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Alternatives to Hudson

If we do not resign Hudson what would we do at second base? Would it end up being Benafacio's job to lose or do we give Jamie D'Antona a chance to switch over from third and have a go at it. He's hitting really really well for the Sidewinders right now. What do you all think? Can D'Antona make the switch? I think it would make a very interesting spring. extra word

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Burke? Wouldn’t he be in the running there? Or am I missing something about his contract? Must I say that he reminds me a smidge of a certain former player named Craig?

by Counsellmember on May 10, 2008 11:25 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t think most of us are pleased enough with Burke (batting .137 this season) to give him the time of day, let alone a consideration at a starting job.

"Look, I'm not a financial expert or anything, but I'm pretty sure that a zeppelin is an excellent investment opportunity."

by kishi on May 11, 2008 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mark Ellis.

The white Orlando Hudson.

With a lesser bat.

by dahlian on May 11, 2008 4:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Somebody in a different post suggested moving Reynolds to 2nd, so Tracy could play 3rd.

I like that, but I don’t know if Reynolds has enough speed to play 2nd, so I would let Bonifacio or D’Antona play 2nd. As with Burke, what the hell are you thinking.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 11, 2008 4:10 PM EDT reply actions  

well I had thought about that

didn’t Reynolds play second for a bit?

Baseball season, when everything becomes right in the world.

by seton hall snake pit on May 11, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

With a lesser bat???

Ellis career 100 OPS+, last year 110, with 19 HR playing his home games in OAKLAND

Hudson career 98 OPS, last year 103, with 10 HR playing his home games in CHASE

Ellis is a better hitter than Hudson, by a small margin.

Hudson is a better fielder than Ellis, by a small margin.

Ellis is actually a year older than Hudson though, so if we are going to be consistent about our thoughts regarding the longevity of 2nd baseman, you have to have the same concerns about Ellis.

If Ellis is signable on say a 2 year deal for about 16 million, then I would do it. But if it takes a 3 yr. deal, or more than 8 million a year, I wouldn’t. He is not that big of a secret, and anyway, Billy Beane may extend him a couple of years anyway.

I think we better root for Bonafacio to take a Giant leap forward. He is going to be the secondbaseman of this team next year, barring a surprising move by management. Then again, overpaying with too much money for too long a period of time is something that could very well happen…......................we’ve seen it happen before.

by shoewizard on May 11, 2008 4:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Hudson is a "sure thing"

Ellis is extremely inconsistent.

With his age getting up there I have less faith that Ellis’ 110+ OPS+ seasons will out number his

If he’s asking for 100 OPS+, GG 2Bman money I would pass – I wouldn’t be confident in him putting up much more than a 95 OPS+ in his age 32 and 33 seasons.

If I weren’t on betting tilt against you, I’d try to make this interesting. As it is I’m still kicking myself for not putting up stakes last off season when I wanted the team to look into trading CJ and making Q a first baseman. I love CJ’s eye, but I’ve always thought that Q would end up being a better over all hitter.

by dahlian on May 11, 2008 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll take that bet

CJ ends up with better OPS+.........

by shoewizard on May 11, 2008 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't tell if this offer

is motivated by pity, machismo or faustian precognition.

It’s one of those bets that seems so easy that there has to be some kind of catch. Do you really think the league is going to adjust to Quentin that much? Do you not see a similar catching up period with CoJack? Is there some strange league factor with OPS+ that I’m unaware of? Is it underrating CoJack because of some hot starts by NL hitters while at the same time overrating Quentin because some AL hitters have gotten off to slower start?

If you’re really willing to bet that CJ will outhit Q by 21 points of OPS+ from hereon out, I’d be a sucker not to take the bet. Just be warned, that dirt poor grad students with questionable job prospects are notoriously cheap bettors. Last bet I made was for hand-knitted iPod cozies; I’ve always been a fan of embarassment-based bets than monetary ones.

And a warning – I’m not a very good knitter.

by dahlian on May 12, 2008 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you might be right.

I was just looking at his pitch data summary at baseball reference. . His entire profile has undergone a stunning change. It’s like he’s a completely different hitter than he ever was, either in the majors or minors.

He is taking the first pitch much more, and his contact rate is up. His profile still suggests a free swinger, but not as extreme as before. If he can maintain this approach, the pitchers will have a harder time adjusting to him.

by shoewizard on May 13, 2008 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Never underestimate

the capacity of a bum shoulder and Kevin Seitzer to #### with a young hitter at the plate.

I remember you talking at length during the off-season about how much better the kids hit after he left. It was strange that no one ever brought it up in regards to Q’s struggles.

Of course, I owe it to The Shadow on dbbp to even realize this.

by dahlian on May 13, 2008 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wish him well

Did you ever see the Mojo channel production of “The Show”.

It was especially poignant that this program aired last year during the middle of his struggles. One of the happiest memories I’ve had at Chase post 2001 was being in the left field bleachers the night of his major league debut when he hit a homerun. That was a great feeling, after having followed him so long.

Of course bittersweet seeing his current success come elsewhere. It wasn’t supposed to be this way. Yet another lesson for everyone, myself included, about the need to be ultra patient with young players. They are not all going to pan out of course, but when you get a guy that has a great pedigree and track record coming up, you don’t cut bait after just 324 Plate Appearances.

by shoewizard on May 13, 2008 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I do dig the Q

I have always been a Q fan since his days on the Farm. I always expected big things from him and glad he is getting a chance to shine even if it is in Chicago.

by Augie's Army on May 13, 2008 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

IMO, E Bone is not the answer at the lead off spot. He can’t hit a ball out of a wet paper bag and hardly ever walks.

by foulpole on May 11, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's steals bases like no other.

And you can always work on hitting and taking walks. Look at Upton and Young.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 11, 2008 6:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, yeah but how long do we wait? And, E Bone is no J-Up or CY. Not even close.

by foulpole on May 11, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then why did they call him up last year when Hudson went down?

If he’s as bad as you guys think he is, then why didn’t we go with Augie from start.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 11, 2008 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was called up on September 1, 2007

also known as when rosters expand.

When you can have 40 people on your bench it doesn’t hurt to carry an all-glove, no-hit speedster. That he started on occasion says more about the team’s faith in Augie than it does in the abilities of Mr. Bonifacio.

by dahlian on May 11, 2008 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Expanded roster call up.

by foulpole on May 11, 2008 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Huh?!?

It’s not hard to find someone fast that can steal bases.

It is extremely hard to find someone that can hit major league pitching.

by dahlian on May 11, 2008 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not a big fan of moving a AAA 3b into the staring roll as a ML 2b so I would not support the D’Antona option.

We have enough defensive weaknesses already and at the BOB we can’t be giving up many extra outs, bases and runs.

We have a lot of inconsistant young guys in the batting order and should we really add another one?

I'm thinking that O-Dawg is a pretty big compliment to the squad that we have with our weaknesses at D and our inconsistant O.

by foulpole on May 11, 2008 6:56 PM EDT reply actions  

weaknesses at D and inconsistant O.

by foulpole on May 11, 2008 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that the team should keep Hudson,

unfortunately management already gave his money to your boy, Byrnsie.

by dahlian on May 11, 2008 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, we currently have both Webby and Haren tied up for a few years and many of our other guys as well. When are we gonna make a run at it all? Or are we gonna keep “developing” players and never have what it takes to get over the top?

See: Oakland Athpedics.

by foulpole on May 11, 2008 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, we currently have both Webby and Haren tied up for a few years and many of our other guys as well. When are we gonna make a run at it all? Or are we gonna keep “developing” players and never have what it takes to get over the top?

See: Oakland Athpedics.

by foulpole on May 11, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we'll make a run at it all

when the team finally commits to winning and stops making personnel decisions on the basis of public relations.

So, 2011.

by dahlian on May 11, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like our chances THIS year

a whole lot better if we held onto the “developing” Q instead of your boy Byrnes.

by Augie's Army on May 13, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

...your boy Byrnes.

What does that mean?

by foulpole on May 13, 2008 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

All quite on the Hudson front.

We have been giving up a lot of free runs so far this season and it has cost us some wins. Without O-Dawgs defensive production it could be a lot worse.

With the current weeknesses that our team has on D, does that make O-Dawg any more valuable to us over the next couple years?

by foulpole on May 8, 2008 5:54 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

http://www.azsnakepit.com/2008/5/1/470883/no-progress-on-new-deal-fo

by foulpole on May 11, 2008 7:11 PM EDT reply actions  

The reality of Hudson is this:

We would ALL like to see him here another couple of years.

The question is simply cost.

Is the cost to have him the next two years ALSO being stuck with him the two years after that, when he is almost certain to be in decline?

Is the cost to have him the next two years a 4 yr, 40 million contract?

We all want Hudson to stay. But many of us would stop short of saying they should keep Hudson AT ANY COST.

Tough spot for the organization to be in.

by shoewizard on May 11, 2008 8:14 PM EDT reply actions  

So, how have we been doing without O-Dawg in our starting lineup this last week or so?

3-5 I think?

by foulpole on May 11, 2008 7:55 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

http://www.azsnakepit.com/2008/5/1/470883/no-progress-on-new-deal-fo

by foulpole on May 11, 2008 10:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Good point

O-Dawg wouldn’t have let Byrnes hit .108 in the month of May, and would have stopped Cruz from giving up that home run this afternoon.

"Look, I'm not a financial expert or anything, but I'm pretty sure that a zeppelin is an excellent investment opportunity."

by kishi on May 12, 2008 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not to mention

Augie Ojeda since May 3rd:

7 G, 27 PA, 11 for 23, 2 Doubles, a Triple, 7 RBI, .478/.519/.652

No errors at second base.

Although I do think I saw a popup he didn’t get to Orlando probably would have had. ;)

by shoewizard on May 12, 2008 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

O-Dawg wouldn’t have let Byrnes hit .108 in the month of May, and would have stopped Cruz from giving up that home run this afternoon.

So, Byrnes and Cruz are responsible for our recent record?

by foulpole on May 12, 2008 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, they’re among the various factors that have led to losses, yet would be entirely unaffected by Orlando Hudson’s presence on the field.

Augie has put out an excellent showing on the field, and, if you look at the batting stats for the month of May, Augie is pretty much only trailing Chris Snyder in most categories. I don’t understand how you can look at what numbers he has put up, and tell me that Orlando Hudson would be surpassing them right now.

You can’t point at one or two people and say “that’s why we’re losing” because it’s spread across a lot of players right now. But if I was trying to get this team back on track, “getting Augie Ojeda off the field” would be pretty low on my list of priorities.

"Look, I'm not a financial expert or anything, but I'm pretty sure that a zeppelin is an excellent investment opportunity."

by kishi on May 12, 2008 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, we are now 2-0 since O-Dawg came back. That’s what the stats show. So the stats have to be right, no? ;-)

by foulpole on May 15, 2008 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

diamondback.scout.com seems to like this guy.

Bonifacio is the best pure lead off hitter in the Diamondbacks organization, and he appears to be getting better. After an ‘04 campaign in which he stole 40 bases in 50 tries, but struck out 122 times in less than 500 at bats, and posted an on base percentage of just .306, the Diamondbacks sent him right back to Lo-A South Bend and asked him to come back in ‘05 ready to put the bat on the ball. The result: a .341 OBP, 32 fewer Ks in 111 more at bats, and 51 stolen bases.
Second Baseman Emilio Bonifacio profiles as the best overall prospect among the six Diamondbacks called up when the major league rosters expanded. With probably the best speed and infield range in the entire Arizona organization, Bonifacio serves as a fantastic late-inning role player now, and should be the team’s second baseman of the future.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 12, 2008 6:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I like EBone

I really want to give him the shot at the majors he’s slowly earning, the problem is we’ve had too many prospects working out recently. Eventually we’re going to have another monster flop. I feel like we’re due for one. I want insurance if he doesn’t pan out. I think if we switch D’Antona over to second in the minors next year and maybe get him nipping at EBone’s heels it’ll help him out and make me feel more comfortable. Just a thought

Baseball season, when everything becomes right in the world.

by seton hall snake pit on May 12, 2008 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't it weird that everyone now says we should have kept Q and let go of Brynes.

I don’t remember anyone saying that last year.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 13, 2008 5:30 PM EDT reply actions  

your memory isn't very good, then

Shoewizard, Jim, Nihil, and myself were all on the anti-contract bandwagon… very vocally.

"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck

by njjohn on May 13, 2008 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I may have been too depressed by the move to post,

but on the day of the contract signing I called into the Gambo and Ash show and specifically said that this was nothing but a “p.r. signing” and would join the likes of Moorad’s Shawn Green and Russ Ortiz contracts by the time it was over.

Heh, my call was heard by the DBBP people. Apparently, I sounded a little a nervous.

by dahlian on May 13, 2008 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

For information

Here’s the post announcing the contract. Some of the statements there and in the comments look positively Nostradamus-esque now.

by Jim McLennan on May 13, 2008 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you have any links to Nippert, Hairston or Andy Green threads?

by foulpole on May 14, 2008 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did those guys get 3 yr. 30 million contracts?

Some player evaluation mistakes are bigger than others.

by shoewizard on May 14, 2008 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

And the deal on Nippert

was that I thought he’d be better than Medders.

Big Deal

They both stink

They both make league minimum.

DOH!

by shoewizard on May 14, 2008 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I see.

And I’m sure you guys predicted that Q and Brynes would be having the season that they are having. Does value outside of the stat sheet mean nothing.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 13, 2008 11:02 PM EDT reply actions  

I predicted that Q

would be a better player this year than Byrnes. Every healthy year of his baseball career he’s put up offensive production just about on par with CJ while being a decent-ranged right fielder with a rocket arm. I thought that Byrnes was fungible fourth outfielder that only needed a small drop in his skill set to go from above average to albatross.

How much value do you really think Byrnes offers beyond the stat sheets? If you want some veteran presence then I think the F.O. should have given Byrnes’ money to another team leader – one whom we don’t already have a capable replacement making the league minimum. That person would of course be Orlando Hudson.

Of course Hudson isn’t a beach-blonde, scrappy, white guy who crashes into walls, does flips in the field and stars in his own t.v. show – so how valuable can his non-stat sheet production be?

by dahlian on May 13, 2008 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then look at it this way,

how much value outside of the stat sheet did Luis Gonzalez bring us when the 2004 team lost 111 games? Had he still been on the 2007 team, would he have willed them to the world series on pure grit and hustle?

If you’re good and the team wins, you’re a good clubhouse guy. Winning creates loose clubhouses, just ask the Rockies, Mariners and a host of other teams that had “great clubhouse unity” last year.

And boy, if the this front office thought Byrnes’ off-field intangibles were worth $10 million dollars, then think of how much leadership and winning attitude Russ Ortiz brought to this team!

by dahlian on May 14, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ortiz was brought in to win games, not be the leader.

As far as Gonzalez. He sucks now.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 14, 2008 11:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Gonzo

is putting up a better line than Byrnes though the playing time is more limited.

by AZSEAfan on May 16, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who is hurt.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 20, 2008 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I find it amusing

How every single thread now turns into a debate about Eric Byrnes :(

by Wimb on May 15, 2008 7:28 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

yeah it's gotten that bad

Baseball season, when everything becomes right in the world.

by seton hall snake pit on May 15, 2008 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

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