmember on Nov 24, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be more comfortable
With Duch in the ’pen than the rotation.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 25, 2009 5:20 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO
I think chone figgins has one of the funniest names. I know it’s pronounced Shawn but c’mon….you know you wanna call him Chone…like Chonies.
I laugh until my head comes off.
by edbigghead on Nov 24, 2009 12:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'd target
Nick Johnson and Jon Garland.
Overtures for Lyle Overbay confirm that Allen’s not ready, and the problem with slotting Jackson at first (besides the fact he doesnt like it), is it reduces the OF to a star and two question marks (CY, Parra, etc) again. I dont think that’s a wise bet. I’d much rather establish Conor and Justin at the corners, with Parra as the fourth OF, “pushing” Young.
Jackson LF
Reynolds 3B
Johnson 1B
Upton RF
Montero C
Young CF
Drew SS
Pitcher
Abreu/Roberts 2B
For a variety of reasons, I expect Webb to pitch and pitch well. With him, Haren and Scherzer we dont require a big name, injury-prone strikeout artist, just a #4 who is guaranteed to show up and win roughly half the time. If last year is any judge, Garland will do that and then some. He’s smart and adaptable – in short, a winner.
Whether Garland wants to play at Chase, or for Hinch, is another matter, but regardless, I’d be valuing durability over high end potential at the four spot.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Nov 24, 2009 6:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Makes sense
I presume, by your reference to Parra as the fourth outfielder , that Eric Byrnes is a write-off in your mind? If we can get Garland for around $7m, that would be fine – and it’d be very amusing to do that to the Dodgers, especially if Abreu turns out to be the second-baseman of the future.
What I like about Johnson is, while he’s a lefty, he doesn’t have the typical LHB 1B splits – in his career, he actually has a BETTER line vs. LHP, hitting them at a .292 clip. We could still allow Allen to get his licks in as appropriate. Like the LaRussa style line-up, with the pitcher in the eighth spot, but I’d be more inclined to go Johnson-Upton-Reynolds in the middle. I am wondering if Jackson’s speed surge in the DWL was because he was told he’ll be hitting leadoff for us? We can but hope…
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Nov 24, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who else would it be?
If CY can regain his form, perhaps him, but that’s an uncertainty, even compared to Jackson. Drew stumbled there last season. Montero’s more fit for a 2nd slot given his slowness and propensity for . Upton’s third, Reynolds is fourth. Perhaps CY then fifth (although CY and Miggy could be flopped, theoretically), Drew sixth, and I’d like to see Allen seventh and Abreu eighth personally.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 25, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
drew
Hit his best last year out of the leadoff spot. I don’t have numbers to back that right now, but from watching him play he looked most comfortable there and probably had his best numbers out of that spot. I vote for him to lead off and hit Jackson 2. Montero is 5, Young 6, then the rest the same.
by rapdawg on Nov 25, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ask, and ye shall receive
Drew = .301/.352/.541 hitting leadoff, and I’d happily settle for that, obviously! A bit hard to say beyon him for sure, as outside of the now-departed Lopez, no-one else had even 75 PAs there.
Bit hard to say much about the line-up until the roster shakes itself down and we know who’ll be the everyday player at first and second. Handedness, etc. will play into the construction.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Nov 26, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just got pwned.
Interesting.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 26, 2009 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Alright
How many of you seriously believe players magically perform better or worse depending on the slot in the lineup?
by paqs on Nov 30, 2009 5:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think batting leadoff is a special case
I reckon the difference between hitting there and anywhere else in the order is greater than for any other spot. Logically, of course, it only makes any real difference in the first inning – but there is a psychological aspect to it too (you are “expected” to get on base, you are “expected” to steal), and some players seem better suited to it.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Nov 30, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Once a game
You’re expected to take a few more pitches than you normally do. Which is good for a guy like Drew who is normally quite happy to swing away at a low pitch and ground out to the 2B or fly out to short center on a high pitch.
As for the psychological thing, I’m not really a big believer in that. You want to get on base and maybe steal regardless of your spot in the order.
by paqs on Dec 1, 2009 8:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1+ per game
Remember, with the pitcher batting in front of you, the leadoff gets to start the next inning a pretty significant number of times.
Not really important, but I thought I’d mention it.
I LOVE leadoff hitters, but sometimes it’s a bit of a luxury to have the prototypical type on your team. Patience and OBP are the most important factors for me.
by Counsellmember on Dec 1, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You want to get on base and maybe steal regardless of your spot in the order.
Much less true for the #8 in the NL than the #1. Last season, there were only 72 SB in the 8th spot – less even than from the #9. There were 491 from the lead-off spot. Of course, there is a question of cause and effect here, but we’re talking almost a 7x factor here. #8 also had the lowest OBP of any non-pitcher’s spot.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Dec 1, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
But I guess that has more to do with:
a) those are mostly catchers – they’re slow
b) you’re not going to steal in front of a pitcher. He’ll either bunt you over, and if there are two outs, you want to at least clear the pitcher for the next innings and not get caught stealing.
by paqs on Dec 2, 2009 2:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
definitely makes a difference
It is a psychological thing, not much more than that. Baseball is a very mental game; it can affect a player’s confidence too. That is why a few years ago when Torre batted A-Rod 7th in the playoffs people said that was the worst thing he could do for a player struggling with confidence at the plate. Taking a guy out of his comfort zone and moving him makes it even harder to get confidence back in his swing.
by rapdawg on Nov 30, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When does the discussion of...
“clutch” hitting begin? Isn’t it psychological to have guys on base and know you’re the one who needs to drive them in, or to know that it’s late in the game and your team really needs you to do something? The idea of being “clutch” is treated like it’s so laughable that it’s not worth discussion, but the “psychological” aspect of being leadoff is valid?
by azshadowwalker on Dec 2, 2009 6:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think counting on EB at this point is wishful thinking. Even in 2007, the third year (2010) of his extension is what concerned me, and that was assuming he’d perform far better than he actually did in 2008-2009. He’ll be 34 in February.
I figured casually sneaking Reynolds into the #2 lineup spot would raise eyebrows, but I’ve actually meditated deeply on this, and plan to picket 400 Jefferson St if powers resist. A passionate, counterintuitive proposal, for another thread.
Garland and Johnson have drawbacks, of course. But based on my assumptions, I think they give our particular team what they need most. Garland gives a bench seat to (much) weaker, less durable alternatives, and Johnson boosts low team OBP, not just with his bat, but by positionally sliding Conor to left.
I think some of you have too high an opinion of Allen, at least in terms of 2010. I dont know what he’ll hit, but with questions nagging at 2b and CF, this team cant afford to have a first baseman who hits .230 and whiffs alot. There’s just no excuse for it, like there might be at other positions where struggling hitters are at least providing more defensive/baserunning value.
If the FO is the focus of anything, something is seriously wrong with the picture ! - unnamedDBacksfan 2/20/09
by Diamondhacks on Nov 26, 2009 1:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. Johnson certainly is a better option than Branyan. I wonder if we could pick off a right handed 1B from another team in a trade. Jorge Cantu? Paul Konerko (huge $12M 2010 salary would have to be swallowed by CWS)?
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Nov 25, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rich Harden
A team can never have enough good arms. Harden at #3 would be an excellent addition. I’m actually optimistic about the everyday lineup for next season. Of course, they have to play to their professional potential.
by NASCARbernet on Nov 25, 2009 12:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
What about Pedro Martinez?
hes pretty solid and hes probably cheap.
by SaveUsY2J on Nov 25, 2009 2:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
sounds good in theory
But after a title run with Philly that came up just short, he’ll want to go to a known contender, which we aren’t.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Nov 25, 2009 5:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
An interesting name
Eric Hinske.
1) He can hit. OPS+ of 107 and 109 the last two years, above average wOBA etc. Of the projections already out, Bill James has his OPS at .777, CHONE is at .770 and ZIPS at .748. League average OPS last year was .740 in the NL, -764 in the AL.
2) He can play first or corner outfield with average results.
3) He’s cheap. He signed with the Pirates for $1.5M last year, could probably be had for that much again.
Let’s do a quick WAR calculation. He’s a +6 hitter according to CHONE. UZR has him at slightly above average, BtB has a defensive projection that rates him as slightly below average, so let’s split the difference and say average defense. If we split his time at first and corner outfield, the positional adjustment is -10 runs over an entire season. Let’s say he gets 400 PA total, as a platoon partner for CJ at first and corner outfield utility guy. That would prorate the hitting to around +4 and the positional adjustment to around -6. Replacement level is around 20 runs below average per full season, or 13.3 for 400 PA. Adding it all up, we get 1.13 WAR, or somewhere between 1 and 1.2 WAR if you want to fool around with the projection. Since the cost of a free agent win is around $4.4M (per The Book), you can see how this is potentially a good move for us.
I know this kind of blocks Allen and Gillespie/Parra, but it’s only for one year, and Allen’s not ready. Just to illustrate, here are the CHONE projections for our 1B/COF guys (runs above average per 150 games):
Whitesell -3
Allen -11
Gillespie -6
Parra -13
I’m not sure if these are park adjusted or not, but they look sad.
4) He’s a veteran.
5) He’s a winner. He played in three WS in a row. I’m no expert in causality, but I think that puts us in the playoffs :)
Yeah, it’s a minor move, but it gives the team some depth and veteran leadership, kind of like a Tony Clark who can hit. We can’t give Brandon Allen and Gerardo Parra 400-600 PA next year and hope to make the playoffs, and I really think with a healthy Webb and Jackson, and some luck, we’re a contender.
by paqs on Nov 30, 2009 8:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
And if we're looking to pay more money for a bat
There’s really only one choice and it’s Nick Johnson.
Holliday and Bay are too expensive, and so is Branyan, coming off that season.
Matsui, Vlad, Thome and Dye can’t play the field, and Damon is borderline.
CHONE projects Johnson as a +18 hitter, BtB has him at -1 UZR. The positional adjustment is -12.5 and the replacement level for 600 PA is +20. Put it all together and you get something close to 2.5 WAR. Of course, you can never expect him to get to 600 PA, but if you prorate to 400 PA, he’d be worth about 1.8 WAR or close to $8M.
I have no idea how much money he wants, but since he only hit 8 HR last year (most of his value is in OBP) it can’t be much more than his $5.5M salary from last year. If we can get him on a two year deal similar to the one we gave Garland, I’d be very happy. Around $6M in the first year, and $8-9M in the second year, with an option. The kicker would be, if he didn’t get 400 PA, we pay nothing in the second year, and if he got 600 PA, the option would automatically kick in.
by paqs on Nov 30, 2009 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
Let me play devil’s advocate here for a bit:
- MLB average OPS last year at 1B was .846. That makes even the most optimistic projection for Hinske (.777) rather less impressive and certainly not “average results”.
- While James’s projections are likely high, comparing apples to apples, the Hinske numbers is 50 points below the James projection for Allen.
- He’s another LHB who can’t hit lefties – career line is .221/.296/.370 for a .666 OPS. We are already well-stocked with those, both at 1B or in the outfield.
There’d be worse signings out there, certainly, but I’d see Hinske more as a fallback choice than a first option.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Nov 30, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Alright
1. I didn’t say he hits better than the average 1B or COF. If he did, he’d be a rich man and we’d be in no position to offer him $1.5 a year. The WAR calculation takes the positional adjustment into account.
2. The James projection takes into account Allen’s minor league numbers, which is, well, you figure it out. CHONE has the difference between the two at 17 runs, which is an incredible difference. You can’t tell me, after watching Allen this year and in the AFL, you seriously expect him to OPS .823, an improvement of 150 points? We’ll see what the other projections say, but I’d say there would be a significant difference between the two in favour of Hinske.
3. As a platoon partner for CJ at first and a fourth OF, he can have the luxury to avoid lefties altogether. I’m assuming he crushes them?
All in all, you’re right, it’s not a first option kind of move, but a low cost, potentially rewarding move. And you’re completely ignoring his World Series mojo :D
by paqs on Dec 1, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Johnson an unlikely target
Per Steve Gilbert:
With the D-backs looking for a veteran first baseman, there are some that have speculated free agent Nick Johnson would be a good choice [what, does he mean us? :-)]. While that may be the case, it seems unlikely given that there has been significant interest in him.
Foxsports.com reported recently that the Mariners, Giants, Mets and Yankees all had interest in Johnson, who will be looking for a multi-year deal. With a little more than $10 million to spend and a more pressing need in the starting rotation, don’t look for the D-backs to be in the bidding for Johnson.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Nov 30, 2009 11:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
I wouldn’t want to be the team signing that guy to a multi year, big money deal.
by paqs on Dec 1, 2009 9:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 6, 2009 4:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
bad news
on the free agent front. Placido Polanco just signed with the Phillies (3 years, $18M — pretty high for a 34 year old 760 career OPS 3B methinks (at 2B, that’s a better deal).
Sigh. I suppose this means we’re going to be stuck with Special K at third for another season???
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 3, 2009 4:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
We’re going to be stuck with the guy who was challenging for the home run title for much of the season and has seen some pretty noticeable improvements to his defense. The guy who stepped up to call out the team when they really needed it, and was one of the few bright spots of the season. And he’s going to cost us less than half a million dollars for it, too.
That’s totally gonna suck.
"Spam headline: 'YOU ARE CHOSEN!' Oh, Morpheus, you're getting pretty lazy."
"Or they are informing you you are Jewish in a very lame conversion campaign."
"In either case, sending me spam is not the way to invite me to Zion."
by kishi on Dec 3, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s terrible. 26 years old. 892 OPS. 24 SBs. This guy is horrible.
Maybe Pedro Feliz is available. Or Craig Counsell. We need somebody.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 4, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
I wonder if Orlando Hudson would move to third.
"Spam headline: 'YOU ARE CHOSEN!' Oh, Morpheus, you're getting pretty lazy."
"Or they are informing you you are Jewish in a very lame conversion campaign."
"In either case, sending me spam is not the way to invite me to Zion."
by kishi on Dec 4, 2009 1:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hear Sammy Sosa is still available.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 4, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
did you miss last season?
Reynolds is a legit power hitter and is going to keep getting better with discipline and making contact. Also, don’t hate on Reynolds’ defense. He was moved to third after playing short in college and had to learn the position on the fly after being called up from Double-A. He is getting way better and is clearly working hard to be the best defender he can. I would love to be “stuck” with him for a long time if he keeps improving like he is.
by rapdawg on Dec 3, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Improvement?
What are you looking at??? HR from 28 to 44. OPS from 778 to 892. SBs from 11 to 24. You must be on crack. This guy is done.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 4, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I swear
if I see him strikeout one more time, I’m done watching this team!
by paqs on Dec 4, 2009 3:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There’s really only one stat you should look at when you’re judging a player: K/AB. Get rid of the bum!
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 4, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Penny
Got $7.5M + $1.5 in incentives.
People on here tried to convince me no one will pay $10M for Washburn. Well, Penny had a much worse season and he almost got that.
by paqs on Dec 8, 2009 6:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Too much
I was interested in Penny, but that seems like too much of a base salary.
Recent signings feel to me as either way too much or way too little. It’s been a difficult off-season to predict thus far.
by Counsellmember on Dec 8, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Money Matters
Between Penny getting 7.5 mil, and Pudge getting 2 years at 3 mil per, I’m even more confused about free agent values this year. Both contracts are higher than I would have expected, and would appear to raise the price of the better players out of the D’Backs range. Looks like the recession hasn’t hit baseball salaries too hard, and that bargains are going to be scarce to non-existent.
Key to the game: Score More
by pygalgia on Dec 8, 2009 1:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Penny getting 7.5M is completely bizarre to me. What in the world? I know Duncan can work magic, but I don’t see any scenario the Cardinals feel good about that acquisition… especially when my suspicion is that things settle down and some of the same caliber guys go for a few million less.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 8, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or a few million more
Im not crazy about Wolf either, but I think he’s got a much better chance be a #3 starter than Penny does. And he’s getting barely over 10M, while Penny gets 9 if he pitches 205 INN.
There is a large gap between those players for a million or two.
by Counsellmember on Dec 8, 2009 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t consider Penny and Wolf comparable.
I’d consider the tiers roughly as follows:
Tier 1
Lackey
Tier 2
Erik Bedard
Rich Harden
Tier 3
Randy Wolf
Doug Davis
Jon Garland
Jarrod Washburn
Joel Pineiro
Tier 4
Kevin Millwood
Jason Marquis
Tier 5
Carl Pavano
Vicente Padilla
Jose Contreras
Brad Penny
In other words, I don’t think Wolf and Penny are comprable. Penny is at the bottom of the FA barrell and Wolf is somewhere near the top. The real comparables will be Pavano, Padilla and Contreras.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 8, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Joel Pineiro
Belongs in Tier 2.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 8, 2009 10:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand Tier 2 at all
I mean, Erik Bedard?
"Spam headline: 'YOU ARE CHOSEN!' Oh, Morpheus, you're getting pretty lazy."
"Or they are informing you you are Jewish in a very lame conversion campaign."
"In either case, sending me spam is not the way to invite me to Zion."
by kishi on Dec 9, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When Bedard is healthy
He’s a legit ace/#2 guy in the AL. I can kinda see that. Sheets, were he included, would belong there too. But I could see Harden going down as he had a fairly blah year.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 9, 2009 8:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
But Bedard hasn’t been healthy for the past two years. I’d drop him at least a tier until he proves he’s a little more durable. Honestly, I’d probably rather have Doug Davis, if I had to choose between them.
Looking at Harden, I was surprised at how short his outings seem to be. Guy looks like he averages less than 6 innings a start every season.
"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."
by kishi on Dec 9, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bedard in tier 2
It’s probably worth taking into account that Bedard and Sheets and Harden will be looking for a one year, make good deal. DD will surely be looking for a multi-year.
by Counsellmember on Dec 9, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the second and third tier deserve to be collapsed. I pushed Harden and Bedard up there because of their ace potential (and it would make sense Sheets would go with them). But, given their downside (injury prone/short starts/etc), I think it’s better to collapse the two tiers.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 9, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said, it’s a rough take on the tiers designed more to show the gap between Penny and Wolf than anything else. I’m fine if Pineiro gets bumped up and Bedard gets bumped down…
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 9, 2009 5:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I wasnt clear
I was trying to agree with your post about Penny’s contrsct being bizarre. Penny and Wolf are going to be paid similarly it seems, about 9-10M. Too much for either in my estimation, but especially Penny.
by Counsellmember on Dec 9, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That sounds fair to me. IHSB mentioned a meaningful ommision from my list in Sheets, and I also forgot Pettitte (probably forgot because he was likely from the start to restart with the Yanks). I’d probably put Pettite on that third tier (although, I think it would be fair to collapse the third and second tier into one tier). Speaking of Pettite, it looks like his deal is almost wrapped up. 1 year, $12M. Unreal. Just an outlandish contract given his age and output.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 9, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Never underestimate
the power of the Force. Er, I mean the ability to pitch in NY. Big Unit couldn’t do it, and I’d probably overpay a bit for guys that have proven they can if I was the Yankees.
by Counsellmember on Dec 9, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“A bit” — What do you think a 38 year old hurler with a 4.38 xFIP, 103 ERA+ in 2009 worth? $6M per? $7M per? There’s no rationale for a double (or near double) bump in worth based on his ‘ability to pitch in NYC.’ It’s just typical Yankee Pettitte worship.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 9, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dont disagree
But for a team that considers a non-chapionship season a failure, you have to pay extra for the guys that are proven to perform. Petitte was, afterall, part of a three man rotation that took them through the playoffs.
It is crazy, though, how 4M dollars to the Yanks is nothing; something to dole out as a kind of Xmas bonus. Whereas to the Dbacks such an amount leads to the turnover of the rotation to fill a hole.
by Counsellmember on Dec 9, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yep. we’re totally on the same page.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 9, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How great of a point is this...
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 9, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
12 million?
Remember, like, a month ago, when people were thinking the economy was going to drive down some of the salary offers players were going to get this season?
"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."
by kishi on Dec 9, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No joke, huh? And Wolf and the Brewers are closing in on a 3 year, $30M deal. More reasonable than Pettitte or Penny, but still very surprising. I just don’t understand why you pay that kind of money for a #3 starter.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 9, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way, all of this gives credence to what IHSB and others have been saying about the FO’s position and why they thought the trade was reasonable. If they were sniffing around for a 3/4 starter and running into these prices, a trade likely seemed a better and better option.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 9, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure this is why it was rumored
That we were “pushing” the deal. We dabbled, saw what we were getting into, and ran for cheaper pastures. Now we just have to hope Kennedy works out in the #4 spot.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 9, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
It realy comes down to this. Spot on.
by Counsellmember on Dec 9, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some more info on these pitchers
A revamped the tiering and added some numbers to boot (age, xFIP 2009/xFIP career). Looking at the numbers, it’s a tough gruop to evaluate. A whole lot of injury prone guys in the mix whose values are impacted in varying degrees by their health.
Tier 1
Lackey (30, 3.66/3.83)
Tier 2
Erik Bedard (30,3.72/3.88)
Rich Harden (28, 3.70, 3.75)
Joel Pineiro (31, 3.68/4.19)
Randy Wolf (33, 4.24/4.17)
Andy Pettitte (37, 4.38/3.69)
Ben Sheets (31, NA/3.55)
Jon Garland (30, 4.63/4.61)
Doug Davis (34, 4.68/4.43)
Tier 3
Carl Pavano (34, 3.96, 4.13)
Vicente Padilla (32, 4.41, 4.43)
Jason Marquis(31, 4.41, 4.67)
Jarrod Washburn (35 4.86/4.73)
Tier 4
Jose Contreras (38, 4.34, 4.41)
Brad Penny (31, 4.56, 4.21)
Kevin Millwood (36, 4.78, 4.10)
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 9, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like Harden just signed with the Rangers for $7.5M. I don’t understand at all why anyone would prefer Penny over Harden. $7.5M for Harden in my book is very reasonable.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 10, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because Harden's ERA in the NL this year
Was over 4, and Penny’s was under 3? You just have to decide if Penny’s AL season was fluke-y or not. As far as I’ve heard, Varitek screwed Penny with his pitch selection hardcore. Overdosed Penny’s fastball, and it got spanked.
"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 11, 2009 12:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And
Because the last time Harden didn’t spend at least part of the season on the DL was 2004?
"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."
by kishi on Dec 11, 2009 1:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You get 80 innings from Harden on average per year
And the rest is bonus time. He’ll never give you 200, and there’s always the distinct chance he gives you somewhere in the 0-10 range…
"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 11, 2009 1:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Comparison
Innings pitched
(Penny, Harden)
2009: 173, 141
2008: 94, 128
2007: 208, 25
2006: 189, 46
2005: 175, 128
2004: 131, 189
ERA+
(Penny, Harden)
2009: 94,110
2008: 66, 211
2007: 146, 173
2006: 104, 104
2005: 105, 172
2004: 130, 114
So, yes. The question is whether you want a guy who is going to give you 170 innings (vs. 125) or a guy who is going ti give you a career 133 ERA+ (vs. 104) and who is 3 years younger. In my mind, 104 ERA+ guys might not be a dime a dozen, but there are a lot of options (with less risk than Penny), meanwhile a career 133 ERA+ guy is a rare find indeed. Especially at age 28. Might he go out and hurl 4 games for you and be done for the year? Yep. But he also might win the Cy Young. I’d take that kind of upside every time.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 11, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way — the main reason I tend to use ERA+ over xFIP is one of ease — I just tend to be on baseball reference more than fangraphs. I don’t think hunting down the xFIPs here would change much, if anything, but I’m happy to have those added to the debate.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 11, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on the team
Generally, Im with you; I’ll take the better pitcher even with some risk over the vanilla guy. But the team’s situation has to come in to play as well.
Does the team have a dominant #1 and 2, or is the strength of the rotation in it’s depth? Last year, with Webb and Haren at our top, I was more interested in a workhorse that would better help us GET to the post-season rather than THROUGH it. The Cardinals are in much the same boat with Carpenter and Wainwright; Penny makes some sense for them.
The Rangers, on the other hand, need a guy that will be able to carry their team through the play-offs if they make it. A true #1 that makes the opposing team adjust just for him. Millwood wan’t that guy.
Still, I think Penny made too much. Like you said, there are a lot more guys like him out there than Harden. Harden’s contract seems about right to me; paying for the ceiling.
by Counsellmember on Dec 11, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But I would never
Give Rich Harden two years. NEVER.
"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 12, 2009 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They didn't
did they? I thought it was a 1 year.
by Counsellmember on Dec 12, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I might,
but only if it were heavily incentivized.
Even Satan thinks Scott Boras is evil.
by DbacksSkins on Dec 12, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They didn’t. Second year was mutual option. By the way, some reports have the deal at $6.5, not $7.5M.
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 12, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Woops. In that case,
I’m sure there’s a buyout, which means more money. And most of what I’ve read says $7.5M…
"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 13, 2009 1:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. Probably $6.5M with a $1M club buyout of the 2011 mutual option (and less for the player).
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 13, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It seems more reasonable to ask if Penny’s 2007 was flukey (40 points off his career ERA+) than if his 2009 was flukey (10 points off his career ERA+).
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 11, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
j.j. putz
3 million for 1 year from the chicago white sox.
why didnt we sign him for that much???
by blank_38 on Dec 11, 2009 3:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
brandon lyon
3 years $15M in Houston. Do they make the stupidest FA signings EVERY year or is it just me?
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. " ~Greg, age 8
by njjohn on Dec 11, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's certainly
A possibility. Lyon just had a good year though.
"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 12, 2009 1:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because
He’s also an injury risk who didn’t throw well the last time he was healthy… I’d rather have the Japanese guy, or Chan Ho Park, either of whom might be available for similar money.
"I've had Bailey's out of a shoe, though."
by IHateSouthBend on Dec 12, 2009 1:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kelly Johnson was non tendered.
He’s a guy I would certainly throw into the mix. Still very young and could be cheap.
Scott Olsen, for whatever reason, is a guy I’ve always liked. Only 25 and while he would not be one of our top priorities, could be a decent 4-5 guy if given the chance.
by CaptainCanuck on Dec 13, 2009 3:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs





















