Edgar vs. Max et. al.

by foulpole on Jun 14, 2008 1:20 PM EDT Comment 28 comments

Max was sent to Tucson yesterday to make room for Buckner. We needed a fresh arm due to the work load that our 'pen has encountered lately.

Taking into account EdGon's performance and the lack of flexibility that we have due to him being out of options, how much value does he really bring to our club?

We have Buckner, Scherzer, Petit, Peguero among others, that have options and can be rotated between Tucson and the big club. Their YTD performance is at least equal to if not better than EdGon's and the flexibility they allow enables us to keep fresh arms in the 'pen on a regular basis.

If the FO could get anything of value for Edgar, I would advocate trading him. I really don't feel that he'll ever be a highly effective pitcher especially at the BOB.

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If we trade EdGon, we’ll likely get something similar to what we got for Trot Nixon yesterday: a PTBN and cash. In other words: a bag of balls. And of the Buckner, Petit, Peguero, EdGon group, I just might trust EdGon the most, despite his obvious flaws. So, I’d keep him.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Jun 14, 2008 2:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If all we could get for EdGon is indeed ”...a bag of balls…” would that be some indication of his true value?

by foulpole on Jun 14, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And perhaps also the value of the other three… but at least they have options.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on Jun 14, 2008 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

but at least they have options.

IMO, that’s a big plus.

by foulpole on Jun 14, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You dismiss

his role on this team with such utter disdain. I really do not get the beef with Edgar. He has done exactly what I’d expect from the 6th/7th man in rotation. I have no problem keeping him on the roster.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson

by unnamedDBacksfan on Jun 14, 2008 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I really do not get the beef with Edgar.

He’s not a very good pitcher. That’s it.

by foulpole on Jun 14, 2008 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

::sigh::

If nothing else, you certainly ARE stubborn, foulpole….

Max Scherzer is all out of bubblegum.

by DbacksSkins on Jun 14, 2008 3:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

In praise of Gonzalez

A few thoughts on Edgar. Firstly, he’s only 25 years, 3 months old, which is basically the same age as some of the others you mention (Buckner is 24 yrs 10 mo), and a good deal younger than others (Peguero is more than two years older!). He is still getting better, so it’s not the same thing as Nixon, who is 34 and is not heading to the Hall of Fame.

Secondly, we would, quite possibly, need two pitchers to replace EdGon. Since basically leaving the rotation at the end of April, no reliever has given us more innings (19.1, albeit including one start – he then got ten days rest). This includes back-to-back, multiple inning appearances, such as in the Mets series, where he threw 33 and 29 pitches in consecutive games, and back-to-back-to-back games (May 26-28) where he threw 20+ pitches three nights in a row. We haven’t even dared to use Scherzer on less than two days rest so far.

Make no mistake, he won’t win the Cy Young, but his flexibility is certainly valuable. Wednesday’s game in New York was only the second time in 42 relief appearances, over six seasons, he was tagged with the loss – and that was as much Mark Reynolds’ fault as anyone, I’m sure you’ll agree. There are plenty of others in the bullpen who have cost us far more games than Gonzalez [coughQuallscough]. Part of that is certainly due to the situations, but he basically saved Thursday’s game against the Mets.

by Jim McLennan on Jun 14, 2008 6:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

he’s only 25 years, 3 months old,

I don’t put much value on the ages of the guys from Latin American countries. It sure seems that many players have questionable ages over the years so I have a lack of confidence that their record keeping is accurate or can not be manipulated. Livo, Ed Duque, Fernando, Tejada, Alias, etc.

where he threw 33 and 29 pitches in consecutive games, .....(May 26-28) where he threw 20+ pitches three nights in a row.

I don’t feel that throwing 62 pitches in order to get through 3.1 innings…or 77 pitches for 4 innings is a big feather in his cap.

the second time in 42 relief appearances, over six seasons, he was tagged with the loss

Many of his relief appearances are blow out games when he’s not in much of a position to get a win or a loss. BTW, so far this year, he has only had 3 scoreless relief appearances and 5 where the other team scored. BTW, if you’re into stats, this year his BAA is .342 at the BOB and .315 total, his 6.31 ERA and .177 WHIP are the highest on the team. He gives up a ton of home runs and many very loud outs.

But if you want to throw those “positive” arguments out to JB, maybe we could get something of value in a trade? ;-)

by foulpole on Jun 14, 2008 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t put much value on the ages of the guys from Latin American countries.

I put more value in the age of a guy out of Mexico (like EdGon) than a guy from the Dominican or Venezuela.

I don’t feel that throwing 62 pitches in order to get through 3.1 innings…or 77 pitches for 4 innings is a big feather in his cap.

The point, genius, was that he’s our only reliever who can go long—although, in your insatiable hatred for EdGon, it seems you’ve glossed over that.

Max Scherzer is all out of bubblegum.

by DbacksSkins on Jun 14, 2008 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

[ I don’t put much value on the ages of the guys from Latin American countries. ]

So, your preferred pitcher, Jailen Peguero, is probably at least 30, then?

[ I don’t feel that throwing 62 pitches in order to get through 3.1 innings…or 77 pitches for 4 innings is a big feather in his cap. ]

No, but the ability to pitch more than one inning on consecutive days, and still be effective [3.1 innings, zero earned runs; or 4 innings, 2 hits, 2 earned runs] is certainly worth having. Who else in the bullpen has shown themselves capable of doing that? Edgar is a guy who seems to thrive on frequent usage it seems. Here’s his career ERA for relief appearances:

3 or less days rest: 4.29
4+ days rest: 7.41

[ If you’re into stats, this year his BAA is .342 at the BOB and .315 total ]

Interesting how you deride stats as “not true science”, when they’re used against your golden boys, but then cherry-pick numbers when you think they support your point. Of course, you ‘forget’ to mention that Gonzalez’s batting average on balls in play this season is .329, significantly above the National League average of .295, so he has been unlucky. Again, not that I’m trying to claim Gonzalez is an ace, but if you compare him to the mop-up men on other rosters, he’s fine. Per this article, the average #5 starter has an ERA of 6.24 – add in the park factor, and Gonzalez is actually rather better than that.

[ But if you want to throw those "positive" arguments out to JB, maybe we could get something of value in a trade? ;-) ]

Fortunately, JB is the manager, not you. Otherwise, we’d have Tony Clark at first, instead of the best hitter on the team, Justin Upton would be traded away to make room for another “veteran presence” like Eric Byrnes, and our players would be striking out because you think that’s more valuable than getting on base. Looks like we dodged a bullet there. ;-)

by Jim McLennan on Jun 14, 2008 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This made me honestly LOL:

Fortunately, JB is the manager, not you. Otherwise, we’d have Tony Clark at first, instead of the best hitter on the team, Justin Upton would be traded away to make room for another "veteran presence" like Eric Byrnes, and our players would be striking out because you think that’s more valuable than getting on base. Looks like we dodged a bullet there. ;-)

Max Scherzer is all out of bubblegum.

by DbacksSkins on Jun 14, 2008 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So, your preferred pitcher, Jailen Peguero, is probably at least 30, then?

I have no idea how old Peguero is but you seem to have a habit of misquoting me. I said “We have Buckner, Scherzer, Petit, Peguero among others, that have options and can be rotated between Tucson and the big club.”

No, but the ability to pitch more than one inning on consecutive days, and still be effective [3.1 innings, zero earned runs; or 4 innings, 2 hits, 2 earned runs] is certainly worth having. Who else in the bullpen has shown themselves capable of doing that?

Well, we have the four pitchers listed above and possibly some others on the farm. I don’t know how effective they would be at the major league level pitching back to back days but I feel that it is time to give them a shot. Even if they are not effective on consecutive days you could bring up another guy for a spell. Edgar’s ability to pitch poorly on consecutive days doesn’t hold much value to me.

cherry-pick numbers when you think they support your point.

Let’s take a walk down memory lane. When we were talking about DER and the gap between Webby and EdGon, I said there was a big difference between Webby’s and EdGon’s and you replied

Not really so much a difference as you might think, only 7.7% between the best and worst.

Then later in that thread I said “The difference in team DER between the best in the NL, so far this season, based on MLB.com’s numbers…or 4.4”

Then you replied

Or put another way 44 points of batting average on balls in play. Seems a lot more when you look at it that way!

So you were saying that the difference between Webby and Edgon (7.7) was not a big difference yet the 4.4 between the top and bottom NL staffs was?

In this thread you threw out number of pitches per appearance when Edgar is close to 20 pitches per inning like it’s a good thing? That sound like cherry picking much more so then listing ERA, BAA, WHIP and the number of home runs he gives up. I did also state that “if you’re into stats.” I don’t need to look at his stats. I’ve seen him pitch enough to know that hitters consistently square him up and hit his pitches hard.

IMO, Edgar’s BABIP is high because hitters are squaring him up and hitting the ball hard. It’s not so much “bad luck.” And if Edgar is so much better than others out there, then let’s deal him for the haul that we could get for him. We have 4 plus other guys that can all chip in and fill his role, would get some ML exposure and would give us a lot more flexibility. Who knows? One of them could turn out to be a star.

Otherwise, we’d have Tony Clark at first, instead of the best hitter on the team, Justin Upton would be traded away to make room for another "veteran presence" like Eric Byrnes, and our players would be striking out because you think that’s more valuable than getting on base.

These kind of totally off the wall, wild statements make these discussions much less pleasant for me. Not only is this totally unrelated to the topic at hand but is wild speculation and half truths. Does this type of statement make you feel that it somehow places a higher value on your opinion on this topic and somehow undermine mine? This stuff sounds like the Chewbacca defense.

If you would like to have civil discussion then I’m all for it but I’m not really interested in reading this type of “argument.”

by foulpole on Jun 15, 2008 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is very, very amusing.

/>As shown by your deliberate ignoring of perfectly valid posts by others, you are not interested in actual debate, but only the sound of your own voice. I’m getting an increasing number of requests to end your membership here, with the prevailing opinion being that you bring little of benefit to the community.

I’ve resisted this, but my patience with your passive-aggressiveness is growing short. I note that you have already been thrown out of the main independent Diamondbacks forum [DBBP], and I am beginning to understand why. Consider this a formal, public warning. If you want a “civil discussion”, you’re welcome to stay, but your behavior here falls far short of the standards you are demanding from others.

by Jim McLennan on Jun 15, 2008 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I must admit that I was very surprised by your response. Where do I start?

First off, In case that you do decide to boot me then I guess that I’ll begin with a good-bye to those posters that I do appreciate chatting with. Excuse me if I have left anyone out or misspelled their name because I’m going pretty much from memory, listing in no specific order and am sorry if have omitted anyone that I have had a pleasant time chatting with.: claws, jjohn , 4 corners, wimb, twinners, soco, Ms. soco, Azrous, kishi, charmer, diamondhacks, and yes you too jim, etc.

Next I’ll address the “deliberate ignoring” issue.
There is one regular poster on this board who’s posts I used to read for a brief period of time. Two out of the first few posts directed to me that I did read referred to me as “stupid” and “idiotic.” Since I am on the subject, I did make an adjustment to my “iggy policy” when I posted a thread titled Ground Rules and the first several words from that same poster were “If you’re going to play the role of the smug martyr..” I have to admit that is as far as I read on that post.

There is another “regular” that I felt was consistently trying to provoke me. I feel that I was pretty clear that I did not want to go there and informed that person that I was no longer going to respond or read their posts.

A third poster also referred to me as “stupid” regarding a nickname of one of our players. I felt that was a pretty petty issue to call someone “stupid” over so also added that person to my iggy list.

A fourth poster told me to “STFU” after I suggested that she use her self proclaimed title as “slump buster” on a sign because she said that she wanted to get on TV. I honestly felt that, with Gracie in the booth, that that sign would probably do it.

I do not respond well when people call me “stupid”, idiotic” or tell me to “STFU”. To me, those are extremely offensive phrases and I consider them “fighting words.” I don’t come here to fight. I come here to have fun. I would rather concentrate my time on those posters that I do enjoy reading.

There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or “fighting words” those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality. – Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 1942

You also mentioned that I was ”...thrown out of the main independent Diamondbacks forum…” I think that I have addressed this in the past but I’ll again give you my spin on this issue. There was a “mod” ( and many regular posters) on that board that sent me several private messages. That “mod” told me that he did not understand why I was getting picked on excessively and that he also felt that there were at least two “regulars” that got away with verbal bashing that was not allowed by others. He told me to hang in there and to “fight fire with fire.” I threw some stuff back at one of the two posters that he identified and was booted. All well. So, on this new board, instead of “fighting fire with fire” I would rather just let it go and not read the stuff from people that try to provoke me.

A few weeks ago, i took the time to start a thread entitled “Ground Rules” in an attempt to get the temperature of this board, what was and was not acceptable etc.. To be honest, I did not come away from that effort much more informed about what is and is not acceptable on this board.

”...your behavior here falls far short of the standards you are demanding from others.” If there are specific issues that offended you regarding my last post on this thread, please do let me know what those specific issues are. I’m not perfect but I do feel that I generally will tell people when there are specific issues that displease me.

I truly hope that you will not delete this post and respond to it in the same manner as it was intended. As a way to understand not only each other but also what is expected from a member of this “community.”

by foulpole on Jun 17, 2008 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

[ I do not respond well when people call me "stupid", idiotic" or tell me to "STFU". ]

Seems common, doesn’t it? If it happened to me with such frequency, across multiple sites, it would a) lose its impact, and b) cause me to wonder why so many people think of me in such a negative fashion. Maybe it’s not them?

Anyway, sticking my fingers in my ears and humming loudly – or a virtual equivalent thereof – is not going to win friends, influence people or gain me any respect. It also removes any right you have to demand a “civil discussion,” if you act like a spoiled three-year old, and refuse forever to talk to anyone who said a bad thing about you months ago.

This is not a Buckingham Palace tea-party. It’s the Internet. Frankly, some of the things you’ve said ARE stupid and idiotic. But if there’s anyone out there who has never said anything stupid on an Internet forum, it’s likely because they are too busy turning water into wine.

[ You also mentioned that I was "…thrown out of the main independent Diamondbacks forum…" I think that I have addressed this in the past but I’ll again give you my spin on this issue… I threw some stuff back at one of the two posters that he identified and was booted. All well. ]

“Spin” is the right word: are you aware I’m the founder and overall administrator of the DBBP board? So I know exactly why you were banned. You got the boot for giving another poster a “nice cup of shut the fuck up.” While the final straw, this was far from your first transgression, and your baiting of other posters was being discussed by moderators for a full three months before that. So please don’t try and pull the wool over our eyes with fake martyrdom.

[ A few weeks ago, i took the time to start a thread entitled "Ground Rules" in an attempt to get the temperature of this board, what was and was not acceptable etc.. To be honest, I did not come away from that effort much more informed about what is and is not acceptable on this board. ]

I refuse to lay down fixed rules, because that just gives people loopholes through which they can slide, while bleating “You didn’t say I couldn’t.” My sole guideline here is whether a person’s presence, overall, is beneficial or detrimental to the community. Good contributions give you more slack.on the other side of the balance-sheet. But if your posts are mostly tiresome repetitions of the same points [we get it: you don’t like Upton, EdGon and Jackson], and you ignore intelligent, polite attempts to engage in debate about them, what exactly do you bring to the table?

Put simply, if you want others to treat you with respect, then flying off the handle at any comment and creating a permanent blacklist of those perceived as having wronged you, is not the way to go. Personal abuse [as you used on DBBP] or ignoring people completely [as here], are both antagonistic – whether or not your intention. When it comes to handling negative comments, there is a perfectly reasonable middle-ground between these tactics, and most people manage to find it. Until you do too, it’s very hard to see you as a positive contributor to the community.

There. That’s my lunch-break gone. :-(

by Jim McLennan on Jun 17, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But if there’s anyone out there who has never said anything stupid on an Internet forum, it’s likely because they are too busy turning water into wine.

Thanks for the shoutout, Jim. I should also note that I’m available for weddings, quinceneras, and bar mitzvahs.

Have the Dodgers lost yet?

by DbacksSkins on Jun 18, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BTW, I still feel that EdGon is a pretty fungible RHP that no longer has any minor league options. ;-)

by foulpole on Jun 17, 2008 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tired of this... again

You’re wrong on this one, Jim. Go read the thread again. You and DbacksSkins are the ones being passive-aggressive and rude.

foulpole may be a little more vocal about.. well… everything, and perhaps he doesn’t argue well, and maybe some of his ideas are silly… but it’s no excuse for you to threaten people because you don’t like what they have to say or because they don’t back down when you belittle them.

Bob Melvin Sucks

by nihil67 on Jun 17, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

No

Nobody has a right to demand a “civil discussion,” when they refuse to engage in them theirselves.

by Jim McLennan on Jun 17, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Foulpole

Foulpole—I completely respect your right to have a differing opinion, even if they may be unpopular here. In fact, I particularly enjoy reading posts you make, because I like to read the controversy and discussion that they provoke.

I also do not condone any personal attacks on individuals in any forum. Calling people (or even people’s ideas) “stupid” and “idiotic” is infantile, and does not ever promote discussion.

That being said, nearly all of the comments that are made by the people you ignore are not personal attacks, and in fact, are simply fair arguments that would promote discussion on the topic that you bring up.

It seems to me (and again, this is my personal opinion) that most of the ill will directed towards you is centered on the fact that you ignore people who are making valid, non-inflammatory comments in response to things you say. I believe that by responding to their valid points you would find everyone on this site much more receptive to you having your own opinion.

If you find a particular post offensive, then ignore it. As your “Iggy” list grows longer and longer, it significantly hinders the discussion that is possible on the site, which is frustrating for everyone.

I don’t want you to feel like I am arguing against you personally. I think you are entitled to your opinion. But to make this work, I think you, as well as those who will choose to disagree with you, have to be willing to make some changes. Things just can’t continue the way they are going, or we all suffer.

by bcloirao on Jun 17, 2008 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs

Very well said, bc. I still need to digest other parts of this thread but I do feel that you have made some very valid points.

Props!

And recommended.

by foulpole on Jun 17, 2008 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

While I am hesitant to reply to this right now, (as it seems that this issue has grown into a full fledge train wreck) I do have to thank you for your support.

by foulpole on Jun 17, 2008 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's probably been building for some time

Better out than in. Well, I certainly feel better for the venting. :-) To fester is bad, as they say. Reply in entirely your own time!

by Jim McLennan on Jun 17, 2008 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m trying to be clear on my appreciation of support from nihil67 .

Tired of this… again You and DbacksSkins are the ones being passive-aggressive and rude.

How the heck did this thread get from a discussion of our ‘pen to this level? I’m gonna take a break for a little while.

by foulpole on Jun 18, 2008 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And my comment

Was in reply to your description of this as “full fledge train wreck”. I would, however, like to thank you for inspiring the pics which opened today’s Gameday Thread. :-)

by Jim McLennan on Jun 18, 2008 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not really sure

HOW much more passive-aggressive anyone could be than by obviously and visibly making a show out of ignoring somebody…. all because you’re convinced that they were trying to “provoke” you about something 6 weeks ago.

Have the Dodgers lost yet?

by DbacksSkins on Jun 19, 2008 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The sad thing is,

that I actually think Foulpole has something good to contribute to this site as a vocal proponent of a point of view that runs contrary to the greater “norm” of the site. But when you continue to earnestly post your opinions while simply ignoring the counter-arguments of your critics, it drags the site down to a crawl. You only need to read the defense thread to see what it results.

For posterity, my post in the ground rules thread:

1) If you’re going to play the role of the smug martyr – at least be willing to respond to the criticisms of others.

2) Provocative and controversial ideas that run counter to the norms are good, but at least be willing to back them up with logic and/or evidence when they are challenged.

3) Posters who continue to pass their opinions off as facts while ignoring those that make legitimate counter-arguments run the risk of quickly wearing out their welcome.

This is an unofficial list. Jim, of course, has the final say in all matters.

by dahlian on Jun 18, 2008 10:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs