Max Scherzer - Starter or Closer?
As we wrap up this painful Diamondbacks season, we're left to look ahead to the future to try to make the best roster for ourselves and our future, and one of the most prevalent and talked-about debates is what to do with Max Scherzer. We all know of his killer heat, but he has very fringy secondary-stuff, with both his slider and change-up being works-in-progress. Everyone knows he has closer's stuff, but the key facet of the debate has been whether better production from a reliever for a reduced amount of innings is more valuable then an increased amount of innings from a starter, but with slightly less-impressive overall results. So, to try to settle this debate, I've decided to pool together the first inning of each of Max's starts to try to get a very rough estimate of how Max does when facing three batters rather than having to go through a lineup multiple times and seeing if any trends appeared that allowed for a decision to be a little clearer.
The result of this is the following table:
| Max Scherzer - Starter or Closer? | IP | ER | ERA | ERA+ | BB | BB/9IP | K | K/9IP | K/BB | H | WHIP | HR | HR/9IP | BABIP* |
| Total Stats | 170.1 | 78 | 4.12 | 105 | 63 | 3.3 | 174 | 9.2 | 2.8:1 | 166 | 1.34 | 20 | 1.1 | .302 |
| First Inning of Every Start | 30.0 | 11 | 3.30 | 131 | 13 | 3.9 | 39 | 11.7 | 3.0:1 | 26 | 1.30 | 2** | 0.6 | .320 |
| All Innings Except First Inning of Every Start | 140.1 | 67 | 4.30 | 101 | 50 | 3.2 | 135 | 8.7 | 2.7:1 | 140 | 1.35 | 18 | 1.2 | .299 |
*Sacrifice Fly totals were not gathered per inning and are not factored into BABIP, as I do have some sort of social life to maintain. :-P
**Both first-inning HRs against Rockies @ Coors Field - take what you want from this.
The first thing to obviously take note of is that the first-inning totals are with Scherzer having taken a greater beating over the course of the year with a much higher innings total than he would have incurred as a reliever, so one would think that some of his starts later in the year would have poorer outings for a guy just getting his innings up to a rotation-starter level as he wore down. However, his worst month of the season for first-inning performance was actually May, the second month of the season, in which he allowed six runs (five earned) on 12 hits in the respective first innings of six starts, for a 7.50 first-inning ERA (to be referred to as 1ERA). In April, he had a 0.00 1ERA, a 1.80 1ERA in June, a 0.00 1ERA in July, 4.50 1ERA in August, and a 3.60 1ERA in September. In that dreaded May, he gave up three runs (two earned) in the first against the Dodgers, two earned in the first against the Braves, and another first-inning earned run to the Marlins. Perhaps a slight explanation for the somewhat surprising first-inning suckage of May is the fact that he sported a BABIP of .500 for the first-innings of those six starts, a significant factor in his 1BABIP being 21 points higher than his BABIP not including the first-innings of each of his starts. Given the overall small number of starts for 1ERA to be affected, the fact that he had such a significant streak of bad luck resulting in a very bad month of first-innings had a significant impact on the overall outlook of his numbers. And even with this going against him, Scherzer's 1ERA+ of 131 is lower than all but, surprisingly enough, Blaine Boyer's 159 ERA+ (since his arrival in Arizona, overall on the season Boyer's ERA+ stands at 104) amongst the D-Backs' bullpen, and significantly better than closer Chad Qualls' 119 ERA+, Clay Zavada's 127 ERA+, and "replacement closer" Juan Gutierrez's 105 ERA+. Given these numbers alone, Scherzer would instantly fill in the role of closer for the D-Backs, even ahead of Qualls.
The next point that I feel is extremely important to face is who it is that Scherzer faces in the first inning - namely, the top of the order for the other team. This means that Scherzer is forced to go up against three or four of the other team's best hitters, rather than a fairly more random set of batters to face. If one is to trust a fairly rudimentary way of measuring the average position in the lineup faced by the closer in the ninth inning, the MLB-average WHIP for 2009 is 1.390. This, multiplied by 8 innings, means that, on average, 11.12 batters, reduced to 11 for practicality, either record hits or are walked in 8 innings, while collecting 24 outs. So that means that 35 batters, on average, have come up to hit before the closer come into the game. This means that the closer will face the 36th batter of the game in this average situation, which corresponds to the ninth-hitter. So, Scherzer, as a closer, would, on average, likely face the 9th-12th position player on an NL team (assuming a pinch-hitter is used for the pitcher, who is assumed to be batting ninth, and depending on what pinch-hitters have already been used by the team), or the 9th batter on an AL team, who Max is more likely to get out than any other hitter in the lineup. In the course of a 1-2-3 inning for Max, this means he does not have to face the 3-hitter, typically the best hitter in a lineup, and if one batter does not make an out, Max still does not have to face the cleanup-hitter, a position in the lineup that had an OPS split of 1.101 against Max for 2009, the only position over 1.000. The result of this would mean that Max would generally have an easier set of batters to retire as a closer than he does in the first inning as a starter, which would lead to an improvement on his current 1ERA numbers, further indicating that he could be successful as a closer.
So here's the question that we ask - are the extra 140 not first-inning innings that Scherzer gives us as a starter, in which he has compiled an ERA+ of 101 in 2009, worth the possibility of him being a closer over 60 or so innings with an ERA+ around or over 150? Given the commonly-noted correlation between bullpen success and overall team success (if an example is needed, look at the bullpen stats for the D-backs circa-2007), I would argue that Max as a closer would be beneficial to the team, and even possibly give us the added bonus of keeping Max healthy and blowout-free for longer. But yet it's certainly undeniable that starters with 105 ERA+'s don't grow on trees, and the D-backs don't have a plethora of good starters waiting in the wings (especially since it appears we shouldn't depend on Kevin Mulvey to be reliable as a starter in 2010), so this is certainly a debate without a definite answer, however you choose to look at it,
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Comments
Closers
burn out their arms faster than starting pitchers, all things being equal. The ‘all out max effort’ it takes to pitch out of the bullpen at the end of a game is hell on the arm. At least pitching every five days gives starter arms the chance to heal.
by NASCARbernet on Oct 2, 2009 2:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Where
do you get that closing is more strenuous than starting?
Posting 65 comments/day since June '07.
by DbacksSkins on Oct 2, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is totally untrue...
Total stress on the arm is less because you throw fewer pitches… Look at some of the closers in the game. Hoffman, Wagner, guys that have lasted a long time as closers. It’s not a burnout profession.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Oct 2, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This again?
Max Scherzer has been worth 3.2 WAR this season.
The BEST relief pitcher in baseball (Broxton) has been worth 2.8 WAR.
Unless he gets injured, there’s just nothing to talk about. There’s a concern though, that his fastball velocity dropped steadily towards the end of the season and that might help your point. Let’s hope it’s just the big jump in innings though.
Some other points:
1. I cannot emphasize how tiny a sample size of 30 IP is. You cannot draw ANY conclusions based on that.
2. The thing where you calculate who he’ll come up against based on WHIP is scary. I think it’s safe to say he’ll face a random sequence of hitters. On average, it’ll probably not be as good as the top of the order, and you should have left it there.
3. I don’t have data handy but I’d guess starting pitching, hitting and fielding correlate with success a lot more than bullpen success. If you need an example, take a look at Philadelphia this year. They have a historically bad bullpen and especially closer and they’re doing just fine. The Rockies bullpen ERA is 4.48 this year, as is the Angels.
4. Max may have an ERA+ of 105, but his FIP is 3.86 and his tRA+ is 118. He was a little unlucky with balls in play, and a little unlucky with home runs, but he should be a solid no. 2 starter going forward.
by paqs on Oct 2, 2009 3:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Appologies
If this seems harsh, it’s just a sore point for me.
I liked your prospect articles!
by paqs on Oct 2, 2009 3:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well allow me to disagree with you
1) 30 innings is certainly something to draw some sort of conclusion about, and it’s when Scherzer is freshest in the games he pitches, as would be the case as a closer. That’s up to half a season, maybe more than that for many relievers. Is half a season irrelevant when it comes to drawing conclusions?
2) I said it was just an estimate, and mainly to show that he isn’t going to face the three or four best hitters on a team every time he goes out for one inning. It’s a fair calculation that makes sense, does it not?
3) Philadelphia this season is an exception to the rule since the ballpark they play in is especially favorable to teams that can mash. Last year, for example, they had Lidge being nearly perfect and they won the World Series. And the last time the Diamondbacks had success, they had a good bullpen. Correct me if I’m wrong here.
4) I don’t think anybody feels Max is a #2 starter… Most people are scared about the fact that he may have to be that for us as soon as next season. Plus, if you pitch at Chase, you’re likely to be a little unlucky with home runs…
I guess overall, the decision is also based on the outlook for the D-Backs for next season, and both the rotation and bullpen need to be attended to. I just happen to think Max’s arsenal would work better in the ‘pen. It’s not as one-sided a debate as you seem to believe it is.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Oct 2, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey
I’m just trying to make a point, sorry if I come of as a douche.
Let’s keep going:
1) If you think 30 innings is something on which to draw conclusion, we really shouldn’t be having this argument. Just a quick illustration for you: 31 IP, 4.93 ERA and 28 IP, 5.46 ERA. These two pitchers are terrible, right? They should pitch middle relief? Actually, both of them are Dan Haren 7/23 – 8/14 and 9/15 – 10/1. There are so many random variations in a pitcher’s performance, 30 IP mean nothing.
2) He isn’t going to face the top of the order every time he goes out. The calculation makes no sense because you’re taking an average of random events. Doesn’t matter, your point is valid.
3) Out of the top 11 bullpens (by ERA, which sucks) only 3 belong to playoff teams. If you take FIP, which you should do, only 2 of the top 11 (and the DBacks pen is 8th best). If you claim bullpen success is the primary winning factor, the burden of proof is on you. And Jim already went through this a few times, but our bullpen in 2007 wasn’t a lot better than our bullpen in 2008, just luckier.
4) Well, I don’t know who you’re speaking for, but whatever metric you take, Max would be a top 50 pitcher, which would make him a no. 2. His ERA is a little bit worse than you’d like, but his FIP is excellent. And when I said he’s been unlucky with home runs, I had taken Chase into account already.
5) It obviously isn’t a one sided debate, and that’s a shame, because it really is a no brainer.
p.s. Please read this. http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/evaluating-pitcher-talent/
It explains why you shouldn’t rely on ERA when you evaluate pitcher performance.
by paqs on Oct 5, 2009 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
p.s.
This is a horrible attempt at consolation. :-P Just saying.
Most Depressing Math Question Ever courtesy of Probability class: "Clark and Anthony are two old friends. Let A be the event that Clark will attend Anthony's funeral. Let B be the event that Anthony will attend Clark's funeral. Are A and B independent? Why or why not?"
by IHateSouthBend on Oct 2, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some random thoughts
I would be looking at how Max does the first time through the order compared to subsequently. This removes the skew towards the top of the order caused by looking only at his first inning, and also increases the sample size – we’re now up to 287 PAs, Here are the full stats, but in summary:
1st time: .220/.299/.380 (287 PA)
2nd time: .286/.356/.450 (263 PA)
3rd time: .247/.313/.463 (182 PA)
This does seem to suggest Max is better facing battes the first time – he has a .680 OPS against then, compare to about .800 the second and third times through. However, this is perfectly normal. In the NL this year, the numbers for all pitchers are .719, .760 and .811. So Max is better than league average the first and third time through, worse the second. Not really any evidence to send him to the ’pen.
Starting pitching is more important than relief pitching for a team, simply because starters face about twice as many batters. Assuming an equal distribution, no injuries and a standard five-man rotation/seven-man bullpen split, each starter will deliver about 13% of his team’s PAs, each reliever only 5%.
Max is also young. This was only his age 24 season, so it seems credible that his arsenal is still developing. Median age of the 76 qualifying pitchers in the majors this year was 28. Scherzer is the best young starter this team has had since Brandon Webb. We should give him every chance to succeed as a starter, before sending him to the bullpen.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Oct 2, 2009 2:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My only hope...
is that his endurance gets better. I have to admit that I didn’t watch much of the last month. The team was so bad, college football season had started, college basketball is approaching. In short, there were more encouraging things to do. However, earlier in the season, he seemed to hit a wall in the 5th (sometimes 6th) far too often. Was my view skewed by remember the bad more than the good (entirely possible), will endurance improve (seems doubtful), or is he going to have career-long problem with this (unsure)? If he can’t safely be counted on for 6-7 innings for the vast majority of his starts, is he still a worthwhile starter? I don’t have any solid answers. I’m sure others have followed this more closely than I have. I just have a vague sense of unease when he starts.
by azshadowwalker on Oct 6, 2009 6:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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