Brewers Fan With A Question
Hello Diamondback fans. I'm visiting from Brew Crew Ball because I was wondering about Bob Brenly (it seems he might be the lead candidate for our manager job).
What sort of consensus is there on the manager he was/is? Did he get lucky by having Johnson/Schilling in the same rotation? What happened in 04?
Any trends that you guys can remember like favoring vets over younger guys even if the vets aren't producing? Leaving pitches in too long/short?
Really, any insight you can share would be very appreciated.
Thank you very much for your time.
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Brenly....
all of the above….
stay away from our World Series over-rated muppet sidekick coach and Cub announcer.
Love the Dbacks…..but look at the line-up he had in ’01.
Brennaman could have coached 3rd that year and we still would have won…..understanding that Jim Henson give him time off to do so.
How could he lose the ball in the sun....he's from Mexico.
by Hoytsstash on
Oct 19, 2008 5:52 PM EDT
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do you have any examples why he wasn't good?
I untuck my shirt!
by Michael M on
Oct 19, 2008 6:06 PM EDT
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Are you
new here?
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
by DbacksSkins on
Oct 20, 2008 12:13 AM EDT
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He was good for the team at the time
With a lot of veteran players, it wasn’t a team that needed much in the way of guidance off the field. They knew what had to be done, and did it. Obviously, he is now longer a rookier manager, but I am not sure how he would cope with a team of youngsters. From what I recall – it was so long ago now! – I did quite like his in-game management, but as ‘stash mentions, when you have Schilling and Johnson pitching at their peak for you, there isn’t all that much management to be done in their starts!
by Jim McLennan on
Oct 20, 2008 12:01 PM EDT
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Agreed. It's not that he was necessarily a "bad" manager....
and this is not an indictment of his skills or lack thereof…..
He managed some future hall-of-famers and a bunch of All Stars during those years….
I guess he had never had the “challenge” of managing a team without such a potent line-up and veteran leadership……and when he did have that challenge..it appears….he didn’t fair so well…..
Hire Wally Backman.
How could he lose the ball in the sun....he's from Mexico.
by Hoytsstash on
Oct 20, 2008 3:21 PM EDT
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Well, then why didn't
Buck Showalter win a title in 2001?
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
by DbacksSkins on
Oct 21, 2008 2:40 AM EDT
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Errr....2000
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
by DbacksSkins on
Oct 21, 2008 2:40 AM EDT
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You could argue
That the 1999 incarnation under Buck was a better team than the 2001 one – the former won 100 games, eight more than the WS ones. I think Brenly was very lucky he didn’t have to face the 116-46 Mariners in the World Series. Such are the joys of the playoffs…once you reach there, it’s basically a crap-shoot.
by Jim McLennan on
Oct 21, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
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That Mariners team didn't have the pitching to win a World Series.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 21, 2008 4:52 PM EDT
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No.
Looking at the stats, they had the best all-around pitching numbers in the majors- best ERA, best WHIP, best save percentage, tied for most shutouts on the season. Their pitching staff was better than the Yankees, and, for the most part, it was the Mariners offense that kept them from the World Series.
We had Johnson and Schilling, but their staff was better on average than ours.
"And a note to self that we must tread carefully if we wish not to give gratuitous offense, and even more carefully if we do wish to give it."
-Stephen Fry
by kishi on
Oct 21, 2008 5:29 PM EDT
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If they had the pitching
To win more regular-season games than any team in almost a century, they certainly had the pitching to win four more in the World Series.
by Jim McLennan on
Oct 21, 2008 8:07 PM EDT
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Those pitchers were not aces.
They were very good, but not dominating enough to win playoff games.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 23, 2008 4:58 PM EDT
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In their ten playoff games, the Mariners pitching held the opposition to four or fewer runs seven times.
In those same ten games, the Mariners offense scored three or fewer runs six times. They only scored 39 runs total in the playoffs, and 14 of those runs came in their one win over the Yankees.
You really think it was the Mariners pitching that kept them from winning?
"And a note to self that we must tread carefully if we wish not to give gratuitous offense, and even more carefully if we do wish to give it."
-Stephen Fry
by kishi on
Oct 23, 2008 6:37 PM EDT
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Sorry
38 runs in ten games.
"And a note to self that we must tread carefully if we wish not to give gratuitous offense, and even more carefully if we do wish to give it."
-Stephen Fry
by kishi on
Oct 23, 2008 6:39 PM EDT
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Giving up 4 or 3 runs isn't going to get it done most of the time.
If you give up 4 or 3 runs that means you have to score 5 or 4 runs, which means that the opposing pitcher has to give that many runs up, and if you are giving up that many runs then you are either not in the playoffs or not going to win playoffs games.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 28, 2008 2:50 PM EDT
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Seriously?
Their offense couldn’t get more than two runs in half of their games, and you would still blame the pitching? Three runs in nine innings should not be an insurmountable task for a good offense. It should not be a goal that they fail at half the time.
"And a note to self that we must tread carefully if we wish not to give gratuitous offense, and even more carefully if we do wish to give it."
-Stephen Fry
by kishi on
Oct 28, 2008 3:05 PM EDT
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I guess
It was our pitching’s fault we were 82-80 this year, too.
by Azreous on
Oct 28, 2008 3:26 PM EDT
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Yeah it was their fault, because without them pitching as well as they did
we wouldn’t have gone 82-80.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 28, 2008 4:55 PM EDT
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Diamondbacks season ERA: 3.99
So they were giving up three to four runs a game, and they didn’t make the playoffs. That means it’s the pitching’s fault, right? That means the offense has to score four to five runs.
by Azreous on
Oct 28, 2008 5:26 PM EDT
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It is their fault.
If they would have pitched better, we would have had a better record.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 28, 2008 7:08 PM EDT
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Yes
It is the fault of the pitching staff that had the second best WHIP in the NL that we didn’t do better, not the fault of the offense that had the second fewest hits in the NL, or the defense that was ranked 13 out of 16 in fielding percentage.
"And a note to self that we must tread carefully if we wish not to give gratuitous offense, and even more carefully if we do wish to give it."
-Stephen Fry
by kishi on
Oct 28, 2008 7:21 PM EDT
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Well, for once, he's right.
After all, they could have performed at superhuman levels and our record would probably have improved. Damn it. Why didn’t they do that.
by Azreous on
Oct 29, 2008 1:20 AM EDT
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Taht's true
And it’s their job to beat the other pitcher- so our pitchers could have done a better job hitting, too.
Same goes for you, 2001 Mariners!
Wait, no.
"And a note to self that we must tread carefully if we wish not to give gratuitous offense, and even more carefully if we do wish to give it."
-Stephen Fry
by kishi on
Oct 29, 2008 2:56 AM EDT
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Let's put it this way.
They wouldn’t have beaten the 01 D’backs.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 29, 2008 8:19 PM EDT
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Yeah
Their offense probably wasn’t good enough to beat us.
"And a note to self that we must tread carefully if we wish not to give gratuitous offense, and even more carefully if we do wish to give it."
-Stephen Fry
by kishi on
Oct 29, 2008 11:02 PM EDT
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Their pitching wasn't going to beat Schilling and Johnson.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 30, 2008 3:01 PM EDT
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Or maybe it was the opposing team's pitching that shut them down.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 28, 2008 4:53 PM EDT
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So....
It’s the Mariners either lost because their pitching wasn’t good enough, or they lost because the opposing pitching was too good?
"And a note to self that we must tread carefully if we wish not to give gratuitous offense, and even more carefully if we do wish to give it."
-Stephen Fry
by kishi on
Oct 28, 2008 5:23 PM EDT
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Yeah,
it’s your job as the pitcher to outduel the guy your going up against.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 28, 2008 7:06 PM EDT
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Why does anyone care about Manny Ramirez or Barry Bonds or Albert Pujols or Babe Ruth, post-1920 anyway?
"And a note to self that we must tread carefully if we wish not to give gratuitous offense, and even more carefully if we do wish to give it."
-Stephen Fry
by kishi on
Oct 28, 2008 7:14 PM EDT
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You mean
that Yankees pitching staff that held the Dbacks to 37 runs in the 7 games of the World Series? (5.3 per game)
"If the government's nuclear football ever were to fall into the wrong hands, Chris Horton would be called upon to intercept it on behalf of the Pentagon." -Kissing Suzy Kolber
by DbacksSkins on
Oct 29, 2008 1:04 PM EDT
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I think it's been established
that Freddy Garcia can win a World Series game. And Jamie Moyer may yet do the same.
by Azreous on
Oct 23, 2008 7:35 PM EDT
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Don't see the logic here
Against the three other AL playoff teams, the 2001 Mariners went a combined 21-14, so it wasn’t as if that was a “hollow” 116-win season. Or are you suggesting that the Yankees, Indians and A’s somehow weren’t trying in the regular season, but the Mariners were?
by Jim McLennan on
Oct 23, 2008 7:36 PM EDT
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They were built for the regular season more so than the playoffs.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 28, 2008 2:41 PM EDT
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It's like arguing with foulpole
It was their offense that failed them in the playoffs in 2001.
"And a note to self that we must tread carefully if we wish not to give gratuitous offense, and even more carefully if we do wish to give it."
-Stephen Fry
by kishi on
Oct 28, 2008 2:48 PM EDT
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It's was their pitching that failed them in the playoffs in 2001.
If you want to win playoff games, try giving up only 2 runs or less.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 28, 2008 2:51 PM EDT
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That's right, kishi.
No one ever wins playoff games if they give up three or more runs.
by Azreous on
Oct 28, 2008 3:27 PM EDT
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If the offense isn't there, the pitching has to step up.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 28, 2008 4:56 PM EDT
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Managers are overrated
As long as they don’t burn the pitchers’ arms off, a la Dusty Baker, they really don’t ahve as much impact as some people would lead you to believe. Remember that Bob Melvin was Manager of the Year last year and many are calling for his head after this season. Managers are almost always a product of their players.
by AZSEAfan on
Oct 20, 2008 7:37 PM EDT
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In 04 that team had a million people with some sort of season ending surgery.
Maybe someone can get the numbers on those.
You just got Scherzered.
by damdrs1717 on
Oct 20, 2008 11:19 PM EDT
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I think because the Yankees did.
How could he lose the ball in the sun....he's from Mexico.
by Hoytsstash on
Oct 21, 2008 10:31 AM EDT
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Thank you guys for your thoughts.
I untuck my shirt!
by Michael M on
Oct 21, 2008 2:10 PM EDT
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'Hacks Two Cents
People remember the World Series, and I think there’s a fairly strong consensus that AZ bested the Yankees more in spite of Brenly’s strategies there, than because of them ( ie misusing Kim, Schilling,etc). Apart from that, a more general consensus on Brenly is tougher.
When he took over for Showalter, Bob famously threw Buck’s hefty rulebook in the trash and told players to “Play hard and be on time. That’s it.” Buck saw players more as skillsets or assets with which he could maximize output, primarily thru playing time and strategy, whereas Bob saw them more as people who needed to be individually managed and maximized. Bob was more of a cheerleader. Let Williams, Gonzo and Grace set the clubhouse tone, stroke Randy and Curt, and advocate for young pitchers like Kim, Prinz and Brohawn. Brenly didnt visit the mound as often as Showalter. He would give a kid the ball, say something demonstrative, and let him sink or swim. It bit him in Yankee Stadium, but I thought this approach with young pitchers during the season was a key to the team’s growth and ultimate success.
He had a rocky relationship with Ruby Durazo, who never seemed to play as often as his talent warranted. Also, his heavy usage of BK Kim and Oscar Villareal (2003) may have contributed to their subsequent declines.
I’m not convinced Bob is a particularly gifted manager, but he’s terrific with people and I suspect would be a managerial step up from anyone the Brewers have had recently :-)
by Diamondhacks on
Oct 21, 2008 2:49 PM EDT
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that makes me feel better than before.
thanks!
I untuck my shirt!
by Michael M on
Oct 24, 2008 5:08 PM EDT
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