The 2008 Pitties: Most Valuable Player
by Jim McLennan on Nov 28, 2008 9:51 PM EST
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PrintBrandon Webb successfully retained his throne as the Diamondbacks Cy Young, with a comfortable victory, though the margin this year was palpably smaller: Webb got 68% of the vote this year - still a comfortable victory, but down from 80% in 2007, thanks to competition from both Haren and Johnson. Hopefully, Webb will maintain his high standard in 2009, and the rest of the pitching staff will step up their game and give him even more competition in the coming season.
We now hit the final category of the 2008 'Pitties - dammit, and still three months till spring training. There was I, hoping to stretch the awards out until the rebirth of baseball: I guess I'm going to have to find other things to write about: not exactly easy, given the complete lack of activity on the Diamondbacks front. At least, above the water - I trust this is a swan-like illusion, with a lot of activity going on below the waterline. And I do not mean the reported talks with Damion Easley.
Anyway, will Webb also be able to hang on to the MVP award which he won in the 2007 Pitties? Here are the five nominees: I think we've largely discussed most of their credentials before, so this will be relatively brief. Besides, I think there is still some honey-baked ham in need of my attention...
Stephen Drew. With an .835 OPS, Drew led the regular line-up, an outstanding accomplishment for a short-stop - among those with 250 PA's, only Hanley Ramirez had a higher figure in the entire majors. Over the second-half, Drew was particularly productive, batting .326, with a .928 OPS, and ended the year having hit 21 homers.
Adam Dunn. While our playoff push finished short, it wasn't the fault of Dunn, who came as advertised: walks (42 in 44 games), strikeouts (44) and plenty of power (a 29-homer pace), showing what effect a true slugger can have. His .417 OBP has been beaten only once by an AZ player with that many PAs [Gonzalez, .429 in 2001].
Dan Haren. Everything we wanted and more, Haren had career bests in K's (206) and ERA+ (138), making the All-Star Game. Would have been better than 16-8, but for dismal support (4.1 runs per game in his nine no-decisions). Also worth noting: Haren batted a very respectable .211 and played error-free baseball with his glove.
Conor Jackson. As noted previously, only two other major-leaguers since 1995 have played 50+ games in a season at both an outfield and an infield position, while hitting .300 overall. Jackson's flexibility dug the team out of a potentially deep hole after the loss of Byrnes, and he proved himself as a reliable outfielder.
Brandon Webb. Enough said. :-)
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Free exchange of ideas?
I noticed comments to the Scotsdale ST thread just closed, uncharacteristically early?
Intentional? Oversight?
(I was in the middle of addressing your colorful “Tired Prejudice” comment, when it seems everyone’s opinion but yours was categorically silenced)
by Diamondhacks on Nov 28, 2008 10:27 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
There's absolutely no-one to blame but yourself.
If I genuinely thought you were interested in discussing the pros and cons of Scottsdale as a location for spring training, I’d have been happy to leave it open. That, very clearly, wasn’t the case and as a result, there was no point in letting you continue. You have your own forum for your views; feel free to express them there, until you can do so in a mature fashion. The matter is closed; any attempt to continue will be at your own risk.
by Jim McLennan on Nov 29, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Free exchange of ideas?
by Diamondhacks on Nov 28, 2008 8:27 PM MST
I guess not???
If I genuinely thought you were interested in discussing the pros and cons of Scottsdale as a location for spring training, I’d have been happy to leave it open. That, very clearly, wasn’t the case and as a result, there was no point in letting you continue. You have your own forum for your views; feel free to express them there, until you can do so in a mature fashion. The matter is closed; any attempt to continue will be at your own risk.
Jim McLennan on Nov 29, 2008 11:37 AM MST to parent
I read the posts and don’t see any reason to close that thread or threaten D-hacks with being booted from this site.
I guess
That says more about you than anything else. At no point there did I threaten D-hacks with being booted. My not-so-veiled threat above was a direct reference to the LAST time he got banned.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 2, 2008 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
I didn't see
a threat to boot ’hacks either, and I certainly think there was justification to close the thread.
4/1/1983-11/27/2007 * RIP#21 * The Eternal Redskin
“I guess…That says more about you than anything else.”
I’m not exactly sure what this means but it sure sounds like a personal attack to me? Am I wrong?
At no point there did I threaten D-hacks with being booted. My not-so-veiled threat above was a direct reference to the LAST time he got banned.
I have a real hard time believing that that comment was anything other than a “not-so-veiled threat…” How could anyone interpret it otherwise? You yourself responded by saying that it was a “…not-so-veiled threat…” and also referred to “…the LAST time he got banned.”
I’m more confused now than I was before? I feel that D-hacks adds value to this forum and it would be a shame to see him go.
I’m not trying to be an ass…no response to my effort to understand what is and is not acceptable on this Diamondbacks (not a movie, opera, other off topic) forum???
???
Or the beginning of enlightenment.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 13, 2008 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
I'm hoping 2009
is the year Drew is able to be a great hitter all year long.
You keep on rowin', and I'll keep on smilin'.
by soco on Nov 28, 2008 11:00 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Damien Easley?
Oy Vey!
It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Nov 28, 2008 11:04 PM EST reply actions
We need
to stock up on a super-utility veteran since Tony Clark probably won’t be back.
You keep on rowin', and I'll keep on smilin'.
ahhh!
makes perfect sense then!
It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Nov 28, 2008 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Think I will go
with Dan Haren on this one.
“Everything we wanted and more” sums it up nicely.
It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Nov 29, 2008 12:41 AM EST reply actions
Oops
Know there was something I forgot. I’m blaming the honey-baked ham.
by Jim McLennan on Nov 29, 2008 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Hang on
A vote for terrorism? I didn’t think that was the way it was supposed to work…
by Jim McLennan on Nov 29, 2008 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
See, unlike you guys,
foulpole recognizes, correctly, that Conor Jackson hates freedom.
4/1/1983-11/27/2007 * RIP#21 * The Eternal Redskin
Tough call
But I went with CoJack. He’s put up good numbers, and I think agreeing to move to a new position in the middle of the year was a huge thing for the team that puts him over the top.
"I'm here to advise you on dispensing horror in this modern military climate. I understand you're a demigod, that's fantastic!"
Based on pure productions, it's Brandon Webb, and Haren's the only one remotely close.
Webb’s peripherals were amazing and his ERA is inflated thanks to the Snakes’ home park. Haren similarly.
Jackson’s .300/.376/.446 line is nice, but it came in a hitters’ park at two positions that are pretty easy to fill. His value was no where near the best on the team.
By tRA (an advanced DIPS metric), Webb was the slightest of steps behind Tim Lincecum in total value this year.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I’m surprised that O-Dawg and Snydes were not on this list.
IMO, Wolf, O-Dawg and Snydes ( not necessarily in that order) were our top MVP candidates. Hopefully at some time people will start to realize just how difficult those three defensive spots are to play and give those positions more credit.
I would give the nod to Wolf.
Foulpole gives the nod to "Wolf",
right after explaining how difficult these “three defensive spots are to play”.
If you’re going to bring up defense, at least choose an MVP whose defense at his position is at an MLB-average level.
4/1/1983-11/27/2007 * RIP#21 * The Eternal Redskin
If you’re going to bring up defense, at least choose an MVP whose defense at his position is at an MLB-average level.
Like CJ really fits into that category? At two of the easiest fielding positions in the baseball universe?
CJ is one of the worse fielding 1bs in the league and while he did a decent job in his limited roll in LF is far from a gold glove contender.
Just try to imagine how effective CJ would be playing ss, 2b or catcher.
Also
Let’s consider how effective Drew would be as a pitcher, or Webb would be as a DH in our MVP evaluation.
You are the one who mentioned defense, and then voted for someone who didn’t particularly excel at that skill.
"I'm here to advise you on dispensing horror in this modern military climate. I understand you're a demigod, that's fantastic!"
Oh, and
Please have a little consistency. Skins said MLB-average fielding. Why does CoJack need to be at Gold Glove level to achieve that? Other than the ridiculous standards you feel he needs to live up to before you begrudgingly accept him as a good player?
"I'm here to advise you on dispensing horror in this modern military climate. I understand you're a demigod, that's fantastic!"
just grind that axe!
truth be damned!
It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 2, 2008 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
CoJack is a below average 1B,
but average or slightly above average LF. But I’m not the one who brought up fielding ability as an important factor in selecting an MVP. (Nor did I even mention Conor Jackson) You did — and then chose Stephen Drew, who’s defensively below average at his position. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a very good argument for choosing Drew as our MVP, but defense isn’t really part of it.
And for the record, I actually didn’t vote for CoJack.
4/1/1983-11/27/2007 * RIP#21 * The Eternal Redskin
It is funny
that your post didn’t contain anything close to “Conor,” “Jackson,” or “CoJack,” yet that was the first thing he jumped on.
. But I’m not the one who brought up fielding ability as an important factor in selecting an MVP. (Nor did I even mention Conor Jackson)
The poll (Jim) listed CJ, not me. But still, vote for who ever you feel is “MVP” but I really don’t see a poor defensive 1b that can’t hit more than 15 bombs a year as a “MVP.”
of course not
But how about a LFer ?
And pretend his name isn’t Conor Jackson, if you can
It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 6, 2008 3:06 AM EST up reply actions
but I really don’t see a poor defensive 1b that can’t hit more than 15 bombs a year as a "MVP."
I just don’t understand why you make an exception for Drew at SS. Why? Because the fact that he plays a more difficult fielding position might make him the better fielder on balance? MOST 1Bs are poor defensively — heck, Mo Vaughn played 1B when he switched from the AL to the NL.
Anyway, when CoJack was one of the better offensive performers on an offensively-challenged team, I certainly think he warrants inclusion, at least, in an MVP poll.
4/1/1983-11/27/2007 * RIP#21 * The Eternal Redskin
I just don’t understand why you make an exception for Drew at SS. Why?
Because the offensive production from a very difficult position ( from Wolf) was equal to or better than CJ who played ( at a poor to ave at best) the two easiest D spots on the field.
MOST 1Bs are poor defensively — heck, Mo Vaughn played 1B when he switched from the AL to the NL.
Mo Vaughn hit with real power and provided coverage for the rest of the line up. Opposing pitchers/mangers don’t pitch around CJ and probably never will.
“…CoJack was one of the better offensive performers on an offensively-challenged team.”
How was CJ “one of the better offensive performers on an offensively-challenged team?”
In one category… OB%? BTW He didn’t even “lead the team” in that category.
How about all of the other categories?
HR. RBI, BA, SLG% runs ??? He didn’t lead a “poor offensive team” in any category. ( if you’re just looking at stats) that impressive to me from a poor 1b on a “offensively-challenged team.”
Maybe we should compare his production to other starting 1bs?
Snyder was just outside the top 5
And caused some agonizing. If Hudson had not got injured, he’d likely have been in there too, though as already noted, his defense continued its decline, by every objective metric.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 2, 2008 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
objective metric
Is often an oxymoron. ;-)
BTW, while O-Dawg was excluded, Dunn was included? O-Dawg played a bigger roll in the ’08 season than Dunn did…no?
I knew you were going to call me on that :-)
Don’t forget, the phrase is “Most Valuable”, not “Best over the whole season” – the same reason that makes Manny the Dodgers’ MVP, by a landslide.. The season was decided in the last couple of months, not the first, and I weight performance in that crucial stretch higher. While it’s through no fault of his own, Hudson contributed nothing at all down the stretch
On the team front
Yes. But it’s not of any significance in the analysis of individual players.
by Jim McLennan on Dec 2, 2008 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
I weight performance in that crucial stretch higher.
I’m not the one that gives more value to a win in September. Wins in April mean as much (if not more).
I have no idea why anyone would value a September win more than an April win???
Maybe
Because we had a bunch of April wins, and the lack of September wins meant they didn’t mean anything?
"I'm here to advise you on dispensing horror in this modern military climate. I understand you're a demigod, that's fantastic!"
Of course
If April wins mean so much, you probably voted for Conor Jackson due to his great hitting in April- .348/.427/.640 with 24 runs and 24 RBIs, right?
"I'm here to advise you on dispensing horror in this modern military climate. I understand you're a demigod, that's fantastic!"
Wow!
The logic is inescapable there!
Scary
It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Dec 6, 2008 3:07 AM EST up reply actions
Yes
I’ve found that unassailable logic is the surefire way to make sure that foulpole doesn’t respond to your comments anymore.
"I'm here to advise you on dispensing horror in this modern military climate. I understand you're a demigod, that's fantastic!"
Either unassailable logic,
or being DbacksSkins.
Except that even THAT isn’t as reliable anymore.
4/1/1983-11/27/2007 * RIP#21 * The Eternal Redskin
I think some of the filter got transferred to me
I don’t even remember the last time foulpole replied to one of my comments.
"I'm here to advise you on dispensing horror in this modern military climate. I understand you're a demigod, that's fantastic!"
Yes, but it's the unassailable logic, remember?
OTOH, I’m much more illogical and irrational than you, and yet I’m usually ignored.
4/1/1983-11/27/2007 * RIP#21 * The Eternal Redskin
Right, I forgot
I’m only logical here, I’m used to being irrational everywhere else.
"I'm here to advise you on dispensing horror in this modern military climate. I understand you're a demigod, that's fantastic!"
20-8 in April
means 2nd place in a poor division by the end of September.
4/1/1983-11/27/2007 * RIP#21 * The Eternal Redskin
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