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Better Red than dead: Micah to Cincinnati?

Mrsnakepit_tiny by Jim McLennan on

Nick Piecoro is reporting, "Right-hander Micah Owings is one of the players to be named later in the deal that brought Adam Dunn to the Diamondbacks on Monday. It's unclear if Owings has yet to be placed on waivers. He will have to clear waivers if he is to be traded before the end of the season." There's no independent confirmation of this as yet, and no word on the third player involved in the deal.

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Not that I think

this isn’t true, but right it just sounds like a mess. Hopefully we’ll know more soon.

Knock off the hippie crap, strap on a helmet, and start shooting. This is baseball, Diamondbacks, I want you to storm that beach like it's Normandy!

by soco on Aug 12, 2008 8:34 PM EDT   0 recs

I'll miss Micah =[

Wikipedia is accurate. (citation needed)

by Muu on Aug 12, 2008 8:34 PM EDT   0 recs

Now, is ESPN going to release poisonous rattlers into the Cincinnati area, with tags reading “Lost: One Diamondback. Welcome to Cincinnati, Micah Owings!”?

Personally, I’m waiting until we have confirmation of this.

Am I avoiding the subject, or am I doing philosophy?

by kishi on Aug 12, 2008 8:35 PM EDT   0 recs

+ 1 hundred meeleeon

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 12, 2008 8:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Horrible trade

This is turning into a compelte farce. Way to empty the farm guys for a 7 week rental.
We really do not have patience to develop young talent, do we?

the front office can kiss my ass.

Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.

by unnamedDBacksfan on Aug 12, 2008 8:39 PM EDT   0 recs

"empty the farm"?

If our farm system has all of THREE good players, and one of them was a single A pitcher coming back from Tommy John surgery, then our minor league system is MUCH worse than I thought….

On the other hand, perhaps you’re being hyperbolic?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 3:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Also....

“no patience to develop young talent”?

Um…. Chris Snyder, Miguel Montero, Chad Tracy, Conor Jackson, Stephen Drew, Mark Reynolds, Chris Young, Justin Upton, Brandon Webb, Max Scherzer, Tony Peña, Doug Slaten, Alex Romero, Jamie D’Antona…... I’m sure I’m forgetting some, too. CY came in a trade, but he was still a minor leaguer at the time.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 3:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sorry unnamedDBacksfan,

I had to hide your comment, but yes, I am serious. Why? With the youngest starting position players in the majors, your claim that the org “has no patience to develop young talent” just doesn’t make much sense. I realize you’re upset about the trade, but do you really still make the same claim?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Confused!

Josh Byrnes really thinks that Micah is done? I mean regardless (i thought) he was a pitcher who at the least had enough stuff to be a regular 4/5 guy in the majors. I am confused…..

http://azsportshub.com

by bobman024 on Aug 12, 2008 8:47 PM EDT   0 recs

It's not necessarily one or the other

it could be simply that Micah was what it would take to get Dunn here and he made a choice.

Knock off the hippie crap, strap on a helmet, and start shooting. This is baseball, Diamondbacks, I want you to storm that beach like it's Normandy!

by soco on Aug 12, 2008 8:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I thought he was

generally considered to be an “acceptable” trade chip when we were talking about Mark Teixeira.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 12, 2008 9:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He was.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 3:45 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Owings to Reds

Also according to Hal McCoy of the Dayton Daily News

From a sound source: One of the two yet to be identified players coming to the Reds in the Adam Dunn deal is Arizona pitcher Micah Owings.
The third-round pick of the Diamondbacks in 2008 was 8-8 with a 4.30 ERA in 27 starts last season, his rookie year, but has fallen on rough times this year — 6-9 in 18 starts with a 5.93 ERA.
Shades of Homer Bailey.

by cesarhernandez on Aug 12, 2008 8:53 PM EDT   0 recs

Damn

I yelled NOOOOOOOO when I heard this on the radio on the way home from work. Do not like it at all.

by TwinnerA on Aug 12, 2008 9:13 PM EDT   0 recs

It's just Micah Owings

Reds fan here. The general response at their site is kind of a ‘meh,’ about Owings. Not loving it, but not hating it. How screwed up is his shoulder anyway? And should the Reds give up on him as a pitcher and make him a 1B or OF?

by cesarhernandez on Aug 12, 2008 9:19 PM EDT   0 recs

At least TRY hi as a pitcher

Bob Melvin did everything he could to destroy the poor kid’s psyche. But he’s tough. He may make a decent starter yet…until Dusty Baker gets to him.

Poor Micah.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 12, 2008 9:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What did Melvin do to destroy his psyche?

Owings had a seven start span in which he allowed 29 earned runs in 35.1 IP before Melvin first skipped his rotation spot and used him out of the bullpen.

What was Melvin supposed to do, keep running him out there when he couldn’t get anybody out?

by dahlian on Aug 12, 2008 9:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Isn't that

what he did?

It seemed like Owings was the posterboy for BoMel’s ””leave’em in too long” strategy. This may be colored by my strong dislike of the Most Cordial Manager in Baseball, but I can remember at least three games where Owings had absolutely nothing and looked about two inches from complete panic, yet BoMel left him into get hammered some more.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 12, 2008 9:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The guy went seven starts

averaging only five runs a start and you think Melvin should have had a quicker hook? The bullpen was dying then and the last thing this team needed was a started that couldn’t make it through five.

It’s not his psyche, the guy just sucked for the last two months. I don’t think turning him into a four inning starter would have helped him any.

by dahlian on Aug 12, 2008 9:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, I do think he needed a quicker hook

And I think he should have been moved to the pen or sent down sooner. By the time we did send him down, he looked absolutely lost. On-the-verge-of-breaking-into-tears-on-the-mound lost. That’s not the kind of mindset I want to see in a pitcher.

If Owings can recover some of his confidence, I think he will be a solid pitcher. But I don’t think we did him any favors in his last few weeks in the majors.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 12, 2008 9:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Um.....

are you just being argumentative? Or are you being serious?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 4:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm being serious

in that I believe that all of Micah’s problems are of his own doing. I don’t believe that “Bob Melvin did everything he could to destroy the poor kid’s psyche.”

Melvin gave the kid every opportunity in the world to succeed over the last two months and of late, Owings simply hasn’t been able to hack it. Micah is 25 years old and has thrown over 250 innings in the major league, if leaving him in the ball game for five innings so that he can work through is own problems is enough to “destroy his psyche”, then frankly his psyche wasn’t much to begin with.

Of course, I’m on the side of the fence that believes Micah’s psyche (and Melvin’s handling of it) had next to nothing to do with his struggles of late. Instead, I’m of the opinion that “failure to throw pitches for strikes” is the most likely culprit.

by dahlian on Aug 13, 2008 4:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I concur

you’re pretty fragile if a few innings is enough to destroy your pysche. I know we like to dump on the “Melvin is a moron” bandwagon but it’s a stretch to connect Micah’s problems to Melvin, especially since most of us hoped but weren’t sure that he’d cut at the major league level.

I think the problem here is that we all fell in love with his bat last season more than anything else.

Knock off the hippie crap, strap on a helmet, and start shooting. This is baseball, Diamondbacks, I want you to storm that beach like it's Normandy!

by soco on Aug 13, 2008 10:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Exactly.

If Edgar Gonzalez went 6-9 with a 5.93 ERA, people would be calling for his head on a platter. EdGon is 5 months younger than Micah….

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I wasn’t calling for his head on a platter. I still like EdGon. I think he might be very serviceable down the road.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Aug 13, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I wasn't talking about you, specifically....

....I was talking more about foulpole types.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 3:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't mean to make excuses

for Owings’ poor performance. I just think that things fell apart when he lost confidence in his pitches.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 13, 2008 11:07 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Of course,

I don’t have the stats to back this up (I’m not even sure where to get them). But it seemed like Owings’ control got worse as his situation worsened. The more unhappy he was, the more trouble he had throwing strikes. Add that to his poor composure on the mound and it looks like his problems are as much mental as anything.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 13, 2008 11:13 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No, I don't think that Melvin did anything to ruin him either.

It just seemed like you were initially saying that he SHOULDN’T have been allowed to pitch that many innings, and then you came out in favor of the opposite. (I’m of the former opinion, myself.)

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 10:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Please excuse the hyperbole

I knew that it would cause such a kefuffle, I would have said it differently.

Beyond his numbers, which as you pointed out weren’t as bad as they could have been, Micah Owings looked absolutely defeated. In his last few appearances, he literally looked like he was on the verge of tears. I have never seen a professional athlete look so miserable while he was competing.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 13, 2008 10:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

One day

I will learn how to NOT hit the post button before I’m finished.

Once Micah started panicking as things went south, I think BoMel should have pulled him from the rotation. Keeping him there may have been “supportive” but it didn’t help Owings and it didn’t help the team.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 13, 2008 10:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 11:04 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think you have to give him

at least a year or two to try and refine his off speed stuff.

But I agree, Micah is a prime example of the sort of player that a fan base can extremely overrate. A guy with decent results, but extremely average stuff that will have to make a quantum leap in both his control and his off speed stuff to become anything more than back of the rotation filler. He also has that dynamic bat that makes everyone take notice and want so badly for him to succeed.

I like the guy and I would have liked nothing more than to see him succeed as a Diamondback, but I just can’t get too choked over him leaving.

by dahlian on Aug 12, 2008 9:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I was going to make the same point....

Micah’s the kinda player that you can get emotionally attached to as a fan—but you have to see through that. As a RHP, without good control or a third pitch, and with a fastball topping out at… what? 91? Micah may not ever be anything more than an average MLB starter with the novelty of having decent power numbers with the bat. Also, the novelty of plunking every other batter in the lineup.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 3:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Forget third pitch

he barely has a second pitch.

by dahlian on Aug 13, 2008 3:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I wouldn't worry about the shoulder BEFORE he gets to Cincy.

He doesn’t have any history of shoulder issues. I’d worry about it AFTER he gets there, with Dusty as manager. :-(

Do us a favor…. PLEASE don’t let Dusty rip our Micah’s arm out of its socket?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 4:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Why did he need to be named later?

I didn’t think he could be a PTBNL since he’s played against both leagues this year.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 12, 2008 9:34 PM EDT   0 recs

That's not how it works.

A PTBNL can’t be in the same league as the player being traded for at the time of the trade.

Also, Owings would have to go through waivers before he could be traded which is why he’s a PTBNL.

by dahlian on Aug 12, 2008 9:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

OK

That makes a lot more sense than the tangled mess I had in my head. Thanks.

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 12, 2008 9:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

ugh

it’s still an okay trade, but I really disapprove of Byrnes’ growing penchant for selling low on players (Quentin, Owings). Owings to me was a guy that you absolutely should not have sold because he value had hit rock bottom. I just don’t get it.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Aug 12, 2008 10:26 PM EDT   0 recs

That is

an interesting trend. Both seemed redeemable when we traded them (but I guess the other teams wouldn’t have taken them if they didn’t).

"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson

by Scrbl on Aug 12, 2008 10:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't

really think that Owings’ value was at “rock bottom”. Not even close. He’s a young, cheap pitcher who’s well known for his bat. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the reason he became a PTBNL was because another team tried to claim him off waivers.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 4:42 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Rock bottom indeed… there was no point in the last three years where his value was lower. In fact, three months ago, he would have fetched a handsome reward. In fact, I was advocating that we move him then if we could get a good return.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Aug 13, 2008 9:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

They were already TRYING to trade him then.

But three months ago, he was a member of our starting rotation and we still felt like he had a future with us. With Petit, Scherzer, Parker, and possibly Vasquez, we’ve got what are now looking like better options.

Anyway, generally, when you’re in the middle of a pennant race, you don’t trade your players who are doing well. You trade your players who are underperforming and can’t currently help you win.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 10:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Close
Anyway, generally, when you’re in the middle of a pennant race, you don’t trade your players who are doing well. You trade your players who are underperforming and can’t currently help you win.

That’s close. You generally don’t trade players who are doing well on the Major League level. You do trade players who are doing well in the minors (see Bonafacio, Emilio). The point is that we got minor league value for a guy who just a few months ago commanded major league value.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Aug 13, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Except

that just a few months ago, Micah looked like he might be able to help our team—even though there were FO concerns already about a guy with control problems, a 90 MPH fastball, and a mediocre changeup. (Hence, bringing him up in trade talks.) The FO was proved to probably be correct, and Micah’s status and value to THIS team changed. His value as a PH was always marginal anyway, even when he WAS hitting.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 3:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Also,

you really still can’t blame J.Byrnes for the C.Quentin trade. Blame J.Moorad for the E.Byrnes deal.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 4:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not to rip open the can of worms too much

But I don’t see how the Brynes deal forced the player to be traded for an A ball player, when the player had minor league options and a genuine excuse to be at AAA for a while (injuries) and also might have been needed overr the season (sophmore slumps from Young/Upton) or injuries.

Yeah the Byrnes contract was retarded but that’s not a reason to excuse Byrnes for selling low, the trade in general could perhaps be blamed on the FO decision to keep Byrnes but the trade itself is all on JB…

So...time for another drink then?

by Wimb on Aug 13, 2008 5:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Man

I suck at speeeeeling :(

So...time for another drink then?

by Wimb on Aug 13, 2008 5:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I completely agree.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Aug 13, 2008 9:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

With the Byrnes deal,

Q would have just languished in AAA for another 3 years, where he had nothing left to prove. Trading him to another organization where his future wasn’t blocked was the best thing possible for him.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 10:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

With all due respect...

Screw him. The question is, what was the best thing possible for the team? I’m pretty sure tossing a 40-HR hitter away for a no-name A-ball player isn’t it. While the Byrnes trade may have meant he did not have an obvious spot at that point, we would then have had some depth in case of injuries and/or suckage – and we’ve had both from our entire outfield this year.

True, you can’t blame JB for Eric’s extension, but we can blame him for removing all of the depth that we had in the outfield, by basically dumping Hairston and Quentin, and trading away CarGon too. At least in that case, it was a worthwhile trade – but it left us very, very exposed fo any one of the following events, never mind all four:
a) Somebody gets injured
b) Byrnes fails to live up his contract
c) Young’s OBP sits around .300
d) The 20-year old RF struggles against major-league pitching

by Jim McLennan on Aug 13, 2008 11:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Don't worry.

I’m sure JByrnes will have Carlos Quentin nightmares the rest of his life.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 11:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Could be worse

You could have to face Russ Ortiz nightmares ;)

So...time for another drink then?

by Wimb on Aug 13, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

wtf

you gotta be freakin’ kidding me.

Formerly known as VIII

by Mr. Philosophical on Aug 12, 2008 10:27 PM EDT   0 recs

I guess the team hasn't learned.

Quentin, some of the guys for Haren.

The team that disappoints, the Arizona Diamondbacks.

by srdmad on Aug 12, 2008 11:19 PM EDT   0 recs

Are you kidding me?

I don’t care how well the guys we traded for Haren are doing.. Haren is amazing here in Arizona.

And i don’t really care to much for Owings… He was absolutely terrible after his good start, we NEEDED an offensive threat, and so I don’t mind this at all.

by ZonaBacks10 on Aug 12, 2008 11:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah

Haren’s near Cy Young quality this season.

Am I avoiding the subject, or am I doing philosophy?

by kishi on Aug 13, 2008 12:11 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

"near"?

After Webb’s win on Sunday, this is like the very first time Webb’s had a lower ERA than Haren since May or something.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 4:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

BUT WINZ!?>

Knock off the hippie crap, strap on a helmet, and start shooting. This is baseball, Diamondbacks, I want you to storm that beach like it's Normandy!

by soco on Aug 13, 2008 10:24 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, Webb has way more than Haren.

Haren obviously is teh suck. Why did we resign him?? It’s another Russ Ortiz!!!!

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 10:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Webb

would have to eat Adam Dunn before he’d even look sort of like Ortiz.

Knock off the hippie crap, strap on a helmet, and start shooting. This is baseball, Diamondbacks, I want you to storm that beach like it's Normandy!

by soco on Aug 13, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Haren?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You were comparing

Webb to Ortiz? So I was joking he would need to eat Dunn, a pretty hefty dude, to even begin looking like Ortiz? I’m sayin’ he’s fat.

Knock off the hippie crap, strap on a helmet, and start shooting. This is baseball, Diamondbacks, I want you to storm that beach like it's Normandy!

by soco on Aug 13, 2008 11:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think he was comparing Haren to Ortiz.

Which, maybe Haren could take the whole mountain man look and go a bit further to the crazed cannibal out in the woods thing, I guess…

Am I avoiding the subject, or am I doing philosophy?

by kishi on Aug 13, 2008 11:07 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah....

I was comparing Haren to Ortiz.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 11:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Irregardless!

I would assume the comparison holds up either way, but apparently that’s too difficult!

Knock off the hippie crap, strap on a helmet, and start shooting. This is baseball, Diamondbacks, I want you to storm that beach like it's Normandy!

by soco on Aug 13, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

But you were wrong!

This had to be pointed out!!

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 12:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

But you can't

bridge the gap? Oh no, this is unpossible!

Knock off the hippie crap, strap on a helmet, and start shooting. This is baseball, Diamondbacks, I want you to storm that beach like it's Normandy!

by soco on Aug 13, 2008 12:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Of course I could.

But the more important goal was to show that you misinterpreted my post, severely damaging your SnakePit street cred.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 12:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Easy Mac Triple Cheese

score!

Knock off the hippie crap, strap on a helmet, and start shooting. This is baseball, Diamondbacks, I want you to storm that beach like it's Normandy!

by soco on Aug 13, 2008 12:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He has Snakepit street cred?

Am I avoiding the subject, or am I doing philosophy?

by kishi on Aug 13, 2008 1:44 PM EDT