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Around SBN: Defend That, Digger! The Overrated/underrated edition

Barry Bonds?

Eric Byrnes is back on the DL and, if previous severe hamstring injuries can be any indication, he may be done for a month or longer.  While the current plan appears to be putting Conor Jackson in left and Chad Tracy at 1st, I'm concerned about Tracy's ever-falling stats to this point.  I know he basically didn't have a spring training, but how long can we wait around for him to maybe figure it out.

Barry Bonds is on the FA market and his agent has publically stated that he would not only accept a league minimum deal, but he would donate all money to buy tickets for kids to come to games.

So, my question is a simple one.  I'm not asking if Barry should be signed.  Feel free to give reasons why he should or shouldn't be signed, but for the poll I'm much more interested in what you would do if he was?

Poll
As a Diamondbacks fan, how would you react if the Diamondbacks signed Barry Bonds?
I would boycott the team for as long as he was on the team.
24 votes
I would boycott the team forever.
0 votes
I would be happy to have an offensive threat for the rest of the season
49 votes
I wouldn't care one way or the other. If Eric Byrnes isn't playing, I don't watch.
0 votes
I'm a media tool, so I'd have to wait and see how Gambo feels about it.
2 votes

75 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 214 comments

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Defense

I know the first knock is going to be defense, so consider this: In 2007, Bonds had a RZR of .831. That’s Carlos Lee, Josh Willingham, Luis Gonzalez country. Below average, though better than Adam Dunn, Raul Ibanez, and Pat Burrell. Conor Jackson is sitting at a .750 so far. (Chris Burke at 1.000… that can’t be right).

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 9:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's only because

Burke has played so few games at left giving him less opportunity’s to screw up.

by dbacksfan01 on Jul 2, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

CoJack

has a .750 in LF, or overall?

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In LF

LF

He’s even worse at 1B so far.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes,

but doesn’t EVERYONE have a lower RZR at 1B compared to the OF? It’s partly the nature of the positions….

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can he still hit the ball?

That’s all I care about right now.

by IndyDBack on Jul 2, 2008 11:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well

Zips, in October of last year, predicted this line: .256/.456/.518 with 22 HR in 309 AB.
Marcel: .257/.421/.488 with 23 HR in 377 AB
Bill James: .284/.494/.634 with 31 HR in 320 AB

The average line there would be .265/.457/.546… I think that’d be ok.

I’m not sure on any of the 3 systems being park adjusted.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Park adjusted" possibly being important words, there.

Barry absolutely CRUSHES the ball at Chase—if he hadn’t played for the Giants, he’d be well beyond 800 by now, and challenging the career record for pro homers.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who is that guy

That Japanese players that is the pro leader in career homeruns?

by dbacksfan01 on Jul 2, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sadaharu Oh?

Had to check Wiki to be sure of the spelling of his first name. Sure ‘nuff:

The all-time, verified professional baseball record for home runs is held by Sadaharu Oh, a former player and manager of the Yomiuri Giants and current manager of the Fukuoka Softbank Hawks in Japan’s league which is called Nippon Professional Baseball. Oh holds the all-time home run world record, having hit 868 home runs in his career.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

.321/.511/.699 in 65 career games. A whole lot of that was against Randy Johnson, pre-Yankees, too.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am totally, all for bringing him to Arizona

Without a doubt in my mind if Josh Byrnes were to sign him it would make up for some of the other f ups he has been accountable for. I mean this would send me flying in the air if we were to sign the third greatest hitter of all time, AT LEAGUE MINIMUM.

Problem is no GM wants to pull the trigger on this because they are afraid of the media consequences but it comes to a point now where his impact on the field will out weigh his impact off of it.

Anyways from a statistical point of view Bonds is one of the greatest hitters in the game. Even in his 40’s when guys are usually done his EqA is still in the .300’s every year.

2005 40 yrs. old- .339 EqA
2006 41 yrs. old- .329 EqA
2007 42 yrs. old- .345 EqA

Note that EqA has the same exact scale as batting average (.260 is average while anything above .300 is great) and as you can see by this Bonds still had a great year in 07. I think if someone were to sign Bonds I think he would easily post a EqA above .300 and seeing how CoJack is the only regular to have one in the .300’s we could use it badly.

I don’t mind the steroids thing simply because it would be stupid for me to judge and criticize Bonds for doing it when I did not criticize the many on our 01 team or Mark McGwire when he broke the homerun record.

by dbacksfan01 on Jul 2, 2008 11:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I was hesitant

when people first started bringing him up, but when I heard a few days ago that not only was he willing to work for minimum, but give it away too? Come on, this is the easiest decision you could make.

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 11:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention

that we know how much Josh Byrnes likes cheap veterans. Should be a no-brainer.

I’m convinced that another franchise is going to wise up, unfortunately, and grab him.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup
I’m convinced that another franchise is going to wise up, unfortunately, and grab him.

That is why we will not end up with him.

by dbacksfan01 on Jul 2, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Although,

since this year is turning out to not look necessarily like the “win now” year that we all expected, that probably makes it less likely for us. Then again, every contender needs a power threat, and Barry IS that—with a vengeance.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I dunno

We’re still in 1st place and nobody else in this division, save the Dodgers, has a legitimate chance. Our pitching staff is there minus a couple miscues, but wasn’t that how it was in 2001? We had 2 big starters, a decent 3, and a bunch of guys that year too. A little offense and maybe we tip the scales enough to not only make the playoffs, but make some noise in a fairly weak NL (outside of the Cubs).

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

[ every contender needs a power threat ]

On the Red Sox last year, Manny was the sole hitter with more than 21 HR, and he only had three more than Chris Young.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uhm

You mean aside from David Ortiz’ 35 homers?

Also… Mike Lowell hit 21… Ramirez hit 20.

Not to mention Kevin Youkilis and Dustin Pedroia who both had SLG% over .440 and got on base over 38% of the time.

Not a good comparison.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And this is better than the 2007 D-backs how?

We had Young at 32, Byrnes at 21, and Reynolds – in two-thirds of a season – at 17. We also had Jackson and Hudson slugging over .440 and getting on base 37% and 38% of the time. Seems like a good comparison to me.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"We got 21 from Byrnes."

Do you see us getting that kind of production from LF from any non-Barry player?

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No way

CoJack is pretty productive in his PA’s don’t get me wrong, but he isn’t as productive as Bonds, that is for sure.

by dbacksfan01 on Jul 2, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That wasn't the question

It was whether he would be as productive as Byrnes. I think he’ll be rather better.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My mistake

I misread the question…

by dbacksfan01 on Jul 2, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Possibly.

Except for speed and defense. So you’re in favor of…. rather permanently moving CoJack to LF? Starting Tracy at 1B? I’ve advocated for that, but I don’t know what we do vs. lefties….

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two words

Jamie. D’Antona.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I knew

you were lurking, waiting to pimp D’Antona. ;-)

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

:)

It’s too bad he didn’t play last night.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed.

Was hoping he would.

Romero played CF, though. And like I said in the other post, Bonifacio played LF.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shouldn't be a comparison to 2007.

Should be comparing it to 2008. We didn’t win the WS last year. We’re trying to win it this year.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All the players mentioned

Are still here. I specifically excluded the ones Clark hit off the bench.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But since you insist

Season pace, based through the first 84 games:
Reynolds: 33 HR
Young: 25 HR
Drew: 21 HR

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, CY only hit one

all of June….

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess here's my question on this arguement

Who gives a shit about HR totals?

Let’s take a look at a OPS comparison. Red Sox 2007 team OPS – .806.

Diamondbacks 2008 team OPS – .735.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even just a question of power

Red Sox 2007 Team Slugging – .444
Diamondbacks 2008 Team Slugging – .412

Closer, but still lacking.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Granted,

that’s with a Big Papi as DH, but still….

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point

It’s tough to compare AL to NL.

How about this then… the 2006 Mets had a team OPS of .780… team SLG of .445. Cardinals the same year had an OPS of .769 and a SLG of .431.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And...

The 2006 NL West champion Padres had a team OPS of .748 and an SLG of .416

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a pitching-heavy division.

Not to mention the fact that those Padres didn’t do anything in the postseason AND played in PetCo… and STILL performed better offensively than the 2008 Dbacks.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still higher than our current team

And they got outscored 14-6 in 4 games against the Cardinals to get bounced out of the 1st round.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most obvious case: the 2007 Diamondbacks

.250/.321/.413 for an OPS of .734. Best record in the National League, I need hardly remind you, with a worse OPS.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And do you really think

that we’re going to be able to replicate that feat? I thought our goal was in trying to improve on last year, especially since we’re unlikely to outperform our pythag by as much again. Notably, our pinch hitters aren’t nearly as “clutch” as they were last year.

Oh, yeah. And we’re sitting at .500 right here near the All Star Break. Certainly no home field advantage throughout the playoffs, that’s for sure.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just to remind you

This tangent spun off based on your claim that “every contender needs a power threat.” I think the examples proves otherwise. While it’s nice to have a power threat, you don’t need one.

And not having Home Field advantage was such a problem for Colorado last year… :-(

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, maybe it was an overgeneralization,

but it certainly marks the rule, rather than the exception. Even last year, we at least had Tony Clark, who was pretty much a threat to go deep at any moment.

And I think we need only look at our team’s performance on the road this year to show how important home field can be….

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When we won the WS,

we got 57 homers from Gonzo batting everyday in the 3rd or 4th spot.

Stick with what works.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The power wouldn't be the only advantage Bonds would bring

he would also be on the bases all the time for fear of that power. Sure he wouldn’t be stealing bases, but having someone board in front of CoJack or Reynolds would be nothing but a good thing.

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except

that Melvin would probably bat him 10th or something.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1 Soco

Offensively, Bonds delivers exactly what the Diamondbacks need. We’re talking about a guy with the highest OBP since Ted Williams. Christ, he gets on base more than Ty Cobb!

by Diamondhacks on Jul 2, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And actually,

I would say that Cobb was MUCH more of an A-hole.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hard to deny that

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

Or, to be more accurate:
No. [MP3, not safe for work]

On a whole number of levels. Too many issues.
1) What condition is Bonds in to hit? He hasn’t seen a pitch in nine months, as far as I know.
2) The ongoing legal proceedings. At best, they’ll be a distraction. At worst, he’ll be behind bars.
3) His knees have caused him to miss a total of 216 games over the past three seasons.
4) What impact would Bonds, his barcalounger, flat-screen TV and entourage have in the locker room – and the other players? Every report I’ve seen is that he was utter poison for the Giants.

And then there’s the whole moral question of signing a tax-evading, abusive, lying, steroid-abusing cheat. Oh, alright: “allegedly.”

I think Ben’s poll options above are more than slightly skewed towards his personal biases. I wouldn’t “boycott” the D-backs. But it would certainly and significantly reduce my level of interest in and support for, the team. After a decade of hating Bonds – not just because he’s a Giant, but because I think he is pond-scum – it would basically be impossible to cheer for him.

Frankly, there are more important things than reaching the playoffs this season. If that requires us to hire Bonds, I’d rather not go there.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 1:33 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Au contreau

I counter your mp3 with :48 second mark here. I don’t know about the rest of y’all, but I want to see a Chevy with butterfly doors.

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't have been in favor of it AT ALL....

until our recent offensive disaster. This year might be our last chance to win for a little while, as we’re almost certainly losing O-Dawg.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Soild points

Can’t argue too much with any of them.

I suppose I meant for the first option to lean more towards “I wouldn’t be happy,” but you’re right that an option is missing.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Geez nihil

way to go on this Bonds thing. And here I thought I was stirring the pot with my $4 gas query :-)

by Diamondhacks on Jul 2, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was gonna say that too.

Nice job creating discussion. Mid-day, too.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I claim insanity

Mostly related to me still being upset about last night’s game and reading the after-comments from Randy before I left for work.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What did Randy say?

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cop-outs

"It’s been a month’s worth of poor games," Johnson said. "Obviously, I’m very much aware of that. I’m a little disappointed, obviously. That goes without saying. You just try to regroup and you look forward to your next start."

"Velocity is a luxury," Johnson said. "I don’t have the same velocity. But location is a necessity in pitching, and I haven’t had any of that."

and then Melvin, "That was a really good comeback effort by us," he said. "Came up a little bit short, but not due to the lack of good at-bats."

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the legal preoceedings

Trial isn’t set to begin until March 2nd of next year. I don’t think I’ve seen anything to indicate anything could happen sooner.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's another reason

why I would support this move.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the clubhouse

You could look at this a couple ways. It would be up to Melvin to keep order, that’s for sure. You could also look at it from the angle that winning could hold back some of the poison. There’s also the fact that he’d be a 3 month-ish rental and wouldn’t be putting any sort of stake in the ground.

Who knows what the clubhouse is like right now anyway.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know,

they always talk about clubhouse presences—but look at Kenny Lofton? WS with the Giants, (same thing with Barry) Indians and Braves in the 90s, Cubs in 2003, Yankees in ‘04, etc. Doesn’t seem to have stopped those teams.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder what kind of shape he's in

Let’s see… he’d give us instant offense, we wouldn’t have to give up anything for him, he wouldn’t cost us anything, we could probably unload him at the end of the season or sooner if he didn’t work out, he would free up some other names as trade possibilities.

The problem is, what if it works? Would we want him to be the hero who delivers us? Could we stand up on our chair and cheer for this guy? Headline: Bonds’ Blast in 10th Lifts D’backs to game 6. Look at the character of our championship team: those are names you look back on with pride, guys you could pull for. I agree with Jim – I won’t disown the club, but it will definitely take some of the joy out of it. Maybe it isn’t win at any price. There’s a reason he’s roaming free on the market. In the end, you get what you pay for.

by aricat on Jul 2, 2008 1:45 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Look at the character of the World Series team

okay, here’s some guys from that team:

Matt Williams
Randy Johnson, not exactly a friendly guy especially towards the media.
Luis Gonzalez, a lot of people look at his 2001 powerfest with suspicion.

Of course, Bonds seemlessly blends these qualities together to make him easier to dislike, but the 2001 team wasn’t a bunch of saints either.

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 1:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I have a hard time equating Luis Gonzalez with Barry Bonds

in the character department. But maybe that’s just me. There’s also a difference between Johnson’s aloofness and Bonds’ apparent contempt for the human race…imo

by aricat on Jul 2, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No definitely not

my point was more that the two things people seem to use as reasons to dislike the man (beyond ‘Skins, he gets to use the Scum Devil card) are because he used steroids and generally acts like an ass to the media. Well, sure we’ve never had a guy who was all of that rolled into one, but the Diamondbacks were certainly not free of either of those two qualities.

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

#3

His clubhouse comportment.

by aricat on Jul 2, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey.

Anyone who beats up Jeff Kent can’t be ALL bad.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Legitimate concern

in terms of an entitled attitude influencing younger players, but at this stage – right now- I dont think Barry presents a grave or singular danger in that regard. How much leverage does a guy have who’s willing to play for nothing? Cant we just let him go if things dont work out?

We’ve seen Randy’s clubhouse comportment “improve” as his career winds down. Why not Barry? He’s been through a helluva lot lately and is reasonably smart – it would seem to be in his interests, on several levels, to be on good behavior here (or anywhere he’s picked up).

If I were Moorad and Kendrick, my concern would be more at the box office than on the field or in the clubhouse. Will people come to see Bonds, or will folks burn season tickets, boycott, etc? Or both?

Personally, I’d love to see Bonds on board, while acknowledging it could get…uh…spirited in the stands and presents some economic risk.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 2, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
If I were Moorad and Kendrick, my concern would be more at the box office than on the field or in the clubhouse. Will people come to see Bonds, or will folks burn season tickets, boycott, etc? Or both?

The franchise that bypassed Josh Byrnes to resign Eric Byrnes is unlikely to make that move…

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It would take guts

to sign him and I dont think it’ll happen, primarily because I doubt the clubs are even genuinely free to acquire him. In any case, Bonds’ involuntary hibernation serves to underscore how major league baseball is more about money than winning.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 2, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

About both

The two are inextricably linked. You’d be trading one season of…exactly what, we don’t really know, for a likely much longer term problem in the shape of antipathy from your local support. It’s not worth it. I think, even at minimum wage, the number of credible suitors is pretty small. Teams with playoff aspirations, who don’t think they can make it with their current roster, and who have a vacancy they need to fill in left field. Not many come to mind.

I kinda like the fact that teams are not willing to sign him. There is a moral line in the sand beyond which franchises are not preparer to step. It’s pretty far out there, but I was beginning to doubt it existed at all, and that Hitler would get an invitation to camp if he could hit the curveball.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and that Hitler would get an invitation to camp if he could hit the curveball.

Again…. Ty Cobb?

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Different era

He was a racist in an era when racism was institutionalized, and also operated in a time where scrutiny of athletes and their behavior was a great deal less stringent. I doubt Babe Ruth would have got away with his indiscretions these days either.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course.

And yeah, of COURSE Hitler was worse than Ty Cobb. Cobb only (possibly) killed one person.

Although, I’m not convinced that Cobb really was in such a different era. Cobb was active as a player and manager from 1909 until 1928. Mein Kampf was published in 1925. Cobb was born in 1886, Hitler in 1889.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Not many come to mind."

Yankees, Red Sox, Twins, Cardinals, and Dodgers all come to mind when I think about it.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

O RLY?

Yankees – LF Johnny Damon – $13m
Red Sox – LF Manny Ramirez – $18.9m
Dodgers – LF Juan Pierre – $8m

Can’t see any of them being benched in favor of Bazza – especially in LA where they have $18m worth of outfielder, in Andruw Jones, already riding the pine (when not on the DL). The Cardinals and the Twins are more likely, but.it’s a very short list.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're killing me.

Yankees… Damon has been hurt on and off… Wilson Betemit has been playing a lot of 1B. That’s a LF and DH opening… for league minimum.
Red Sox… David Ortiz is on the DL and may or may not be there for a while. That opens a DH spot… for league minimum.
Dodgers… Pierre is on the DL with a sprained MCL and could be there for a while. Kemp, Ethier, Young, and Jones have all been disappointments. I see an open LF spot… for league minimum.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In case you hadn't notiched

Bonds hasn’t swung a bat in nine months. It’ll take him at least four weeks to get back to being major-league ready, so you’re talking August at the earliest, even if they signed him tomorrow. Ortiz is expected to be back before then. Damon has played in 79 of 84 games, so if he’s hurt, it’s a lot more “off” than “on”. The Dodgers are about to get Jones back, so he’ll now get an outfield spot. And then there’s the Kent thing…

The “for league minimum” is a red-herring. Few teams have the guts to bench a high-paid player for a cheaper prospect.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dodgers

Had you given a few more seconds of thought, instead of figuring you had me by listing 3 high paid players, you may have remembered, as I just did, that Jeff Kemp would probably launch a decent hissy fit if they brought Bonds in.

There’s an actual situation where clubhouse chemistry can be cited with supporting evidence.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thought of a couple more

The Braves (Greg Norton), Mets (Endy Chavez), A’s (DH/LF platoon of death with Frank Thomas and Jack Cust), and Rangers (Brandon Boggs)

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And, why not

The Giants. Fred Lewis < Barry Bonds, age 50. They’re only 5 games out.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that anyone should be happy

that the MLB is drawing the moral line at Barry Bonds while the Julio Lugos and Alberto Callaspos of the world are still gainfully employed.

I’ll take a allegedly roiding tax cheat over a DUIng wife beater any day.

by dahlian on Jul 2, 2008 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Selective morality rules.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about

Am allegedly roiding tax cheat mistress abuser?

If he was angry with something I would say or upset, he would be very quick to draw his hand back as if to hit me just to see me flinch so that he could laugh about it.
Kimberly Bell
No. Really. Bonds is far, far beyond the likes of Callaspo and Lugo.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't

she try to extort him for money?

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was aware.

But I thought I remember hearing that she tried to get him to pay her hush money, too.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He also refused to give his first wife any alimony when he was making millions because she stayed home cared for their daughters. He said she should have been working.

It's like living with a six-year old.

by 4 Corners Fan on Jul 2, 2008 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good!

A man who values responsibility and self-reliance.

;-)

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His first wife

had also signed a prenup (upheld by the courts) giving up her claim to any share of Bonds’ estate. Bonds did continue to pay her $10,000 in spousal support and $20,000 in child support.

by dahlian on Jul 2, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Assistant Harris County District Attorney Catherine Evans told jurors Mabely Lugo signed a sworn statement that her husband grabbed her by the hair and forced her head into their vehicle at Minute Maid Park and told the same story to nine individuals involved in the case. Mabely Lugo testified Tuesday she had exaggerated the account and that her husband wasn’t trying to harm her.

Evans told jurors during closing arguments Wednesday that it is not uncommon for victims of domestic violence to change their stories.

“She was not happy to be here,’’ Evans said. “She is protective of her husband. She is anxious. She is nervous. I don’t blame her. How sad is it to hear a woman say over and over, ‘I hit myself with the truck. I provoked him. It was my fault.’’’

Link. I disagree. Bonds is only “far, far beyond the likes of Callaspo and Lugo” because of how good he’s been. If he was a slap-hitting middle infielder hardly anyone would bat an eyelash.

by dahlian on Jul 2, 2008 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hard to say

Did Bonds got a pass because of his talent? Or did his actions come under greater scrutiny as a result? Certainlty, with regard to steroids, you could argue the latter is closer to the case, when you consider how many other players have tested positive.

I’m not quite sure where you’re going with the above? At best, it portrays his wife as an unreliable witness, prone to changing her testimony. At worst, she basically made it all up.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 3, 2008 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No.....

at worst, she’s so completely intimidated by Lugo and afraid of him hurting her again, or so delusional that “that’s not the real man. I know it” that she played the normal tune of a beaten woman. “I—I fell. I…. I hit him first.” Etc.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 4, 2008 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"She played the normal tune of a beaten woman."

I’ve decided not to pursue the issue with you or leave any comment, other than to let you know I read your response.

Please ask D-hacks if you need further explanation.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 4, 2008 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

According to the latest police report

before Callaspo’s common law wife was deported, Callaspo knifed her in the face and “threw” their 17 month toddler across the room, smashing his cranium into a headboard.

Bonds is far, far beyond the likes of Callaspo and Lugo.

Care to reconsider, or stubbornly cling to these “curious” moral distinctions?

by Diamondhacks on Jul 3, 2008 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Got a link?

Or is that the “latest” police report from May last year? Which actually says, Callaspo “picked Igor up and threw him back onto the bed, causing Igor to strike his head on the headboard.” Not quite “threw across the room”. Couldn’t find anything to say his wife was deported, and Wikipedia says they are still together. If this was such a cut-and-dried case, why were absolutely no charges pressed?

Care to reconsider, or stubbornly cling to these “curious” exaggerations and half-truths?

by Jim McLennan on Jul 3, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not clinging at all

I’ll gladly stand by the article’s wording – thx for sharing the link I was unable to find – I was going from memory and stand corrected on what amounts to a minor embellishment regarding the headboard. Deportation is a side issue, obviously, and neither of us have the lowdown one way or another – there was considerable discussion about it at the time, as I trust you remember. I also recall Derrick Hall beaming with pride about how his organization “handled” the situation. Great times ;-)

why were absolutely no charges pressed?

I dont know, Jim, but gee, gosh, maybe the fact she was an illegal alien who was either too ignorant or afraid to even call 911, and he was represented by a multimillion dollar enterprise had something to do with it …

Come clean. Do you really feel my exaggerations here are on par with:

Bonds is far, far beyond the likes of Callaspo and Lugo.

That seems to be the thrust of your reply, and I’m genuinely incredulous someone as familiar with the Callaspo situation would honestly believe that.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 3, 2008 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not the same

[ That seems to be the thrust of your reply, and I’m genuinely incredulous someone as familiar with the Callaspo situation would honestly believe that. ]

With Callaspo, we are – as far as you and I know – dealing with a single incident, one apparently deemed not worth pursuing by the authorities [for whatever reason – though I feel it’d take a larger tin-foil hat than mine to think Hall has the power to stop a criminal prosecution].

With Bonds, we have a very well-documented pattern of criminal behavior, in a variety of ways, stretching across the best part of a decade. That’s what makes him worse, in my eyes.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 3, 2008 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jim, after reading this,

I’ve decided not to pursue the issue with you or leave any comment, other than to let you know I read your response.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 4, 2008 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

While the point does entirely escape me, I feel I should reciprocate.

I read your non-commenting comment, pointedly pointing out that you read my comment and saw no point in commenting.

Your turn. Sheesh. We could be here all weekend, . :-)

by Jim McLennan on Jul 4, 2008 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don King called.....

This is more interesting then the heavyweight division right now ;) :)

So...time for another drink then?

by Wimb on Jul 4, 2008 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Glad to find you

in good spirits. I usually dont mind going tooth and nail with you Jim, sometimes I learn something and I hope sometimes you do, but I just dont feel you’re arguing in good faith here.

The Callaspo situation is not “a single incident” and what bothers me is that you know that. The article you were kind enough to link for us makes that abundantly clear, and even without the link, you knew that. You’re not a first time poster on the subject – you’ve chronicled Callaspo’s issues in the past, and you know it is not a single incident.

Yet for the sake of an argument, you’re willing to discount his shortcomings at every turn, which if we were discussing OPS would be one thing, but given the subject matter I find a little unseemly. What will you float next, that Paola is an unreliable witness? Just for the sake of your tenuous position that Bonds is “far far worse” than Callaspo?

The whole comparison is, I suppose, rather silly – online geeks who dont know either player making broad moral comparisons – but in fairness, you’re the one who made the initial assertion. And to watch you twist the most basic facts ( or squawk up my headboard comment ) rather than reassess your own remarks in the least is not my idea of edifying debate.

Even within the adulterous, entitled world of detached professional athletes, I think Barry stands out as an aloof, bitter and calculating individual, and it is with considerable chagrin I find myself “defending” him. But I am put there by people like you, who project such a curious, industrial strength brew of animosity towards the man that they can hardly see straight, or in this case, play fair.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 4, 2008 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Much as I am tempted to respond with...

“I’ve decided not to pursue the issue with you or leave any comment, other than to let you know I read your response.” However…

Domestic violence is a huge can of worms. It’s difficult to remain balanced without making it seem that you are apologizing for or siding with wife-beaters.

But, the truth is, there is little here to hang our condemnation on beyond a bout of, “He said, she said.” Am I claiming Callaspo is the poor victim of a vengeful harpy? No. But I think – and the police seem to agree – that there simply isn’t enough evidence to convict him, or even go to court. That’s the crucial difference here.

Compare and contrast Bonds, where the objective evidence of his wrongdoing, in a variety of ways. is so overwhelming as to preclude just about any protestations of innocence. I doubt his own mother (if she is still alive) believes Bazza these days. If both men are guilty of everything that’s been claimed, then sure, both stand entirely worthy of condemnation. However, I am a great deal more confident that’s closer to the case with Bonds, than Callaspo. You may be happy to lob the blanket of condemnation over anyone the police have ever spoken to, but I require a higher standard of evidence. I’m sorry that you view this as not playing “fair”.

And I have to add, that your “selective recall”, shall we say, of the police report does, I think, say a great deal about your [understandable and common] biases regarding this situation. However, unlike you, I won’t use a flimsy pretext to make accusations of twisting “the basic facts”. Neither you, nor I, know what the facts were in the Callaspo case – only he and she do -, and it seems presumptuous to claim otherwise.

Happy Fourth of July.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 4, 2008 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Neither you, nor I, know what the facts were in the Callaspo case – only he and she do -, and it seems presumptuous to claim otherwise.

Neither you nor I know the facts in the Bonds case – only he does – and it seems presumptuous to claim otherwise. Oh wait, we do know a few selected facts, thx to Bonds’ rights being violated when his grand jury testimony was leaked to the public. How cool is dat!

But I think – and the police seem to agree – that there simply isn’t enough evidence to convict [Callaspo], or even go to court. That’s the crucial difference here.Compare and contrast Bonds, where the objective evidence of his wrongdoing, in a variety of ways, is so overwhelming as to preclude just about any protestations of innocence.

See, I dont think that’s the crucial difference here by a longshot. Just because Callaspo skates by with anger mngmnt classes and Bonds is indicted by a federal grand jury, doesnt make Bonds more worthy of contempt in my view. Even Bonds’ subjective thirty year record of shitty relationships and being an asshat is more compelling to me than that. But since the prospect of legal proceedings seems to carry great weight with you in terms of judging the morality of others, let’s look at this “overwhelming objective evidence” against Bonds.

In his twenty year career, the authority charged with ensuring the integrity of competition and regulating all player’s professional behavior has tested Bonds for steroids on multiple occasions. Sum of positive tests? Zero. Nada. Zippo. Yeah, the objective evidence is overwhelming alright. After baseball proved utterly incapable of providing a level playing field for Barry Bonds (or anyone else), the Feds stepped in, raided a private lab, and they think they found a positive test, that the head of the lab, Victor Conte, insists is not a positive test. The Buick-sized noggin’? Fine, but is that any more compelling than the abrasions on Marianny Paola’s face? To me it’s not.

Look, I dont need a trial to know Bonds is a liar and used PEDs any more than I need a jury to tell me Callaspo slaps his wife around on a semi-regular basis. Precisely because I dont know all the facts, I tend to place more weight on the nature of the crimes than on whether a scared alien spouse manages to buck the legal system to somehow “validate” her abuse with a conviction, or whether Barry gets hard time for jumping on the PED bandwagon during the second half of his singular career and lying about it to a different group of people than everyone else was lying about it to for twenty years. ( FWIW, most people say the outcome of the Bonds’ trial wont alter their opinion of Barry one whit, which if nothing else reflects an alarming lack of moral authority wielded by our legal system .)

If both men are guilty of everything that’s been claimed, then sure, both stand entirely worthy of condemnation. However, I am a great deal more confident that’s closer to the case with Bonds, than Callaspo.

Come now. It’s been claimed Callaspo attacked his wife, yet judicious Jim, prudently waiting to assimilate all the facts before casting judgement, appears to be the last human with doubts about the abuse. Are you still clinging to your ‘single incident’ fiction, or have you moved on to “Well, it’s only he said/ she said”? Sorry, but you’ve been pooh-poohing this whole Callaspo situation non stop.

What’s Bonds accused of? Gosh. Destroying our national pastime is as good a place to start as any. He’s been vilified for using PEDs more harshly than any other player, including those with confirmed positive tests, and countless others who’ve deceived the public throughout their careers – many of whom are still actively playing as we speak. He’s routinely accused of being a clubhouse cancer despite the fact players often rate him as one of the most sought after teammates in the sport. Cheating on his taxes (thanks for your valuable input, IRS expert Schilling). Humiliating cluhouse personnel with his dirty laundry and being mean to (gasp!) reporters. Next thing you know, the Dark Prince will barge into Basha’s Express Lane with more than twelve items. Even his still posture and expressionless visage while taking pitches has become fodder for his reflexive army of critics.

Do you honestly believe Bonds deserves this disproportional onslaught of cultural mob hatred more than Callaspo is due a simple presumption of guilt for abusing his wife?

You may be happy to lob the blanket of condemnation over anyone the police have ever spoken to, but I require a higher standard of evidence.

Where is it? You really dont, Jim. That’s exactly what you’re doing with Bonds. You’ve already convicted your very own axis of evil of all the above and more. I’ve “convicted” him in my mind too, but no moreso than a hundred other jackasses from Roger Clemens to Pete Rose and countless other PED users the feds didnt bother to build a case around.

And I have to add, that your "selective recall", shall we say, of the police report does, I think, say a great deal about your [understandable and common] biases regarding this situation.

I referred to my selective recall as a “minor embellishment”. Keyword: embellishment. Not error. Embellishment. I have biases and am aware they crop up from time to time when I’m advocating a position. Are you? I think your positions or feelings about Bonds are within the vast mainstream, and you’re entitled to them – but that doesnt make them objective, consistent or just.

Happy Fourth of July

Same to you.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 5, 2008 4:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have we veered a little off track?

The question was how would you react if Bonds was on the team? Jim provided 4 reasons why he would disapprove of Bonds being on the team, and then, as an addendum, mentioned that there are reasons not to like or respect him (I presume) as a person, the “moral question” regarding his character. The bizarre counter-argument to that seems to be, well, hey, look at all the other SOB’s around the league - so-and-so was arrested for assault - why pick on Barry, to which obvious response #1 is, I don’t necessarily want them on the team either, or obvious response #2, what does someone else’s possible conduct have to do with my evaluation of Barry…taking everything we know, I deem Barry to be someone I wouldn’t want to be on the team, and someone who, as a person, I would have trouble embracing. So apparently does every team in baseball.
Anyway, I’m not sure I want to get into the fray here too much, but I think we’ve lost sight of the forest a little.

by aricat on Jul 5, 2008 6:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

we’ve veered, but multiple questions have been raised.

Just because I personally feel Barry would be a cool addition, I’m not trying to convince Jim, or anyone else, that they should embrace Barry or that he’s a good person. Guy’s been a creep, I’ve said so many times, and Jim makes a credible case he’s “worse” than Callaspo.

That said, on top of that if you will, I also feel Bonds is routinely stamped with a unique sort of unredeemable character status by many, that I find erroneous, unfortunate and sometimes ugly.

I would approach your rhetorical question “What does someone else’s possible conduct have to do with my evaluation of Barry?” by saying ” a great deal”, depending on what we’re evaluating.

In terms of the original question, I agree, not much. A fan doesnt want “that kind of player” on the team. You make an excellent point.

But when an influential poster (and terrifiic writer, btw) throws stuff around that Player x is “far, far worse” morally, than players y and z who beat up their families, I think it’s time to stop, take a breath and take stock of what we’re really talking about.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 5, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

enjoying watching from the sidelines

lines like this will keep me coming back! ;)

Next thing you know, the Dark Prince will barge into Basha’s Express Lane with more than twelve items.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Jul 5, 2008 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And, now, the big reveal

[ Oh wait, we do know a few selected facts, ]

A few? Well, I guess we should expect your 300-page, meticulously-researched book detailing L’Affair Callaspo, any day now? Or haven’t you read Game of Shadows? ‘Cos I have. If you think that all we have for Bonds is “a few selected facts,” then you think denial is a river in Egypt.

[ Just because Callaspo skates by with anger mngmnt classes ]

Got a link? Because I couldn’t find any evidence Callaspo was ever ordered to attend any such classes, or even did so of his own volition. And, frankly, given your poor track record, I don’t believe just your say-so, and think you could well be distorting, sorry, “embellishing” things again.

[ Jim, prudently waiting to assimilate all the facts before casting judgement, appears to be the last human with doubts about the abuse. ]

Oh, just me and the entire Phoenix police department and prosecutors, who didn’t even take the case to trial. But Hacks knows the truth. He is the guardian of “the basic facts.” He was actually there and saw what happened! Hacks knows all! Hacks sees all!

[ What’s Bonds accused of? ]

First, on the tax front, if you think the evidence is limited to Curt’s blog, you might want to think again.

But I guess you also missed this little “basic fact,” which I figure it’s time to let you in on.

Bonds was arrested for grabbing his wife around the neck, throwing her at a car and then allegedly kicking her while she was on the ground? (The charges were dropped after Bonds’ wife refused to cooperate with prosecutors.

Oops. So, basically, on top of everything else, Bonds is as “guilty” as Callaspo [quotes used advisedly] of domestic violence. Now, can you find me reliable evidence that Callaspo took steroids for a decade and cheated on his taxes? If you do, you might conceivably have an argument that Callaspo is somehow worse.

Otherwise, I think this debate is now over.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 5, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Since you asked

a specific, pointed question, please allow me to respond. Then, since it’s your blog, I’ll respectively drop it.

[ Just because Callaspo skates by with anger mngmnt classes ]

Got a link? Because I couldn’t find any evidence Callaspo was ever ordered to attend any such classes, or even did so of his own volition.

Here’s a detailed perspective about the Callaspo situation from a thoughtful Diamondbacks diehard who’s far less contentious about the new ownership than I am. It’s a little long, but I encourage anyone interested in a third perspective to read it.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 5, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will point out

That the piece refers to “counseling,” not “anger management classes”. But, as mentioned, I’m certainly happy to consider the debate well and truly over. It’s been…emotional. :-)

by Jim McLennan on Jul 5, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Scum Devil....

Then again, maybe coming to play for the Dbacks will be a bit of a homecoming for him.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok there are a lot of jerks in baseball

Bonds is without question one of the worst, but he’s also been demonized relentlessly by the media, and made a scapegoat by baseball. So where’s the problem? Set aside all the hysteria, and he’s a quick fix to our greatest deficiency. TO was supposed to be a quarterback killer, and he’s turned out ok…

I just can’t accept that rationalization so easily. There are a lot of shrewd owners out there who could use a few or 40 homeruns for free. You don’t think every discussion forum in the country, along with every ownership group, hasn’t had this same debate? In the final analysis, when they’ve weighed the risk-reward ratio connected with Bonds, they’ve all turned away.

They’re all that timid of the negative PR? Whatever happened to the adage there’s no such thing as bad publicity? Bonds wouldn’t create a boycott, he’d create a boom of ticket sales.

They’re that worried about the nobility of the game being besmirched by Bonds’ name on their roster? Doubtfully.

The only explanation, unless we’re all much smarter than they are, or unless there’s a conspiracy, is that they’re worried about the health of their team, and the chemistry that separates winning from losing with Bonds as part of the equation.

Maybe it’s worth the risk, but you can’t simply dismiss that risk as unreal. For my part, I want my team to win, but, as much as possible, I also want to like my team, and the personalities on it. Would I exchange a WS win for one bad apple? I’d rather exhaust a few other possibilities first. We have some tradeable commodities.

by aricat on Jul 2, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think the owners much care about chemistry

alleged “team killers” get signed all the time, the main thing that seperates them out is if they can play or not. TO continues to play becauase he’s largely worth it.

I think there are two lynchpins to him being signed: his impending legal troubles, and potential hurt at the box office. The Diamondbacks have had enough trouble getting people in the stands at the time that they may be gunshy to do anything that even hints at destroying any goodwill they’ve managed to earn.

Giants fans supported him because he saved their franchise nearly single handedly, but I doubt he is much welcome there anymore. Would Diamondbacks fans love him if he helped us?

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think the cheers would outweigh the boos...

...until he hit his first walkoff homer.

Barry might draw some transplanted Giants fans, and maybe just people interested in seeing a living legend try to smack the $x%x* out of the baseball. Granted, aside from batting him 10th, BoMel would probably make him bunt every time someone was on base….

Anyway, heck—even John Rocker ended up playing in New York.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the other hand

Rocker wasn’t considered both the best player of his generation, and the worst person. He only qualified for the latter.

The fans will hate him, that’s a given, and probably even if he helped turn around the team. To me, though, it’s worth a shot, especially since he wants to play for free.

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

especially since he wants to play for free.

Would be nice if RJ had the same idea….. :-(

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Respectfully,

I disagree with all of your points. Owners do care about chemistry. It goes back to the risk-reward consideration. In the case of TO, his talent combined with the makeup of the team and coaching staff outweighed the risk that he would detonate the clubhouse. In the case of Bonds, his potential contributions on the field are apparently outweighed in the minds of owners by the baggage he brings with him into the locker room.

Someone pointed out that Bonds’ legal troubles shouldn’t be an issue this year.

And, love him or hate him, I strongly suspect people will pay to see Barry take his 5 ABs.

by aricat on Jul 2, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Owners do care about chemistry

Any argument either way on that thought is pure speculation.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I speculate that owners want their team to succeed

and that team chemistry is a factor in a team’s success.

by aricat on Jul 2, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As is OPS.

And runs scored. And RBIs.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I speculate

that team chemistry can be important but is too fluid of a thing to assume that a guy that did poorly in one place will do it everywhere. See: the 2005 White Sox.

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Misplaced?

I can see the GM caring about the chemistry… the owner wants wins and profits.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On some level

I agree it comes down to risk reward for the owners, and chemistry is certainly in the mix somewhere, but you’ve elevated the chemistry angle while giving lip service to collusion – done at one’s own peril when dealing with MLB ;-)

Consider Oakland. Bay area, predominantly black city, predominantly white “moneyball” season ticket holders, terrible attendance. How would Barry fit in there, on the field (OPS) and off it (revenue)? Do you honestly believe Oakland’s owners so fear Barry’s clubhouse influence as to prevent his acquisition? By a financially strapped franchise – for league minimum?

I dont. I’m sure they consider chemistry, but to assume this is the identical or similar showstopper for thirty independent clubs seems far less plausible to me than the notion MLB has categorically precluded it’s member clubs from negotiating with Bonds. Independent entities, with varied needs and management styles, tend to make independent (varied) decisions and central authorities are more likely to explain such copycat behavior, imo.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 2, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think that his clubhouse comportment is the sum total of his downside.

On the contrary, I think the upside is largely wishful thinking. Let’s eliminate the chemistry problem, and make the colossal assumption that Barry would get along ok with everyone, not be the clubhouse poison he’s reputed to be, and that the scandals surrounding him wouldn’t be a major distraction to his team.

Let’s further decide that, even though he’s not the most likable person on the planet, and is baseball’s human asterisk, that we could live with that and cheer him on for the greater cause of the Dbacks winning some more games.

We then have to make the final leap of faith, which is that his offensive production could actually put us over the hump, or even make a significant difference to the team. He’s 44, a growing liability in the outfield, most likely out of shape, injury prone, and he hit .248 after the allstar game last year. That’s who’s going to put us over the top?

I wonder if Shaq can swing a bat?

I think there’s more on the market that we could acquire without the enormous risk involved with Barry, and it might even be someone we could like. The reason I attribute much of the reluctance to sign Barry on his negative impact on the team is that otherwise more teams certainly might take a look at him to see if he can contribute offensively.

by aricat on Jul 2, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This argument makes no sense

“he hit .248 after the allstar game last year”

With a .426 OBP and .526 SLG, which equates to a .952 OPS.

Even if you regress that 10%... which is huge, it’s an .856 OPS. That puts him right in between Jackson and Reynolds.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We then have to make the final leap of faith, which is that his offensive production could actually put us over the hump, or even make a significant difference to the team.

No leap required, really, based on Bonds’ consistently overwhelming credentials and projected league minimum salary. In terms of the risk he presents to the club on the field, it’s virtually nil, considering no one at this stage envisions Barry as anything more than a part time, high leverage hitter. I’m afraid you are leaping solo here.

I think there’s more on the market that we could acquire without the enormous risk involved with Barry

Every player presents risks, but in Barry’s case we disagree as to what those risks are. A franchise’s biggest concern with him, in my eyes, is that (especially in Phoenix) there are likely more fans like you and Jim, who hate Barry’s guts, than there are people like me, who dont. That’s an important consideration I’m not discounting. But on the field, there’s no free agent out there who could reasonably be expected to provide Bonds’ offensive spark at minimum salary. Nobody even close. There are certainly some guys who cost more and present less off the field risk – and I agree they could be better overall fits for the business side of the Phoenix franchise.

I wonder if Shaq can swing a bat?

About as relevant as Randy Johnson or Rachel Ray’s batting skills, but still a step up from Jim’s Hitler reference :-)

Also, in your exaggerated effort to disparage Bonds, you managed to entirely sidestep the collusion issue.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 2, 2008 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What collusion issue?

Why is it so hard to believe that no-one wants to employ Bonds?

by Jim McLennan on Jul 2, 2008 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because surly s.o.b.s with legal troubles,

the clubhouse cancer stigma and a quarter of Bonds’ talent still find work all the time.

by dahlian on Jul 2, 2008 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you

To be fair, Bonds evokes a unique level of antipathy among many fans, and that’s relevant in the cost benefit analysis, but the idea that thirty clubs independently made thirty independent decisions not to take a flyer on the greatest hitter since Ted Williams for major league minimum is less plausible, in my view, than the idea that MLB (not the individual clubs, but MLB HQ) concluded that employing Bonds at this time is not in the best interests (read: financial interests) of the game.

MLB wants Bonds out of the game, and I suspect the union isnt eager to defend Bonds in the court of public opinion, which they’d be in a position to do if Selig were to publicly ban Bonds. Both powers that be, MLB & the union, prefer Bonds just go away…quietly. But it’s a results-oriented logic that dangles Bonds unemployment as “proof” that all thirty clubs vying for wins must uniformly feel the same way.

It’s like when the boss orders steaks all around for the company picnic, nobody says anything, and he concludes,”See, I told you nobody likes chicken.”

by Diamondhacks on Jul 2, 2008 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"the greatest hitter since Ted Williams"

Also happens to be the most-hated man in the sport, by a very, very long way. Our admittedly unscientific poll suggest the D-backs would lose 1/.3 of their fanbase by hiring him. It seems reasonable and self-evident to me that the risks for any team pretty much outweigh the rewards. No conspiracy theories needed – I don’t see Roger Clemens working either, so is he similarly blacklisted?

But put bluntly, I wouldn’t hire Bonds to clean my toilet, even if he was the finest toilet-cleaner in the history of sanitation.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 3, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The most hated man in the sport

By you.

Your hate has been documented and you using it as a repeated response to every argument grows really tiresome.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 3, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

You can stick your head in the sand if you like

And think that signing him here would lead to a series of Everyone Loves Barry. But the reality is radically different. Feel free to suggest signing Bonds on any other team’s site, and see if the reaction is any less violent. You think that’s not a key reason as to why he is still unemployed? If he isn’t the most hated player in baseball, who would you say was?

If you’d actually read my original response, you’d see that my personal feelings about him were the fifth reason I suggested as to why signing him would be a bad idea. But hey, why let any facts get in the way of your Bazza-lovefest? :-)

by Jim McLennan on Jul 3, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair

I wouldn’t call the response here very violent.

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 3, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Hilarious

The only violent reaction I see here is from you. You’re putting words into my mouth with the rest of the argument.

I tend to lean towards hacks’ side and suggest that collusion is why he’s not employed.

The player I hate the most in baseball is Roger Clemens.

“If you’d actually read my original response…”

More putting words into my mouth (or.. taking them out… I don’t know). I read and responded to your “facts”, one of which was completely incorrect. Some of what you consider to be facts are what a lot of people would consider to be opinions.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 3, 2008 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Your hate has been documented and you using it as a repeated response to every argument

That was your quote, trying to make it sound like that’s all I have said. But in my original reply to your view that he should be signed, I included a number of issues that had nothing to do with my personal distaste for Bonds. To which your reply was actually “Solid points. Can’t argue too much with any of them.” So much for the ‘repeated response to every argument’ claim you make.

From what I can see, the only “fact” you corrected was that the trial doesn’t start until March. Er, except I didn’t actually mention the trial, but – intentionally – only the “legal proceedings” being at best a distraction. Or do you think Bonds is only concerned about the actual trial, and is happy and carefree until he has to attend court?

I note you also entirely sidestepped my question. I didn’t ask who you hate most in baseball. I asked who you thought was the MOST HATED man in baseball. Not the same thing at all.

by Jim McLennan on Jul 3, 2008 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm done

Ignoring the span of time between comments and the comments you made in that span of time, you’re correct. I’m an idiot.

I didn’t answer your question because I don’t have anything to base it off of. I don’t think a majority of baseball fans hates any specific player or person. Hell… Bug Selig may be the most hated man in baseball for all I know. It’s been a while since I ran a poll.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 7, 2008 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting

http://www.azsnakepit.com/2008/1/9/185156/3296

Bonds was listed #1 on 6 of the 14 lists. I had him listed #4.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 7, 2008 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's a fair to compare Bonds and Clemens (in baseball terms)

Roger has made it pretty clear he’s in retirement (taking up his personal services contract with the Astro’s)

On the other hand Barry has made it clear all season long he wants a job.

In such circumstances I think it’s a bit difficult to link the two cases together, though that’s not to say, 1 or both are ‘blacklisted’

So...time for another drink then?

by Wimb on Jul 4, 2008 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't follow

I think it’s perfectly fair. Clemens deceived baseball fans and baseball teams for years… earning gigantic contracts and culling a following of millions of adults and children alike that looked up to him as someone to idolize and replicate. Then, as we all find out, all of that was just as false as Bonds’ allegedly was. Make your arguments against Bonds, but I don’t see any former teammates ratting him out in Congress.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 7, 2008 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You mis-understand me

I’m not talking from a moral or cheating standpoint.

I meant from a potential signing point of view. Clemens hasn’t been saying ‘nobody will sign me I want to play’ On the otherhand Barry (or his agent at least) are begging anybody to take him.

Therefore it’s alot easier for teams to ignore Clemens as it seems he wants to be ignored.

So...time for another drink then?

by Wimb on Jul 8, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also happens to be the most-hated man in the sport, by a very, very long way.

I did say ” Bonds evokes a unique level of antipathy among many fans, and that’s relevant in the cost benefit analysis” but that obviously didnt go far, far, far enough for you ;-)

A third of our fan base? What is that – like twenty people? C’mon, we wouldnt lose a third or anything close – only Jerry Colangelo is capable of that [cough]

[rimshot]

First of all, as you observed, nihil’s poll options are somewhat limited. If there was an option ” I really dont like Bonds much, but it wouldnt significantly affect my support for the team”, I’m guessing the boycott claims would be lower. As it stands, almost 2/3 are glad to have his offensive power on our side. Just for fun, run a poll and see how many fans would be that happy to acquire Raul Ibanez :-)

It seems reasonable and self-evident to me that the risks for any team pretty much outweigh the rewards.

To be clear, I have some genuine off the field concerns bringing him to Phoenix, specifically, but nihil’s already shredded your crackerjack team-by- team “analysis” . No sense piling on there.

is [Clemens] similarly blacklisted?

I wouldnt be surprised. It seems like a fair assumption MLB doesnt want him pitching right now. Dont know Roger’s contractual requirements and I suspect he’s maybe not as attractive a pickup as Bonds, but teams are always looking for pitching, right?

I wouldn’t hire Bonds to clean my toilet

Hah. I dont believe that for a second :-)

by Diamondhacks on Jul 3, 2008 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sort of a tangent

but since Jim kind of jumped on the idea that “the best hitter since Ted Williams also happens to be the most-hated man in the sport, by a very, very long way” (which I really dont fundamentally disagree with), I wanted to share this fairly famous quote about Williams from esteemed historian, Bill James for added perspective to the discussion:

This may be hard for a younger fan to understand, but Ted Williams was every bit as unpopular, in his time, as Albert Belle is now. In baseball today there are there players who are cheered in every park – Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn, and Ken Griffey Jr. – and about the same number who are booed in every park, led by Belle and John Rocker. Ted Williams was despised everywhere in the American League, including Boston for at least the first half of his career. He took constant actions to reinforce that relationship. He splattered water coolers, including glass ones. He made obscene gestures at fans, carried on decades-long vendettas against selected reporters, sometimes didn’t treat his family well, sometimes didn’t hustle or even make any show of hustling in the field or on the bases, was obsessed with his own success, was contemptuous of coaches and some managers, and alternated, in his dealings with the fans, between rugged charm and uncharted rudeness. “When Ted’s name is announced,” wrote Austin Lake, “the sound is like the autumn wind moaning through an apple orchard.”

by Diamondhacks on Jul 4, 2008 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking the same thing, actually....

Ted Williams is often best described as …. well, grouchier than Randy Johnson waking up to find pranksters have clipped his mullet.

Tens of thousands of fans booed Roger Freaking Maris in 1961, too…

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 4, 2008 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And yet...

In spite of Ted’s character flaws, he was a Marine Corps pilot who twice interrupted his MLB career to serve his country’s needs during wartime. He lost 3 years during WWII (1943 – 1945) and most of 1952 and 1953 during the Korean War. Think Pat Tillman 60 years early. I have a difficult time imagining Barry caring that much about anything other than Barry.

by TAP on Jul 4, 2008 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barry enlisting

might make a good SNL skit, but I cant imagine it either :-)

The Tillman reference however, is respectfully, a bit of a reach. Yeah, they both risked their lives and it’s important to acknowledge that, but the cultural expectations placed on Williams and Tillman were enormously different. Unlike some of his superstar peers (Feller, Greenberg), Ted did not immediately volunteer for service,and indeed requested a deferment, which became the source of considerable public debate as to his character. He received all sorts of cultural “pressure” incl letters from schoolchildren, encouraging him to enlist!

Great pilot who did his duty, but in terms of a deeply held conviction to serve, I wouldn’t quite put Mr Wiliams in the same category as a contemporary like Feller, or a modern day anachronism like Pat Tillman.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 4, 2008 4:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can’t always extrapolate a player’s stats from a graph. We really don’t know what kind of player Barry is right now. He’s old, beat up, has bum knees, can’t run, and presumably is off the performance enhancers. The leap of faith is that his bat is going to be the difference maker that takes us to the next level. He was on a woeful offensive SF team that didn’t scare anyone even with him in the lineup.

Every player presents risks. Barry just happens to present all of them. We’re not sure what he’s going to do on the field, how things might go in the clubhouse, how the fans will react to him, or what might next beset him off the field. I don’t think I said I hate Barry’s guts, by the way. I said he’s not a likable character guy I can really pull for. The fact that there are other slimes in the league doesn’t change that. The question today is how would we react to Barry.

Shaq was brought in to save the Suns, and was supposed to be the missing piece to the puzzle. There was a similar sort of buzz and expectation surrounding his signing as with this hype over Bonds. Geez.

Conspiracy theories are fun, but not really worth pursuing without a scrap of evidence, do you think?

by aricat on Jul 2, 2008 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Every player presents risks. Barry just happens to present all of them.

Yes. That 400K he’s demanding to give to underpriviledged children must have all the clubs in a financial quandry ;-)

Shaq?

Shaq was exchanged for an All Star caliber forward (Marion) and makes a ton of money. Bonds is in a position to presumably replace or augment a replacement level combo (Burke, Salazar) for petty cash. Shaq and Barry are both old, but to suggest similar on the field risk profiles (which is what you’re now doing) is just silly. Again, I’ll concede there are significant concerns about the fans – especially in some markets.

Let me ask you this. Has any team even worked Barry out? To answer some of those nagging questions you raised about his knees, etc. As far as I know, not one club has. Dont you find it the least bit curious that not a single club has taken it upon themsleves to “test” or “workout” or “interview” a guy who hit 28 homers last year with the highest OBP in the majors (by a sizable margin)?

Conspiracy theories are fun, but not really worth pursuing without a scrap of evidence, do you think?

Let’s see. The clubs colluded on steroid use for twenty years, they colluded on amphetimines for twenty before that. They have a long documented history of colluding on free agent contracts and have lost virtually every relevant lawsuit to the MLPA, which is damn impressive given MLB’s a private enterprise (except when it comes to building their stadiums, of course) and not held to the same level of scrutiny and reporting as public concerns.

If you dont want Bonds to come here, fine, but please dont come across like I’m pulling collusion out of my ass or have some unusual burden of proof on the subject from here in my mother’s basement. Thanks :-).

You didnt say that you hated Barry’s guts – I inferred it from your writing. If it’s not true, I apologize. It’s just that I’ve read so much selectively moralistic invective directed at Bonds over the last couple of years, I’m probably guilty of lumping the motives of the anti-Bonds crowd together, which isnt cool. I hate it when people do it to me, and again I apologize if I’ve mischaracterized your motives on the subject.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 3, 2008 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey diamondhacks

I enjoy the debate – nothing ever personal taken or intended. I don’t know that I can keep up with you hardcore pitters, though. Every time I go back to my computer, it’s like, geez, now I have to try to explain what I meant by that.

I think both sides have taken a reasonable stance in this discussion. The Dbacks need hitting more than anything in the world, and there sits one of this era’s greatest hitters, free of charge.

But it’s not exactly no strings attached, is it? Whatever you think of Bonds, there’s a ton of baggage there, and there’s no way you’re going to avoid all of it and simply reap the benefits of his hitting.

Specifically, I concede the one risk he no longer carries is the financial burden.

Next, he can work out with a team all he wants. That’s not really going to answer many of the questions about his health, his ability, or the controversy he might ultimately bring to the club. Again, I really don’t find it that curious that no one’s taking a hard look. I honestly think that the consensus among those who make such decisions is that while probably this guy can still hit a little, he’s bad news in practically every other way, and simply not worth the gamble of bringing on board while we’re trying to make the playoffs.

You seem to give Barry every benefit of the doubt, but the teams none.

The comparison with Shaq was a loose one to be sure, simply intended to remind us that we have very recently fallen into the trap of pinning our hopes of a championship on someone of legendary stature coming in to save the day, only to be disappointed.

Finally, as I’ve also said, so now I’m repeating myself terribly, I don’t think it’s that odd to want players on your team who you believe in, respect, consider to be classy, all those sorts of things. I took that to be the gist of the original question – how would you react to Bonds in Phoenix? Well, I would react negatively. I want to like my team, not just watch them win.

by aricat on Jul 3, 2008 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also,
TO was supposed to be a quarterback killer, and he’s turned out ok…

You have a call on the other line. Donovan McNabb’s holding.

They’re all that timid of the negative PR? Whatever happened to the adage there’s no such thing as bad publicity? Bonds wouldn’t create a boycott, he’d create a boom of ticket sales.

Well, they DO have to balance a probable boom in walkup sales this year with a possible loss in season tickets next year….

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

McNabb was the QB he killed

not his current club that took the chance on him.

by aricat on Jul 2, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And Jeff Garcia?

TO hasn’t been with the Cowpies for very long. We’ll see.

Especially if he sends Tony Homo down to Mexico during their bye week again.

;-)

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then I guess you agree

how destructive a player can be to a team, and how hard it is for a player to change established patterns?

by aricat on Jul 2, 2008 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course I do, but I don't necessarily think this is the same case.

I mean, the guy DID play for the Giants for over a decade and led them to the WS in ‘02.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Is Barry Bonds really more of an impossibly self centered ass than Curt Schilling? Everyone’s entitled to their opinion on Bonds, of course – I just smell a great deal of selective moralizing going on here.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 2, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

on selective morality. I dislike Barry Bonds as much as the next guy, but he’s been held up for being responsible for all the sins of baseball.

And global laming.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And to a degree

you could argue that Schilling is more of a self-centered ass, because he actively seeks out the media. Bonds is more of a withdrawn, aloof kind of ass.

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does Barry

have his own blog yet?

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorta

http://www.barrybonds.com/

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would not be happy about it, but I wouldn’t boycott the team. That’d just be stupid.

This team is my team, no matter what.

"Evil lurks everywhere, often in plain sight... Can you lurk in plain sight? Or is that just walking?"

by kishi on Jul 2, 2008 4:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wish I could add that to the poll

I apologize to those who would also vote for that option.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I noticed I don’t really have a voting option. =)

No big deal.

"Evil lurks everywhere, often in plain sight... Can you lurk in plain sight? Or is that just walking?"

by kishi on Jul 2, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Besides,

chicks dig the longball. This way we could get more chicks!!

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 4:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Chicks man....

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Finally!

"Evil lurks everywhere, often in plain sight... Can you lurk in plain sight? Or is that just walking?"

by kishi on Jul 2, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love the fact

that both the young married guys immediately responded. ;-)

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well I was quoting The Soup

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

CeeDub

His was the best.

Silent But Deadly Dutch Oven, forever.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 2, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what,

the chicks that are here aren’t good enough for ya?
:-P

Two days later, Eric Byrnes missed three games for excessive crying, and started listening to emo. At the same time, Emily changed her name to emilylovesthedbacksexceptthatloserericbyrnes.

by emilylovesthedbacks on Jul 2, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I prefer quantity AND quality.

And there’s no need for jealousy… ;-)

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow. In just about 8 hrs,

a FanPost has gone over 100 comments.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 2, 2008 4:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And largely on topic!

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 2, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like cheese

Baseball season, when everything becomes right in the world.

by seton hall snake pit on Jul 2, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sign Barry.

As long as you give him a day or two off every week, he will produce more than Brynes or Burke. 276 average last year. A lot better than some of the guys on the team right now.

The talent that is Josh Hamilton.

by srdmad on Jul 3, 2008 2:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Do you have the scars to prove it?

::rimshot::

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 4, 2008 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is exactly my point.

Barry would be better than Burke.

The talent that is Josh Hamilton.

by srdmad on Jul 4, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And the best part is

he’d be free!

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 3, 2008 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

SERIOUSLY.

It’s basically like giving 400 grand to charity…... and oh, by the way, we also pick up the all time home run king, with an OBP over .500 the last few years….

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 4, 2008 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All true

but do we have enough thread to sew “Beelzebub” on the back of his uniform?

That’s my concern.

by Diamondhacks on Jul 4, 2008 4:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That fits

And at this point, what’s five more scarlet letters to Kendrick?

by Diamondhacks on Jul 4, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just had this thought

would I be hated more if I wore The Player’s Chicago jersey, or a Bonds jersey to SnakepitFest?

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 6, 2008 3:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Third choice: You think you could get a jersey with “WIZARD!” on the back?

"Evil lurks everywhere, often in plain sight... Can you lurk in plain sight? Or is that just walking?"

by kishi on Jul 10, 2008 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can I get all three?

By all means hit at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

by soco on Jul 10, 2008 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't stop you

Now, that’s going to be expensive, and you’ll need to justify that money to your wife, so…

"Evil lurks everywhere, often in plain sight... Can you lurk in plain sight? Or is that just walking?"

by kishi on Jul 11, 2008 6:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You mean

one jersey that says “Quenzardonds”?

DFA Chris Burke. Sign Barry Bonds.

by DbacksSkins on Jul 11, 2008 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't hate you

for wearing The Player’s jersey. I still love him. I’d just love it more if he were on OUR team.

DFA Chris Burke. Sign Barry Bonds.

by DbacksSkins on Jul 11, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nick Piecoro has mentioned that possibility. Josh Byrnes is quoted about Bonds:

"He and maybe a couple of others are sort of sitting out there," Byrnes said. "I think it’s a bit of assessing any players’ readiness, then knocking somebody out of the lineup, dollars, etc. I don’t want to talk about him specifically, but, believe me, we’ve considered a lot of options. There is sort of no one obvious option right now, but there are a lot of considerations."

Also, apparently Piecoro is a jinx for Chad Qualls. Well, now we know who to blame it on.

"Evil lurks everywhere, often in plain sight... Can you lurk in plain sight? Or is that just walking?"

by kishi on Jul 9, 2008 4:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Just thought I'd chime in...

I’m not a stathead, and I have no place to comment on any player’s morality, but I’ve started to think about this option for the dbacks. On ESPN’s 1st and 10 this morning, they looked at the Bonds for the Dbacks.

Bonds brings offense that we desperately need. Byrnes is going to be out for probably the rest of the season, and we need someone that can produce and play left field. One of the points that they brought up is that if Bonds were to come back in Arizona, he wouldn’t be the complete focus of everything because we aren’t a rabid sports town- not a huge market. I don’t quite agree with that- there is a rabid sector (hello, azsnakepit!) and I know I am part of it- but they are right. In general, Diamondbacks fans aren’t exactly “rabid,” but I’m not sure how popular that decision would be. Another thing they brought up was whether or not the Dodgers would take him if we didn’t.
As far as his legal problems…I don’t know. That, for me would be the biggest problem. When does the trial start?

So that was pretty jumbled…I’m going to go with I hate the idea, but he could be what we need right now. Worst case scenario- it doesn’t work out, we get rid of him at the end of the season. Best case? He puts us over the top and makes the Diamondbacks World Series contenders.

Two days later, Eric Byrnes missed three games for excessive crying, and started listening to emo. At the same time, Emily changed her name to emilylovesthedbacksexceptthatloserericbyrnes.

by emilylovesthedbacks on Jul 9, 2008 4:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The talk has intensified over the last 24-48 hours

...and if that’s what they’re saying publicly, it makes you wonder what kind of behind the scenes discussion might be going on. I think the chances of the Dbacks acquiring Bonds in the near future have increased somewhat.

I don’t think the worst-case scenario you describe fully encompasses the negative impact Barry COULD have, though. We instantly become known as the Barry Bonds team, if not here, at least nationally. We get not just Barry, but the full accompaniment of his notoreity, his travelling circus, and all the attention is taken away from the players we love, like Upton and Reynolds. You can read through all the posts above to see that there are a number of repercussions that could transpire if we get Barry. I’m not sure I follow the argument that the size of the market, or the emotional investment of our fans, affects how much attention he receives. That takes on a life of its own. I don’t think the average AZ fan will care too much as to Barry’s ultimate fate – if he doesn’t work out, see ya. But he will be the media focus of the team.

But one scenario we haven’t really talked about is the one that falls somewhere in between. That is to say, what if it sort of works out? He comes in and can still hit pretty well, he does make us better offensively, but doesn’t add much of anything else, and some of the sideshow begins to creep in. He was a partial solution, but he didn’t quite make us a contender. What do we do with him next year, as he enters his 46th year and the legal battle looms large? And maybe he’s proven himself enough that now he thinks he can ask for some real compensation. This just isn’t so much of a no-brainer, or Barry would have been snatched up long since. Plus, if he becomes your option, what other options have you chosen not to pursue that could have made you a better team for a longer time, with someone whose wanted poster you aren’t likely to see at the post office?

by aricat on Jul 9, 2008 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trial

doesn’t start until sometime in the spring of next year. I forget when, exactly.

DFA Chris Burke. Sign Barry Bonds.

by DbacksSkins on Jul 11, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Bonds for AZ

According to this report.

The D-backs will not be pursuing free agent slugger Barry Bonds, a source said Wednesday. The club had internal discussions about signing Bonds, who remains unsigned after the Giants elected not to re-sign him following the 2007 season, as it had about several potential free agents and possible trade acquisitions, but decided to move forward…

[Josh Byrnes’] comment, however innocuous, spread quickly and the D-backs were perceived to be serious suitors for the all-time home run leader when, in fact, they had only had a few internal discussions, according to the source. Byrnes explained why he did not flat out deny any interest in Bonds. “I don’t know at any time I’ve commented directly on the pursuit of a player,” he said on Wednesday. “So I don’t know why I’d start now.”

by Jim McLennan on Jul 10, 2008 1:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This story contradicts itself.
The D-backs will not be pursuing free agent slugger Barry Bonds, a source said Wednesday.

I don’t know at any time I’ve commented directly on the pursuit of a player," he said on Wednesday. "So I don’t know why I’d start now."

I read that post 3 times and I don’t see any quotes or anything other than Gilbert taking what his source said and assuming it meant that all of these options were off the table. I think you can just as easily take it the other way as meaning they’re still weighing all of their options and haven’t come to any conclusions.

Fire Bob Melvin. Free Jamie D'Antona. Eric Byrnes Sucks.

by nihil67 on Jul 10, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nevertheless,

it still gives me hope for the Dbacks, even if they only had “internal discussions” regarding Barry.

Mark Reynolds: Turning me gay since '07

by DbacksSkins on Jul 10, 2008 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There.

Signature modified to express my true feelings, even though Jim is gonna be upset.

DFA Chris Burke. Sign Barry Bonds.

by DbacksSkins on Jul 10, 2008 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You *are* aware

I can edit your signature?

Let me think about it for a bit…:-)

by Jim McLennan on Jul 10, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or

can Jenny edit it too?

DFA Chris Burke. Sign Barry Bonds.

by DbacksSkins on Jul 10, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No contradiction

As long as they the source isn’t Josh Byrnes. The source says it isn’t happening. Byrnes continues his usual policy of not commenting directly. Seems pretty clear to me?

by Jim McLennan on Jul 10, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Other sources

seem to pick up the story in the affirmative: for example, here and here.

DFA Chris Burke. Sign Barry Bonds.

by DbacksSkins on Jul 10, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing new there

“The Diamondbacks have had internal discussions regarding free agent Barry Bonds.” I’m with Nick Piecoro: “It’s amazing what some seemingly vague comments about Barry Bonds can do to a nation. That Bonds actually was being talked about by a team – not that a team was talking to him or offering him a deal – became national news, even though the Diamondbacks never moved beyond that stage and, it appears, almost certainly will not.”

by Jim McLennan on Jul 10, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree too.

It was just somewhat amusing the way the national news jumped on it as, “Arizona Diamondbacks Agree to Terms with Barry Bonds”.

DFA Chris Burke. Sign Barry Bonds.

by DbacksSkins on Jul 10, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it was news...

...I think that is how business is conducted by GMs today… they give some sort of non-committal answer in order to test the public’s response. I definitely think the conversations were taking place.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Jul 10, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gotta say

I have been an anti-Barry guy for many, many years, but for some reason I’m warming to this idea. Perhaps it’s because everything seems so tainted now, perhaps it’s because our offense is so dreadful, and definitely because the price tag is so low… anyway, I say sign up Senor Big Head and see what he can do.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Jul 10, 2008 11:04 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

By the way,

first non-GameDay Thread FanPost to go over 200 comments. Bravo, Ben!

DFA Chris Burke. Sign Barry Bonds.

by DbacksSkins on Jul 10, 2008 12:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

My Take

The Arizona Diamondbacks would be moronic not to sign Barry Bonds. There, I said it. First off, I feel like I must address the media frenzy that many anti-Bondsers have been mentioning. Media circus or not, Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter since Babe Ruth. Bonds continue to rake even when he was being booed at every game, and being slammed in the media. We can use sabermetrics to prove my point.

At this point, the DBacks are on pace for 83.3 wins, according to Baseball Prospectus, giving us a 49.15% chance of making the playoffs. If Bonds was signed today, he would probably contribute 2.4 wins above a replacement player, a 1.9 win difference above Chad Tracy, who is estimated to contribute 0.5 wins. BP has found a regular season win to be worth $900,000, which would make Bonds worth $1.805 on regular season contribution alone. However, Bonds would give us a 24% boost in our chances to make the playoffs. Research has shown that a playoff apperance is worth $35 million, so Bonds gives the DBacks $8.4 million by boosting our playoff odds. Add his regular season contribution to his playoff contribution, and Bonds is worth $10.205 million this year!!!! If Josh Byrnes is serious about bringing another World Championship to Arizona, he would go out and sign Bonds.

by LucaMaz3 on Jul 11, 2008 10:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well....

that might be a bit overusing the numbers, but I still agree with signing Barry.

DFA Chris Burke. Sign Barry Bonds.

by DbacksSkins on Jul 11, 2008 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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