The argument for moving Max to the 'Pen.

by Augie's Army on May 22, 2008 12:58 PM EDT

I, like many on the board thought Mad Max should be optioned to Tucson when Doug Davis returned Friday. On the surface it makes a lot of sense; let him go to Tucson and take the mound every 5th day, while allowing him to improve his command. We keep both Medders & Edgar in the bullpen and life would go on. However the rumor is that Max will stay with the big club and Edgar or Medders gets his walking papers. I think I'm leaning towards Edgar but expect Medders to be the one to go. Does anyone really think that Edgar or Medders are regulars on a championship squad?

So what are the positives of keeping Mad Max at the big league level? Looking for precendents I discovered many good to great starting pitchers who got extended work out of the 'pen in their rookie/early years.

90's

Johan Santana (different case because he was a Rule 5 Pick)

Roy Halladay

Pedro Martinez

Curt Schilling

80's

David Cone

Bob Welch (im starting to stretch)

Way Back

Jim Palmer

Bob Gibson

Looking at these names I am starting to warm up to the thought of Max coming out of the 'pen this year and making a spot start when needed. Earl Weaver was a big fan of letting young pitchers earn their stripes in the bullpen before bringing them into the rotation. If Max gives us a better shot of winning games I am all for him staying with the big league club.

And with Joba moving into the rotation we will have to wait and see what happens.

*I was/am a huge Kent Mercker fan so it killed me leaving him off this list but I can only be so liberal with "good".

ADD- It's official adios Medders

Poll

We know where he's going, but where SHOULD Max Scherzer be?

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One point in favor

Of moving Scherzer to the pen, it that it’d help us keep his innings count down. Presently, he’s at 42.1 innings, between the Sidewinders and Diamondbacks. According to Tom Verducci, Scherzer is likely to be limited to about 150 innings this year [from 118.1 last season]. If we want to keep him potentially available as a starter until the end of the year and hopefully into the playoffs, then it would be best to use him out of the pen, where he would likely get only 50-60 innings the rest of the way. Though that might actually be a bit low – only a hundred or so in total.

by Jim McLennan on May 22, 2008 2:07 PM EDT 0 recs

Hmmm....

Does anyone really think that Edgar or Medders are regulars on a championship squad?

::Thinks back to 2001 team’s bullpen::

Yeah, I COULD see that, actually.

Max Scherzer is all out of bubblegum.

by DbacksSkins on May 22, 2008 2:38 PM EDT 0 recs

See what you mean

The 2001 bullpen included the likes of Troy Browhawn, Erik Sabel and Greg Swindell, a trio who combined for 150 innings at an ERA of 4.61. We also had
Robert Ellis (17 starts at 5.77),
Armando Reynoso (9 starts at 5.98)
Nick Bierbrodt (5 starts at 8.22!).
That adds up to a member of our starting rotation with an ERA of 6.18.

In many ways, the 2001 team over-achieved enormously.

by Jim McLennan on May 22, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up 0 recs

Don't forget

we also had 80 year old Mike Morgan.

Max Scherzer is all out of bubblegum.

by DbacksSkins on May 22, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up 0 recs

And Bobby Witt

I was a huge fan of the Mo-Man though

by Augie's Army on May 22, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up 0 recs

Bob Brenly opines

He caught so much flack for bringing back Kim in game 5, but look at who he had….Troy Brohawn, Mike Morgan, Albie Lopez…....

Please put Eric Byrnes on the DL

by shoewizard on May 22, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up 0 recs

The Immortal Albie Lopez

I had forgotten all about him. Him and Russ Ortiz gotta be the same guy.

by Augie's Army on May 22, 2008 7:03 PM EDT up 0 recs

Albie Lopez, Russ Ortiz, Elmer Dessens

The Immortal Desert Troika of Suck.

by dahlian on May 22, 2008 10:29 PM EDT up 0 recs

Haha.....

I was thinking about the exact same trio….

Max Scherzer is all out of bubblegum.

by DbacksSkins on May 22, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up 0 recs

Secondary Pitches

Is coming out of the bullpen on a first place team really a good way to work on your secondary pitches? I would lean towards sending Max back to Tucson and letting him work on those pitches. Then bring him back up when rosters expand and let him come out of the pen when we only need him for a batter or two – keeps his innings down and he can really mainly on his fastball.

The drawback is if Randy Johnson gets hurt and Sherzer has been starting in Tucson all summer, Max may not have enough innings left in his arm to take RJs spot…

by Craig from Az on May 22, 2008 3:54 PM EDT 0 recs

I really don’t feel very comfortable with Max’s secondary pitches at this point. When he spots it, his fastball is ML ready but can’t we say the same for Medders? The FO knows more about all of our players then I do but I really don’t feel that this is the best use of ether Medders or Max at this point.We are giving up a ML level RP for nothing to bring up a guy that has one ML pitch when he can spot it? I’m a little confused about this move.

Max’s IP can be managed in Tucson. It’s not like we really need to win the PCL. I mean how much is that worth?

by foulpole on May 23, 2008 12:31 AM EDT up 0 recs

You make it sound

like the guy is just barely getting by on the skin of his teeth. He doesn’t have just one ML pitch, he has one all star caliber MLB pitch. He also has some offspeed stuff that is close to being there. Sure, we all want him to learn and get better, but isn’t part of the learning process being challenged and having to respond? How much do you really learn when on raw stuff alone you’re able to strike out 38 batters in 23 innings while giving up only three walks and 12 hits?

And I think that calling Medders an ML level reliever is a bit of a stretch. He’s pretty much the definition of a 12th man in a bullpen and to even compare his stuff “when he spots it” to Scherzer’s is patently absurd.

by dahlian on May 23, 2008 12:48 AM EDT up 0 recs

I don't want to sound too harsh on Medders,

but more than anything else I just don’t think he’s a good fit for this team and Chase Field.

If he was claimed by the Padres and turned into Heath Bell 2.0 I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised. I also would still think that we made the right decision.

by dahlian on May 23, 2008 1:00 AM EDT up 0 recs

Agreed on Medders and Chase Field.

I do feel really bad that this is how he will (probably) be ending his Dbacks career, but this way, he’ll get picked up by a team that needs him more than we do. His tendency towards giving up home runs will be significantly less pronounced at most other parks, and that will help his ERA and performance quite a bit.

Max Scherzer is all out of bubblegum.

by DbacksSkins on May 23, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up 0 recs

I'm with foulpole on this one

Scherzer’s first major-league start – the one where he gave up eight hits in four innings – shows what happens to him when he can only throw the fastball for a strike. There’s absolutely no denying the raw quality of his stuff, but going to Tucson would allow him to, for example, make a start where he only throws breaking balls. Or change-ups. Or whatever is best suited to his development, without worrying about the results. Don’t forget, we’re talking about someone who only has 133 innings of pro ball under his belt.

Certainly, getting him out of the rotation here is a wise move, and if the plan is to turn him onto our future closer, than who cares what his other pitches are like. When hitters only see you once in a game, you don’t need more than a single overpowering pitch. But, as far as I know, the hope is still that he can become a starter, and to do that, you will need more than a blazing fastball, no matter how ‘all-star caliber’ it might be. How is he going to develop that out of the pen, facing maybe ten hitters a week, in the heat of a pennant race? He isn’t. He’s going to go with the best pitch.

As for Medders, as I mentioned in the recap, he has an ERA+ of 132 over his career. I think that’s a good bit better than the 12th man in most bullpens. There was no need to waive Medders: there were alternatives. And I’m unconvinced these weren’t better choices, both for the team and for Scherzer.

by Jim McLennan on May 23, 2008 1:41 AM EDT up 0 recs

I think his 132 ERA+ is deceiving,

it relies heavily on his 1.78 ERA in 2005 and the fact that he’s spent so much time nicked up and in the minors that it’s never fully regressed, Simply put, he’s not the pitcher he was in 2005 that struck out over a batter an inning and gave up only two home runs.

Since 2006 his ERA to xFip is
3.64 – 5.00
4.30 – 5.61
4.58 – 5.90

Even during 2007 in AAA he put up a 4.69 ERA with 1.65 WHIP in 48 innings. I think he’s a fringy reliever that has to hope that his fly balls don’t turn into home runs. In Chase Field I don’t think this is likely to happen so I don’t mind him leaving. If push came to shove and (knock on wood) we’re able to go a month or two without any injuries in the rotation, he could always be sent down again to continue starting. We’d be out Medders, but by then hopefully someone among the Fruto, Pegeuro group figures it out and starts throwing strikes. At the very least, I think Petit would be a capable replacement. Guys like Medders aren’t the type of players that you go out of your way to keep on the roster.

That being said, I do think that this was a bit of a wasted roster move. Feel free to insert whatever beating a dead horse icon you feel necessary as I wonder again why the hell we’re DFAing Medders when he isn’t anywhere close to being the most useless person on the roster? Especially when the aforementioned wasted roster spot still has options. At the very least we’d be able to bide some time until Tracy’s activation.

by dahlian on May 23, 2008 2:05 AM EDT up 0 recs

Also,

If DFAing Medders is the move that frees up a 40 man spot for Nixon in anticipation of a DL trip for Byrnes – then I will be as giddy as a schoolgirl.

by dahlian on May 23, 2008 2:51 AM EDT up 0 recs

Sad to say.. +1

So...time for another drink then?

by Wimb on May 23, 2008 7:14 AM EDT up 0 recs

Good God, I hope this is the case.

Free Trot Nixon!!

Max Scherzer is all out of bubblegum.

by DbacksSkins on May 23, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up 0 recs

Mop up duty in a ten run game and he threw pretty much all fastballs. I really don’t see how that helps his development.

by foulpole on May 23, 2008 10:19 PM EDT up 0 recs

Is this where I say "neener neener neener"?

Medders clears waivers, remains with DBacks

by dahlian on May 30, 2008 6:55 PM EDT up 0 recs

Scherzer currently has the lowest ERA of any of our starters....

....and you’re not comfortable with his secondary pitches? (Yeah yeah yeah, small sample size and all that, but still)

Max Scherzer is all out of bubblegum.

by DbacksSkins on May 23, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up 0 recs

I’m very surprised that Medders cleared waivers. I still do feel that it would be best for Max to spend more time in AAA. He really could use the work on his secondary pitches.

by foulpole on Jun 4, 2008 1:01 AM EDT up 0 recs