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Rocky Mountain Hi

Everybody here should know by now that I can be long winded, so the length of my following reply to Jim's Praising Arizona piece at Purple Row should come as no surprise. I want to say that I really like the squad the Diamondbacks have put together this year, it's going to be a heck of a struggle to win the division for any team, but I think somebody might be a little too quick in writing off the defending NL champs. Let's start off with this:

Colorado are largely seen outside the state as a mediocre team who got incandescently hot for about three weeks. Whether fair or not, their presence in the playoffs is thought of as a quirk, a once-in-a-lifetime miracle provided by the God widely reported [accurately or not] as occupying the corner locker in the home team's dressing-room at Coors. Certainly, looking back at the standings, for the first five and half months, the Rockies were the fourth-best team in the division. At the end of play on September 17th - that's after 92% of the season was completed for Colorado - they were six games back.

See, this would be a great point if it were actually true most of the time, but the fact is that runs such as the Rockies twenty-one out of twenty-two game winning stretch in 2007 -and there have been similar comebacks in baseball history- almost always happen when a team is in a multiple season success cycle. It's incredibly rare for mediocre teams to put together such streaks. I want to bring up a couple of examples here, the 1984 Royals for instance, were at 40-50 on July 17 but came back with a furious run to startle the Twins and Angels to win the AL West. I bring these Royals up because Jim pointed them out on this site earlier in the offseason in looking at other teams that won their divisions with negative run differentials. He also gleaned that the D-backs of 2007 didn't have a lot in common with them. Using Jim's standards of comparison, guess which team in the NL West is actually very similar to that Royals squad? What did Kansas City do the year after that, Jim? I can't remember, or maybe I can and I'm just being a smart-ass brat.

Let's go to another one: the 1964 Cardinals were pretty much a .500 team for the first half of the season. By September 20, they were a bit above that, but were still six and a half games out of the playoffs. They came back, of course, and made it into the playoffs. While the Dodgers would win the pennant the next two seasons, largely the same Cardinals squad would come back to win the two after that. I bring them up, because in a list of the greatest comebacks since the modern era, the Rockies seem to most closely resemble them as a team. The team ages are similar, both were led by a 22 year old rookie who provided offense in a defensive first position (catcher Tim McCarver for them) and a guy on the left side that might not have been quite worthy of the MVP -third basemen Ken Boyer actually won it. That '64 Cards team had an OPS+ of 101 and an ERA+ of 111, the Rockies of 2007 had an OPS+ of 103, and an ERA+ of 111.

Now the D-backs may very well play the role of that '65-'66 Dodgers squad to the Rockies for the next season or two, but don't think for a second that a strong run at the end means that a team is a one hit wonder. Almost always you'll find another pennant season close by when you look them up. BTW, if you want a comp that I really hope the Rockies follow in the footsteps of, check out what the 1891 Boston Beaneaters did in their last twenty-two games, and also look at what they did the two seasons following.

What startled me is that the Rockies devoted their time, energy and no considerable amount of money to signing Troy Tulowitzki - who was not going anywhere until the end of 2012 anyway - and signed him to the biggest contract ever for a player with his (lack of) experience. Especially one who batted an anemic .256 away from Coors, and whose average in Denver was bloated by a freakish .372 BABIP at home. At the time of writing, Baseball-Reference.com reckons the most similar hitter to Tulo is Bill DeLancey. Who? Exactly. If that's the case, I'd say the Colorado locking themselves in to a $30+ million contract seems a little premature. Still, not my money.

Tulo's high Coors Field BABIP is more likely a sign of high skill rather than luck. Over his career, Troy Tulowitzki has now put up a .370 BABIP in Coors. Only three Rockies players have had higher success rates in as many PA's and it's no coincidence that they are three of the greatest hitters to ever put on a Rockies uniform: Matt Holliday (.386), Andres Gallaraga (.378) and Larry Walker (.375). If you look at Holliday's early career in a Rockies uniform, he showed much of the same drastic tendency to put up freakishly high numbers in Denver and middling or worse numbers on the road. After watching this team for fourteen seasons, I've come to understand home BABIP to be a sign of a Rockies player's legitimacy. Vinny Castilla (.330), Neifi Perez (.333) and others who've also benefited from playing in altitude just didn't have that extra umph in their home stats. Tulo's in a different class, as was mentioned in the comments to this at Purple Row, Delancey was actually a prime catching prospect who's career was derailed by TB, his own most similar players at Baseball Reference include Russell Martin and Hall of Famer Gabby Hartnett (most similar at age 23) not exactly the scrub he's made out to be by the off the cuff comment.

If I were a Rockies fan, I'd be miffed that management hadn't seen fit to shore up a pitching staff which appears reliant upon Ubaldo Jimenez being the second coming of Nolan Ryan. I mean: Jeff Francis as your Opening Day starter? He'd be the #4 in Arizona. RoxGirl and I have already debated the longer-term future of the two franchises, and both look more than averagely bright, as the prospects which they hold should keep them in good stead down the line. However, as far as 2008 is concerned, the Diamondbacks seem to have a much better chance of repeating their triumphs, than the Rockies have of repeating theirs.
Frankly, the Rockies season will hinge on how close our pitching staff will be able to keep us to the Dodgers and Diamondbacks, and possibly the Padres if Mark Prior and Randy Wolf are healthy (ha! right!). There's plenty of reason to be skeptical that we have the guns. Peavy, Webb, Penny, Haren, Cain and Young all are better than Francis, and so long as he's healthy, a case can be made that RJ is as well. The only reason that none of this would matter is if somehow the Rockies lineup was able to mitigate the success of these aces, and if our own meager pitchers were able to step up when going head to head:

Rockies offense against the NL West, 2007: 4.78 runs per game
Rockies pitchers against the NL West, 2007: 4.34 runs per game.

That latter figure is equal to the runs allowed average of the Dodgers against the rest of the NL West and just a tick behind the Giants' 4.33. The Padres led the division at 4.12 and the D-backs trailed at 4.39. Of course, none of the other squads pitched half their games at Coors Field and none of them came close to that runs scored figure. The Rockies got to the playoffs in 2007 by beating their divisional rivals. The Diamondbacks didn't end the Dodgers chances, that didn't happen until a crushing sweep at home by the hands of the Rockies to start our hot stretch. Look at all the newspaper reports, all the Dodger blogs to see what day they felt they were out of contention. September eighteenth, not the sixteenth is the stain in their history when they felt the lifeblood drain out, when their veterans and rookies went to war with each other.

The Padres also simply couldn't beat the Rockies. The difference between what Jim calls the  Diamondbacks "B" squad that lost the last two games to us and the low scoring "A" squad that lost twelve of twenty to us including the playoffs did not amount to much. It certainly felt like the B squadders put up more of a struggle in game 162 than the A squad did in games one through four of the NLCS. The fact is, that no other team in the rest of the division could beat the Rockies in an eighteen game series last season, so of course it was their imperative to try and catch up, and of course the Rockies didn't have to feel pressured to make a move.

Now to me the question is, will Danny Haren be enough to give the Diamondbacks a shot at winning the season series against the Rockies? Will Hiroki Kuroda and Andruw Jones bring the Dodgers close enough? Haren's coming off of a career year where the spike in his production was way ahead of anything he had previously done. At age 27, it could very well be possible that he never duplicates his 2007 season again, and there's ample reason to believe this side of things. His stats last year were pretty close to his 90 percentile projections, meaning he came in at the upper end of where models would suggest he was capable. A step down from that is almost always a certainty (the same's true for Todd Helton, Manny Corpas and a lot of Rockies, so don't think I'm just picking on you guys here) in the following season, and the difference between pitching at Chase Field from McAfee as well as the strength of the other NL West lineups outside of San Francisco will mitigate a lot of the advantage he would otherwise get from switching to the lesser league.

I think many Diamondback fans have too high of expectations for Haren. He's not ace #2, he's just a #2. He's a really good pitcher, but to expect him to stay in the top dozen in baseball next season is wishful thinking. Still, with Haren the Diamondbacks have the best one through five rotation in the division, I can't deny that. Where the Rockies will likely make up a lot of ground in starting pitching is in the infirmary. Your rotation has some significant potential health issues after Webb and Haren. The drop off in pitching quality from Owings to Edgar Gonzalez isn't that big, but with Micah's bat it becomes significant. From Gonzalez to whoever's next on your list the drop is a lot bigger. Yusmeiro Petit just isn't as good as the Rockies make him look. Max Scherzer has one fabulous pitch and mechanics that make everybody wince. His special fastball loses life and velocity at around the sixty to seventy pitch mark, patient MLB hitters will get to him as a starter. The Rockies, meanwhile, will have another decent middle of the rotation arm ready with Greg Reynolds should Ubaldo Jimenez succumb to the Verducci effect.

I think the Padres are due for a step back this season, Greg Maddux is in peril of experiencing a final collapse and Wolf/Prior aren't safe bets to return to glory. Their outfield defense has worsened, and that will hurt Chris Young's line as well. I worry about the Dodgers, frankly, but I'm hopeful that the egos and incompetence in LA will once again prevail over the talent.

However, a reality check is in order. Despite the sweep inflicted by the Rockies in the Championship series, I think it's safe to say that Arizona fans do not really regard Colorado as a significant threat to our ambitions of another (yawn!) division title.
While I guess what I'm doing with the Padres is just that, writing off any of these four teams before September is a dangerous vanity, and as the Rockies showed last season, even then you better make damn sure the pulse is dead before you turn your back on any of them.

Good luck on the Spring, D-backs fans, Rockies fans look forward to your promise that our battles of summer will be fierce and worthy, and we'll keep our end of that bargain as well. As for a wager on the year, I propose a straight up season series challenge. Win more games against us -including any potential playoff games- and Snakepit Day will return to the Row next year. If we win more against the Snakes again, it'll be your turn to host. Since Jim is so certain of Tulo being a Coors fluke, maybe our shortstops can act as a tie breaker. I'll even take the defense out of the picture -since I know it wouldn't be close to a fair fight otherwise- and let's just go with a straight Tulo vs Drew VORP as the determinant should the teams split the season series. What do you say Jim? You think your boys are up to it?

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Hmm interesting
Wasnt it the Houston Astros who made the run to get into the playoffs pretty recently? ( I am thinking without checking so might be incorrect). How did they do in the couple of years after?
All the best Brits support the Diamondbacks!

by AZDarkKnight on Feb 14, 2008 8:55 PM EST   0 recs

After their 2004 comeback run?
They won the NLCS in 2005. After that second comeback they went downhill rapidly but the Astros (like that 1984-1985 Royals squad) were old and at the end of a long run of success rather than the beginning, like the 1964 Cardinals, the 1961 Giants, and presumably the 2007 Rockies. The recent team that really was one and done after a comeback was the 2003 Marlins, but there were very specific reasons why they didn't compete in 2004 (the owner dismantled the team) that don't apply.

by Rox Girl on Feb 14, 2008 9:40 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

enjoyed the erm.. spirited discussion
over at the row.   It is nice to see a group of fans, of alternate viewpoints, that can have a strong debate while still being able to do what I plan on doing.  Agree to disagree.  Kudos to both sides.

by nargel on Feb 14, 2008 9:49 PM EST   0 recs

No...
Turnabout seemed fair play, after they boosted our diaries over there to the front. Besides, this way it'll get off the front page quicker than if I left it as a diary. :-)

by Jim McLennan on Feb 14, 2008 11:37 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

G-d help us all if there's ever a
GLB day here.
Stay grindy, my friends.

by soco on Feb 15, 2008 8:33 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Back atcha!
[ Runs such as the Rockies twenty-one out of twenty-two game winning stretch in 2007 -and there have been similar comebacks in baseball history- almost always happen when a team is in a multiple season success cycle ]

I guess 'success' is relative - my research seems to indicate rather differently. As an (somewhat) objective measure, I took the first list I could find of greatest pennant-chase comebacks, which appeared in Baseball Digest at the end of the 2005 season. Starting with the most recent, let's see how the comeback kids did the next season.

  • 1995: Seattle, 13 back on August 3. Next season: second, 4.5 back.
  • 1993: Atlanta, 10 back on July 23. Next season: second, 6 back.
  • 1989: Toronto, 8 back on July 20. Next season: second, 2 back.
  • 1978: Yankees, 14 back on July 20. Next season: fourth, 13.5 back.
  • 1973: Reds, 11 back on July 1. Next season: second, four back.
  • 1973: Mets, 11.5 back on August 5. Next season: fifth, 17 back.
  • 1969: Mets, 10 back on August 14. Next season: third, 6 back.
  • 1964: Cardinals, 11 back on August 24. Next season: seventh, 16 back.
  • 1951: Giants, 13 back on August 12. Next season: second, 4.5 back.
  • 1942: Cardinals, 10 back on August 5. Next season: winners

Finally. if you're counting, that means you have to go back 65 years to find a late-season comeback team who then went on to win their division the following year. Now, these were significantly greater comebacks than Colorado [who were never more than eight out, and were rescued by the wild-card], but it seems to suggest it's tough for teams to come back after coming back. I also note that after 160 games last season, the Rockies had only a 3.1% chance of making the playoffs. It took a remarkable combination of results going absolutely their way for the post-season to be reached.

[ Tulo's high Coors Field BABIP is more likely a sign of high skill rather than luck. ]

The obvious response is, what happens to the Troy-boy's "high skill" when he leaves Denver? Compare someone like, oh, Albert Pujols; his BABIP at home and on the road over his career are almost identical [.315/.318]. I certainly can see that BABIP is player-dependent for hitters, much more than for pitches, but I'm hard pushed to see what kind of hitting skill is so Coors-dependent. The other examples you give are interesting, but much the same goes for, say, Holliday: his road OPS is only .781. His 'skill' seems much more park factor than incredible talent.

[ Look at all the newspaper reports, all the Dodger blogs to see what day they felt they were out of contention. ]

We softened them up for you. :-) But again, that goes to show what the rest of the West thought of the Rockies. Losing one against the division leaders is one thing; being swept in a double-header by a fourth-place team? Game over, man! Game over! Though the loss to Arizona was actually more damaging to their prospects (taking 12.4% off their playoff odds) than the two defeats by Colorado (-9.8% in total).

[ The fact is, that no other team in the rest of the division could beat the Rockies in an eighteen game series last season, so of course it was their imperative to try and catch up, and of course the Rockies didn't have to feel pressured to make a move. ]

of course, these days, less than half a team's games are against their division rivals. Colorado's record elsewhere was much less impressive; they barely broke even against the NL Central, posting the same record as the Giants. That's suckage, right there. :-) Looking at the splits, I also notice you were only 20-24 versus lefties. So here's to a nice, full season of Randy Johnson, who has a 2.27 career ERA against Colorado...

[ Your rotation has some significant potential health issues after Webb and Haren... The Rockies, meanwhile, will have another decent middle of the rotation arm ready with Greg Reynolds ]

Greg Reynolds? As in the guy who hasn't pitched above Double-A? And who missed the entire second-half of last year following shoulder surgery on his rotator cuff? A tad early to be anointing him a "decent middle of the rotation arm", I think. Maybe you should wait until he actually faces a major-league hitter? Obviously, injury can derail any team, but if the Rockies truly thought Reynolds was ready for the bigs, they wouldn't be signing the likes of Kip Wells [17-40 with an ERA of 5.51 over the past three years] and Mark Redman [18-29, 5.54]. That's who'll likely be filling out your rotation this season, and I'd take Yusmeiro Petit over either of them in a heartbeat.

As for the bet, I think the basic "season series" idea is fine, and am happily down with that. I don't think the tiebreaker will be necessary of course, but pitting Drew against Tulowitzki is a nice idea. However, Coors has such a skewing effect that I think we should use road sOPS+ [available on the splits pages at B-R.com] as the deciding factor. That still gives Troy-boy the edge in 2007, 94 to 90, but it seems a more level playing field from which to start. How's that sound?

by Jim McLennan on Feb 14, 2008 11:35 PM EST   0 recs

Right... objective
The difference between your research and mine in these same teams is that it went into exactly one season after the miracle comeback, whereas I looked at multiple season windows to clear up randomness using not only that Baseball Digest list but also teams from Nate Silver's piece at Baseball Prospectus last year. It's true that after the initial season there is typically a letdown, but  look at your list again:

1995 Seattle - It just went on to become one of the greatest teams not to ever do anything in the late nineties early 2000's
1993 Braves - we all know what kind of streak this started
1989 Toronto - Was consistently atop the NL East, won another World Series or two
1978 Yankees - Would be a force for five years before falling back
1973 Reds- The Big Red Machine of the seventies is a bad thing to be compared to?
1973 Mets - Okay, the '73 Mets really were a bad team, but they were mediocre with a park adjusted team OPS+ + ERA+ of under 200, the Rockies was 214. go read this for more.
1969 Mets - I don't really have much to argue on this one, including that 1973 team that only won 83 games, they were mediocre for years afterwards. They seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
1964 Cardinals - as I mentioned above, two more pennants in four seasons isn't a bad thing.
1951 Giants - They won the pennant again in '54 and were typically close to 100 wins in the seasons that followed.
1942 Cardinals - not only won the next season, but  three of the next four (this was WWII though, which probably isn't fair to consider) the 1934 Cardinals team is actually a much better example of a comeback like the Rockies, although they -like the Astros and Royals I talked about- were at the end of a run of success rather than the beginning.

Truthfully, though, the season after effect that you bring up has had me a little worried for our 2008, even though I know the overall picture is very bright.

Once again, you can believe me or not, but Coors BABIP is an indicator of a player's true skill level. It is the easiest way to tell if a player will be successful coming out of the ball park unless they are some slap-hitting speedster like Juan Pierre. The career leaders that have played in other stadiums (Walker, Gallaraga, Ellis Burks) all have been very successful in their non-Rockies careers, while those further back, haven't. As for Tulo vs Drew, while VORP is park adjusted, I'm okay with using the road figures to handicap my boy and make it more fair for yours.

by Rox Girl on Feb 15, 2008 6:59 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

To clarify...
The issue was not the long-term, but whether the Rockies will repeat in 2008. I don't doubt the long-term is bright, but my point was just that a sterling comeback late in the year does not appear to lead to repeat success over the immediately next season. Of course, second-place could prove to be good enough for the Rockies once again!

by Jim McLennan on Feb 15, 2008 12:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Just a friendly observation
Roxgirl, my dear, you are always far too optimistic when it comes to minor league players.  Every low-A guy who has a good month is a surefire pro starter - give him a decent season in AA and, madre de dios, start bronzing up his plaque!

Now, I'm sure there are Arizona fans who suffer from this same trivial affliction, but for the next couple of years they'll be in remission.  Have you seen our farm system?  No?  That's because it's in Sacramento.  (Hehe.)  But seriously - with the exception of Scherzer, just about every young gun who might contribute this year and next has already seen the elephant.  Their first sight may have resulted in an unsightly stream of dropped fly balls and strikeouts, but hey... can't have everything, right?

by peachy rex on Feb 15, 2008 1:07 AM EST   0 recs

I know!
Way too optimistic. It's because they keep rewarding my optimism that it's produced a sort of Pavlovian response.

by Rox Girl on Feb 15, 2008 7:01 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I think it's shaping up
to be a great rivalry next season,even if only on the blogs.I think I agree with you Rox Girl,about Tulo though (oh Jim forgive me )
We will meet in Red 3 at the hour of scampering.

by hotclaws on Feb 15, 2008 7:16 AM EST   0 recs

Civil Discourse
Wow,
  The discourse on the Snakepit is a lot more civil, and sane, than the responses on PR.  

  Yep, we can chalk that up as another way we're superior, along with SP, RP, and quantity of division titles and World Series titles.

  It's a great time to be a DBacks fan.

by tabe1978 on Feb 15, 2008 12:29 PM EST   0 recs

To be fair,
only a couple people were standoffish. Everyone else was fine. It'd be like if PR had a day here and Diamondhacks and suitsme showed up or something.
The artist formerly known as azdb7.

by Azreous on Feb 15, 2008 2:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

And AzPhan....
Stay grindy, my friends.

by soco on Feb 15, 2008 8:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I must defend suitsme there
He, at least, does not pretend to be a D-backs fan.

by Jim McLennan on Feb 15, 2008 8:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

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