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Around SBN: Interview With UMD Athletic Director, Dr. Debbie Yow

Dodgers 6, Diamondbacks 2 - Razing Arizona

Record: 69-66. Pace: 83-79. Change on last season: -6
Magic number: 24. Playoff odds: TBA.

Remember yesterday, when the offense poured from the mountaintops like spring water and quality defense paved the golden streets that wound their way through Diamondbacktown?

...Or something?

Nothing like that in today's affair. A subpar outing from Dan Haren, a couple iffy defensive plays, and the offense reverted back to previous form. In other words, it was like a microcosm of all of the team's shortcomings in August, combined in a handy (but infuriating) one-game package.

This game was close through the first three innings, but that was about it. Mandy had a solo shot in the top of the third, and the Diamondbacks answered back with a run of their own in the bottom half -- Young had an RBI triple that scored Dan Haren, who continued to be a solid performer at the plate (if not so much on the mound). After that, it was a general malaise of Dodgers offense and Arizona outmaking.

The middle innings were particularly unpleasant. Drew's error in the fourth allowed an extra run to score on a Berroa ground ball. Kemp had a two-run homer in the fifth, scoring ManRammer.

The only other serious chance to get back in the game came in the eighth inning. Gameday is still baffled by this inning (Billingsley made two outs by grounding out in our half, for example). Drew and Young had consecutive doubles to put a second run across, but that was the extent of the threat. Three quick outs later, any remote chance was gone.

Haren never looked particularly sharp, particularly after legging it out on the bases to score on Young's triple. He gave up five runs on a whopping 10 hits, although he did avoid walking anyone, continuing the solid K:BB ratio he's had all season. The hits are a more disturbing trend, however: in each of his last eight starts, dating back to July 25th, Haren has given up at least seven hits in all of them, and double digits three times. Just to perpetuate the second half slump idea, here are his numbers in that span:
5-2, 53.1 IP, 71 H, 29 ER, 6 BB, 57 K, 4.89 ERA

What aren't we going to talk about? Ramirez's two home runs, for one thing. Or the fact that Angel Berroa (.224) and Chad Billingsley (.093) were hit by pitches, and he was not. Or the Dodgers closing the gap back to 3.5 games and snapping their eight-game losing streak.

280830129_dodgers_diamondbacks_109253869_live_medium
Master of his Domain: Chris Young, +17.7%
God-Emperor of Suck: Dan Haren, -25.4%

Dishonorable Mention: Mark Reynolds, -12.2%; Chad Tracy, -10.5%

Chris Young is not only the Master of his Domain, he's the sole member of said domain. Besides CY, only Pena and Lyon managed to be in the positive for win expectancy, and their contributions (a scoreless inning apiece in what was essentially a mop-up job) were worth a whopping 0.4%. Evvvvvvverybody else was in the negative. Young had three hits, Ojeda and Drew a couple apiece, and Dunn drew two walks. That's about it. The Fangraph accurately reflects what a downward spiral this game was.

Joining me in a disappointment-filled Gameday Thread were: DbacksSkins, GaryTheGaucho, emilylovesthedbacks, 4 Corners Fan, njjohn, TwinnerA, srdmad, foulpole, unnamedDBacksfan, Scrbl, kishi, rockiesfan4ever, LucaMaz3 and KLM. Nearly 600 comments, although I'd wager almost half of them came in the first three innings. Things seem to quiet down from that point on for some reason...

So enough about that, and enough about the negatives. We're still where we were two days ago, which means we're two days closer to maybe winning this division or something. It's the sinkerballers on the mound tomorrow, with Webb once again trying for win #20, while Lowe attempts to get his record to .500 (despite pretty solid numbers on the year). Maybe the offense will show up. Maybe they won't. Who knows.

Just a reminder: SB Nation will supposedly be down tonight. By all indications, it shouldn't be down for long.

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There, sadly, isn't too much good to be said about this game

On the other hand, I was really amused when I was Googling a completely unrelated topic, and ended up on another site Jim runs.

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 30, 2008 11:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Chicks with guns?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Girls with Guns

mrskishi and I watched part of the Ninja Warrior marathon on G4 this afternoon, so I was reading up on some of the contestants.

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like that show.

There’s nothing fantastic about it, but it always makes for solid viewing. Besides, Makoto Nagano is a pimp.

by Azreous on Aug 31, 2008 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That guy is awesome

When we were watching, it was the women’s tournament. One of the women completed the whole tournament for the third year in a row, but one of the coolest was a mother-daughter team who were both competing. The mother didn’t make it past the first stage, but the daughter made it to the third stage before she was out. She was just 13 years old- I was impressed.

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Careful....

she’s not legal, you know…..

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude

She looked thirteen. And even if I was wired that way, any girl who can make it to round three of Ninja Warrior can most likely beat the crap out of me. =)

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

She looked thirteen

Devin — I don’t really know you well enough to understand whether this is a turn-on or turn-off.

JK!! (I hope)

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A great show

Yeah, we’re in the top ten on Google for ‘Women of Ninja Warrior’, which has been a nice source of traffic. :-) Love that program – at first, we thought it [Ninja Warrior] was an anime show, but soon discovered otherwise… It’s a great mix of the comic and the extremely serious. We always joke we’re going to do like some of the competitors and build copies of the obstacles in our back-yard. Always wonder how far we’d get on the course. I think the Jump Hang would be a big problem, and if by some chance we got past that, the Warped Wall would be the end of me…

by Jim McLennan on Aug 31, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In all seriousness...

I think I could get past stage one, mostly because my height would get me past the Warped Wall. Now, that was before they changed stage one and put in the Jumping Spider, which would destroy me.

by Azreous on Aug 31, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know the show,

but have no doubt that I’d be hardcore enough to kick its ass.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

They’ve had 20 tournaments with 100 contestants each time, and only two people have completed the whole thing.

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you doubt me, sir?

Dude…. I did wrestling in HS. Case closed.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That explains a lot.

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Mockery to follow.

by Jim McLennan on Aug 31, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In MY face.

Damn….

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no illusions

No way could I get past the first stage. The Jumping Spider would be my doom.

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By the way...

There’s your roll call, Phil.

by Azreous on Aug 31, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I applaud you, sir.

Well done.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Drew's error

I believe it was ruled that Drew’s error only allowed the runner to advance and Haren was credited with two earned runs. That’s a tough ruling against Haren.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Aug 31, 2008 12:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's what I saw too.

It seemed all five of Haren’s runs were earned. Not sure why at one wasn’t unearned.

by Azreous on Aug 31, 2008 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Minus the at.

by Azreous on Aug 31, 2008 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's official

Ladies and gentlemen, the time has come to have your dreams haunted and your days tormented by that one phrase that is relentlessly drilled into your skull every year: There’s only one October.

And they’re even streamlining from last year- now, some of the October ads will feature none other than Frank Caliendo! If they add in clips of the Rockies sweeping the Diamondbacks, it’ll be everything you hated about last October combined into one!

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 3:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I can live with that

as long as they add in clips of the Diamondbacks sweeping the Cubs from last year too.

by TwinnerA on Aug 31, 2008 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What is the appeal

of Frank Caliendo? If I want to see John Madden or Jack Nicholson, it’s not difficult. And chances are that the real thing will be much funnier than Frank. Am I missing something?

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 31, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two things

Should that error on Drew have gone to Tracy? From where I was sitting, it looked like Drew didnt get much on the throw, affording Tracy time to meet the ball – coming off the bag if necessary. Was curious how it looked on TV.

Second, today’s giveaway was an Eric Byrnes ballcap – a standard black Dbacks model but with curly blonde locks sewn into the back of the hatband. Everybody was wearing ’em. A few insecure guys ripped out the hair and just wore the caps, but they were everywhere. Funny thing was, I didnt see one guy who looked like Byrnes, but about 40 guys who coulda doubled for Adam Dunn.

by Diamondhacks on Aug 31, 2008 4:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

DHacks,

Why do you hate freedom?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 5:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please apply the protective plastic sheeting

provided in your Welcome packets. ( My head is about to burst with bewilderment.)

by Diamondhacks on Aug 31, 2008 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What?

It’s an honest question.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it?

I assumed you were joking. Freedom encompasses alot and this seems pretty out of the blue, skins. So, give me the courtesy of some kind of case and I’ll give you the courtesy of a response. Maybe we’ll both learn something.

I think I’m actually pretty fond of freedom. I guess I’d put it right behind Truth, Beauty. Civilization. Stuff like that. But fire away, and we’ll see where it leads us.

by Diamondhacks on Sep 1, 2008 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Honest, yes,

but not necessarily a serious question.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Sep 1, 2008 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good morning

Greetings from the Best Western in Chandler, where I am currently lurking, as we prepare to take guests back to the airport after the film festival, which was a great deal of fun and, it looks like we covered our costs, which was a big concern as this was our first year in a ‘proper’ venue, with the additional costs that leads to.

6-2 was not quite the result I wanted to see when we got here at 2am last night [especially after sitting through interminable breakdowns of college football games between places I’d never heard of and in which I have no interest]. If there was a good day to be sitting in the projectionist’s booth for 14 hours, seems like this was it… Still, I am optimistic Webb can continue his almost complete mastery of the Dodgers [likely only surpassed in team history by Johnson over the Cubs!] this afternoon, and we can end the series 4.5 up, which would be highly satisfactory.

Thanks to Azreous for the fine recap as ever. I’ll likely get the chance to scan over some stuff from the airport, as we drop off movie stars [well, the closest we got to them!] and pick up lucha wrestlers. Yes: another interesting day in prospect, but at least there should be wifi in most locations today!

by Jim McLennan on Aug 31, 2008 12:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

especially after sitting through interminable breakdowns of college football games between places I’d never heard of and in which I have no interest

Wait a second — Jim? Are you implying that you don’t care about Pullman, WA and Stillwater, OK?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let there be no mistake on this

1. College football, like all college sports, is a second-rate game played by amateurs, which should be of no interest to anyone with two brain-cells to rub together. Call me old-fashioned: I thought the purpose of going to college was to learn things not to be found in your coach’s playbook, but I don’t see ESPN televising the Math Olympics.
2. I care not one whit for Pullman or Stillwater.
3. I care even less for the results produced by their football teams.
4. And I care not at all for seeing the stats of their star player scrolling across the bottom of my ESPN ticket, when it is 2:15 am in the morning, I feel like I have been whacked with a baseball bat for 12 hours, and I just want to find out the fricking D-backs score.

by Jim McLennan on Aug 31, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And on that happy note...

Anyone know what the score of the NAU vs ASU game was last night?

Kidding. I’m sure NAU got their asses handed to them.

by emilylovesthedbacks on Aug 31, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

30-13, ASU.

Every year, I’m surprised to realize I still haven’t turned off the automatic text messages that send me the scores for NAU games, despite not having lived in Flagstaff for 3 years.

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, I guess.

I had several people ask if I wanted to go to Tempe for that game…school spirit or something?
One, I hate football. Two, it’d be like watching the Red Sox play my brother’s little league team. Three, I’ve only been up here for a week. Why in the hell would I want to go watch a shitty football game when the weather’s over 100 degrees? Yeah, exactly.

by emilylovesthedbacks on Aug 31, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I find it strange that, between NAU and ASU, the Lumberjacks are the team who play their home games in a dome.

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

30-13?

Weak. Too bad it wasn’t 70-0, like the UofA.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not really

NAU won the second half, easily

I was not impressed with the devils, at all.

Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.

by unnamedDBacksfan on Aug 31, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well.....

to be fair, Stillwater IS relevant — it’s Matt Holliday’s hometown.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

where's

Randy Winn from?

Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.

by unnamedDBacksfan on Aug 31, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

According to Wiki,

he was born in Los Angeles.

Ahah!! I KNEW that’s an evil place!!

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

College sports

are important because they provide advertising for their schools and bring in money. Just because you don’t care about it doesn’t mean it’s not relevant or a pretty big deal.

Also, funnily enough, many people are fans of their particular college because they went there, and most of them have more than two brain cells to rub together.

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Aug 31, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

O RLY?

Link

The NCAA’s latest data shows that more than four of every five major-college sports programs need institutional subsidies, student fees and other supplements to balance their budgets.

The same piece also points out that college presidents are typically paid far less than the coach of the football team. A totally ridiculous scenario but one, sadly, on par with the pages and pages devoted to high-school football in the Republic, demonstrating the same insane inability to get priorities right. Little wonder that in a recent survey of 10th-graders found that, “In math, only four countries [of 30] had average scores lower than the United States.” But you’re #1 in American football! Woo!

“Advertising”? If you want to pick a college based on their football team, you should really be considering a career based around the phrase, “D’you want fries with that?” since an advanced education will clearly be wasted on you. As for the ‘fans of their particular college’, in the 2006–2007 academic year, 13,629 students graduated from ASU’s four campuses – and that’s the largest public research university facility in the US. Even if you are extremely charitable and factor in forty years at that rate, it’s about a whopping 0.2% of the population. Hardly worth a blanket of national media coverage, I’d say. Of all the things for which to be proud of my university, if I have to rely on their sports prowess, I’d frankly be embarrassed.

by Jim McLennan on Aug 31, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the money front

Some of the expenditures for college sports do drive me a little batty. At ASU, where they’re combining our college with two others, we just spent over 8 million dollars on a football practice facility that collapsed in last week’s big storms. Cosmetic spending like that, on a program which is only tangentially related to academics, is remarkably wasteful.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 31, 2008 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

we just spent over 8 million dollars on a football practice facility that collapsed in last week’s big storms.

Typical ASU?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Sep 1, 2008 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh jeez

yes, all glory to universities comes from their football teams, you’re absolutely right.

I’m not implying people pick their colleges because of the football programs, though I’m sure some do, but it can generate interest. And guess what? Many top football programs are also top universties for academics. Is there a correlation? Maybe not, but if you hear about University of Southern California all the time, you might put that higher on your list then some of the other PAC-10 schools if all things are equal.

I hate to break to you Jim, but the world doesn’t revolve around you. It’s annoying when ESPN or any media talks about things you’re not interested in, but you don’t have to watch. Trying to throw attacks around that people that enjoy college sports are intellectual midgets actually says more about you then it does about any one you’re trying to insult. But who am I to question you, I’m just some dumbass who is trying to get a degree that only has two brain cells to rub together and apparently is going to end up at McDonalds.

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Aug 31, 2008 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry you feel that way
But who am I to question you, I’m just some dumbass who is trying to get a degree that only has two brain cells to rub together and apparently is going to end up at McDonalds.

You apparently missed the bit where I said, “If you want to pick a college based on their football team…” – and, considering the time and financial investment involved in such a decision, I would like to think you were smarter than that.

I hate to break to you Jim, but the world doesn’t revolve around you. It’s annoying when ESPN or any media talks about things you’re not interested in, but you don’t have to watch.

Normally, I would simply have changed the channel, but where else, exactly, am I going to find out the Diamondbacks result at 2am, with the laptop down in the car-park? Apparently, only after sitting through the enthralling details of Podunk U vs. Nonentity College and 20 similar match-ups. Pardon me if I am unimpressed, and heaven forbid that I decide to vocalize my feelings on this matter – even as I’m aware of how deeply-entrenched this is in American culture [see the list of SB Nation college blogs, for example]. That alone doesn’t make it “right”. There seems to be a reliance on circular reasoning here. Why is college sport on ESPN? Because it’s popular. What makes it so popular? Because it’s on ESPN.

Now, I am entirely in favor of sports as one element of a well-rounded education, but the elevation of those who take part, far above those who excel academically, is something with which I fundamentally have to take issue. You are, of course, entirely free to disagree, and act accordingly. I just think that if students spent the time at the library they spend on cheering for second-rate athletes, then America might find its intellectual ass not getting kicked quite as much by other countries, which have this curious notion that college is actually supposed to be for learning stuff, first and foremost. How’s the football program at Tokyo U?

by Jim McLennan on Sep 1, 2008 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's

a complete difference in saying, “you know, I don’t like the programming or college sports” but when you start going off on “not having two brain cells to rub together” you should expect someone is going to call you on it.

You seem to take issue in the idea of people going to school and at the same time liking the athletic programs. Of course many students are woefully unprepared for college, but how is this the fault of athletics? And trying to take Podunk U. and comparing it to top international universities is hardly fair, because then we can turn that right around and find terrible international schools and compare them to Harvard.

I’m not really going to continue a discussion about university politics, however, because it’s a complex subject that we can’t really do justice here. All I want to point out is the ridiculous insults.

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Sep 1, 2008 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All I want to point out is the ridiculous insults.

Strong opinions have NEVER really been a part of the SnakePit, really. ;-)

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Sep 1, 2008 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is a difference

between a strong opinion (college football is a waste of time) and insulting people. Shocker, I know.

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Sep 1, 2008 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Naturally.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Sep 1, 2008 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is something tangentially related- I wish, wish, wish that we could get a daily, half hour sports news show in town. Didn’t FSN AZ used to do this? Do they still do it, and I just never see it, due to the seven hour block of ads for Greatest Misnamed Sports Show Ever?

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Sep 1, 2008 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Podunk U

Whoa, careful. My mom went to Podunk U.

Why is college sport on ESPN? Because it’s popular. What makes it so popular? Because it’s on ESPN.

Not true. It’s on ESPN because it’s popular, and it’s sport. It’s popular because people love sport. There’s no circular reasoning here.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Sep 1, 2008 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

College sports were popular well before ESPN came around.

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Sep 1, 2008 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

YES, RLY.
The same piece also points out that college presidents are typically paid far less than the coach of the football team.

As opposed to — the POTUS, who makes $400,000 a year, and Alex Rodriguez, who makes $27 million a year? I’m not really sure I understand any of the rest of your argument, either.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Sep 1, 2008 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Duh

Alex Rodriguez is not hired to play or paid by the US government.

If you don’t understand that difference, then yes, I can see why you wouldn’t understand much of the argument.

by Jim McLennan on Sep 1, 2008 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course I understand the difference.

I just don’t see why you find it so despicable that sports-related talent is paid more than administrative-related talent in the collegiate sphere when it’s exactly the same way in the real world. Professional entertainers make more money in society at large, on average, than anyone else. Why would it be any different among our colleges and universities?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Sep 1, 2008 4:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

George Steinbrenner

Is among the Top 400 Richest Americans, with a net worth estimated at $1.2 billion dollars. I don’t see A-Rod on that list. David Geffen, the man who runs Dreamworks, is #52 in the same ranking, worth $6 billion. I don’t see Tom Cruise on that list.

And besides, movies and sports teams are fully commercial endeavors, not educational establishments. A-Rod is fundamental to the success of the New York Yankees in a way that is immeasurably superior to a football coach. Again, if you don’t understand that difference, then really, there’s not much point in discussing this with you. Or are you trying to tell me ASU would implode without Dennis Erickson?

But, hey, maybe it’s just me, coming from a country where further education is seen somewhat differently, with more important things to consider than being a farm team for pro sports.

by Jim McLennan on Sep 1, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Academic Ranking of World Universities

is dominated (especially the top portion) US universities. ASU ranks 93, which isn’t too bad all things considered.

Of course, there are things always wrong with college rankings (what criteria do we use to measure, what are the weights, et cetera), but we can both cherry-pick data about this. It seems to me you have an underlying disdain for US universities, though. Do you care to share why?

Also, any one who follows gridiron football at all knows that the head coach is more important than the vast majority of players. It’s not even a fair comparison to say that A-Rod is as important (unless you want to talk strictly in economic terms) as a good head coach in football.

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Sep 1, 2008 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not so much disdain for US universities

As the US education system as a whole, and the ‘jock culture’ which appears to permeate it at every level, extolling success in physical sports over academic achievement. The glorification of college football is simply one aspect of this – perhaps the most obvious.

I don’t think it’s coincidence that most of the current top 20 college football teams are not to be found in the upper echelons of any of the ranking tables…

by Jim McLennan on Sep 1, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

University of Notre Dame

a traditional football powerhouse, is also one of the higher ranking schools by most rankings. So is Cal Berkeley, or UCLA, or USC, or Ohio State. The Big 10 conference top to bottom is one of the best academic conferences, and have quite a few excellent athletic programs. PAC-10 has schools like the University of California system, USC, University of Arizona, U of Washington, and Oregon State (the only public unversity to be a land, sea, space, and sun grant university).

Of course, private school are almost always better than public, and not surprisingly, have a considerable less athletic emphasis. I even agree with this philosophy, even though I enjoy watching college sports. I agree that schools should focus on academics and the traditional athletic conferences should also compete academically, but we can’t deny that athletics don’t provide benefits as well through recognition, scholarships for kids that might not afford a better education, et cetera.

The whole system is screwed up, but dismissing the thousands of NCAA athlethes who compete and then move on to a non professional athletic career is pretty pointless.

Also, I do agree that I wish there was less “business” to college football and basketball, and that we could be looking at future that complete erodes any value these programs once had.

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Sep 1, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As a note

I couldn’t find Notre Dame in the top 100 in the Academic Ranking of World Universities survey you mentioned, over the past five years. Obviously, big universities are going to have a huge advantage, both in rankings such as these which factor in things like ‘Nobel Prizes won by alumni’ – the more alumni you have, the better! – and in sporting terms. Seeing some large universities near the top of both lists is not really a surprise.

My rebuttal to the argument that athletics provides “Scholarships for kids that might not afford a better education,” is that it would be better if those scholarships were based on academic achievement, not on whether the recipients have a jump-shot or can run a good blocking pattern. If you have such exceptional abilities, you really don’t need a college education in order to make your way in the world. And every spot occupied by a ‘jock’ is a spot that could have gone to someone else…

by Jim McLennan on Sep 1, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except that

to assume that “jocks” can’t cut it in college isn’t very fair either, and the vast majority of college athletes never can “make [their] way in the world” through sports.

I don’t think a school should bend their admittance policies to let in borderline students for sports, but I do think that if a kid is good enough to get in and needs help paying than scholarships can be a good way. The school gets top tier (or as close as they can get) talent to play, and a kid gets to go to college. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. People receive music scholarships, chess scholarship, academic scholarships, and more, which no doubt all of which you oppose.

I’d also like to point out that most public schools are required by state laws to have very loose acceptance standards for residents. Getting into ASU is easy, which unfortunately can skew the statistics greatly.

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Sep 1, 2008 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Scholarships

If a kid is good at music, wants to study music at college, and can’t afford it, then a music scholarship is a great idea. [Though please don’t get me started on the concept of scholarships for illegal immigrants. :-)]

That isn’t the same thing as most athletic scholarships, because as far as I know, it’s not generally possible to get a degree in ‘being a linebacker’ – but that’s what gets you the scholarship.

Of course, I don’t proclaim anything like the idea that all jocks are barely-literate grunts. But I do think that privileged admission to a supposedly-academic establishment should be based on your academic qualifications and not much else.

by Jim McLennan on Sep 1, 2008 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry.

I had nothing to add, really. I just felt like someone else needed to chime in.
:-)

by emilylovesthedbacks on Sep 2, 2008 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sports medicine

is not a valid academic choice? Sports education isn’t a valid academic choice?

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Sep 1, 2008 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you have to be a jock

To study sports medicine?

I trust you’re not serious on that one.

by Jim McLennan on Sep 2, 2008 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me rephrase that comment

As I think I worded it badly. There is nothing intrinsic about being a good athlete, that would make you a better sports doctor, or better at educating someone else about sports. This is a bit like the debate about Joe Morgan, great baseball player vs. Joe Morgan, sucky commentator. The skill sets required for the professions are separate and independent.

by Jim McLennan on Sep 2, 2008 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And it's

similar in music. You can get a music scholarship and study music education, even though you have no intention to play professionally. Some people also receive music scholarship and don’t even get a music degree, instead using it to get something else. So should they not get a scholarship either?

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Sep 2, 2008 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It seems a waste

And, indeed, somewhat selfish. Certainly, preference should [and I hope, is?] given to those who are intending to study music. But again, I still don’t know what degree being a good quarterback is supposed to help you obtain. The logic of “he can throw the ball accurately, therefore let’s give him a leg-up on a college degree,” escapes me entirely.

by Jim McLennan on Sep 2, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The jock culture

probably contributes to the US getting its ass kicked academically, but I cant hold big time college football – or anything much at the university level for that matter – too responsible.

As soco’s chart illustrated, the US university system still sets the world standard – by a healthy margin. The issue is US kids are increasingly unprepared to excel in them, relative to intl peers, due to widespread cultural values that manifest themselves from the cradle on. Universities tap into those values to financially strengthen their institutions, but (jock jokes aside) I’m skeptical that college football is responsible for any meaningful decline in our nation’s academic standing.

For example, your idea to reassign these athletic scholarships (primarily in football and men’s basketball) to more academically deserving youth is well intentioned and interesting, but probably not feasible because the athletic ‘scholarships’ (salaries might be a more accurate term) are essentially self financing (ie not easily transferable to eggheads). The athletic talent ‘paid for’ in football and men’s basketball, along with those eye popping coaches’ salaries, help deliver tens of millions of dollars to the big universities (with smaller paydays trickling down to many smaller schools), which in turn typically cover most, if not all, costs associated with fielding so called “lesser” and intramural sports – and in some cases help finance non athletic assets.

Your USA Today link indicated that 80% of college athletic depts run a deficit, but I’d look at it as 20% of the athletic departments are entirely self-financed! Are there any healthy, organized student endeavors, academic or otherwise, involving thousands of kids, that can boast that? Everything else I can think of requires significant funding (public, private or student). IOW, the government isnt subsidizing football teams. At 80% of schools, it’s subsidizing student participation in any sports that cant self finance and that redistributed football revenues were insufficent to cover.

All that said, I agree that our national academic slippage is partly tied to our values; our lack of academic hunger compared to Chinese or Indian kids. But I really dont see that as anything especially new. What’s new is that, for the first time in recorded history, young kids across the globe have a geometrically higher chance to compete for what’s long been the world’s foremost academic prize – an American education.

by Diamondhacks on Sep 2, 2008 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m reminded of the words of Babe Ruth.

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Sep 1, 2008 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I love hot dogs"?

What's for dinner, mum? Heinz Baked Beans.

by soco on Sep 1, 2008 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When asked why he was paid more than President Hoover, Babe Ruth is said to have answered, “I had a better year than he did.”

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Sep 2, 2008 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

KTAR says we’ve traded for David Eckstein now.

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 4:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the tip

I’ll get something posted quickly on this before I get out of here in 15 mins.

by Jim McLennan on Aug 31, 2008 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No problem

I was waiting to see if KTAR or someone would have an article up I could link to. =)

"Only one thing is gonna walk you through this, Mal. Belief."

by kishi on Aug 31, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

Wow…. at least we have him for the playoffs.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 31, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the

Official link

For some technical reason, I can’t create new stories just now – about to leave, so I’ll turn this one over to kishi for formal publication whenever it’s possible1

by Jim McLennan on Aug 31, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Never mind

We’re back up and I got something posted.

by Jim McLennan on Aug 31, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is one of my favorite times of year

in the valley, and college football is one reason why. I’m not really a big college football fan, but as August melds into September, the weather is finally breaking, with a promise of seven or eight Chamber of Commerce months ahead. Kids are back in school, challenged by new teachers and renewing old friendships. Baseball is separating its men from its boys. But in Arizona, even these harbingers of September pale next to the return of big state university teams to the gridiron. There’s something exciting and hopeful about enthusiastic swarms of Sun Devils and Wildcats storming the field ( and their early season competition) under the lights in magnificent stadium settings.

Growing up in Connecticut, we didnt really have that. Football was a day thing, and heralded cold gray days ahead. There was the Yale Bowl and monuments to past grandeur, but nothing like a sunset over the campus buttes or the mountains around Tucson. There’s something uniquely Arizonan about college football here, that’s different from midwestern or SEC ball. Something tied to our unusual seasons and topography that I am very fond of this time of year.

by Diamondhacks on Sep 1, 2008 1:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A very artistic way of putting it.

I think it’s fairly clear that football, in general, plays a much larger role in midwestern life and southern life than in the northeast — part of it is because of the weather, part of it is because of the presence of more compelling activities in the more densely-populated areas, and part of it, in terms of the south’s obsession, is metaphorical, I believe. (Hey, we lost the Civil War, but LSU won the title last year!)

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Sep 1, 2008 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are clearly more compelling activities

in Union strongholds like Washington DC, that’s for sure ;- )

by Diamondhacks on Sep 1, 2008 4:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's those same swarms of Sun Devils

who kick me out of my usual parking lot and force me to park almost a mile from class. But I’m not bitter. No sir, not at all.

On the other hand, I can get excited about all the other things you mentioned, especially the nice weather.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Sep 1, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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