Worst trade?

by nihil67 on Jan 2, 2007 2:43 PM EST Comment 31 comments

As I sit and churn waiting for any drop of news on the Johnson deal, I wonder what everyone else would view as the worst deal in Diamondbacks history. I would have put a more positive poll, but I don't know who would have voted against the Gonzo for Garcia trade :) I guess some people would have voted for the trade bringing Chris Young here... maybe.

Poll

Worst trade ever?

Jeff Suppan for Cash

4 votes

J. De La Rosa, Capuano, Spivey, Counsell, Moeller, and Overbay for Sexson, Shane Nance, and Noochie Varner

51 votes

Dioner Navarro and Beltran Perez for Shawn Green

2 votes

John Patterson for Randy Choate

14 votes

Erubiel Durazo for Elmer Dessens

2 votes

Byung-Hyun Kim for Shea Hillenbrand

4 votes

Vladimir Nunez, Brad Penny, and Abraham Nunez for Matt Mantei

8 votes

Troy Glaus and Sergio Santos for Miguel Batista and Orlando Hudson

1 votes

Felix Rodriguez for Troy Brohawn and Chris Van Rossum

2 votes

88 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 31 comments

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Comments

I voted for the sexon trade ...

... but I found myself really wishing we had patterson still.

by Mister T in AZ on Jan 2, 2007 5:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

hmmmm

Dont know what to vote for....

2001 W.S. champs, Go D-backs L.A.= Lost Again

by flyingdutchman on Jan 2, 2007 11:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I voted for

the Kim trade we should have kept kim. We have not had a good closer since him.

lets forget the two games he blew in 01, we are still the 2001 world series champions.

"That god damned Dutchman (Honus Wagner) is the only man in the game I can't scare." -Ty Cobb

by flyingdutchman on Jan 3, 2007 12:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

BK Kim is still a pitching liability!

Dr. Flyingdutchman:

Put down the Korean Kool Aide. I think the Red Sox made a bad deal for him when they traded Shea to us. We still got the worst end of the previous trade when we basically let Schilling go to the Bosox for all their tired and worthless arms. Only use was from Brandon Medders. All else was insignificant.

By the way, had BK Neidenfurer not given up both leads in successive nights, the Dbacks would have been home with a 4 and 1 record and still live to tell Yankee fan to shut up!

Bk can keep robbing the Rockheads of their pitching rotation and a significant loot. BK doesn't have to wear a ski mask to be robbing the Rockhead coffuers.

livestrong; wear yellow; the truth is out there; "it may not be true, but accurate", talking boob Dan Rather; "bababooey to you all!" HS fan.

by icecoldmo on Jan 3, 2007 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yes but

If your a pitcher at coors then your bound to be bad and lets face it Shea was only with us for 1 and a half seasons and did good in 2004 (.310 avg, .348 OBP) but what was the use when Tracy was to take over for him anyways.

And now look, we have not had a decent closer since and Kim could have been are franchise closer.

"That god damned Dutchman (Honus Wagner) is the only man in the game I can't scare." -Ty Cobb

by flyingdutchman on Jan 3, 2007 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kool Aid

Put down the 2001 World Series video.

Does this look like a fair trade?:
27-yr-old with a career OPS+ of ~100 who can not play any position at an acceptable MLB level. He is making $2.6mm, about to escalate to the $3mm to $6mm range over the next couple of years.

traded straight up for. . .

24-yr-old with a career EPS+ of ~150 primarily as a reliever. He is making $3.4mm on his way to $6-$7mm the next year.

If I had the first guy, I couldn't get him shipped out fast enough. If I had the pitcher, I wouldn't even take that call.

Kim is still a good 4 or 5 and at 28, I believe still has a chance to be a good 3.

Shea is lucky the Angels are dumb enough to sign him. He is a sub-100-OPS+ guy who can't play in the field - making him a DH with no power.

Dumb trade. Interestingly, Kim has failed to perform at his pre-trade level while She HAS. So it really is a wash. . . which doesn't even approach "worst trade ever".

SPB

by stephen on Jan 8, 2007 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I went kinda odd here ...

I went for Dioner Navarro and Beltran Perez for Shawn Green. My thought process, beyond the fact that we got Shawn Green when he was notably on the decline, and had started to become a little bit of a fit giver following his decision to take Yam Kippar (my apologizes to our Jewish friends if I killed the spelling on that) off during a playoff race. I fully believe in freedom to practice religion, but honestly, every player of a religious background sacrifices something in the course of the season.

But, next off, we only really acquired Navarro to pass him off to the Dodgers, and Jim before has mentioned that anyone in the Yankees farm system was available to us ... including Chin Ming Wang. I don't feel too bad about Perez considering what his season looked like with Washington this year, but I've been known to change my mind about those sort of things ...

"Pepper needs new shorts!"

by npineda on Jan 3, 2007 5:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Well,

that requires analyzing the Yankees trade to get Navarro along with the Green trade. I think on straight-up action on the trade, nothing much can compare with Patterson for Choate, even with the massive support Sexson-for-everyone is getting (try to remember, he wasn't certain to get hurt).

by andrewinnewyork on Jan 3, 2007 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Man, there are some stinkers there...

I'm with Andrew, and went Choate/Patterson. The Sexson trade turned out awful, but we weren't to know he'd get injured, and though we traded a lot of players for him, most of them were spare parts of little or no use to the team. Patterson has since turned into a good starting pitcher, something we could definitely have used, even if he missed most of this year through injury. The one that brought Shawn Green here wasn't brilliant, but what really hurt was the contract extension, rather than the deal.

As for Kim, he was only paid $1.25m by the Rockies last year, which is extremely cheap even for a #4 starter. I still think he'd be best suited as a closer though, and those two World Series games aside, he was very, very good in Arizona. His ERA+ was 140 during his time with us - to put that into perspective, it's better than Brandon Webb (139), and is beaten only by Johnson and Schilling among pitchers who've thrown more than 125 innings for the D'backs. [Interestingly, I note Brandon Medders, at 102 IP, has an ERA+ of 151... Be nice to keep him...]

by Jim McLennan on Jan 3, 2007 1:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hmm

I almost voted for Patterson/Choate as well. In the end I had to evaluate how I felt about the trades at the time they happened and then compare that to how I feel about them now.

Patterson/Choate was a mostly nothing for mostly nothing at that point. Patterson was the Nippert of today. I really didn't see him ever pulling it together. He looked scared every time he took the mound.

On the other hand, Capuano gave no indication that he couldn't hack it. Everything he did in 03 gave me hope. Likewise, Overbay looked to be on his way. I was really disappointed in that trade at the time and it just got worse at it went along. Turned into an easy choice when I looked at it that way.

by nihil67 on Jan 4, 2007 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't disagree

Hi! Ben,

I agree, this was an abysmal trade.

But I find myself leaning toward the trade of F-Rod. Just a smidge more patience from Showalter with that converted catcher could have prevented the panicked trade by Joe Jr. & Co. for (and subsequent overpaying to) the so-called closer known as "Ice Man".

Wouldn't it be nice to still have Penny and Patterson in our rotation? (not that they would both still be here today. . . but we should have had several more years from each of them)

SPB

by stephen on Jan 8, 2007 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A good point

Patterson does involve a little 20/20 hindsight. Overbay and Capuano did not.

by andrewinnewyork on Jan 4, 2007 4:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

hindsight

I respectfully disagree, Andrew - the Patterson/Choate trade was dumb up front. At the time of the trade, Patterson was 26 and thought to be a solid (i.e. at least league average, probably slightly better) starter with some injury risk. Choate was 28 and fully acknowledged to be nothing more than a league-average LOOGY.

League average starter > league average LOOGY. By a wide margin.

To trade them even-up was just stupid (on the part of the team receiving the LOOGY).

As for which trade was the worst ever - it's a great question and I'm still trying to reach a decision. One thing I know - Glaus/Santos for Batista/Hudson isn't even in the same galaxy as the others. I liked it at the time and still do.

The trade for Sexson was something of a salary dump. Remember the stupid contract Counsell was given - something like $3mm? His original signing was a stretch for me at $1.5mm, but he earned it. $2.5mm the next year was overpaying him. $3mm+ the next was stupid.

I'm still thinking. . .

SPB

by stephen on Jan 8, 2007 9:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Patterson

Don't forget that I'm the one saying it was the worst trade to begin with. I'm just agreeing with Ben that Patterson has out-performed expectations by a wider margin than Overbay and Capuano. Even at the time it was clearly boneheaded, but not necessarily worst-ever status.

by andrewinnewyork on Jan 9, 2007 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yet

What we received in return does involve hindsight. I loved Sexson at the time: an underrated high slg% aand OBP guy. I didn't like the trade, but when we gave up Patterson, we gave him up for nothing. I hated that trade at the time. Hated it. There was nothing to show that Choate would be any good and there were some glimpses to show that Patterson might well be a 2-3 starter one day.

by johngordonma on Jan 4, 2007 5:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

oops

Hi! John,

Before I wrote my extended post above, I should have read a little further and just said "ditto" to your post.

spb

SPB

by stephen on Jan 8, 2007 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I am

surprised that no one has mentioned this one. The worst trade in history is the deal sending Schilling to Boston. Awful deal in every single aspect.

by ReLaunch on Jan 4, 2007 6:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

c'mon you don't like casey fossum?

by andrewinnewyork on Jan 4, 2007 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thought about it

I actually had that one on the list, but I took it off at the last minute. In hindsight, I should have left it on. For some reason I remembered Schilling demanding the trade... subsequent research shows that I may be wrong. It was a fairly necessary salary dump at the time though. And not nearly as poor as the Choate or Sexson trades, IMO.

Brandon Lyon has worked out ok... no? :)

by nihil67 on Jan 4, 2007 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Awful trade

I'm new to this site so hello to all. Arizona wanted Soriano and Nick Johnson from the Yanks but settled on the shit on a stick they received from Boston.

by ReLaunch on Jan 4, 2007 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

True, but

Remember that Schilling had a no-trade clause. In fact, for a while, the only team he would agree to a trade to was the Phillies. He only added Boston when he found out they were hiring Terry Francona. It was a bad trade, I don't disagree, but there were a lot of circumstances. Like I said, I should have kept it on the list. Oh well.

by nihil67 on Jan 4, 2007 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He said

he would go to 3 teams, Phillies, Boston, and the Yanks. They could have gotten alot better package from anyone of those teams than what they got.

by ReLaunch on Jan 4, 2007 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

From your lips to God's ears. . .

If the package you are going to claim AZ could have received from Philly is anything like your claim that AZ should have received Soriano and Nick the stick. . . well, that's just preposterous.

There was never any possibility the Dbacks would receive anything approaching Soriano and Johnson for a 'salary dump' of Schilling. Ever.

(Schilling was set to make $12mm in '04. Soriano made $5.4mm in '04. Johnson made $1.25mm in '05. The spare parts AZ received in this salary dump made the league minimum. THAT's what you get in a salary dump.)

SPB

by stephen on Jan 8, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

OK, I finally voted

The Sexson trade always struck me as misguided, but we just weren't giving up that much, so it isn't "worst" material.

Shawn Green? Yeah, that was pathetic. Besides a ridiculous contract that overpaid the guy by monumental proportions, AZ also blocked two of its best prospects in Quentin and C Gonzo. But the damage is minimized because AZ is only out a couple of marginal players and a bunch of cash.

Patterson for Choate? Yeah, abysmal - as I noted above.

Durazo for Dessens and cash? Pretty bad and I hated it the moment I heard it. . . although I subsequently heard the org didn't like Ruby's use of PEDs, so came to hate this one a little less.

Kim for Shea - as noted above, awful but hasn't worked out that way.

Penny, et al for Mantei - a panic-induced trade of excellent, inexpensive talent for an overpaid fastball of limited use.

Glaus? Pretty good trade on both ends. meh.

F-Rod? I hate this one. HATE. (as noted above)

Selling Suppan for cash? Why? REALLY awful.

In the end, my three worst are

Patterson
F-Rod
Penny

SPB

by stephen on Jan 8, 2007 11:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Meh?

"Glaus? Pretty good trade on both ends. meh."

You Josh Byrnes apologists need to wake up and realize that we got hosed on that one. Yeah, Hudson worked out last year, but taking Batista was a bad idea.

And everyone's argument to me that you can't get pitching prospects when you're dumping salary was just proven wrong by Brian Cashman and Josh Byrnes in the Randy trade.

by nihil67 on Jan 9, 2007 9:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

JB apologists?

Hi! Ben,

Wow.

So. . . if we don't agree, we resort to name-calling? Sheesh - chill out.

Glaus was a waste of money from the moment AZ signed him - I have consistently said that. Interestingly, I have ALWAYS been a Glaus fanboy. But AZ had limited resources and a perfectly servicable 3Bman making near league-minimum and under control for quite a while. There were gaping holes at 1B, SS and CF. So we sign 3B Glaus to a 4 yr/$45mm contract?!?!

Brilliant.

To resolve this redundancy, the declining Glaus and his $11mm/yr liability is sent to Toronto along with failed prospect Santos. We receive a) the best 2006 starter we had that was not named Webb (I would suggest that the fact that Batista logged 200+ innings of 104 ERA+ helped our 2006 bullpen suck a lot less than it did, a not-inconsequential benefit of this trade); and b) a 2Bman who admittedly gave us a lower level of D than expected (but still good) but a higher level of O. (a 100 OPS+ from a good-fielding 2B is well-above-average)

And we save $4mm/yr - resources that were redeployed into other, bullpen-saving moves (not the least of which was DFA-ing Ortiz).

If I was to resort to similar name-calling, I would accuse you of being a Moorad/Joe Jr. "apologist."

Instead, I simply recognize that you judge the trade differently than I - for reasons that are not entirely clear to me but that I am 100% confident are perfectly legitimate in your view.

As much as I love Glaus, I still see this trade as "advantage AZ" or, at worst, a wash.

I nonetheless remain interested in your rationale for believing it is anything approaching the "worst trade".

SPB

by stephen on Jan 9, 2007 10:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

YeeHa

I forgot that everyone here thinks that perennial 115+ OPS+ batters grow on trees and Eric Byrnes is the greatest baseball player ever. This was a trade from a weakness (3B and RHB) (Tracy needs to be moved to 1st or left for good... that leaves... Brian Barden?) to a strength. I have no problem with Hudson, but he wasn't needed. This team would have done exactly the same with Drew at short and Counsell at 2nd all year.

The trade was made worse by the follow-up trade for Callaspo. He came in blocked unless the plan is to move him to 3rd. That plan is blocked by Tracy being unable to move to the OF or 1B. Pretty silly if you ask me.

Pretty sad that the 2nd best pitcher on our team last year was just barely above league average, no? I'd actually contend that Edgar Gonzalez was the 2nd best starter on the team, albeit with a shorter stint.

Otherwise, I had enough of this argument last off-season. You don't have to vote for it.

by nihil67 on Jan 9, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Eric Byrnes? Huh?

You lost me, Ben.

Moreover, I never said "115+ OPS batters grow on trees". They are indeed valuable. But having 8 of them that can play nothing but 3B makes no sense.

As for Counsell vs. Hudson - there is no comparison, offensively or defensively. Counsell is a shadow of his former self at the plate - a huge downgrade from Hudson. Defensively, Counsell is showing his age. Still one of the most intelligent players in the game. Still great hands and a good arm. But his range is what you would expect from a 35-year-old and nothing close to Hudson.

Maybe this will help explain my view. . . and
I bet we disagree on this, too:
I didn't like the Grace signing from day one. Three million dollars that didn't need to be spent or should have been spent filling another position. First base was well-manned by Durazo and Colbrunn.

Where we DO agree, apparently, is that it IS sad that the second-best AZ starter last year was about league average. Actually, I'd argue that Livan was 2nd best, not Edgar. . . but we are doing little more than rearranging deck chairs. Any way you look at it, the rotation last year was weak, putting stress on the bullpen that it could not handle.

All of which brings us back to why the 2007 rotation MUST be improved. I think it has been, but that's a topic for another diary.

I still don't understand how you see the Glaus trade as anything close to "worst" like Patterson, Overbay, Penny or whatever. But I get the feeling you are too frustrated with me to spend any more time discussing it.

I apologize for whatever I did that caused that.

Best regards,

SPB

by stephen on Jan 9, 2007 8:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

salary dumps

<<And everyone's argument to me that you can't get pitching prospects when you're dumping salary was just proven wrong by Brian Cashman and Josh Byrnes in the Randy trade.>>

Ummm. . . I think Randy's a little old to be considered a "prospect" any longer.

SPB

by stephen on Jan 9, 2007 10:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs