The Big Unit...a Giant.
RJ and the Giants just came to terms on a one year, $8M deal. An additional $5M are available in performance bonuses.
It seemed that it was a competition between the two Bay teams for Randy's services with the Giants ultimately outbidding the A's. Seems to me that how reasonable this contract is (and, connected to that, how outraged D-Backs fans should be) is based on the performance bonuses. If the bonuses are easily reachable (say, 150 IP), then this looks like a deal that we had no business trying to compete with.
On the other hand, if the bonuses are rather unreachable (and the contract is basically just $8M straight up), then I wish we would have upped the ante on our offer. $8M is not unreasonable.
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113 comments
Comments
Arrrrgh
I have other responses, but I don’t wish to type them where my mother might read them. So I’ll resort to speaking in Pirate.
Argh!
"That's a cop-out, and you know it, and it breaks my heart into a thousand pieces that we ain't gonna save America with your blog today."
by kishi on Dec 26, 2008 11:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Though
Randy did just sign on with a team that scored fewer runs last season than the Diamondbacks….
"That's a cop-out, and you know it, and it breaks my heart into a thousand pieces that we ain't gonna save America with your blog today."
by kishi on Dec 27, 2008 12:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and their bullpen
has been known to visit that vortex of suck too…
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 27, 2008 12:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Giants fan checking in on reaction here
And it’s worth mentioning that the Giants’ bullpen should be better this year. Some of the worst offenders (Tyler Walker, Brad Hennessey are gone, Sergio Romo emerged as a really good reliever late last year, and Jeremy Affeldt and Bobby Howry, both upgrades compared to last year, were signed over the offseason.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Dec 27, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The bullpen wasn't actually that bad last year
The bullpen had a pretty good conversion rate- 68, as compared to 63 for the Diamondbacks. From the numbers I recall looking at when comparing Cy Young candidates, their bullpen was about as good as ours.
"That's a cop-out, and you know it, and it breaks my heart into a thousand pieces that we ain't gonna save America with your blog today."
by kishi on Dec 27, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah , we’ll hold you to four. While we dink out two.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 27, 2008 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
awww, we
both know the same tune then
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 27, 2008 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Affeldt, Howry?
You referring to the two pitchers with career ERA+ at 105 and 125 respectively (and Howry at 84 last year)? Aged 29 and 35? Just checking.
But otherwise, you’re right. A pretty decent pen last year.
"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck
by njjohn on Dec 27, 2008 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Compared to folks like Walker and Hennessey, yeah, they’re upgrades.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Dec 27, 2008 6:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And Affeldt has actually been pretty damn good the last two years, FWIW.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Dec 27, 2008 6:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the question is...
…which years were aberrant? perhaps he turned a corner, or perhaps he’s one of many mediocre middle relievers who happened to string together 70 decent innings, but who is as likely to revert to an 84 ERA+ as he is to repeat a 137 ERA+.
"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck
by njjohn on Dec 27, 2008 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure that Argh is strong enough, even as a substitute.
Better turn it into a YARRRRRRRRGH or something.
by Azreous on Dec 27, 2008 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For maximum agony
it should have a longer dipthong the middle.
YEEEEAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!
And maybe a grunt at the end:
YEEEEAAAAAAAARRRRGGGUUUHHH!
"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson
by Scrbl on Dec 27, 2008 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I've got a perfect sound to end that with
but this is a family channel, why gross everyone out on a Saturday morning.
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 27, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
puttputtputt (trolling motor)
Dipthong – what I’ll be wearing next week when the temp returns to normal , i.e.95
MY back stiffens up in the cold , and it’s no Phx at ATnT.
Santa , is there a bat in that bag too?
Damn. Get the hell off my roof then.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 27, 2008 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Only an hour late on this
does anyone ever read anything else?
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 26, 2008 11:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Clearly not me
Having just commented on muu’s comment. :-) But I think it does deserve its own story, so I’ve front-page it.
To repeat my previous comment, I’ll await details of the incentives, but my first instinct is the Giants overpaid. Do you know how many 45-year olds have given their teams 150 IP and an ERA+ above 100 since the start of the twentieth century? Only four: Jack Quinn (1929), Phil Niekro (1984), Nolan Ryan (1992) and Jamie Moyer (2008). So this is definitely a roll of the dice, and I can understand the Diamondbacks not wanting to gamble $10.5m or more on this.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 27, 2008 1:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Never mind me
It’s Friday night and I got the flu so my mood is a tad foul right now…
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 27, 2008 2:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I might suggest, once again,
drinking more Grey Goose?
At the very least, you’ll forget that you were sick….
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
by DbacksSkins on Dec 27, 2008 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
50% is the discount he
was willing to come down to with us though, no? Was anything ever talked about with added incentives or didn’t we get beyond the initial price point?
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 27, 2008 2:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We're the Dbacks.
We don’t DO incentives.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
by DbacksSkins on Dec 27, 2008 3:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's right
The Dbacks were never asked to “gamble $10.5M or more” on Johnson. As best we understand, they could’ve had him for $7-7.5M , with no performance incentives. It may’ve even been less, but the stunning $3M counteroffer effectively stopped negotiations.
by Diamondhacks on Dec 27, 2008 4:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
Can’t blame him, we just didn’t have the money to pony up, I guess.
Looks very interesting for them, but this is a lot like Gonzo … it’s going to be so horrible to see him wearing Brown and Orange. Almost worst than Pinstripes.
10 home starts should get him over 300, good for him. I’m sure he’ll be back one day as the face of the Franchise, but … ugh. Heartbreaking.
by Captain D Bag on Dec 26, 2008 11:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Argh indeed
We should have seen Randy get his 300th already if not for the lousy run support that plagued him when pitching for AZ. I so wanted to be there to see him going for 300 and now the thought that it could happen with him pitching to instead of for the Dbacks just pisses me off.
by TwinnerA on Dec 27, 2008 1:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
damn...
he’s not worth 8 mill, but it’ll hurt to see him get 300 with the Gnats
by J Up on Dec 27, 2008 2:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Actually according to Fangraphs
they expect him to be worth about 15 million next year.
by Brendan Scolari on Dec 27, 2008 4:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that’d be a shock.
"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck
by njjohn on Dec 27, 2008 8:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what a great feeling it's gonna be if...
he wins #300 against us… =[
Wikipedia is accurate. (citation needed)
by Muu on Dec 27, 2008 9:17 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well...
According to MLB.com’s tentative schedule, we’re not in too much danger, I don’t think. We play the Giants six times in April, when he won’t have a chance at 300 yet. The warning lights go off for the June 9-11 series, however. After that, we don’t see them again until the last part of August, and again in September.
by Azreous on Dec 27, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
With the Giants run support, that August series…
"That's a cop-out, and you know it, and it breaks my heart into a thousand pieces that we ain't gonna save America with your blog today."
by kishi on Dec 27, 2008 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well..
Better the Giants than the Padres or Dodgers.
by oklahomasooners on Dec 27, 2008 1:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
only barely so....
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 27, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I'd say it's
quite a bit better, actually.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 27, 2008 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
If he’s going to end up in the NL West, the Giants would probably be my choice. They’re the team I dislike the least right now.
"That's a cop-out, and you know it, and it breaks my heart into a thousand pieces that we ain't gonna save America with your blog today."
by kishi on Dec 28, 2008 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dislike the Rockies less than the Giants,
but I think the Rox are probably better suited to contend this year, so I’m happier with RJ going to the Giants.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 28, 2008 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The idiocy in the comments on AZ Central
Must be seen to be believed – the same know-nothings who were demanding Byrnes be signed are now gathering with pitchforks and torches. But I did enjoy this response to a “I have absolutely no reason to watch the D-Backs this year” comment:
Dear whatsAcenter, I could care less what you think. If you wanna pony up about 100 Million for a minority interest in the team, you can earn the right to have some say in our decisions. That goes for the rest of you so-called D-Back fans. Sincerely, Jeffrey Moorad
Not from Moorad, of course. But I would imagine he agrees with the sentiments.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 27, 2008 2:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
oh Gawds!
Some of those comments were torture to read…..
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 27, 2008 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My favorite quote from the comments there:
This is the worst move/non-move this organization has made. It’s a bigger gaffe than Russ Ortiz and Ritchie Sexson combined.
From what I can tell, the poster was being completely serious, too.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 2:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Holy historical gaffe, Batman!
I didn’t even know that Russ and Ritchie were dating.
by TAP on Dec 30, 2008 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
During Spring Training, maybe?
While she was a student at the UofA?
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Except that nvm,
she spells her name the same way as Sexson does.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Comforting note
2006:
First half ERA 5.13
Second half ERA 4.85
2007
First half: only pitched 56.2 innings
Second half: did not pitch at all
2008
First half: 5.23 ERA
Second half: 2.41 ERA
Johnson has basically had one-half of a good season over the past three years. It just happened to be the last one. Do you fancy risking $8m or more on rolling a six on a dice?
by Jim McLennan on Dec 27, 2008 3:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Just to connect all the dots...
That 2007 first half ERA was 3.81
by TAP on Dec 27, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the problem that year
Was far more that he didn’t pitch, rather than what he did when he could pitch.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 27, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm....
not a craps player, are you, Jim?
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 27, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not if I had $8m to spend
No. :-)
by Jim McLennan on Dec 27, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, in that case, you might want to invest.
I’d recommend mortgage-backed securities, but that’s a terrible idea….
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 27, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some more numbers
2006 – the herniated disc year with NY
205 IP
90 ERA+
2007
56.2 IP before blowing out surgically repaired back sliding into 3rd base (can we blame this on Chip Hale too?)
123 ERA+
2008
184 IP
117 ERA+
2009?
First year in the last three not coming back from back surgery
For those not familiar, ERA+ is the ratio of the league’s ERA (adjusted to the pitcher’s ballpark) to that of the pitcher. > 100 is above average and < 100 is below average. lgERA / ERA
by TAP on Dec 27, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or, to plug all three years together
ERA+ of 103, ranking him 45th among the 81 pitchers in the majors with 400+ innings over those three seasons. But, at the same time, he’s averaged only 24 starts per year. It’s one of those moves where the Giants GM will probably either look like a genius, or an idiot for wasting $8m.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 27, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or you could look at it this way...
He had a 3.74 FIP last year. Cole Hamels FIP was 3.70. So he’s basically a #1 starter when he’s healthy (although, obviously, big if there).
by Brendan Scolari on Dec 27, 2008 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
#1 starter
I love RJ as much as anybody (and really, really wish we had him back). But he is no #1 starter. It’s not just an issue of being healthy, too. He just can’t go deep into games any longer… both in terms of stamina and in terms of facing a lineup a fourth time through.
"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck
by njjohn on Dec 27, 2008 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True
when pitching, he pitches like a #1. But other factors, like stamina, health, and age, make him definitely not a #1. He is still a bargain at 8 million though, and this is coming from a Dodger fan who wishes we would have signed him.
by Brendan Scolari on Dec 27, 2008 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't really use FIP for Johnson
When his own fielding is so awful – he finished dead-last in the Fielding Bible ratings for pitchers, for example. Part and parcel of a Johnson start (and any analysis of his worth) is the realization that there is basically a large dead zone centered on the pitchers’ mound, which your infielders now need to cover.
I’d say he is a potential bargain at $8m – but he is also a potential bust at $8m. It’s a risk the Giants were prepared to take, and we (very clearly) weren’t.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 27, 2008 8:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with everything you said
but I also feel it is much more likely Johnson is a bargain than most free agent signings. If he just pitches to his projections he is a huge bargain, rather than hoping for a breakout or a return to form or something.
As far as pitcher’s fielding numbers, I haven’t seen those. Is the difference in fielding really that big? I would have guessed there’s only like a 5 run disparity between him and an average pitcher at most, but I have no idea. It would be interesting to see those numbers.
by Brendan Scolari on Dec 27, 2008 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
He just can’t go deep into games any longer… both in terms of stamina and in terms of facing a lineup a fourth time through.
That’s not exactly a true statement. When you look at last year’s results after Randy had fully rehabbed from his surgery, he was dominating. From July 7 through the end of the year he started 15 games (half of his season’s 30 starts) and those last 15 starts included:
- 6.55 IP per start
- 8.33 K/9 IP
- 5.35 K/BB ratio
- 2.56 ERA
Randy was the best pitcher on Arizona’s staff in the 2nd half of 2008 and there’s nothing that indicates his performance should be worse in 2009.
Who dominated for Arizona during the 2nd half of 2008? Let’s look at their ERA:
2.41 Johnson
3.39 Webb
3.48 Scherzer
4.18 Haren
4.75 Petit
4.80 Davis
27.00 Owings
Saying RJ no longer has stamina and can’t dominate may be an urban myth. Just sayin’…
by TAP on Dec 27, 2008 8:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, one-half of one season...
First half of 2008: 5.76 innings/start
Second half of 2007: didn’t pitch at all.
First half of 2007: 5.67
Even in 2006 with the Yankees – in the AL and with a DH – he averaged only 6.21 innings per start. I am very, very leery of projecting anything based on half a season [and am surprised to see you doing so, TAP]. As noted over on DBBP, Eric Byrnes hit .306 with 14 homers in the first half of 2007…
by Jim McLennan on Dec 27, 2008 9:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not projecting
Just disputing. Saying Johnson “just can’t go deep into games any longer” isn’t a statement that can be supported based on his most recent performance data. There’s no guarantee that he’ll dominate in 2009, but his 2008 2nd half data is more relevant than his 1st half data as it’s more indicitave of his current ability. Of course you would take the entire picture into account for projection purposes.
by TAP on Dec 27, 2008 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"#1 starter" is completely subjective.
Most teams don’t HAVE a truly dominating #1 like Webby, Timcecum, or Cole Hamels. RJ could be a #1 for some teams — for example, is there any doubt in your mind that RJ could have a better season than Aaron Cook and Jeff Francis? I’m not saying it’s guaranteed, but it’s certainly not unthinkable.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 27, 2008 8:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not that it changes the validity of your point at all
But the Rockies de facto “#1” is probably now Jimenez, who at least according to Marcel figures on being a better pitcher next season.
by Rox Girl on Dec 27, 2008 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
U-ball is projected to be better than Cookie this year?
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 27, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Better than RJ too, if you account for IP
But Cook typically doesn’t project nearly as well as he winds up pitching, at least that’s been the case the last two seasons, so we’ll see if it still holds true.
by Rox Girl on Dec 28, 2008 7:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Randy Johnson loves himself
and he loves money. – some ditz on KFYI right now
wow
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 27, 2008 4:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
RJ
It’s stupid to blame him, here. I mean, the guy was guaranteed a good 30, 40% more than we offered him with the potential to nearly triple our offer. Some people just hate people who make money.
"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck
by njjohn on Dec 27, 2008 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can kinda see the point
At what stage do things apart from hard cash become more important? It does still seem to be all about the money for him: in his shoes [per B-R.com, he has already earned $167.6m in team salaries alone], I would think I’d probably be more concerned about other things. But I’m not RJ though.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 27, 2008 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Even if he wasn't overly concerned with money
It sounds like the D-Backs’ offer was insultingly low. Then they compounded the indignity by saying that they “offered what they thought was fair”, instead of saying that they offered what they thought they could afford. In a low-key, self-justifying way, it looked like they were trying to paint RJ as a villain for not taking their offer. It makes me sad to see someone else beating the same drum.
RJ’s departure looked to me like a reasonable decision on both sides. He wanted to be paid for his potential and the D-Backs wanted to keep within a tight budget. It’d be a shame for either side to burn bridges over that.
"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson
by Scrbl on Dec 27, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
IAWT
"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck
by njjohn on Dec 27, 2008 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The last thing
I’d ever want is for this FO to be maligned unfairly, and I think saying they tried to paint RJ as ’a villain" here is rather harsh. AFAIK, only Mr Moorad used the term “fair” to describe the non-competitive $3M offer and JB sounded almost apologetic that he couldnt offer Randy more. So their tone doesnt bother me.
The tone that strikes me as consistently out of place – here, at azcentral and on McCovey Chronicles – is Jim’s, saying that Randy seems “to be all about the money”. Seriously, who is “all about the money” when the apparent numerical gap in local negotiations was over whether Randy would play here for near half or one quarter of his straight market value? Scrbi, your remark that Randy wanted to be “paid for his potential” is temperate and diplomatic, but in terms of local negotiations, I’m afraid untrue.
Over at McCovey, Jim gave the readership (that’s 90% in favor of the pickup, btw) a “reality check” that they paid too much (characterized deftly there as “sour grapes”), and at azcentral has flung half a dozen damage control missives, even berating upset Johnson loyalists that they’re “know-nothings” and not “true” fans. Oh, and Jim tars my notion the Dbax had the money to sign RJ for more than $3M “a lie”, dutifully explaining that several players “are due raises” and “we’re not the Yankees”, as if me, Rachel Ray and the Western World hadnt comfortably accounted for either bombshell.
Jim, it’s been fun watching your FO crusade crumble from “gambling away $10.5M”, to 8, and now resting, exhausted at $7M. Wake us up when you’re ready to come to grips with the “reality” of $3M. No one suggested Randy should’ve been ours at any price, and most folks arent even arguing market value or 80% of market. The interesting question, to me anyway, was what would’ve happened had the FO offered $5 or five and a half? Maybe Randy walked anyway, but I wouldnt bet on it. His first offer of $7-$7.5 indicated he wanted to play here pretty badly, and I wonder if he wouldnt have played for six, no incentives.
But we’ll never know. Thanks to, what was it again, the Gilkey contract ;-)
by Diamondhacks on Dec 29, 2008 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh oh....
the tweaking goes on….
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 29, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Another 'hacks screed...
Full of inaccuracies, deceit and straight-out lies. Where to start…
The “know-nothings” at AZ Central had nothing at all to do with Johnson, as you’re very well aware: I used the phrase to describe the ones who demanded Byrnes get extended. And the “true fans” comment was in response to the person who said he was canceling his season tickets, solely because Johnson wasn’t re-signed. Doesn’t fit my definition of a Diamondbacks fan – just a Big Unit fan.
The Giants are the ones gambling $10.5m on Johnson – that’s based on the $8m guaranteed and half the incentives. However, we can’t say for sure until we know what the incentives are, and I’m pretty sure ‘hacks has no clue on this matter. Similarly, we don’t know what Johnson demanded: all we have to go on is a statement he was willing to take a 50% pay-cut. 50% of what has never been explained. That could be anywhere from $5m to nearer $8m. It’s a question of the Giants paying more, uncertainty over the exact amounts they’ll end up paying, and what he demanded from us. Depending on what the issue is, the amount in the relevant number could be anywhere between $3m and $13m. On the Giants site, I discuss what the Giants paid. On AZ Central, I talk about what he wanted from the D-backs. In ’hacks twisted world, this counts as “crumbling.”
You must also have missed this story:
The club subsequently indicated a willingness to increase that offer slightly – but not for anything close to the Giants’ offer… Diamondbacks CEO Jeff Moorad expressed frustration recently in a chat on MLB.com that Johnson’s agents had not arranged a face-to-face meeting between Johnson and the Diamondbacks. Byrnes said. “In some respects it went well and in some respects we probably didn’t have the communication we wanted.”
So, in the absence of other evidence, it seems the door was left open and the club was prepared to continue negotiations, but were not able to do so, due to Johnson and his agents.
Meanwhile, ‘hacks starts off on AZCentral with the completely disingenuous statement, "They’ve already pared $35M gross from baseball’s eighth lowest payroll," and had to be forced to acknowledge that the bulk of that was already committed to other players, while [once again] berating the front office, in this case for “cheating AZ fans out of the most significant career milestone in franchise history.” Of course, it’s totally worth breaking the budget for the season, so that Johnson can perhaps win one game wearing a Sedona Red jersey. Thank God you’re not running the team.
Because, you should also review Steve Gilbert’s take:
I wrote earlier this offseason that I thought the D-backs had less than $10 million to spend and I still believe that to be true. The figure is probably closer to $7 million and as you pointed out $5.5 million has essentially been spent. Factor in another $1.5 for the signing of Augie Ojeda and the expected signing of Tony Clark and you’re right at the $7 million figure. Even if they did have $10 million to spend, that would only leave $3 million for Johnson
’hacks or Steve Gilbert? Who do you believe?
by Jim McLennan on Dec 29, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, now I get it
I’m a liar, full of deceit and inaccuracies (see Saddam Hussein, Bernie Madoff). The people on azcentral are “know nothings” and not “true” fans (thx for the clarification ;-) Foolish Giant fans have no idea of the mess they’ve gotten into. Poor TAP doesnt understand how worthless Randy really is. Steve Gilbert, professional journalist, is the last word on the team’s finances, not to be questioned by an outsider like me. Nobody but Jim understands The Big Picture and all the agonizing decisions Jerry Colangelo has foisted upon the Unheralded Savoirs of this grand franchise.
Welcome to Jim World!
First of all, I really dont appreciate being called a liar, especially twice for something that’s factually true. It’s out of bounds, and I encourage you to control your impulses a little better if you want to be respected or taken seriously.
They’ve already pared $35M gross from baseball’s eighth lowest payroll
This is a well-intentioned, and as far as I can measure, accurate statement, and the fact I didnt dilute it in your requisite corporate gumbo doesnt make it “a lie”. If I wanted to be disingenuous, I would’ve said something like the Dbacks anticipated payroll is half of what it was last year, which we both know to be false. I was merely trying to highlight the full extent of salary shed from 2008, which I felt had been systematically underreported (by Mr Gilbert among others), fully cognizant that much of it is counterbalanced by various increases. We can quibble as to exactly how much, but that pales next to the fact you felt compelled to lash out at this substantive statement as “a lie”, cackling that I’m suddenly “forced to admit” such an obvious, generally accepted fact. Get. A. Grip.
Regarding Steve Gilbert, I’ll copy what I said on azcentral:
I dont know more about the team than Steve Gilbert, but neither do I pretend he’s an idependent journalist ferreting out facts that might place the FO in a remotely unfavorable light. Nothing personal against Steve, but he’s a public relations man, employed by MLB to write down what Derrick Hall and Jeff Moorad tell him to write down, without being too much of a nuisance. That you seem to deem Mr Gilbert’s regurgitated budget as the last word on team finances, above question from outsiders, distinguishes you from me.
It’s one thing to say the Dbax WANT to spend less than $10M – that’s what the EVT says – and that’s closer to journalism, in my view. To say, over and over, the Dbax “HAD” less than $10M to spend" however, wreaks of unsubstantiated, collusive boilerplate.
After watching Moorad operate a couple years, seeing the players, colleagues and fans he’s alienated, his publicly blaming someone else (in this case Johnson and Johnson’s agents) for his own glaring inability to corral a willing stallion back to the ranch is hardly surprising. But if you know they did “everything they could”, who am I to argue. Perhaps we should consult Steve Gilbert on this ;-)
I stand by all my comments on this thread, about your “know nothings” and “true” fan remarks, about “crumbling”, about Diamondback fans being uniquely cheated, about my characterization of your broad-based fury as a “crusade”, in terms of scope and angry zealotry. I do give you credit for finally acknowledging (on McCovey, I think) that their pickup had bargain potential, but what does it take, Jim? Forty three comments across cyberspace, calling people idiots, liars, deceivers and unbelievers?
You probably wont believe me, but I really didnt want to get into this with you. My email the other day was sincere. But I just watch you go on and on and on, spinning like a whirling dervish, in lockstep with the Home Office (on this issue) and I just felt some perspective was needed.
I’d really like to move on
Here’s to a more peaceful 2009
by Diamondhacks on Dec 30, 2008 1:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to move on too
But it’s difficult, when the first post you make here after your ‘sincere’ email is nothing but sneering, misrepresentations and, yes, lies, What other word is there to use, when you say something, knowing perfectly well it’s not true? You claim I was ‘berating upset Johnson loyalists that they’re “know-nothings”’ Here is the post in question, in its entirety [in case you’re wondering, I was responding to a post referring to our outfielder ‘Burns’…]
I’d be more likely to take your views seriously if you could spell Eric BYRNES’ name correctly. Hey, it was the know-nothing fans here who were yelping and demanding the team had to extend Byrnes or they’d never watch the team again. Welcome to the results of that. You pay Johnson $7m, and you know what that means? Chris Burke is your starting second baseman.
Still stand by your claim? Your idea of a “well-intentioned” statement is laughable to those who know you, when you omit vital facts in an attempt to make it seem the team is being incredibly tight-fisted. It’s like saying GM isn’t in trouble because they sold X billion dollars worth of cars last year; at best a feeble half-truth.
Makes it worse you were “fully cognisant” of the fact that the money was largely already committed, but chose not to mention it – especially in a less-well educated forum such as AZ Central. It’s an attempt to mis-inform with your own propaganda, and hoping no-one would pick up on it. Yeah, that’s ‘some perspective’ alright!
I do give you credit for finally acknowledging (on McCovey, I think) that their pickup had bargain potential, but what does it take, Jim?
Finally acknowledging? I’ve hardly mentioned the topic here – because I’ve been working on a detailed post, if you must know. Should be up later today, all being well. Elsewhere, however, I’ve been offering – what was the phrase? Ah, yes – “some perspective”, to counter the KoolAid drinking on McCC and the fist-shaking on AZCentral.
Of course, the D-backs don’t “have” to spend less than $10m. I don’t “have” to spend within my budget either. But it’s eminently wise to do so – Jerry tried the alternative, and we both know how that ended. And of course, ‘hacks knows more about the team’s finances than a professional journalist, who has access to the front-office on an everyday basis. Or Nick Piecoro, who wrote that the Diamondbacks “have about $10 million to play with in their 2009 budget’”. Or Jack Magruder: “the D-Backs will have only about $10 million to spend.” Are you insulting all these independent, professional writers as ‘public relations men employed by MLB’ too? Or just part of ’hacks Grand, Global Conspiracy?
I dont know more about the team than Steve Gilbert
That’s about the only accurate thing you’ve posted in this thread. Still, I am grateful you avoided the personal abuse, and thank you for that.
Here’s to a more peaceful 2009 too. How much it is, however, depends on you – and your expressed desire for peace rings pretty hollow so far.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 30, 2008 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That you insist, even now, on characterising my ‘first’ post as “nothing but sneering, misrepresentations and, yes, lies” says all we need to know about your sincere interest in moving on. (please note my use of the word sincere is not in quotes)
For those playing at home, that would be the post where I actually [gasp!] defended the general tone of our FO, but took you specifically to task for what I consider a narrow display of fealty to the FO and an uncomfortably broad crusade (across three websites that I know of) against a plurality of fans (educated and not) presumptuous enough to posit that $3M for Randy Johnson seems untenably cheap.
Your point about the economy is fair, to a point, and I recognize a given player’s value may not be the same on different rosters- I’d even entertain the argument that resigning Randy wasnt in the club’s best interests. So, why are you stubbornly averse to even the theoretical upside of finding a couple million more to entice Johnson, without bringing up gloomy cautionary tales of 2004? It’s a false dichotomy ot your own imagination, that unfortunately, dovetails nicely with the prevailing company line.
That you would go on questioning my integrity so forcefully, over a minor technical point re “know nothings” (ok, you didnt outright call the RJ loyalist a ‘know nothing’, but you strongly suggested it) speaks to your irascible temperment more far more than my honor. The larger point is that you’re scolding people left and right who, in this case, dont toe this particular company’s line, and your ammo is the private firm’s own figures!
By contrast, Piecoro and Jack correctly call the $10M part of the club’s self-reported budget. It doesnt mean they blindly defend it, like you do, or reflexively insult skeptics. On the contrary, you’ve cited budget skepticism from Bordow and, true to form, chastised Piecoro for it. I find it healthy, professional, and yes, somewhat overdue – fueled by MLB’s notoriously suspect revenue numbers and our collective inability to examine the club’s actual profit and loss.
Thank you for letting my express my opinion
by Diamondhacks on Dec 30, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just to review your original post
Paragraph 1. Rehashing comments from Moorad,. and giving us your personal interpretation of what Byrnes sounded like.
Paragraph 2. Attacking my “tone” and patronizing another poster.
Paragraph 3. Misquoting me, then attacking me again for pointing out the facts which were omitted from your post on AZ Central.
Paragraph 4. Accusing me – incorrectly – of ‘crumbling’, mis-representing me once more, and speculating vaguely on what “might” have been.
Really: not your finest work, and you can hardly blame me for a strong reaction.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 30, 2008 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Randy , come back!
They’re wrecking the place!
Only you can save them from themselves.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 9:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Randy Johnson was a load bearing pitcher. He leaves and the whole of AZ fandom collapses.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Dec 30, 2008 10:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh oh.
More neutrals enter the battlefield. Beware of civilian casualties.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
think of us as the two old guys in the Balcony on The Muppet Show
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Dec 30, 2008 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Waldorf and Statler?
Actually, with vic anyway, that seems to fit….
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There we go.

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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ROFLOL!
Perfect!
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 30, 2008 11:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This hurts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGfx3QAV64M&feature=related
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+100
good one though
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 30, 2008 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m the guy on the left
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Dec 31, 2008 12:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At least
you’re concise, a virtue at this point. I’ll try to be the same.
P1 – Defending the FO in a pleasant manner, even a little joke at my expense. Anyone can read it and judge for themselves. Yet you find all kinds of problems with it?
P2 – After sitting on the sidelines, reading a great deal on several sites, I did finally attack your tone, as have several others (if you were listening) – including the person I’ve suddenly come to learn I’m “patronizing”. Gee, thanks for the tip :-)
P3 – I did misquote you saying you berated RJ loyalists as “know nothings”, when instead you suggested they were “know nothings”. Small victory, I guess, but I know how infuriating it is to be misquoted and routinely misrepresented, so point for you. And I didnt attack you for “pointing out facts”, I took exception that you cavalierly (and repeatedly) called me a liar. Again, anyone can read it and decide fo themselves.
P4 – Crumbling is, I admit, pejorative. A less pejorative way to say it is that you suggested the Dbacks had a progressively smaller and smaller amount to “waste” on Johnson, as you were confronted with various reader challenges. 10.5M, 8M, 7M. It’s there for everyone to see on the three sites. I argued that none of those amounts are particularly relevant to local negotiations – not when the club offered $3M – yet you continually engage people as if that’s where the rubber met the road.
Can I blame you for a strong reaction?
At this point, I dont expect you to take criticism gracefully, but I do hold out hope for healthy introspection, a revelation someday that you come on too strong, as I sometimes do, and that there’s more to some issues – right and wrong – than is dreamt of in either of our philosophies.
by Diamondhacks on Dec 30, 2008 10:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And on that note
I think we have exhausted this one. :-)
by Jim McLennan on Dec 30, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOLZ
…healthy introspection…
There was measurable continental drift. You two missed it.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Amen to that. Jeez....
Jim, you may be the Flying Spaghetti Monster of the site,

But I’ve been tempted to put you AND ’hacks in 15-minute timeout. (Separately, of course)
[insert pot and kettle references to DbacksSkins here]
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You must also have missed this story:
The club subsequently indicated a willingness to increase that offer slightly – but not for anything close to the Giants’ offer… Diamondbacks CEO Jeff Moorad expressed frustration recently in a chat on MLB.com that Johnson’s agents had not arranged a face-to-face meeting between Johnson and the Diamondbacks. Byrnes said. "In some respects it went well and in some respects we probably didn’t have the communication we wanted."
So, in the absence of other evidence, it seems the door was left open and the club was prepared to continue negotiations, but were not able to do so, due to Johnson and his agents
If I were RJ’s agents and received a voice mail that stated that the org was willing to “…increase that offer slightly” from the 3mil reported then I probably spend my time on the phone with other orgs getting realistic offers. Even If the D-backs doubled their original offer (which would hardly qualify as a slight increase) the offer would still have been well below what RJ got on the open market.
I can’t see how the org would be surprised that they “probably didn’t have the communication we wanted.”
Sounds like spin control too me.
by foulpole on Jan 25, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OTOH,
I love myself too, and I also love money, so….
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 27, 2008 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
IAWT
"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck
by njjohn on Dec 27, 2008 7:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
doh!
"There are only two seasons: winter and baseball"
-- Bill Veeck
by njjohn on Dec 27, 2008 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A deer!
A female deer!
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 27, 2008 8:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
D'oh! My beer! I dropped my beer!
Ray, the guy that serves me beer,
Me, the guy, that drinks my beer,
Far, I’ll go to get a….
Eh, you know.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 27, 2008 8:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1¼
I like this version better
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 27, 2008 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm trying to remember
what that’s from….
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 27, 2008 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"What's on YOUR marquee?"
CHASEing you , James , with the question – how long is Chase/One locked in for naming rights?
I mean – the banks are being all “Cannot reveal that now” with where the money’s going…
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 27, 2008 10:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I hear
JP Morgan Chase still has the rights, but based on copious fan feedback, effective 2009 the park will be dubbed “The Morg”.
Might as well make it official ;-)
by Diamondhacks on Dec 27, 2008 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s call it “The Morgan”, after my dear daughter-in-law, who is known as “The Lovely Morgan” to one and all.
It's like living with a six-year old.
by 4 Corners Fan on Dec 28, 2008 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or we could call it
“The Morgan”, after famous pirate and rum mascot Henry Morgan.
I like that idea better. Pirates are da shiznit.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 28, 2008 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One of our favorite IZW wrestlers
Approves of this proposal.

by Jim McLennan on Dec 28, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm.....
yeah, I could see naming it after her.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 28, 2008 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Except for those Somali pirates, who didn’t get the memo that pirates are supposed to be more romantic and less murderous.
It's like living with a six-year old.
by 4 Corners Fan on Dec 29, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno.
The BBC makes it sound like a good time. There are even ‘pirate spokesmen’, apparently:
Pirate spokesman Sugule Ali told the BBC Somali Service at the time: “Everybody is happy. We were firing guns to celebrate Eid.”
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 29, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For I am a piiiiiiiirrrate spokesman!
And it is, it is, a glorious thing, to be a pirate spokesman!
"We...probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." — Terry Bisson
by Scrbl on Dec 29, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
On top of that
Their choreography is terrible, and their lyrics are barely adequate at best.
"That's a cop-out, and you know it, and it breaks my heart into a thousand pieces that we ain't gonna save America with your blog today."
by kishi on Dec 29, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They can't
play baseball for crap, either.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 29, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2028
Per this chart, which is about the same at your stadium (both in length and price, at a little over $2m per), whose contract expires 2024. Who knows how many name changes they’ll both go through between now and then!
by Jim McLennan on Dec 28, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or colors!
(Runs away)
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey!
stop throwing stones!
If you make every game a life-and-death thing, you're going to have problems. You'll be dead a lot.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 30, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nerf stones. It ain't about the laundry but the wearer within.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 11:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm kind of
ehhhhhhhhh about this
You keep on rowin', and I'll keep on smilin'.
by soco on Dec 28, 2008 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Funny
Alot of fans are aggrenated with this signing but who cares!! It shows that Randy was def. going for the money instead of the wins and was a sub-par pitcher last year.
D-Backs organization did the right thing letting him walk.
Johnson might be a local hero but not worth the $8 mil price tag the San Fran Giants gave him. Let it go RJ of young is a thing of the past he is washed up and beating, nothing this organization needs if were trying to move in a younger direction!
by JuicyJuice on Dec 31, 2008 12:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm not agg...aggren...
I’m down with it.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 31, 2008 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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