Baseball's Glass Ceiling; or, Why Not Women?
by soco on Nov 20, 2008 12:16 AM EST
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PrintAmongst the hype of Major League baseball eyeing India or Korea, are people forgetting a group closer to home?
In Japan 16 year-old Eri Yoshida became the first woman to be drafted for Japan's professional league. Although she still has a long way path to navigate through the minor leagues, perhaps this will open the door for other women in Japan to not only have a chance at playing professional baseball, but take up the sport to begin with.
Woman and baseball is not a complete novelty here in the United States, though the sport has long been dominated by men. The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was created during World War II and inspired the film A League of Their Own. Currently, there is a Boston based North American Women's Baseball League, though it is strictly amateur. USA Baseball has a women's team to go with the men's, and have won a few gold medals in international competitions in the past few years. As long as there has been baseball, women have played it.
An advantage for a woman trying to break in to baseball is that the sport is not immediately gender specific. Though strength helps with homeruns or throwing someone out from the outfield, both require just as much concentration, eye coordination, and technique. The main aptitudes for baseball are being able to hit the ball for hits, a good eye to hit or draw walks, legs to run or steal bases, and sometimes good hops to make leaping catches. Unlike basketball or even football, baseball doesn't require a certain body type. Although short players in basketball can be quite successful, they find a harder road simply because everyone will considerbaly taller than them. In baseball the physical gender differences don't add much advantage, leveling the playing field. The only thing stopping women from playing is experience and opportunity.
One immediate obstacle to women pursuing baseball has been the rise of softball as an alternative. That isn't to say that softball is inferior or that the game should be shunned. It's just that the two sports are separate with similar rules and skill sets, but not exclusively to gender. Approximately 40 million people of both genders in America play softball, so it certainly isn't a "woman's only game." Yet at the same time girls are actively discouraged to pursue baseball as youth, instead being given the softball path. To continue playing baseball through junior high and beyond is not the normality for girls.
So women are given softball as an option, regardless if the girl has been playing in Little League up to this point. The change is fairly smooth, and most girls probably never look back. The two sports share many skill sets and as evidenced by Olympic Softball competitions, the skill level can be extraordinary. If the skills sets are largely the same, and women can reach a high level in softball, why not in baseball? Obviously with men's lengthy head-start in the sport it would be difficult to be the first women competitiors in professional baseball. Being the first of anything is almost always tough, though, so what else is blocking women?
It isn't Major League Baseball, at least not publicly. MLB does not have an active rule currently banning women from its league. In 1952, however, Commissioner Frick did ban women hoping to curb publicity stunts. The rule was eventually revoked, but this hasn't changed matters. This isn't to say that the league officials now are hostile towards women playing. Most likely they are waiting for talent to match current men's levels before making the dive. For a league based on tradition and an Old Boys' Club, it is hard to completely trust this thought process. Admitting a woman to the all-male ranks would be a seismic shift for the game and American team sports, so perhaps owners overall would be less than willing to rock the boat. Without a viable woman player representive, however, it is impossible to test this theory.
So do the fans want women in the game? For the sake of argument we'll assume that we have a Jane Doe entering draft and is talented enough to be taken in the first round or two. Would you want her in the Major Leagues? Would you want her on the Diamondbacks? Or should MLB stay for men, and let the women create their own league like the WNBA?
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This sort of thing
should be actively discouraged. It’s socialist, fetishy and undermines marriage in respects too subtle to actually articulate. Men have played ball for five thousand years, and it’s worked out well for everyone concerned.
Once women play ball, these skittish, gossipy boobs’ll insist on being combat pilots, managing hedge funds and vying for Sec’y of State! Before you know it, we could be losing wars, in a recession, or suffering from a tarnished int’l reputation.
Please join me, wont you, in voting NO on this proposition.
For the children.
by Diamondhacks on Nov 20, 2008 11:12 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
Plus, they cry
There’s no crying in baseball. That was in a movie somewhere- I think it was Bull Durham 2: Bull Harder.
"I'm here to advise you on dispensing horror in this modern military climate. I understand you're a demigod, that's fantastic!"
You know why they can't play?
Because 90% of the game is half mental, and they’re just women with tiny brains, 1/3 the size of a man’s.
It’s science.
Also, D-hacks, you forgot to note that the people who think women should play baseball? Yeah. They also hate freedom.
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
I used
“it’s science” as an explanation for things for like a year after that movie came out. Even if it made no sense whatsoever.
You mean,
especially if it made no sense whatsoever.
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
Well
it is hard to juggle cooking and scooping up groundballs.
You keep on rowin', and I'll keep on smilin'.
Brings new meaning to 'throws like a girl'
I like the idea, but it would need to be on merit: if it was done as a gimmick, and turned out to be a disaster, it would be entirely counter-productive. I know this was discussed before, with Jenny Finch the most-mentioned name – not least because her husband, Casey Daigle, was a thoroughly mediocre pitcher for us at the time [ERA 6.46]. If I recall, she had a segment on This Week in Baseball, where major-league hitters would try to hit her rising fastball, and they didn’t usually do too well.
The diversion of women into softball is certainly an issue, but the talents are similar enough that they should be adjustable. However, my instinct is that pitching would be more likely an entry point, as pitch velocity is not the sole path to success. Particularly in relief, a softball delivery like Finch would likely be very effective, simply because it is so unusual.
There would certainly be issues – not least the locker room. There would, presumably, need to be an entirely separate one, with its own shower, etc. Might that contribute to a disconnect between her and the rest of the team? One dreads to think what kind of heckling they might get from the more Neanderthal of spectactors too. And, inevitably, the question has to be asked as to whether they would be able to pitch on 2-3 days of the month: that might be another good reason for a bullpen spot.
I don’t think a WMLB would work, for much the same reasons that the WNBA doesn’t: it is almost universally seen as a second-class league [not that this is purely a feminine issue – see also, or rather don’t, the XFL]. It might work on a college circuit, but not on a larger scale.
No doubt, it would be a huge publicity boost, but whoever it is, would be under a tremendous amount of scrutiny – it’s probably no exaggeration to say it would be of Jackie Robinson levels [especially with the media being so much more omnipresent than 60 years ago]. So she had better possess a supremely phlegmatic temperament.
But, hey, she certainly wouldn’t be the first. More than 200 years ago, Jane Austen wrote in Northanger Abbey:
It was not very wonderful that Catherine, who had nothing heroic about her, should prefer cricket, baseball, riding on horseback, and running about the country at the age of 14, to books.
You go, girl. :-)
For a recent
example of the media crushing a child’s sports potential, look at Michelle Wie.
Arizona expatriate in Missouri
Hah! The XFL?
Good friend of mine was waaaay into that. Taped every game. (Yes, kids, there was a time when we had to record everything on rolls of magnetic tape!)
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
Wait, what?
A time without TiVo?
Egads.
The fundamentals of the economy are strong. Mmmhm.
by emilylovesthedbacks on Nov 21, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
I know!
We had to chisel books into stone tablets to publish them, too.
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
Had to?
past tense… You mean you don’t have to do that anymore?
It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Nov 22, 2008 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
Nope.
Apparently, they have something they call the “Gutenberg” now.
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
wow!
Progress! Ain’t it amazin’?
It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Nov 22, 2008 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
Huh.
Go figure.
The fundamentals of the economy are strong. Mmmhm.
by emilylovesthedbacks on Nov 22, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
Babe Didrikson tried to compete with the guys way back when. Ann Meyers tried it in hoops. Jan Stevenson gave it a shot recently on the PGA tour. These gals where arguably the best women athletes in their fields.
I’m not trying to be sexist but the reality of it is that women are not as strong as men (on average) and that even among the “elite” women athletes (while Jan would kick my ass at golf and Ann could beat me in hoops) they can not compete with the “elite” guys.
I have no problem with the gals giving it a shot against the guys at all levels but biology will keep a large gap between the two sexes based on strength and performance.
If she can pitch then give her a shot but I really don’t see her ever becoming a Major League player.
Now, I don’t think that the best guys in gymnastics could compete with the best gals on the floor routine but that’s just my opinion.
Except
that many baseball skills are not predetermined by strength. Add in the fact that women obviously can play at a high level for softball, why can’t these skills translate to baseball? You can’t tell me a for average hitting, high on-base infielder couldn’t be a woman.
You keep on rowin', and I'll keep on smilin'.
Way differnent dimensions. Kinda like golf where the elite women still play from the ladies tees ( see Jan Stevenson). When she switched to the men’s tees she just wasn’t strong enough to play those longer holes or constantly make those longer shots with a 3 wood while the guys were using 6 irons.
Except
you don’t need to be strong enough to hit home runs (the longer holes of baseball, if you will) to be successful. Getting on base isn’t gender-specific, and neither is running the bases, two big components to a healthy offense. I’m not arguing a team of this type of player, but you could sprinkle in some with power hitters and probably have a pretty good system.
You keep on rowin', and I'll keep on smilin'.
Except that many baseball skills are not predetermined by strength
Not all, but I think maybe more than some suspect. The relevant male strength advantage isnt so much the “offensive lineman, pancake your opponent into the ground” variety. In baseball, it’s manifested in arm strength, which I’m guessing precludes 99% of elite woman athletes from playing seven MLB positions. Remember women play on a much smaller diamond. Strength’s also integral to running, jumping, diving – and hitting the ball out of the infield; indeed somewhat integral to the bat speed required to hit MLB pitching at all.
Baseball’s successful little guys, like Ichiro, Craig Counsell and Augie Ojeda dont look strong compared to Ryan Howard, but are extremely athletic and “strong” compared to women of similar size, and I find it unlikely that a woman would breakthrough at one of their defensive positions requiring a broad base of athletic skills. I agree with Jim that a woman would be more likely to succeed as a pitcher (and I would add, somehat counterintuitively, first base), not because those arent strength positions (they are) but because they require the narrowest traditional skillsets.
IOW, if a woman could master a devilish trick pitch, she wouldnt really need to also hit or field to justify an MLB roster spot. Similarly, if a woman could figure out how to reach base 45% of the time (I’m assuming with limited power), you might justify slapping an oversized mitt on her at first base, without her needing to master the additional, advanced skills required of other positions. Otherwise, I’m afraid a woman’s strength disadvantage becomes a glaring liability rather quickly.
why can’t these [softball] skills translate to baseball?
It’s not that the intrinsic skillsets dont naturally translate well – it’s more the skill levels. I think your question is roughly analagous to asking why class AA high school baseball “skills” (and corresponding stats) dont translate well to the majors. They do – it’s the levels that dont translate well.
Also, thanks to everyone for taking my initial cheeky response in the spirit in which it was intended. This is actually a fun topic and women’s athletic accomplishments over the last thirty years impress me sufficiently to believe a breakthrough is at least possible, if not imminent.
Finally, five points to Jim for managing to insert Jane Austen in a forum more predisposed towards Austin Kearns.
by Diamondhacks on Nov 20, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
The skill
level isn’t there yet because the instruction isn’t either. Obviously this isn’t a case of women joining professional baseball all in one fell swoop. Instead, there would have to be a systematic approach to teaching and training girls in baseball. The scenario of this or women contributing on the playing field in professional baseball is such a long way off, though, that it’s hard for us to imagine.
You keep on rowin', and I'll keep on smilin'.
The skill level isn’t there yet because the instruction isn’t either.
Let me ask you this. Is the absence of women basketball players in the NBA due to a lack of instruction or lack of athleticism? Is the absence of women in the world’s best track and field performances (ie times, heights, distances) due to a lack of instruction or relative lack of athleticism?
I’m not equating baseball with basketball, but suspect their relative athletic requirements are somewhat closer to one another than baseball v. auto racing, or baseball v. horse racing – two sports where select women do compete on par with men.
The girls on the USA softball team are superb athletes and train awfully hard, yet has anyone suggested an individual skillset remotely transferable to MLB? It would certainly seem lucrative to give it a whirl, if for nothing else but the publicity.
Let’s say China declared hardball as the new Nat’l Women’s Game tomorrow – 10 million girls play every day, under grueling conditions. The elite girls receive world class instruction, from people like Bobby Valentine and Tom House. What do you think the result would be? I’m getting the impression you think maybe we’d get a few second basemen, or a slap hitting centerfielder out of it? My view is they’d develop the best women players in the world, none of whom would merit inclusion on a single major league roster.
What I think is more likely is a woman from outside the US (and maybe even outside the influence of traditional baseball instruction), developing a unique, repetitve skill that could be very narrowly applied on the diamond to competitive advantage. The 16year old knuckleballer from Japan is one example. Maybe there’s an Asian tribe of girls who swat elusive fireflies with banyan branches. My point is that girls who receive traditional baseball instruction (ie the same as male counterparts) will always be at a daunting “natural” disadvantage, and that select women may be more apt to break through the glass ceiling via a revolution of method, than in a wholesale increase of instruction.
Finally, to touch on a reference Jim made to Jackie Robinson, I think a qualified woman in the majors would be greeted in an enthusiastic, overwhelmingly positive way in this country. This isnt 1987, let alone 1967 or 1947.
by Diamondhacks on Nov 21, 2008 1:47 AM EST up reply actions
I already
touched on this, but it’s unlikely that a woman would break into the NBA for two reasons: 1) there already is an WNBA, so players would be encouraged to go to their “right” league. 2) and more importantly, basketball overwhelming rewards physical traits that men have an advantage for. Sure, a small man can succeed in the NBA ever once and a while, but it’s become more of an exception.
And I think there would be some backlash if a woman joined MLB, though certainly not on the same level of Jackie Robinson. The two events are polar opposites that it’s almost not worth comparing.
You keep on rowin', and I'll keep on smilin'.
Fair points
I think that even an ‘elite’ woman would definitely be hard pushed to compete with an ‘elite’ guy. But they don’t have to be ‘elite’ to reach the major leagues: just better than, say, Chris Burke or Edgar Gonzalez. Even at the time, I recall much discussion as to whether we might have been better off sending Jenny Finch to the mound, rather than Mr. Jenny Finch.
As noted above, I think a relief pitcher would be the most likely point of breakthrough, because there are ways to succeed there which do not require an overwhelming fastball. It may be that female muscles just are not physiologically capable of hitting or delivering a 90 mph fastball, perhaps only a mid-70’s one. As a hitter, that would be your death knell because that’s all you’d see; but as a pitcher, you can do very well if you have movement and control.
by Jim McLennan on Nov 20, 2008 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
For the purposes of gender discussion
I would include Chris Burke and Edgar Gonzalez within the definition of “elite” guy, in the sense they’re at the tippy top of a huge baseball labor pyramid, where 99.9% of men never make it to the majors. It’s funny to think of them that way, cuz they’re always defined relative to other MLBers, but Chris and Edgar are truly elite – and light years ahead of any female ballplayer on the horizon.
One obstacle to a woman’s breakthrough is that MLB (the “men’s game” if you will) isnt a static level of excellence that women can gradually reach, like a track & field distance or time, or the ability to dunk a basketball on a ten foot hoop. Baseball players keep getting better, so that MLB’s point of entry keeps moving higher. So much so that I believe the best women’s softball/hardball players of today, were they magically transported back in time, could’ve competed with major leaguers of a century ago. I think there’s evidence inside and outside of baseball to support that, including old-timers vital statistics (height, weight, age), playing experience, and the broader athletic progression of women over the past century, in sports like track, where today’s women often better the times of earlier male champions.
by Diamondhacks on Nov 22, 2008 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
It would be interesting
To see, for example, how many different men have been clocked in the 100m, with a time faster than the women’s mark of 10.49. I dunno where to find that info, but there were almost 1,200 players who appeared in the big-leagues last year.
by Jim McLennan on Nov 22, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmm....
Senior yr of HS, I was the fastest sprinter on the team, but my best time was 11.42s.
Granted, I’m just a little white guy.
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
The 10.49 is roughly equivalent
to the very top tier of boys’ HS times nationally. I’m guessing not fifty U.S. boys could run that and would be surprised if four or five hundred U.S. men could, regardless of age.
Of course, Flo-Jo (10.49) was about as much of a woman as I am.
by Diamondhacks on Nov 22, 2008 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that sounds about right.
For context, quick use of the Google Machine shows that the US high school boys record in the 100m was set this year, at 10.01s. At the Chandler Rotary Invitational, the largest single track meet in Arizona, the 100m winner my year was at 10.62; this year, it was 10.76 with wind. AIA’s website shows that the All-Time AZ 5A (top division) 100m record is still held by former Amphi High, UofA and NFL star Michael Bates — 10.34s.
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
Interesting point
[ Of course, Flo-Jo (10.49) was about as much of a woman as I am. ]
And the same goes for the top tier of East German and other Soviet satellite athletes who held the record previously. However, nor could it be said that the power surge of baseball in the 1990’s and early 2000’s – with which no woman, even “enhanced”, could have competed – was exactly natural. The drop off in HRs over the past couple of years has certainly helped to narrow the potential gap.
by Jim McLennan on Nov 23, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Indiana girl, family suing IHSAA about waiver rule to play baseball
The 14-year-old and her family have filed a federal lawsuit over an Indiana High School Athletic Association rule that prohibits the Bloomington South freshman from trying out for the high school baseball team because she is female. “In this day and age, a girl should have the opportunity to participate on an equal footing with the boys in high school sports and the IHSAA precludes that,” Tae Sture, one of the family’s attorneys, said Monday.
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